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Internet Not Really Dangerous For Kids After All
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:49 PM
from the nevermind dept.
from the nevermind dept.
Thomas M Hughes writes "We're all familiar with the claim that it's horribly dangerous to allow our children on to the Internet. It's long been believed that the moment a child logs on to the Internet, he will experience a flood of inappropriate sexual advances. Turns out this isn't an accurate representation of reality at all. A high-profile task force representing 49 state attorneys general was organized to find a solution to the problem of online sexual solicitation. But instead the panel has issued a report (due to be released tomorrow) claiming that 'Social networks are very much like real-world communities that are comprised mostly of good people who are there for the right reasons.' The report concluded that 'the problem of child-on-child bullying, both online and offline, poses a far more serious challenge than the sexual solicitation of minors by adults.' Turns out the danger to our children was all just media hype and parental anxiety." Those who have aggressively pushed the issue of the dangerous Internet, such as Connecticut's attorney general Richard Blumenthal, are less than happy with the report.
Related Stories
[+]
Your Rights Online: How Dangerous is Online Chat for Kids? 350 comments
The House Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet held a
hearing in my home town yesterday:
"Chatting
On-Line: A Dangerous Proposition for Children."
Six witnesses came to Kalamazoo, Michigan
and described the perils of on-line chat to
Rep. Fred Upton
(R-Michigan) and
Rep. Charles Bass
(R-New Hampshire). The most surprising and welcome news of the
afternoon was that, despite the alarmist title, there was
not a panicked call for additional legislation.
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*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Funny)
Quick, Smithers, massage my brain. I'm trying to think.
Parent
Re:*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Funny)
Well I'm a very consistent person, so in the same way that I make sure that my children cannot see anything that may disturb them a bit (OMG what if my children saw a grown man's wee wee? It would surely traumatise them for life), I don't let my children play on the playground with anything short of an American football player's protection gear (OMG what if they scrapped their knee and in resulted in tendon infection and we had to amputate their leg or something!)
I think that anyone who falls short of such measures of protection is a monster more than a parent and might as well push their children from the top of the helter skelter or show them a woman's breast.
Parent
Re:*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Insightful)
Your post is in jest, but, it is sad to think that in many places today, that if parents raised their kids like they did myself and my generation, and let us do the things we did, they'd possibly be arrested for child endangerment/neglect and actually risk having us taken away from them by child services!!
Corporal punishmens (especially in public??)...letting us roam about the neighborhood playing unsupervised? Running around on bicycles and skateboards without 2 tons of armor (often with NO protective gear at all)? No cell phone to keep in touch 24/7? Going to pools to swim and jumping off diving boards ???? Not knowing where we might be at all times?
Yep, it is truly amazing we made it to adulthood given the rough times we had growing up as kids without all the protections we have today...
Parent
Re:*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Funny)
You let your kids outside? If I had my way I'd imprison irresponsible parents like you who put their kids' lives in great danger.
Personally, I've solved the entire problem by encasing my children in polycarbonate resin which forms an airtight barrier between the sanctity of the child and the outside world - such as the aforementioed tendon infections, not to mention other fatal hazards such as necrotising fasciitis, piranha bees, country and western, homosexuality and religious freedom - which your pathetic padding does absolutely NOTHING to protect them from. You can't be too careful when it comes to exposing children to the world they find themselves living in.
So far I haven't had any complaints from the kids, their behaviour has improved immensely and they've even stopped over-eating and watching TV.
Parent
Re:*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Insightful)
My parents wanted me to be seen on my way to school, so I had to wear white clothes. White boots, white pants, white jacket, white scarf, white poodle hat, and then the snow plow got me.
While I know you're being sarcastic (or at least I really, really hope you are), there are far too many who'd consider what you said serious and would actually do that. But that's not how life works. You cannot childproof the world.
There are sensible things to do. There's such a thing as sensible childproofing. It's sensible to childproof your power sockets, because your child may well die, even with quite a bit of likelyhood, if they should cram something into them. It's sensible to childproof your stove, because hot water or, worse, oil can lead to life threatening injuries. It's sensible to lock away those bathroom chemicals because kids see some funny bottles and take a sip.
It's sensible to do all that when your child is 3. It crosses the border to insanity if you do that when your child is 13.
Kids are, if anything, explorers. They want to know. They want to learn. Last time I checked, parents wanted their kids to learn. So why is "you must not know/learn that" essentially what they keep repeating over and over?
Parent
Re:*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Insightful)
[sensible child proofing] It's sensible to do all that when your child is 3. It crosses the border to insanity if you do that when your child is 13.
While I understand and agree with the general point being made, I strongly disagree with the specific example.
One of the worst horrors from my years as a Registered Nurse in an Emergency Room was the grief of the 70 year old grandparents when their 3 year old grandchild drank from the bleach bottle kept under the sink during the first fifteen minutes of the kid's first visit to their home. It had been more than 40 years since they had children in the house and now because they had relaxed their guard, their grandchild was in incredible pain from the esophageal burns and at best faced growing up with frequent corrective surgeries because scar tissue just doesn't adapt to growth the way that normal esophageal tissue does. We got the child stable enough to transfer her to the Pediatric ICU, but this was one case where I did not want to know anything about how she did after that. I've seen a lot of misery of one kind or another, but this was so senseless...
If there is ANY possibility of young children visiting your house, keep up with the child proofing. Think of it as very low cost insurance against having nightmare memories of the worst kind of catastrophe for the rest of your life.
Parent
Re:*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple solution: Don't come to my home with small children in tow. It's for the best of everyone involved. Especially my sanity.
Parent
Re:*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Funny)
Dear God,
May I suggest that we also prevent children from being able to see or touch their genitals before they reach the age of consent? I mean you know, we don't want them to experience anything erotic or sexual before they reach a certain age, for the sake of their own mental development and health, of course.
Parent
Re:*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Insightful)
And then when they are the correct age, please let them go without any experience. I know of a girl who was brought up like this. She was not allowed to ever have boys over and never was allowed to go to girl friends.
When she was 18, she suddenly was allowed to do all this, because she was old enough. She became the school slut within weeks. Now I feel sorry for her, because she was absolutely not ready for this.
Kids should learn to fall and hit their head (emotionally as well). This is what growing up is about. Learning your boundaries.
Parent
Re:*plop* (mind blown) (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Unfortunately... (Score:5, Funny)
they will never know, given that this study is online.
Re:Unfortunately... (Score:5, Interesting)
Mine will. They get online at 2, when they get their first personal computer. It's part of how I teach them to read.
Parent
They made fools out of themselves. (Score:4, Insightful)
Those who have aggressively pushed the issue of the dangerous Internet, such as Connecticut's attorney general Richard Blumenthal, are less than happy with the report.
Fuck 'em.
Re:They made fools out of themselves. (Score:5, Insightful)
"Children are solicited every day online," Mr. Blumenthal said. "Some fall prey, and the results are tragic. That harsh reality defies the statistical academic research underlying the report."
He could use that disgusting sentence in a nice anti-intellectualism banner.
Parent
Re:They made fools out of themselves. (Score:5, Insightful)
"Children are run over by cars every day. That harsh reality defies any statistical research that most of them don't."
So let's ban cars. Or let's keep kids from crossing streets.
Seriously. When you send your kids to school, they'll have to cross a street or two (provided you're not in the fortunate position of having a school bus or similar system). So what do you do? Do you throw your little 6 year old out and tell him "this way, keep going 'til you're at the school"? Or do you take him or her by the hand and guide him, show him the traffic lights and how they work, show them the pedestrian crossing places and that they have to look out for cars? Go with him a few times, then send them alone while still following them to see whether they heed your guide?
So you do that when teaching your child to go to school, yes? Why the hell do you not do anything similar when they start using the internet? It works the same way. Sit down with them, explain to them how the various things work, what they should be aware of, how they should never tell anyone their real name or address, no matter how "nice" they are or how much they claim they're just another child, etc.?
Parent
Re:They made fools out of themselves. (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Reminds me of a Southpark episode... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Reminds me of a Southpark episode... (Score:4, Interesting)
And part of the reason why part of the definition of an Amber Alert is that the kid cannot be expected to be with either of their parents... parental-custody-despite-court-order doesn't count.
Parent
Equally Misleading (Score:4, Insightful)
Internet is still a dangerous place for kids, it's just not as dangerous as what others might have put it.
I certainly don't want my kids to use this report to tell me it's more dangerous for them to play in the playground across the road than letting them surf net all day.
The report says child-on-child bullying is more serious a problem to deal with, and I'm sure if they could solve this problem for kids, they would have solved the sexual solicitation problem as well.
Re:Equally Misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmmm... I've yet to get the shit beat out of me on the internet, but have gotten my ass kicked at a playground a couple times.
Which is more dangerous?
Parent
Re:Equally Misleading (Score:5, Funny)
Hmmm... I've yet to get the shit beat out of me on the internet, but have gotten my ass kicked at a playground a couple times.
Which is more dangerous?
The playground bully who finds you on Facebook.
Parent
Re:Equally Misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
Bruises heal without any effort, and as a kid it's usually within days. Emotional scars can last a lifetime.
What utter nonsense. And I suppose you don't think you get emotional scarring from having the crap kicked out of you by a playground bully?
Parent
Re:Equally Misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
When the torment is physical, you can easily fight back and have a fairly good chance of winning (especially if it's not your first time and/or it's not jock-on-dork). If you lose, yeah, it's not a great feeling psychologically, but you eventually wind up with the idea that you can take the guy if ever in another altercation. You're also less likely to be suspended/expelled if you fight back "in self defense"; whereas if you throw a punch because a bully said something that pushed your buttons, he gets a medal of commendation and you get a week's worth of detention.
With just word of mouth bullying, how do you fight it?
Your own retorts? The bullies will just laugh; they've spent lots of time thinking of good remarks to use on you, and find your response amusing, as it means they won.
Tell the teacher? Most teachers don't give half a shit. Same thing for the principal, and sometimes even the school counselor (if yours has one). If you succeed, the bully gets one or two detentions. It's nothing new for him (or her), and when it's over he comes back twice as hard because "you went crying to mommy".
Litigation/filing for assault just seems way out of proportion, and likely will have the same result as telling a teacher.
And then of course there are female bullies. From my experience and those related to me, male bullies are relatively fucking cheerful. Female bullies, especially towards other females, take the "passive aggressive" approach; rather than just making fun to a target's face, they'll take their time to, as a group, make up and spread rumors about the target. As these rumors get around, kids tend to take them more to heart. It also becomes much harder to find out who originally started the rumors (technically slander). And then everyone will start giving stares in the hallway or in class, and the target won't know exactly why, which just adds to it.
So you keep it pent up inside and it does stuff to you. As someone who was picked on often as a kid, I sure as hell wish my tormentors had turned physical so I would have had a good reason to fight back. Even if I lost, I would have given them a few shiners and would have lost a lot of my aggression/aggravation.
Physical bullying can have an emotional impact, but not nearly as hard or long-lasting as non-physical bullying.
On a somewhat-related note, should I ever have a kid (of either sex) I plan to tell them to do the following if they are bullied, each step if the previous doesn't stop it:
1) Tell the kid to stop.
2) Tell the closest teacher when an incident happens.
3) Tell the principal
4) Punch the kid in the nose
Every step they should tell me what's going on, and I'd probably be included in the discussion with the principal. If the school won't try to handle the situation (or does a bad job), I feel my kid is fully in the right to take matters into his own hand. One could try contacting the bully's parents, but, honestly, it's quite rare to find parents that will accept such accusations without hardcore proof (as a negative light on their child reflects back on them.)
Parent
Re:Equally Misleading (Score:5, Informative)
Obligatory bullying ref:
Big, Bad Bully [psychologytoday.com]
Excellent article on the phenomenon of bullying. Gave me a lot of insight into the dynamic.
Parent
Re:Equally Misleading (Score:5, Funny)
Good article... shows the mentality of the Psychologists/Social workers though, something like this:
Two social workers were walking through a rough part of the city in the evening. They heard moans and muted cries for help from a back lane.
Upon investigation, they found a semi-conscious man in a pool of blood. "Help me, I've been mugged and viciously beaten" he pleaded.
The two social workers turned and walked away. One remarked to her colleague: "You know the person that did this really needs help."
Parent
No more reality cheques please (Score:5, Funny)
What's next? Next thing you know they'll find out it's actually pretty hard to come by child porn, that it's not that easy to build a bomb off Internet instructions or that a "skilled hacker" cannot just infiltrate anything and do anything by typing onto his keyboard for 20 seconds.
Please, don't take our societal innocence away by destroying our misconceptions and delusions about the Internet.
Re:No more reality cheques please (Score:5, Funny)
Internet? What's that?
Surely you mean the Global Child Rape Terror-Tubes, right?
Parent
Re:No more reality cheques please (Score:4, Insightful)
Knowledge is valuable. Ignorance is dangerous. Censorship is unacceptable.
Parent
The internet is safe for children? (Score:4, Insightful)
A few words:
tubgirl
lemonparty
meatspin
goatse
mr. hands
2girls1cup
Do you know how easy it is to stumble across these things? Of course, that does not mean that the government should step in and do the job of a good adult to protect their children... I'm just saying, the internet is not exactly the most kid-safe place.
For instance, I was playing on a counter-strike source server a few days ago. A six year old kid rolled into my server. We regularly have pornographic sprays, adult voice chat, etc... We all tone down how we act when he's in the server. But for every group of people who try to act good around young children on the internet, there will be 100 more groups willing to link them to 4chan.
Do your jobs, you god forsakenly poor parents!
Re:The internet is safe for children? (Score:5, Insightful)
But for every group of people who try to act good around young children on the internet, there will be 100 more groups willing to link them to 4chan.
I think most kids figure out in about 2 minutes on the internet not to click on random links. The ones that don't, deserve what they get.
Experience is the best teacher.
Parent
Re:The internet is safe for children? (Score:5, Funny)
When I was a kid the van was black.
And the candy was stale, like it was from the dollar store. But you had to take it or he wouldn't let you in the van.
Parent
Those aren't even safe (Score:5, Insightful)
for adults.
But seriously sights of nudity and sex will not destroy a child. Parental abuse on the other hand...
I saw porn at age 8 due to discovering a friend's older brother's cache, and I am not a rapist nor would I ever hurt anybody...in fact, the porn was not that interesting until I hit puberty.
All it did was make me realize how much of the world was being hidden from me by adults, and it got me to read some childbirth books in the library to confirm the rumours.
So my theory is beating your children will make them rapists, not porn, because violence is taught best by action and those with bitter hearts will have less mercy.
Parent
Re:Those aren't even safe (Score:4, Insightful)
More "primitive" societies (like our own not much more than 100 years ago) could not afford physical privacy to the degree many of us enjoy now: the children of the time might have been prohibited from mentioning or discussing sex, but they sure as hell knew a lot about it.
Parent
Re:The internet is safe for children? (Score:5, Funny)
I for one, welcome our underage Counter Strike playing overlords.
Parent
It took this long to find out? (Score:4, Interesting)
I mean... isn't that one of the few truths of the internet?
That if children get anywhere near a computer,
sexual predators spy on them through the webcams...
I also enjoy how the attorney general publicly refuted the results when he didn't like them.
I wish I could do that with things I don't want to be true.
Recession? nahh... War? No way.. thats just an exaggeration by liberal media.
Japanese Subways (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen 8 year olds riding Tokyo's subway system solo. The instant any of them show any signs of confusion or distress -- and that's very rare, since their parents teach them how to ride -- any number of genuinely helpful adults (plural) in the vicinity come to their rescue. This is all perfectly normal, and it's entirely within the physical world. Everyone is safe.
The Internet is not even physical. There's always a wire (or wireless connection) separating its participants. Simply combine the Internet with a parent or responsible adult and it's safer (psychologically) than even the Tokyo Metro. (And it's always physically safer.) If government simply concentrated on promoting and supporting good parenting, that'd solve myriad problems. [How about starting by allowing all qualified parent(s), including same-sex parents, to adopt?] The Internet is not a parent any more than a subway car or glass of milk is, so it's ridiculous that any government would try to make the Internet a parent.
Re:Japanese Subways (Score:5, Insightful)
it's ridiculous that any government would try to make the Internet a parent.
Actually, I like the idea. The net is full of fun things your parents will never know about. It's also an excercise in critical thinking. Of course, it's easier to point at the bad things and ban everything.
Also, filtering information is one of the most useful skills a child can learn this millennium.
Parent
Re:Japanese Subways (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking as an ugly lug of a male American, I can say, and I'm probably speaking for a few others, that if there was a random kid in distress in a public, my top priority would be to put a safe distance between myself and the area the kid is in. Exceptions might be made for situations as extreme as obviously being abducted at gun or knife point. Other than that I dare not risk the cops-and-lawyer-on-conference-call-speed-dial response enough parents have.
The poetic injustice of the whole situation is that in their mindless quest to protect their kids from everything they've actually made it more dangerous for their kids. The only random people likely to willingly interact with their kid are "the bad people" because the non-bad people don't want to get slapped with being a pedophile/molester/deviant. Sort of like the moron out west who is suing someone who tried to rescue them from a possibly life threatening situation. I help you, you sue me, my life is ruined, you live happily ever after. I don't help you, you die, I live. Great precedent to establish.
Parent
Mod Up! (Score:5, Interesting)
It is very sad that our society has come to this, and there is no doubt whatever that it is the fault of the women. I don't mind saying that: I deal with stupid bitches every day.
Parent
Re:Mod Up! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not prepared to let your half of the species take all the credit for that one - there's more than enough men fearmongering the same issue. The thing is really caused by the media and politicians beating it up far out of proportion - while it's absolutely horrible that it does happen, the instances of child molestation by a stranger are statistically extremely rare, and there are really much more likely things to be worrying about (like the general decline in altruism for fear of this sort of bullshit). Unfortunately, though, these types of stories make great news articles (because everyone's in agreement) and shortly thereafter great bandwagons for politicians to jump on (see the previous reason), so that's what people's attention is focused on. It was a wise (wo)man that said that one of humanity's greatest foes is an inability to really comprehend statistics.
Parent
Re:Japanese Subways (Score:5, Insightful)
It's really too bad that you're that afraid. That society has somehow put so much fear in you that you're afraid of helping a child.
In all likelihood any child who has lost her or his parents is far more scared than you.
If you ever find yourself reconsider the "I don't help children because it puts me at risk" policy, here's some pointers that might make it a little less frightening for you:
1. Respect the child's personal space. You don't have to touch the child, just stand back a few feet and ask if everything is all right, or if they know where their parents are. Where did they last see their parents?
2. Get someone else involved. Ask another stranger if they've seen the child's parents. It doesn't matter whether you think the other stranger may have actually seen the parents. The point is that you're no longer a strange, single guy talking to a kid. Now you're a strange, single guy and someone else. If it makes you feel better, try asking a cute, elderly woman for help. Grandma probably won't hurt you. And she might have better ideas on comforting the child too.
3. If nobody else is immediately around, ask the child to stay where they are while you go look for help. Assure the child that you won't go out of their sight, and that you'll keep an eye on them to make sure they're okay too.
4. There's probably someone who works at the place you found the lost child who can help. Find someone official. A store employee, a security guard.
5. If the child starts to yell at you to stay away or pulls a gun or dirty needle or something, just keep going. Leave the child alone but you should still let someone else know that a child is in distress.
The point is to use some common sense. Don't threaten the child by invading their space. Don't try to be inconspicuous. Drawing attention to the situation is the exact opposite effect that anyone dangerous to children would want. Why would someone who wants to kidnap a child draw attention to them self that way?
I've helped a few lost kids find their parents. It usually doesn't take very long as parents are generally eager to find their children once lost. And every single time the parents expressed genuine gratitude.
Parent
Thanks, but... (Score:4, Insightful)
It is not about scaring the child, and it is not about giving the child false impressions, etc. In fact, it is not about the child at all. It is about the adults.
If you do not understand this dilemma, then you have been living a sheltered life. Wake up.
Parent
Re:Japanese Subways (Score:5, Informative)
There was a story on the news last winter. A guy stopped and offered a ride to a girl that was walking to the bus stop on a cold morning. Yes, he stopped, asked if she needed a ride, then drove off when told "no" and didn't press or such. And when the child told someone, they decided they needed to identify this person and have the police interview them. Not because they committed a crime, but because males are not allowed to offer to help children of any kind. When there is a mention of such an incident on multiple TV chanels and the newspaper and they state the police want to "talk" to him, though no law was broken, then the system is broken. Someone broke our society. I want to call in a warranty repair.
Parent
Richard Blumenthal needs a new job (Score:5, Insightful)
My kids have been on the internet since a age of 2 (each).
Yes, the browser was pointed to Disney or Sesame Street, but they learned to go where they wanted to go. My oldest had the lock Netscape, but around 5yr I came one day found she had found away to URL prompt. So from that day forward I have left the browsers unlocked. My youngest first words would to the effect of "mom-dot-see-oh-em'.
Yes, I check on kids usage via firewall logs from time to time, but find nothing wrong. I even enter their rooms to see what they are doing (but VNC is easier).
My wife while telling about the birds and bees, also give the kids on-line lessons as well. Showing what happens when you mis-type some kids site names and showing how to get out of the mistake.
It is up to us to raise our kids.
It is up the Richard Blumenthals of the world to find a new job and let us raise our kids!
Fear is a tool of control (Score:5, Insightful)
Those who have aggressively pushed the issue of the dangerous Internet, such as Connecticut's attorney general Richard Blumenthal, are less than happy with the report.
Of course, because without fear it is far more difficult to control people.
The Internet is not a Baby Sitter (Score:5, Insightful)
The Internet isn't a baby sitter any more than videos/DVDs. Responsible parents should monitor their children's media consumption and teach them about being critical, separating fantasy from reality etc.
My kids are too small to use a computer for now, but once they become big enough I'm not going to just let them browse at their leisure. I'm going to monitor them by first being there with them, and once it seems they are OK on their own I'm going to be in the same room. Only much later will I allow them to browse on their own, and even them I'm going to reserve the rights to monitor their logs.
Parents should get a grip and deal with the fact that getting kids involves parenting and responsibility. Not just media. I'm responsible for seeing to it that they exercise enough, eat healthily, brush their teeth, go to bed in time... That's the way it works.
It doesn't matter... (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone who thinks such a study will change the hearts and minds of people is naive at best. Consider that:
-- Human beings have a strong inclination to cling to the anecdotal, the intuitive, the "obvious." There is a dearth of ability to look at things in a well-rounded, complete, scientific manner or to allow facts to override innate prejudices.
-- Never forget that many of the "think of the children" campaigns are not about "the children" at all -- the kids are just a convenient, emotional peg on which to hang the desire to ban or sanitize things for all of us.
-- Facts are simply not viewed as "facts" when they conflict with a strongly held belief, most especially one based at least in part on religious grounds.
These factors rear their ugly heads time and time again. Every yardstick shows that the War on Drugs is a failure, and actually counterproductive, yet the notion of legalizing/decriminalizing those substances (and shifting money and resources away from law enforcement and punishment, and towards education, prevention, and treatment) is anathema because "using drugs is wrong." Climate change is a fact that must be dealt with, but you will find countless naysayers who either have their own interests to protect (the oil companies, big business), or have such a limited and narrow understanding of the phenomenon that every colder than average event, trend, or season in isolated areas (such as what has been happening this winter in some parts of the U.S.) is instantly seen as "proof" that no such change is taking place. In the same manner, studies such as the one cited will not deter many individuals from believing that scads of ogreish perverts are stalking our children and that the "Internets" are a cesspool of danger.
Until and unless evolution produces more humans capable of accepting fact over emotion, of embracing the scientifically proven in lieu of the simplistically observed, of seeing the big picture and not focusing on isolated exceptions to the rule, then we shall continue to have studies like this marginalized or outright ignored. Maybe someday...don't hold your breath.
Huh?!?! (Score:5, Funny)
machine full of adware that pops up each minute trying to sell him viagra or one night stand services
But... But... I thought that WAS Windows?! ;)
Parent