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VW Set To Release Diesel Hybrid

Posted by kdawson on Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:15 AM
from the zum-zum-sip dept.
Transportation Earth Hardware
SUVs_SUCK writes "It's official — Volkswagen is unveiling a hybrid to challenge the mighty Toyota Prius. And not just any hybrid, but a diesel-electric hybrid it says will deliver 69.9 mpg. Auto Express says the Golf hybrid will be offered for sale in Europe by the end of next year. No word yet on when we might see it in the US."
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Submission: VW set to release diesel-hybrid by Anonymous Coward
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  • bollocks (Score:5, Funny)

    by stoolpigeon (454276) * <bittercode@gmail> on Friday February 29 2008, @11:16AM (#22600812) Homepage Journal
    Don't forget it's a diesel [youtube.com]

  • Which Gallon? (Score:5, Informative)

    by compwizrd (166184) on Friday February 29 2008, @11:20AM (#22600876) Homepage
    US and Imperial gallons vary significantly, 70mpg in imperial is 58 mpg in US gallons.. still quite good.
    • As soon as Dick Cheney's pacemaker seizes-up!

    • Re:Which Gallon? (Score:5, Informative)

      by iainl (136759) on Friday February 29 2008, @11:37AM (#22601184)
      It's US gallons; UK Channel 4 quote the mileage as 83.1mpg. As I noted elsewhere before I realised the mistake, the best a current Golf offers is 62.8 mpg Imperial, so if this really were an Imperial value it wouldn't gain you much over the current offering.
    • It's actually 83mpg imperial, hence the 70mpg figure in Wired (click on the link in the Wired article to see the UK article with the numbers in imperial).

      83mpg is pretty good for a Golf-sized vehicle, but a carefully driven 2.0 TDI gets almost 70mpg on a trip, when kept within the speed limit ;0)

    • My car gets forty rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I likes it!
      --Grampa

      Weirdly, on the Continent they like to measure fuel consumption the other way round, as kilometres per litre. So there is no agreed SI-unit replacement for miles per gallon. Clearly though, mpg is a confusing term and should be avoided; English speakers will wonder whether you meant US or Imperial gallons, and everyone else won't have a clue.

        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          by iainl (136759)
          A Fiat Panda is a significantly smaller car, though - a compromise not everyone is able to make (speaking as someone who upgraded from a Panda-sized car to a Golf-variant when my son was on the way, and immediately realised it was the right decision when I tried to put a pushchair in the boot).

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by rah1420 (234198)
          Geez, I don't know what took them so long - locomotives have been doing it this way for years.

          Well, it's about damn time. :)
  • ... why shell out the extra cash for a hybrid thingie when I get 45 mpg with my car (VW Touran 2.0 TDI) already ?

    A couple of thousand bucks ($ or Euros) still buys a lot of fuel.

    • I will, and I'm an '05 Golf TDI owner who's enjoying about 43 MPG today. I'm an efficiency geek - always loved that diesels did more with less than gasoline engines. I can't wait to use the same tech in my car that's used in locomotives - that REALLY appeals to the kid in me.
      • "Less" being relative, since diesel fuel contains more energy per volume than gasoline. Apples and oranges, except this is a car analogy.

  • Why Hybrid? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by iainl (136759) on Friday February 29 2008, @11:25AM (#22600934)
    The current 1.9 TDI BlueMotion S does 62.8 mpg anyway, if we're talking Proper Gallons instead of the US ones. Which I'd expect a German company to be doing.

    All the nasty, difficult to dispose of and full of toxic chemical batteries aren't improving that value by a hell of a lot, then.
    • That's what I was thinking. We see a lot of push for hybrids, when you could easily get the same fuel mileage out of a car that isn't a hybrid. I remember seeing a VW Beatle deisel with a 3.0 L/100KM sticker on the side (it was a promotional thing) which equates to 78 Miles/Gallon (According to Google). Why bother toting around batteries, and having all the problems with their disposal and maintenance, when you can just go with a pure diesel engine?
      • Because you could get the same mileage out of a car with a real back seat and enough power to get up to highway speed before you grow old and die?
        • I live in a Canadian tech sector too (Ottawa). I know people with Diesel trucks. They don't seem to have too much of a problem finding pumps. Also, people who are investigating hybrids are probably a little more forward thinking than most people. Market it to that crowd, and you could probably get quite a few buyers. All the efficiency of a hybrid, with the proven reliability and long-life of a diesel.
            • The problem is you live in Kanata, which seems to have no service industry, despite a large number of people living and working out there. Filling up with diesel is more inconvenient, as less places do offer it, but it's still somewhat easy to find. My argument would be, why would you need more than 1 pump? Sure they could charge higher rates, because of less competition, but that doesn't seem to happen. Also, if you're travelling long distances, you'll find that most gas stations on the highway do of
        • Where does this "oh no, no diesel" myth propagate?

          If the place has 'stuff' the 'stuff' was brought by a truck using diesel. Sure every single gas station in town doesn't have one, but look around, sometimes it's on a separate island, sometimes it's just another handle on the gas pumps. It's not that hard to find.

          I love my '98 TDI and I have NEVER had a problem finding diesel (although given that you have 600-800 miles per tank to do so...)

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by RingDev (879105)

      All the nasty, difficult to dispose of and full of toxic chemical batteries aren't improving that value by a hell of a lot, then.
      Batteries are difficult to dispose of, but really easy to recycle.

      -Rick

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by peacefinder (469349)
      Why Hybrid? Regenerative braking. Since it's a tad difficult to convert recovered braking energy into diesel fuel, some other energy storage device is needed.

  • US Vaporware (Score:4, Informative)

    by CompMD (522020) on Friday February 29 2008, @11:43AM (#22601258)
    "No word yet on when we might see it in the US."

    We won't. The United States has long hated diesel cars. I can't think of a single domestic automaker that has a diesel car. And the number of imports is *very* limited. When you can find one, you will not receive any discounts, no special offers apply to them, and the dealers will avoid making you a deal on the price. On top of that, it is not always easy to find diesel. In the Chicago area it was a complete pain to find a station that sold diesel for my old Mercedes. I was thankful that there was one near my home, but the next nearest one was four towns away.

    I'd love to see this type of car around here. I get sick and tired of listening to my friends tell me how they are so proud that their new, spartan, unimaginative, boring, uncomfortable Toyotas, Hondas, and Fords get 30mpg on the highway. Although I do love watching them flip out when I show them how my 24 year old, 5000 lb, loaded with bells and whistles, diesel Mercedes sedan gets 38mpg on the highway.

    Sigh. I don't know when we're gonna "get it" over here.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by chill (34294)
      For the longest time, there were different regulations in different U.S. States in regards to diesel passenger vehicles. For example, they were illegal to sell in Massachusetts. Essentially, Mass and a few other States lowered the sulphur emission standards to impossible levels.

      Then came Federally mandated low-sulphur diesel fuel. This stuff allows good diesel engines, like VW's TDI series, to meet emission standards in all 50 U.S. States. As this low-sulphur diesel works its way into the system, then t

    • I'm not so sure (Score:5, Interesting)

      by name_already_taken (540581) on Friday February 29 2008, @12:25PM (#22601924)
      The United States has long hated diesel cars.

      I don't think that's entirely true. GM screwed it up for everyone else by their half-assed conversions of gasoline engines to diesel around 1979 - broken crankshafts, cracked cylinder heads, etc. resulted from not adequately reengineering the main components of the Oldsmobile 5.7L V8 and 4.3L V6 (used in front wheel drive A-body cars).

      The Mercedes diesels have always been reliability legends and sold well in the USA through the 1980s. There are still a lot of W123-chassis diesel models running around. VW diesels seem well regarded in the USA too.

      In the US pickup truck marketplace, diesels are seen as ultra-reliable high-torque powerhouses. A full-size pickup with a diesel engine gets significantly better fuel mileage than my gasoline-powered mid-size Dodge Dakota (I have seen mileage as low as 9.9 MPG in city driving in bad winter weather). Problem is, diesels are seen as ultra-reliable high-torque powerhouses and so the diesel pickup engines available are all overbuilt, for the people who apparently tow ocean liners across the country or something. The Cummins 5.9L diesel 6-cylinder engine was a $6000 option by itself, and there is no light-duty diesel engine available for normal people.

      I can't think of a single domestic automaker that has a diesel car.

      Well I guess it depends on what you consider a "car". Chrysler currently sells the Jeep Liberty with a 2.8L diesel engine which according to reviews gives superior performance and much better fuel economy than the 3.7L gasoline engine, and all three of the big three (GM, Chrysler, Ford) sell pickup trucks with diesel engines (although they are huge trucks).

      With the current fuel costs, there is definitely a market in the USA for efficient vehicles, but people aren't willing to give up performance (remember the 48HP VW Rabbit diesel? I'd hate to try to merge into expressway traffic in one of those) or move to much smaller vehicles (utility and the perception of safety).

      I think with the modern diesel technology that cuts the noise (although I love the diesel clatter myself) and cleans up the emissions, and fuel economy that rivals or surpasses hybrid gasoline cars (without making the car into an expensive science-fair project on wheels), the time for diesel cars in the USA has arrived.

      • Re:I'm not so sure (Score:4, Informative)

        by Spoke (6112) <drees@greenhydrant.com> on Friday February 29 2008, @03:36PM (#22604724)
        and cleans up the emissions

        Frankly, that is the #1 reason that diesels aren't selling in the US right now.

        Currently even the cleanest diesel cars due out this year are just barely clean enough to squeak by US emissions standards. Particulate and NOx emissions are insanely high compared to to gas cars.

        Producing a car that gets great mileage (and low CO2 emissions) AND low pollutant emissions as well is not an easy task. The Prius hybrid is still by far the leader in fuel economy AND low emissions.

        By the time this VW diesel hybrid is out, the next generation Prius will be out shortly. Don't forget that the current Prius is already nearly 5 years old - and no-one has anything that really competes in terms of fuel economy, emissions and practicality.
      • Um, I had a friend buy a brand new VW Jetta TDI (Turbo Diesel Injection) just two years ago. They may not be the most popular option, but companies sell new deisels. I thought Mercedes still sold a Diesel, and I'd be amazed if you couldn't get a couple of different trucks in a Diesel version. It's the Toyota Tundra available in Diesel, for example?
        • The big 3 all make heavy duty diesel trucks. I heard Ford was considering a F150 diesel model in 2009.

  • Great news! (Score:5, Funny)

    by spywhere (824072) on Friday February 29 2008, @11:44AM (#22601284)
    I've thought about buying a Prius, but they lack the massive quality problems and terrible fit & finish that come standard with every Volkswagen model.
    Now I can save the planet even more: on the days it's in the shop for warranty repairs, it will consume no fuel!
    • From what I understand, the diesel VWs are built in Europe, which leads to considerably fewer problems than the ones built in Mexico or China.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by bhtooefr (649901)
          What year was yours?

          Rule #1 of buying a VW is to take rule #1 of using a Microsoft OS (wait until the first service pack has come out,) and replace "first service pack" with "second model year." ;)
    • European VWs are different. In over 60000 miles mine stopped once: when the battery gave out and failed to start it, and an hour later it was off again with a new battery. It did throw a fault: the oil pressure warning light came on in error. But, as someone experienced in Diesels, I just had to listen to the engine to know it was the light and not the engine.

      The Prius is made uneconomically by Totota to buy market mindset, hence the build quality etc., and for that reason you might want one (it's a bargain

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ink (4325) *
      :-) Soooo true. My '03 Golf TDI has saved a LOT of fuel by saying the night at the dealer for its infamous electrical "issues". I still love it though.

  • My questions... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by scubamage (727538) on Friday February 29 2008, @12:18PM (#22601832)
    A) Can I use biodiesel?
    B) Can I install a propane injection system like a normal diesel? That could put milage well over 100mpg if you could.

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by scubamage (727538)
        No propane is not free, however if you treat it as a fuel additive and include it in the price, for the increase in miles/gal its still pretty amazing. I'm more concerned with whether adding a fumigator/injector is going to be possible with the hybrid model :) Something about getting a hundred miles per gallon or more just sounds so attractive... my friend's Jetta tdi used to get about 84 miles per gallon with the propane system... throw in the use of electricity and I think you'd be able to get some really

  • Solution in search of a problem (Score:3, Interesting)

    by damn_registrars (1103043) on Friday February 29 2008, @02:28PM (#22603674) Journal
    The VW diesels already get better freeway mileage than anything else for sale in the US - Japanese hybrids included. But yet diesels don't sell in anything other than trucks at any appreciable rate in the US.

    And if you are asking why, you just need to look back to the 1970's - when the US big three so royally screwed up the application of diesel engines for sedans that many American buyers would never consider them again. Those were cars that got poor mileage, belched out soot that nearly forced you to repaint your house, and had horrendous reliability to boot. And don't forget about the noise, either.

    Unfortunately, it appears that the same anti-diesel people from the 70's have risen to be the CEOs at the big three in the current decade. We know that all three are making diesel sedans - and selling them well overseas. The ford focus and dodge caliber are just two examples of small vehicles made by US auto makers that are available as diesels in other markets.

    So really, whats the point of making a diesel-electric hybrid? Are there that many people outside of this country that think its a great idea to lug around a trunk full of batteries?

    I know I am not alone in saying I'd be happy to buy a diesel sedan from the big three if they would wake up and sell one here.
    • The modern, efficient diesel engines (pump-nozzle or common-rail injection) usually don't get clearance for biodiesel from their manufacturer. One bad batch of the stuff and you can kiss the engine goodbye, which usually comes with a four-digit bill attached to it.

      • On crack? (Score:5, Informative)

        by RingDev (879105) on Friday February 29 2008, @11:33AM (#22601108) Homepage Journal
        Modern diesels are fine with BD. The main issue with running BD was on older engines with rubber fuel lines that the BD would dissolve, leading to clogged injectors and damaged fuel lines. But you can buy a VW diesel and run BD20 in it with out violating the warrenty. You can run BD100 in them just fine, but since BD isn't quite as standardized as PD they will not honor the warrenty if there is a fuel related problem and you've been running anything over BD20. In fact, the new ULSD fuel has lost a good deal of it's natural lubricity. Running 20% BD, 80% ULSD will actually get you the lower emissions of the ULSD and the lubricity of LSD.

        -Rick

        • Running 20% BD, 80% ULSD will actually get you the lower emissions of the ULSD and the lubricity of LSD.
          Forget it then; we'll never see these in the US, what with the senseless of our WAR ON DRUGS!!!!
          • Heh... That would be "Low Sulfur Diesel" and "Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel" which represent 500ppm and 15ppm sulfur content respectively.

            -Rick
        • That's not true. Quite a few modern engines are factory certified to run at least on E85. Try running your (modern) diesel engine with E85, and you don't even need a bad batch to kiss it goodbye. It'll pretty much kill it as soon as you try to start the engine.
        • That's not true. Quite a few modern engines are factory certified to run at least on E85.

          which is neither diesel nor bio-diesel.

        • Re:Probably not. (Score:5, Informative)

          by 0100010001010011 (652467) on Friday February 29 2008, @11:32AM (#22601092)
          Biodiesel IS NOT ETHANOL. E85 is an ethanol blend. B% is a biodiesel blend. Most modern manufactures will warranty up to B5.

          The problem with Biodiesel is that too much of it is out of spec. A recent survey done by I forget who found that 50% of "biodiesel" didn't meet the ASTM specification. Imagine if 50% of gasoline or diesel didn't meet the required spec, engines would be shitting out left and right.

          Get the stock and specifications under control and then we'll talk.
    • Diesel engines require no modification to run biodiesel. Some hose components and seals may need changing. Also, if you have an old engine you will probably need to clean the fuel filter after several thousand miles as the biodiesel will clean out the accumulated junk from regular diesel.

      Europe already has a requirement to blend biodiesel into regular diesel sold at the pump.
      • Diesel engines require no modification to run biodiesel.

        Modern injection systems have problems with biodiesel (got that from a buddy who's designing those at Bosch). So, while the engine will run, it'll foul up your injection system sooner or later. Especially since they still have problems getting consistent fuel quality.

        Non-injected diesel engines don't have these issues, but they aren't as efficient as their modern brethern and probably harder to find in cars, too.

        • Well I have a friend that works at Delphi making injectors, and what he says is that the manufactures don't have 20 years of product history to know if they will work. So while they don't anticipate any problems they are all holding back on certifying them as being compliant.
      • Old-stlye diesel engines run equally well on either type, but modern high-pressure diesel injection systems have experienced problems with certain types of biodiesel forming parafin-like deposits in the injectors, which can clog them or even cause overheating and subsequent damage. (I work at a Bosch plant which manufactures these systems.)

        Contrary to a previous rather alarmist post I have never heard of a customer having to replace an engine for one of these problems, though the injection system may requir
    • If they are using some version of their tried-and-true diesel engine, yes. Lost among all of the shouting about energy independence rhetoric is the fact that the VW TDI's have been bio-diesel certified for years.

      Better still, they make **excellent** grease car conversions. The next car we buy will be a TDI. The grease conversion kit isn't that expensive and doing a good job on the conversion looks like a weekend's work.

          • Re:biodiesel? (Score:4, Informative)

            by bhtooefr (649901) <bhtooefrNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Friday February 29 2008, @05:11PM (#22605840) Homepage Journal
            First, I'll note that Gothmolly was wrong about the injection pressure on the Pumpe-Duese TDIs. It's 30,000 PSI, not 20,000. The common rail TDIs will be about 30,000 PSI as well.

            Anyway, there's many problems. First is the viscosity of the vegetable oil. It's thick enough that the pump (or pumps in the PD cars) has to work a *LOT* harder to pump it, stressing it beyond the design specifications.

            Second is... once you heat it to even get it close to the correct viscosity, it loses its ability to properly cool the fuel system.

            Third is... in the injectors, the extreme heat there causes it to break down into its component fatty acids and glycerin... which then cokes on the injectors. When that happens, the spray pattern of the injectors is worsened, which can cause streams of fuel to hit things in the engine... causing major damage.

            Look on TDIClub [tdiclub.com] in the Alternative Diesel Fuels forum... there are various threads showing pictures of the carnage that WVO can cause.

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