Tesla Motors Opens Retail Store 442
Tesla Motors has opened their first retail store front to allow the masses access to their new cars. Of course, this is assuming you can afford the $109,000 price tag. "The company told the Associated Press that it is impressed with demand: it has taken 600 orders for the Roadster and has a waiting list of another 400. CEO Elon Musk owns the first one produced. The fancy showroom near Beverly Hills takes its inspiration from Apple stores, Musk said. [...] The company plans to make a luxury sedan next year called the Whitestar that will come in two versions: an all-electric model that will run entirely on its lithium ion battery pack, and a range-extended vehicle that will also use liquid fuel to extend its range. The Roadster will have a range of 220 miles per charge and the mileage equivalent of 135 miles per gallon."
hehe (Score:5, Funny)
new battery powered kind of way to cook Turkey?
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Hawt! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hawt! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:hehe (Score:4, Insightful)
Once these LiIon powered cars are widely available, firefighters and other emergency responders are a little concerned about digging in to extract crash victims from twisted smoking piles of LiIon battery wreckage so maybe your name is an apt one.
Re:hehe (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:hehe (Score:5, Insightful)
If you need the jaws of life, it's safe to assume that there have been some modifications to the structure. You've probably voided your warranty too.
Re:hehe (Score:4, Interesting)
Personally, I'd have not much more concern about driving a plain old Li-ion powered car than I have using a Li-ion laptop. Granted, the worst case scenario in a car is much more destructive of the battery, but it doesn't seem to be beyond the capabilities of engineering to render the risk of Li-ion to be on the same order of danger as gasoline or ethanol. If safety is so important, then we should be talking about Li-ion phosphate or NiMH.
What's holding things back in electric cars and plug-in hybrids are all the patents covering the kinds of things you'd need to do to produce large batteries. It's not so much a question of physical practicality than legal practicality, That's why we haven't seen the next logical step on hybrids: the plug-in hybrid. It's not possible to license the technology to scale the NiMH hydride batteries used in current generation vehicles to a size large enough to make the plug-in idea really work.
We're pretty close to being able to make reasonably versatile electric cars economically, and given the popularity of hybrids the plug-in hybrid is a no-brainer. If we don't see those technologies become practical for widespread use in the next decade, it won't be because the world lacks the engineering talent to do it.
That's cheap! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:That's cheap! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:That's cheap! (Score:5, Funny)
Just goes to show that contrary to popular belief that mods just just sheepishly give you whatever moderation you suggest at the end of your post, funny.
Re:That's cheap! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:That's cheap! (Score:5, Funny)
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Neat! (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't wait for these types of cars to hit mass production and come down in price so that us normal people can afford them.
That is what I'd call the ultimate "gas tax holiday."
Re:Neat! (Score:5, Informative)
Now, this doesn't mean that *EVs* won't come down in price. There are already a number of them coming out (see my post further down) with prices in the $25-30k range that'll give you 0-60 in 7-10 seconds and 100-120 miles range, with the whole range of modern safety and comfort features. They use less energy-dense variants of li-ion, such as phosphates and spinels, that have vastly superior lifespans that should last at least a decade, and probably last the lifespan of the vehicle. The batteries should also be cheaper once they enter mass production due to their much cheaper raw ingredients.
Re:Neat! (Score:5, Interesting)
As in making an affordable, more practical electrical vehicle for the masses, not as in winning the Order of the German Eagle or whatever Nazi medal Ford got in 1938.
Re:Not entirely accurate either (Score:4, Interesting)
Perhaps... assuming you drive it 200 miles a day. Laptop cells suffer serious time degradation. They *also* have cycle life limit problems, but that's the smaller of the two issues.
Third, while the current generations of LiIon have a limited set of charges, the research is extending this out all the time. A number of the other types which Tesla will no doubt buy patents rights for, will charge many more times than a 1000.
Yes -- phosphates, titanates, spinels, etc -- which I've been mentioning. And no, they won't buy the rights; there's no way they could afford them (except perhaps on titanates, since AltairNano is struggling... not sure it'd be a wise buy). And in some cases , such as the phosphates, who owns the rights is confusing enough. Almost everyone making reasonable-priced EVs right now is using phosphates, titanates, or spinels. Tesla is *behind* on this. I don't fault them; they need the better energy density, their customers can afford it, and when they started, these techs were less mature. But that doesn't change the fact that they're using something that's inferior tech for automotive applications.
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Wasn't the range 400 miles last year? Bloody laptop batteries never give what they promise.
(one has to wonder if one of those little drink-cooler looking Honda generators in the trunk or back might give you an extra few miles)
Re:Not entirely accurate either (Score:4, Interesting)
The problem is that even if they last 100,000 miles, the cost of the batteries is half the price of the car. It uses 6800 of the 18650 LiIon cells. These things are on the order of $7 apiece at the cheapest retail price. Even if they could get them for half that, you're still talking about almost $25,000 ever 100,000 miles (plus whatever profit they tack on). That means you're paying $0.25 per mile just for the batteries---seven cents per mile more than my gasoline cost for a Ford Windstar, and you haven't even factored in the cost of charging them.
Further, it takes 75 kilowatt hours of power to charge it, and a charge only lasts 220 miles. At my current PG&E rate of 33 cents per kilowatt hour, that comes out to $24.75 for that 220 miles, or an additional $0.11 per mile, for a grand total of a whopping $0.36 per mile---seven cents per gallon more than the average cost of driving a Lamborghini roadster....
The fundamental flaw with all current electric cars is the LiIon battery cost/lifespan ratio. It needs to be increased by at least an order of magnitude for it to make sense compared with conventional cars. Whether that means the batteries come down to $2500 or last a million miles doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Honestly, though, I'm holding out for ultracapacitors. Chemical cells just aren't nearly robust enough for this sort of application.
Not entirely accurate either (Score:5, Insightful)
That means you're paying $0.25 per mile just for the batteries---seven cents per mile more than my gasoline cost for a Ford Windstar...at my current PG&E rate of 33 cents per kilowatt hour, that comes out to $24.75 for that 220 miles, or an additional $0.11 per mile, for a grand total of a whopping $0.36 per mile---seven cents per gallon more than the average cost of driving a Lamborghini roadster....
For the EV, you're including long term matintencance costs in the per mile calculation. Are you doing the same for your Windstar?
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But the holiday would only last until it becomes a problem collecting taxes for road repair. The gas tax generally means that cars are taxed by their usage, and weight, but electric cars bypass the taxman. Eventually (perhaps hopefully), the numbers of electric cars would cause a shortfall of funding for the most important part of our national infrastructure.
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Re:Neat! (Score:4, Insightful)
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In Virginia at least, gas tax money is separate from the General Fund and cannot be used for anything other than transportation related initiatives.
In fact, we recently had a pretty big budget shortfall, and even though I am sure the politicians wanted to pillage the transportation fund, they couldn't. I think only in emergency cases where one of the state entitlement programs (like pensions or medicare) is about to fail can the money be tapped.
Re:Neat! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Neat! (Score:5, Informative)
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It wouldn't be that difficult to pass legislation doing just that. They could even just do it based on the panel size and your location (since the electricity generated could be roughly calculated from that information).
What are you going to do - hide your solar panels away out of sight of people and google earth?
Perhaps you might - but if you end up with some kind of hidden retracting solar collector, James Bond will probably come by and blow it up!
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Nyet (Score:4, Informative)
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/electric-car1.htm [howstuffworks.com]
Granted, eventually you'll have to treplace the batts, but if they last ten years and the R&D goes on for ten years, I imagine tomorrow's prices will be considerable less for better quality batteries. And like gas cars, they will depreciate as you drive them off the lot, probably unless you get a collector car, like these first run Teslas will be. I don't see anyone actually losing money on them if they can afford the upfront costs. And for that matter, anyone who can afford one of these cars could also afford a solar rig setup to keep them charged, eventually that is paid off and it is more or less free driving.
The government will most likely go to odometer readings to charge taxes though, that will screw with your cost per mile again.
No free lunch, but you can get a cheaper lunch, and going all electric with personal production means eventually at least the cost of the fuel will be free, just leaving minimal maintenance and taxes.
I am not sure, but I bet the cheapest way right now for joe sixpack to get a functional all electric car that isn't exotic or supremely cobjobbed would be to get a well used prius, rip out the gas engine and tank (save them for later, see next), add additional batteries, now you have a full electric with some legs and it weighs less most likely. I don't know if anyone has done this yet, I know they made plugins that mean you lose most cargo space for the additional batts, but carrying around two engines, the ICE and the electric, plus the gas tank, plus the batteries, is just lame, it works but it is stoopid, twice as much weight as you want or need. The hybrid idea is OK- but not in the same frame, it is ridiculous really. The ICE and fuel tank need to be in a small trailer for trips, most of the time around town and commuting you can leave it unattached and just run pure electric. I could even see people not even buying the ICE trailer part if they only needed it a few times a year and just renting it on the odd weekends they need one.
You'd pay ~$550 (Score:3, Interesting)
Let's do the math:
That's assuming (a) you're in the US, (b) you're driving a car that gets US-fleet-average mileage, and (c
Re:Neat! (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the major advantage is that you can clean a power plant much easier than every tailpipe out there. Now if we just started getting more nukes started, with fast breeder tech that reduced the waste drastically, it'd be even better.
Re:Neat! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Neat! (Score:4, Interesting)
What builders of EV and alternate fuel cars tend to learn the hard way is if you're not paying taxes on your fuel, you're breaking the law.
Most states have substantial (to the tune of $500 or more) additional yearly registration or excise taxes which have to be payed on pluggable EVs.
You're not going to escape the gas tax one way or another.
Ill be visiting the san jose store hopefully (Score:2)
Air Bags (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Air Bags (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Air Bags (Score:4, Funny)
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F1 cars don't have airbags.
Thousands of racing sedans don't have airbags.
Instead, the driver wears a safety harness that fits, sits in a seat that fits, and doesn't spend time hunched over sideways fiddling with the radio controls. And they only die in exceptional circumstances.
Airbags are, like many other "safety" inventions, needless complications foisted on the car-buying public at large because a small percenta
Re:Air Bags (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not to say that the current state of regulation is necessarily right -- but the comparison to race cars is inane. The circumstances are totally different and so the safety concerns are totally different.
It's all well and good to ask why the law protects some idiot from his own mistake when he drives distracted. But did you ever notice how accidents often involve more than one car, and the other guy -- even if he's doing everything right -- is in harm's way, too? Again, intelligent people can argue about the government's role in regulating safety, but don't try to disguise the issue by pretending only idiots are in car accidents.
Re:Air Bags (Score:5, Insightful)
What, like being dumb enough to let a drunk driver hit you? Or silly enough to allow your brakes to fail? Ooh, or being too stupid to notice that deer! It's not a "protect[ion] from yourself thing," it's just a "protection" thing, same as your seat belt, safety windshield, center brake light, and a dozen other things. I'd be happy to let you drive a car without those safety features -- just sign this little card explicitly refusing taxpayer-funded ambulance and emergency room services. After all, why should those of us who can be bothered to pay for the bare minimum precautions be forced to support your dumb ass on life support?
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True. Also true is that those racing seats are custom made to fit each driver (ever watched a 1000 km race and wonder why they switch sea
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Passenger require a number of compromises in order to make them practical for the driver. First of all, a helmet is mandatory in a race car because if they're in an accident it's a near certainty that they'd crack their head on the roll cage without one.
A passenger car needs usable interior space, trunk space, windows that can be opened, comfortable seats in addi
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Congrats, Tesla (Score:5, Informative)
If they bring it to the US (probably around the 2010 timeframe), there Mitsubishi i-EV [youtube.com] -- 4 seater, 100 miles, styled like a cross between a VW beetle and a PT cruiser, or perhaps between a Prius and a minivan.
There's also the Chevy Volt [youtube.com], late 2010, a 4 seater PHEV (40 miles electric, 50mpg after that) with "chopped" styling (I find it ugly, but a lot of people find it "sporty").
Lastly, as a bit more of a long shot, there's the VentureOne [youtube.com], a tandem two-seater cross between a car and a motorcycle that tilts into turns. 120 miles in the EV version, and should be pretty efficient, too.
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Phoenix has some good vehicles, but they're just too expensive for most people. If they can get their prices down,
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I can believe that, but while I'm not neutral, I'm also not diametrically opposed. I don't think it looks good at all, but I don't really care that much about looks.
As with all cars, if you damage a part of the car, you pay to get it repaired. No different with an Aptera.
I'd love to live in the universe where some damaged body panels is "no different" than a bent axle.
Comparisons to a more expensive car with aspirations towards being
Tesla Roadster in the Automotive X Prize (Score:4, Informative)
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Looks like a plucked turkey (Score:2)
Bad omen? (Score:5, Funny)
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I bet if you give it to Eddie Griffin [youtube.com] or Stefan Eriksson [joystiq.com] that they'd bring it back in a million pieces.
I don't see the point... (Score:4, Insightful)
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It's a high-end product and people in the market know they can't purchase one "today" like you can with other cars. They know they have to wait. The showroom is to invigorate the senses and hope a wealthy buyer makes an order. It's the best kind of advertising they could buy.
Re:I don't see the point... (Score:4, Informative)
"Tesla Motors will service your car at our Tesla Stores. We plan to open the first Tesla Stores in our five key markets (metropolitan San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, and Miami), each offering direct sales and support for buyers and owners. Our first two stores will open in early 2008."
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Seems like an expensive way to just keep their name/product visible
Because there's absolutely no value in advertising... *rolls eyes*
The point is they are taking reservations and shipping Tesla cars, some are already on the road - albeit in very limited quantity. In addition and as you said, the company is gaining visibility and publicity for their brand. Honestly I think it's a great way to do things.
I'd also much rather sign over $109k in person than wire it to some random company online... maybe that's just me.
Here's the Link (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.teslamotors.com/ [teslamotors.com]
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The new "classic age" of autos (Score:3, Interesting)
Having grown up around adults who worshipped at the altar of limited-run classic cars (59 1/2 Shelby Cobra, anyone?) I feel like we're witnessing (or in some cases, participating in -- lucky bastards) the dawn of a new era of classic cars.
I know I'm rambling, and slightly OT, but I can easily imagine the Tesla Raodster being the star of some classic car show I'll take my grandkids to.
Anyway, my point is that I feel that we're finally witnessing the green car revolution, and I'm glad to be here for it.
A fool and his money (Score:2, Informative)
Tesla's claims are terribly fraudulent [thetruthaboutcars.com]. 220 mile claimed range has already been shown to be as low as 93 miles. Transmissions seem to be vaporware. For that matter, so are production cars, as not a single one has been delivered (I don't count the single unit "delivered" to Elon Musk.
Tesla sounds cool, as do electric vehicles in general (including plug-in hybrids), but this is just another operation preying on people with too much money and not enough brains. I am firmly in the ca
What's not to like about this scenario? (Score:2)
I'd love to find a way to separate the Intellectually Challenged Wealthy among us from some of their petty cash. Musk just beat me to it.
Re:A fool and his money (Score:5, Informative)
Tesla gets its stated range... if you drive it like a normal car. If you drive it like a sports car, no surprise, your range gets reduced, just like you get worse mileage on high power gasoline cars when you actually exploit their power instead of driving them normally.
Attention scuttlemonkey: (Score:3, Insightful)
Public transportation (Score:2)
Public transportation, if done correctly (a first in America), is safe and clean and cheap or free, runs 24 hours a day or close to it, and allows us to avoid the expense of private cars.
The rest of our driving can be done on golf carts for those errands near home. Or horses, which are as green as transportation is going to get.
There are intangible benefits to public transportation.
It brings us closer together with our neighbors. It ends the illu
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Most individuals can't afford this technology, but a city can.
Wait, what? What city is going to buy tesla cars for public transit?
Public transportation, if done correctly (a first in America), is safe and clean and cheap or free, runs 24 hours a day or close to it, and allows us to avoid the expense of private cars.
Ok, so you've ruled out all existing public transportation in America as any good. Where is this cheap/free (free?! show me ANY public transportation that could be called free by any standard?!)
The rest of our driving can be done on golf carts for those errands near home. Or horses, which are as green as transportation is going to get.
I lived in Chicago for several years. You think a golf cart is going to be able to make it around icy/snowy streets? You think a golf cart is going to coexist on streets that have any real cars?
There are intangible benefits to public transportation.
And there are very TANGIBLE benefits to owning your
Hot product! (Score:4, Funny)
The Roaster will have a range of 220 miles per charge and the mileage equivalent of 135 miles per gallon.
The Roaster? I didn't realize they were using Sony batteries! Or are they also taking inspiration from Apple laptops as well as their stores?
Rods per hogshead (Score:5, Funny)
And that's the way I likes it!
Meaningless phrase (Score:5, Interesting)
What is the conversion factor when going from "batteries charged off the grid" to "miles per gallon internal combustion gasoline engine?"
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then just do distance/energy (miles and whatever energy unit above) and use that factor to get the equivalent MPG.
Tame racing driver (Score:5, Insightful)
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and others say that despite this, he still can pick up chicks.
All we know is, he's called The Stig.
In other news.... (Score:3, Funny)
Donate now!
not 135 MPG equivalent! (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me see if I understand this (Score:2)
And you feel that they will be bankrupted early 2011?
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I wouldn't call that "short range". Seldom do I travel any farther.
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5 hours from my parents.
2.5 hours from Chicago
3 hours from my Alma Mater
4.5 hours from a Rugby tournament I went to at SIU
6 from where my family has Thanksgiving
7 hours from a tournament I went to in Nashville.
100 miles in the USA, to me, is very short range.
My diesel TDI does perfectly fine with the 600-800 range tank.
Re:short range (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, I'm looking forward to the day that either A) I have the expendable cash to afford a car like this, or B) the technology filters down to more typical consumer-targeted cars.
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Go ahead and pay for dirty coal power from your local power company, I'll continue driving my much greener truck for less money thank you very much.
Re:Open to the masses? (Score:4, Insightful)
The fact that this car is in production, that there is now a showroom where the public - if not the 'masses' - can see production models in person, and that according to Motor Trend and Car & Driver the Tesla Roadster out-performs every other production car EVER in the 30-70mph range (where 95% of all 'sport' driving of sports cars takes place), and that the car has gone from concept to production in under 10 years, in addition to the fact that this is an all-electric vehicle, altogether makes this a positively ASTONISHING accomplishment. Add to that the fact this car is a proof-of-concept and is, by design, a logical stepping-stone toward a mass-market all-electric vehicle, and you've got one of the few genuine harbingers of the green technology future in action TODAY.
So fuck you assholes and your vaporware tags. Get out of mom's basement, grow some balls and some vision, and maybe - just maybe - you might one day have a shot at being involved in a project one tenth as exciting and momentous as this one.
Re:Where does the electricity come from? (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not sure if you are deliberately being obtuse, but in the US we get our electric power from the following (approximately, source: Wikipedia)
Coal: 49%
Natural gas: 20%
Nuclear: 19%
Hydroelectric: 7%
Other: 5%
You may not be American though, so in case you are French, you get your electric power from the following:
Nuclear: 78%
Hydroelectric: 11%
Coal: 4%
Natural gas: 4%
Other: 3%
Using a gasoline engine will never rid the US of dependency on foreign oil. Using a non gasoline engine, coupled with an energy program that emphasizes alternatives to fossil fuels has the possibility of ridding the US of dependency on foreign oil.
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In addition to the points others have made, such as:
- Not all grid power is from fossil fuels.
- Grid fossil fuel plants are more efficient.
it should be noted that a car can get a LOT better mileage-equivalent if it doesn't have to burn fuel to carry a heat engine around with it.
Also: Like a hybrid, an electric can recycle a lot of the power that would otherwise be lost to braking or engine-braking - either stop-and-go traffic
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Due to the inefficient way in which power plants work they have excess power at night. The system will sustain a lot of people getting full-EVs if they just charge during off-peak hours and meanwhile they'll be using power that is currently literally wasted.
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Tesla Roadster: 0-60 in 3.9s.
Electric motor torque: Sexy.
Why you'd be considering a $100k sports car if cost savings is a significant consideration is beyond me. For those in the market for a sports car, I think the Tesla Roadster can mostly stand on its own, it's relatively scant "green" credentials being just an added bonus.
The batteries and motor have to be cooled. (Score:3, Informative)
Two horsepower is 1491+ watts - about the power of the largest space heater you can run on a 15-amp circuit.
So keeping the batteries warm enough to operate efficiently in cold climates shouldn't be a problem - just restrict the cooling unti
Re:Heat? (Score:4, Interesting)
You aren't. The Tesla has a battery heating/cooling system. They actually bring the batteries rapidly up to temperature, then try to hold them there.
Cars are 25% efficient or less before the drivetrain losses, drag, et cetera. Just the ICE is that bad. Charging a battery can be over 80% efficient, the electric motor is probably around 95% efficient... Anyway, most of that heat IS wasted. You think that a lot of engine heat is entering your car because it feels hot to you. But the radiator transfers several times as much heat as your heater core, and that doesn't even count the direct radiative losses from the block, heads, pan, and especially exhaust manifolds.
You mean, It'd - since your objection is based on an already-solved issue. Are you getting paid to badmouth the Tesla, or is sharing your ignorance just a hobby?