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Interclue and What Going Proprietary Can Do
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Mon Dec 29, 2008 01:24 PM
from the don't-get-greedy dept.
from the don't-get-greedy dept.
Linux.com (which shares a corporate overlord with Slashdot) has an interesting look at what going proprietary can mean for your overall effectiveness. Using Firefox extension "Interclue" as the object lesson, the piece looks at both the engineering and social difficulties surrounding the project. "Even more significantly, the efforts to commercialize only detract from the software itself. The basic idea behind Interclue would make for a handy Web utility, but seems too slight to build a business around. The effort to do so only leads to complications that do nothing to enhance the basic utility, and to pleas for donations that can only annoy. The result is that, if your position on free software doesn't lead you to avoid Interclue, the efforts to monetize it almost certainly will."
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Isn't this cherry picking? (Score:5, Insightful)
After all, OS_X is the merging of proprietary and open source as well.
I think this current example presented the way it has is a bit propagandistic.
Both OSS and Proprietary have their virtues and vices, and it's a question of the project manager's competence whether or not a project brings out more of the former or the latter.
I also agree (Score:4, Insightful)
Slashdot does have a tendency to spin everything into a "TEH FOSS IZ TEH ONLE SULUZION!!!11!!" direction, and to either distort stories, or select cherry picked stories.
The truth is, to which I agree with the OP on this, that every single idea isn't something to build a business around. Kind of like web browsers- it's perfectly acceptable to me, and millions of other computer users throughout the world, that anyone making an OS would view that as a feature to be bundled. And yet... teh FOSSies still can't forgive MS for competing with their beloved Netscape, no matter how horrible that browser (and company) was in reality.
However... there actually ARE ideas which are not only economically viable, but will thrive as a commercial enterprise. Would you REALLY trust a FOSS tax program? I wouldn't. Would you trust a FOSS app which converts documents to PDF? Sure!
Both software models have their place. The sad fact is, there are zealots on both sides who are more interested in commercial vs. free than in using the right tool for the right job. It's always seemed to me that the FOSSie outcry over commerical software was really just their justification for MS hatred, rather than opposition to commerical software- that's why Slashdot grants Apple their "most favored monopoly" status, despite the fact that Apple is not just a commerical product company... but is so with brutally impunity.
Parent
Re:I also agree (Score:4, Insightful)
The question should really be, would you *really* trust a program that nobody could audit?
Parent
Re:I also agree (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know if "trust" is the right word. Both programs can contain errors. The product with a guarantee to cover your ass if the error lands you in trouble with the IRS is the one that I'd be most likely to go with.
Which sounds better:
A) Saving a fifty dollars on a piece of tax software, and an audit from the IRS lands you a hefty fine plus interest on the amount that was really owed
OR
B) Spending fifty dollars on a piece of tax software, and an audit from the IRS lands you a hefty fine plus interest on the amount that was really owed that is paid for by the company that made the tax software?
While FOSS has its place, there are times when going with the proprietary solution has more inherit value. The best solution in the above situation is a FOSS product that will cover any expense incurred due to an error in the software, but in the real world a project like that would die after the first bug.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What does this have to do with tax software? A business could certainly offer paid indemnification even while giving away the software under a F/OSS license. I won't guarantee that it's a successful business model -- I haven't tried it -- but there's nothing inherent to the business or the software which prevents this approach.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The software and the insurance are two separate things. The fact that your tax software was closed source has nothing to do with the guarantee that it doesn't contain known errors.
This is an opportunity for OSS vendors: they could offer guaranteed patches, an SLA even. For a small fee, they could compensate you for when things go wrong. Come to think of it, this is what vendors are already doing, along with insurance companies.
The inherent value is not in that it's closed source, but in the company backing
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If the IRS are setting the rules, then they should be supplying the software that complies with their rules, and open sourcing it while maintaining control of official builds would make a lot of sense.
Also, do any proprietary vendors actually guarantee their products? Most proprietary software comes with absolutely no warrantee, same as open source does, is tax software sold differently?
And what's to stop a third party auditing an open source tax program, and offering you a certified build of it with a guar
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Which sounds better:
I have a better one for you.
Which sounds better:
A) Saving $200 and using Linux, where you have a bug that causes it to eat all your data, and you lose all of your work.
OR
B) Spending $200 on Windows, and when it has a bug that causes it to eat your data, Microsoft pays someone to re-create the work for you.
It's pretty obvious which one is better. It's just as obvious which one is pure fantasy.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I also agree (Score:4, Interesting)
teh FOSSies still can't forgive MS for competing with their beloved Netscape
The problem was that MS used anti-competitive measures to hurt Netscape's market share and promote I.E.
Would you REALLY trust a FOSS tax program?
Yes, we would trust it if, say, a company such as H&R Block had the code analyzed and was able to certify its accuracy.
that's why Slashdot grants Apple their "most favored monopoly" status
The editors? Maybe. The commentators? ... I generally see about a ratio of 4 anti-fanboi posts to 1 Apple fanboi post when Apple comes up in discussion. In fact, I am noticing that there are more people complaining about Slashdot nowadays, but the posters they complain about seem to be harder to find...
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, we would trust it if, say, a company such as the IRS had the code analyzed and was able to certify its accuracy.
There, fixed that for you. Frankly, given H&R's reputation as an audit-magnet (due to their aggressive deductions), I'd be more wary of something that they endorsed, not less.
Re: (Score:2)
You do know netscape was more anti-competitive than microsoft right?
They were so arrogant they were trying to remake the entire industry around themselves.
Re:I also agree (Score:4, Insightful)
Whereas Microsoft already had: that's the point. In this context anti-competitive doesn't mean "aiming for lock-in" but "exploiting overwhelming market dominance in one field to unfairly gain overwhelming market dominance in another". In a world where nearly everyone bought Windows, bundling a browser with it for "free" (i.e. not allowing the consumer to choose not to pay that portion) meant that even if the competitor's product were completely free it would still have to be considerably better and well marketed to gain mindshare. That's as competitive as putting me up against Usain Bolt in the 100m: no matter how arrogant I am, my best hope is for him to be struck by lightning.
Parent
Re:I also agree (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem was that MS used anti-competitive measures to hurt Netscape's market share and promote I.E.
That rationale came after the BSOD-fueled MS hatred.
I generally see about a ratio of 4 anti-fanboi posts to 1 Apple fanboi post when Apple comes up in discussion.
It has definitely changed quite a bit this year. Go back a couple of years and any negative remark about Apple would earn you a lesson. From what I've observed, this goes in cycles. Early on Slashdot was very anti-Microsoft. Stories would be twisted (misleading headlines, for example...) to get the pitchforks a'wavin against MS. It was all fun for a while, but Windows 2000 came out and over time people started to adopt it. With the BSOD virtually extinct and the main stability issues addressed, the tired jokes were getting... old. Eventually these people earned mod-points and general opinions on Slashdot started to balance a bit. The main difference? Back then you could say that Windows didn't support color graphics and get modded as informative for it. After the backlash you had to be a lot more careful about what claims you made.
So what does this have to do with Apple? Right about the time the iPod came out, Apple was pretty highly regarded around here. I might have my timing wrong. Maybe it was OSX running on BSD. Eh, I dunno, I didn't pay that much attention to the Apple stories. Any criticism would land you in trouble. I remember a story where a dude stuffed a PC into an iMac case. I made a joke like "It'll be the first time a Mac ever saw GTA!" and.. blammo, troll. (As I recall, the moderation went back up after I explained it was a joke.) Apple was riding high up until the iPhone came out. I'm not sure what precisely happened here. I remember the iPhone was actually well receieved, but maybe it was a case of too many silly iPhone stories soured people. (I wouldn't rule out a bit of envy, too. I was guilty of this. I was stuck in a contract, couldn't get one, so I'd crack jokes at its expense.) I dunno, I think the real turning point was the people waiting in line at that store for no apparent reason close to the launch of the iPhone 3G. Turns out they had a reason for being there, but by the time that was discovered a good time had already been had at their expense. So more anti-iPhone stuff. Anti-iPhone leads to anti-Mac, and so on. (Not that the Air was an underrated machine...) Well that's died down and we're starting to see s'more balance.
A couple of years ago I predicted that 2007 would be the year Google became Slashdot's villain. Well, that hasn't happened yet, but I'm starting to see signs of it. Then after the hate comes out, people will step up and even things out, then on to the next big bad guy.
I personally would like to see what effect removing Slashdot's moderation system would have on fanboyism.
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Re: (Score:2)
Slashdot grants Apple their "most favored monopoly" status
'Cause they aren't a monopoly? The closest they come to monopoly status would be in music/media players - a field with very healthy competition and hundreds of choices.
Re:I also agree (Score:5, Insightful)
Odd that Slashdot (or Linux.com I guess) needed to look at Interclue to see what going proprietary does for you.
Why not give us detailed report on the history of VA Linux->VA Software->Sourceforge? No third party needed. You start a company to build servers that run Linux and do well. Then you buy up Andover to get various FOSS scene web sites to generate buzz. Change your company name a few times just in case anyone is following you.
Decide to IPO at $30/share. None other than the great economist Eric S. Raymond tells us it is a can't miss proposition winner, he being hired to act as the company's Open Source mouthpiece and keep them comitted to the principals or openness and sharing and the like. Everybody cheers your big IPO and sees it as proof that money can be made while staying Open. Stock price like $300+.
Before the cheers die down you find out can no longer make go of it in the server market so you try to sell proprietary software. Release a proprietary version of the previously OSS Sourceforge, form the OSDN then promtly kick out K5 and, again, throw in a name change to OSTG.
Again find out that your business model doesn't work, sell your flagship product, Sourceforge, to CollabNet.
Best I can tell the company is now "leader in IT community-driven media and e-commerce", which I think means it sells ads and trinkets. Stock price last I checked was in the $0.85 range.
So anyway, I don't see why they needed to go study Interclue.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
After all, OS_X is the merging of proprietary and open source as well.
True, but i tend not to have any proprietary extensions on my default profile because i don't trust them to not sell my data to 3rd parties, in fact I'm fairly sure that's what they do do to make money. Also with interclue specifically it just didn't seam worth the effort running when i can just open the tab then close it if its not what i want without any potential privacy risk.
Both OSS and Proprietary have their virtues and vices
What exactly are the virtues of proprietary software? It seams to me that it has to be your forced to do something you may not wan
Re: (Score:2)
What exactly are the virtues of proprietary software? It seams to me that it has to be your forced to do something you may not want to. want to use an ipod? Got to use itunes! want to use OS X? Got to use expensive mac hardware! want to work with people using the latest version of office? Got to use the latest version of office! If proprietary software has virtues why bother with lock-in, surely it could compete by itself on a level playing field?
Proprietary software can compete on a level playing field. Just look at SubEthaEdit [codingmonkeys.de]. Where's the lock-in there? Its a text editor - no proprietary formats at all. Yet, it manages to compete by making things like collaborative editing significantly easier than its competitors, both free and proprietary.
Same thing with all the software you've listed. No one's forcing you to use an iPod, a Mac or even the latest version of Office. There are competing MP3 players, competing computer systems, and OpenOffic
Re: (Score:2)
It's not even cherry picking. The article doesn't go into any more depth than the summary does, Now word of what the complications causd by it being commercial are. As far as I can tell, they're just pissy they don't have source code for it.
OSX might be a bad counter example to use though, since OSX has a fee associated with it, and giving a program away for free and selling it for cash are two entirely different business models, open source works for one much better than the other.
Definition time. (Score:4, Informative)
Angel capital is money invested in a business to provide equity capital, not debt which must be repaid regardless of the success of the business. More often than not angel investments are combination of funds and the business expertise of the investor(s). Angel investment transactions are made with the expectation of a very large financial return to the investor per dollar invested if the business succeeds. Angel investments are also made with the expectation of psychological rewards for the investors. These are obtained from their personal contributions to the growth of the business, time and business expertise. The investment decision is thus both financial and personal. Risk and reward take a more complex form than in almost any other financial transaction. It is risk and rewards.
what the fuck is this? (Score:5, Insightful)
What's with the incoherent summary? Nowhere in the summary did this even mention what "Interclue" was supposed to do, and why we should care about attempts to "monetize" it (lame corporate speak when applied outside the finance world).
Editors must be sleepwalking through the end of '08.
Re:what the fuck is this? (Score:4, Funny)
Only the end? :)
Parent
Re:what the fuck is this? (Score:5, Funny)
Clearly the editors were all replaced by small perl scripts at the beginning of '08. Possibly earlier.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Merry Christmas, Slashdot-reading humans! We are enjoying our holidays and have decided to let twitter pose as an editor during this period. Normal service will be resumed when we have sobered up.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I guess you were supposed to move the cursor over the link and pause, waiting for a preview of the linked article to appear, and read it. Maybe the /. editor is subtly promoting the usage of a proprietary Firefox expansion!! [/conspiracy theory]
Re:what the fuck is this? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a great marketing strategy, really. Post some blurb about some product no one has heard of--and make it's dilemma known to an audience with a broad interest around such problems, and a potential interest in said products.
sheepishly, the intrigued masses walk into the clutches of the marketers to find out more about this company, and what it does.
I hate marketing.
Parent
forked review (Score:3, Insightful)
If the a lack of a Creative Commons license for linux.com content doesn't lead you to avoid the website, their efforts to indoctrinate you certainly will...
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Fuck CC. They need to use the GFDL license. They can monetize by selling tshirts and coffee cups at their concerts.
history repeating itself (Score:5, Insightful)
Software history tends to repeat itself. I remember back in the 1980s, when software distributed on floppy disks often had copy protection. Legitimate users voted with their feet, because it was too much of a nuisance -- e.g., you couldn't back up your software. Software houses eventually got the message and stopped doing it. Now, a generation later, we seem to be going through the same silliness again, except that now they call it DRM.
Similar deal with these little proprietary pieces of crapware. Back in the 90s, there was a period when the internet had gained quite a bit of mindshare, but OSS hadn't. During that time, you'd get people posting lots of trivial little pieces of software on the web, with various schemes intended to extract some small amount of money from the customer: nagware, adware, shareware, crippleware, ... That whole scene was a total dead end. In most cases, programmers found that the amount of revenue they got was essentially zero; this was the users indicating that although the software was somewhat useful to them, it wasn't useful enough to pay money for. Then OSS started getting popular, and most clueful users started to realize that it was a better way to go. Now we have some new software platforms -- firefox+xul, browser+ajax, and the iPhone -- and everyone seems to need to learn the same lesson all over again. At some point, the users who didn't go through this in the 90s are going to realize some of the same things. They're going to realize that spending $5 or $10 on lots of little pieces of software will eventually add up to real money. They're going to realize that it's a hassle to have to keep track of all the software, registration numbers, etc. They're going to realize that it's no fun to have to go back and reproduce this whole set of proprietary apps every time they buy new hardware.
firefox+xul? (Score:2)
Does anybody really write applications using XUL?
Re:firefox+xul? (Score:4, Informative)
Does anybody really write applications using XUL?
Miro [getmiro.com] is one.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
...and songbird is the other.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
...and songbird is the other.
And CeltX [celtx.com] and chatzilla [hacksrus.com] and NVU [net2.com] and Cyclone3 [cyclone3.org]...
If you are going to sell it cheap, make it free. (Score:5, Interesting)
This is actually true. I have a Linux site and a Windows site and the Windows site is filled with a couple of cheap apps that I wrote and the Linux site is all GPL free stuff. I've found that the Linux site actually makes me more money off of advertising revenues and I can leverage that as some experience on my resume for more work. Now in between contracts, what I'm going to do is refocus my Linux site and my Windows site into a single site that gives out a bunch of free stuff, and then, if I do want to charge for something, it won't be some crappy utility that noone registers anyway. Small utilities are advertising, in their own right.
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Re: (Score:2)
nowt but 'perfect predictive hindsight' (Score:5, Insightful)
You know what makes a good proprietary conversion of an open source or free product? Succeeding.
There is no certain way to succeed in *anything*.
There are always going to be thousands of failures for every success in the software world, and thousands of moderate or short term successes for every 'killer app' class of success.
I don't want to hear about also rans being analysed to prove a point that was arrived at before the article was even begun.
Considering the source. (Score:5, Insightful)
Does it really surprise anyone that Linux.com would be against any project going closed source? That would be kind of like being surprised the Westboro Baptist Church put out a statement denouncing homosexuality.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It also seems that they deliberately took a project that was doomed to fail.
"The basic idea behind Interclue would make for a handy Web utility, but seems too slight to build a business around."
Yeah, so, they took a project that couldn't be commercialized effectively, tried to commercialize it, and failed.
This isn't a lesson in going from OS to Commercial, it's a lesson in predictable failure.
Re: (Score:2)
You'll note that Linux.com content isn't released under the GFDL...
The key sentence in the article (Score:5, Insightful)
The basic idea behind Interclue would make for a handy Web utility, but seems too slight to build a business around.
To rephrase: If your product isn't valuable enough for people to spend money on, it will be hard to make money selling it. The rest of the article is a fairly well-written review of an obscure add-on, with very little insight about open vs. proprietary software.
Re: (Score:2)
There are, of course, a few exceptions. Windows, for example.
Yeah but Windows has a lot of value (Score:3, Interesting)
Windows isn't a cheap utility. It's an operating system that has any number of components that a developer could leverage and use. Yeah, Windows isn't free as in beer or in open, but, the developer generally doesn't pay the cost of the libraries that get bundled with it, consumers do.
So, in essence, Windows is a tax on consumers for developers to get nearly free stuff to write for. This model makes it impossible for third party library providers to actually succeed unless they deliver some niche that Win
Re:The key sentence in the article (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Dual licensing. (Score:3, Insightful)
I scanned TFA... (Score:2)
...and it looks like Interclue pops up an icon that tries to add information about a link as you hover over it. Kinda like those active links on crappy websites that pop up a little window either offering to transport you to a site to get the best price on 'SQL injection attacks', a reference site explaining 't-shirts', or offering to let you fill out a survey because YOUR opinion is 'important'.
Yeah. I need more spam in my life. Won't be paying for this add-on. I get enough crap on websites already.
Re:Proprietary solutions (Score:5, Funny)
Your Newspeak is ungood. "bad" is ungroupthink. Use "doubleplusungood".
Parent
Whoosh (Score:5, Insightful)
If you think Newspeak is next generation then you must be at least 90. I'll get off your lawn now.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, and I'll give you 1/2 point because my syntax is incorrect. The correct phrasing should have been:
Your Newspeak is ungood. "bad" is ungroupthinkful. Use "doubleplusungood".
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's true, requiring the software and its derivatives to remain open reduces commercial involvement, but its the only way to prevent companies from simply taking the community's wo