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Work Progresses On 10,000 Year Clock
Posted by
timothy
on Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:09 AM
from the artifexian-contrapulation dept.
from the artifexian-contrapulation dept.
KindMind writes "CNet has pictures of a planned 10,000 year clock to be built in eastern Nevada by the Long Now Foundation. From the article: 'Running under its own power, the clock is an experiment in art, science, and engineering. The six dials on the face of this machine will represent the year, century, horizons, sun position, lunar phase, and the stars of the night sky over a 10,000-year period. Likely to span multiple generations and evolutions in culture, the thinking and design put into the monument makes it a moving sculpture as beautiful as it is complex.' This was reviewed on Slashdot in 2005. Really cool pictures, including one of a mechanical 'binary computer' that converts the pendulum into positions on the dial."
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A Clock That Runs for 10,000 Years 438 comments
Justin Blanton writes "Discover magazine is running an article about a clock designed to run accurately for 10,000 years. It's essentially a "future-proof" clock that blurs the line between art and functionality through advanced engineering. From the article: 'Everything about this clock is deeply unusual. For example, while nearly every mechanical clock made in the last millennium consists of a series of propelled gears, this one uses a stack of mechanical binary computers capable of singling out one moment in 3.65 million days. Like other clocks, this one can track seconds, hours, days, and years. Unlike any other clock, this one is being constructed to keep track of leap centuries, the orbits of the six innermost planets in our solar system, even the ultraslow wobbles of Earth's axis.'"
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Ten thousand year waranty (Score:5, Funny)
I betcha it breaks 6 months after the warranty expires.
Re:Ten thousand year waranty (Score:4, Funny)
I betcha it breaks 6 months after the warranty expires.
No worries, you would have lost the receipt!
Parent
Re:Ten thousand year waranty (Score:5, Funny)
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Again, we're talkin' Best Buy here. The basic warranty is 90 days. The extended warranty for the rest of the 10,000 years cost $OMGTHATSALOTOFMONEY.
And they won't sell you the clock without the warranty. "Nope, sorry, fresh out, we got a really small allocation from the distribution center. I think you passed the guy who bought the last one walking out of the store as you were walking in. Check at the other store (20 miles) across town. Kthxbye."
ha ha ha (Score:5, Interesting)
This modern-day Stonehenge will be scavenged for parts and resources long before 10,000 years. Much like how the original Stonehenge was.
Re:ha ha ha (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re:ha ha ha (Score:5, Informative)
That's why one of the design considerations is avoiding valuable materials. This is nontrivial -- materials with good corrosion and wear resistance tend to be pricey. Obviously the clock won't be made of anything as low value as stone, but it is a consideration.
It's a big problem: build something pretty, and it becomes an object of desire, even to have a small part, and people will take. Build something that will last a long time, and it needs to be resistant to weathering, and therefore valuable, and people will take. Build something that has a function, it will be a source of political power to control it, and people who do not control it will try to destroy it. The engineering is only one part of the problem.
The other thing I worry about is that the design tolerances are going to be difficult to maintain. Anything that will last 10,000 years will experience seismic activity, no matter where you put it. Few large structures can withstand being shaken while retaining high tolerances. I've spent a fair bit of my youth around buildings that were only 2500-3000 years old (in Greece), and by and large, they were not in very good condition, even when not scavanged for building materials. We do not understand how to build structures to resist corrosion and weathering on millenial time scales -- that does not mean we shouldn't try, just that we aren't good at it, yet.
Parent
Re:ha ha ha (Score:4, Informative)
We *didn't* understand that thousands of years ago. Today we have much better materials. Nickel, for instance, is much harder and more resistant to corrosion than the bronze that was used in ancient Greece. Marble and sandstone will show significant wear in a few decades if used in stairsteps, no wonder those old buildings are so worn out.
Parent
Re:ha ha ha (Score:5, Informative)
We *didn't* understand that thousands of years ago. Today we have much better materials. Nickel, for instance, is much harder and more resistant to corrosion than the bronze that was used in ancient Greece. Marble and sandstone will show significant wear in a few decades if used in stairsteps, no wonder those old buildings are so worn out.
You're proposing to build stairs out of nickel? The Ancient Greeks were actually really good architects and civil engineers. Quite very good, if you take the time to study their techniques. There are buildings that are largely intact and have not moved, one stone relative to another, more than 1cm or so, over 3000 years (the Mycenean behive tombs), but they are rare among the buildings that still remain. These are just the buildings, I'm talking about, walls, floor, sometimes roofs. Forget complicated, moving mechanisms.
We are currently building few, if any, structures that are intended to last at the century scale. Most built form is intended to last at the decadal scale. We utterly lack expertise at the millennial scale -- although, as stated above, that does not mean we should not TRY. Just that it's hard.
And I'm not convinced at all that we have superior materials now than we did 2000 years ago for this purpose. Steel? Won't last. Stainless alloys? Corrosion still builds up over long time scales, and it's too valuable. Nickel? Valuable. Aluminum alloys? Still corrode. Valuable. Etc.
The only materials that won't oxidize at those time scales are those that are already oxidized. SiO2 (quartz, glass). CaCO3 (marble). FeOx (oxidized iron, but it's structurally worthless).
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Stone is low-value. We use it only in certain building applications and low-value decoration and we have lots of it and know where to find lots more. The only reason ancient buildings were scavenged is because stone was the primary building material during those times.
Re:ha ha ha (Score:5, Insightful)
If they form a monastery around the clock it may survive. The monastery need not be religious, it just needs people who are willing to carry on the original vision. I'd bet there are enough people who would be willing to donate a year, or more, of their lives to maintaining something that was designed to last 10,000 years. A sort of "carrying the flame" kind of altruism. The monastery would be devoted to seeing that we don't forget how to manufacture things and as part of its mission, it could be continually rebuilding the clock. The Japanese have some Shinto temples they've routinely destroyed and rebuilt every 20 years. [japan-guide.com]
Parent
Re:ha ha ha (Score:5, Interesting)
There is a great solution to this: Just make it totally deadly radioactive for the next 10,000 years. ^^
If it were me, who had to build it, I would do exactly that. I would make the only way to look at it, to use binoculars. With a large deadly zone around it. I would make it so radioactive, that it would glow in the night, for the first 1000 years or so. I would make it a legend. Something that is above religion. Above governments. Something that the two sides of the biggest war in those 10,000 years will value so much that they could never destroy it. And the radioactivity would keep more primitive thieves off of it.
Parent
How about a non-powered clock? (Score:4, Interesting)
How about a non-powered clock that used the positions of the sun, moon, and stars to tell the time?
We already have a version [wikipedia.org]? that works for about half a day in most parts of the world, and 24 hours during the summers near the poles.
Another option:
A clock that simply reads the remaining amount of radioactive material in a sample. Use the radiation to drive the device.
Re:How about a non-powered clock? (Score:4, Informative)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Reading the amount of radioactivity in a sample to a precision of even 1 day in 3.6 million is nontrivial. Doing it with a device that will survive 3.6 million days while being exposed to said radiation is even more so.
Building a clock that lasts 3.6 million days is not a project for a single day, let alone the five minutes spent on a slashdot comment.
Inspiration for "Anathem" (Score:5, Informative)
Neal Stephenson's novel Anathem was inspired by the work and philosophy of the Long Now Foundation.
In brief: The narrator and many of the characters are members of a scholarly order which separates itself from the distractions of the outside world. Their monk-like existence is bound by many rules and rituals. Many of these center around the "winding" and tending of an immense clock.
Not a book for everyone, but I found it entertaining and intriguing.
A 54 years old 25,753 year mechanical clock exists (Score:5, Informative)
This mechanical clock was completed 54 years ago. It has a 25,753 year cycle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_Olsen's_World_Clock [wikipedia.org]
(And it had to be completely renovated after 40 years...)
The End is Near (Score:5, Interesting)
If you doubt that will happen, take a good look at the Mayan calendar.
12009 (Score:5, Funny)
THE WORLD IS GOING TO END IN 12009
THE AMERICANS PREDICTED IT
Re:12009 (Score:5, Interesting)
Lol, yeah, I can even see that happening.
Plus, if I understand the device, then it's powered by a couple huge weights slowly falling down a screw. Whatever future society encounters it may not fully understand it, and based on the "Doomsday myth" might assume something is supposed to happen when the weights reach the bottom. There'll be a whole society of people who want to find out, and on that auspicious day they'll travel up to the mountain and have a big party and sit around speculating what'll happen. Will a secret passage open up containing the wisdom of the ancients? Will the whole thing collapse as if mimicking the destruction that will soon engulf the world? Then the moment finally comes, the bells sound one final time, the weights settle at the bottom of the machine... and it stops moving. That's it. They wait around for a while, but still nothing happens. They all leave, and one is heard to mutter "Whoever these Society of the Long Now people were, they're a bunch of jerks."
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
So we need to design it so that a door opens and a sign pops out saying some form of "Ha!"
Tower of the Winds is not 10,000 years old (Score:5, Informative)
10000 binary years ? (Score:3, Funny)
And I understand binary !
--
There are 10 types of people in the world : Those who understand binary, and those who don't...
Re:10,000 years (Score:5, Interesting)
For the clock, or for the human race?
Parent
Re:10,000 years (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:10,000 years (Score:4, Funny)
Perhaps if more people stopped to consider the future that far in advance, our odds would improve. And perhaps the mere existence of such a clock would encourage a few to do so.
Ah that's crazy. Any year now, the Yellowstone supervolcano is going to blow, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it. The world will be plunged into a dark ice ages, and that will be the end of us.
Parent
Re:10,000 years (Score:5, Funny)
For example, the Mayan clock has a digit rollover in December of 2012, and that kind of forward thinking has allowed the Mayans to become one of the dominant cultures in the Western... oh, wait.
Parent
Re:10,000 years (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
The Ancient Nevadans (Score:5, Funny)
Children, the ancient Nevadans were a race of people known for their great engineering skills and their faith in the God Roulette, a god that they believed would judge people, punishing them or rewarding them. It is said that with a wave of the hand, the King of the Nevadans could cause a great temple to crash to the ground and then raise a new one up that very day.
The Nevadan culture built this clock, it will run out in 3 years. They were known for their prophecy. They must have known something we don't. The world will end in the year 12,012. This is off course, a significant number...
Taken from a lecture at the Art Bell Elementary School in the year 12,009.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:10,000 years (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:10,000 years (Score:4, Funny)
What's six times nine?
54
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
They should leave a message that says "reset after 10,000 years" repeated in all known written languages.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The Mayan calendar doesn't "run out" in 2012... it merely goes through the equivalent of what we have with the Y10k bug... when date recording will move on to another digit to count the number of years.
You just need another digit in the "long count" for the Mayan calendar to keep the system going for another couple of millennia.
I would have to assume (and based on how they use dates that the Long Now Foundation is aware of this) that this proposed clock is going to take the Y10k bug seriously and compensate
Re:10,000 years (Score:4, Interesting)
Just look at the Antikythera Machine [antikythera-mechanism.gr].
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, ever wonder if Noah was a geneticist? How else are you going to fit all of those beasties on a boat?
Re:10,000 years (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Errr (Score:4, Insightful)
Sometimes the term 'computer' does not literally mean the electronic thing plugged into the wall under your desk running Linux.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Errr (Score:5, Informative)
As opposed to a non-binary computer?
Yes [wikipedia.org]
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Re:Errr (Score:4, Interesting)
Also, yes [wikipedia.org].
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
And yes again [wikipedia.org].
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Leap Seconds (Score:5, Insightful)
Try reading TFA:
Due to the elliptical orbit of Earth, variations in the absolute time kept by the pendulum and solar time can vary by as much as +/- 15 minutes each year. The Equation of Time Cam measures the difference in these two times and recalibrates the clock, while also correcting for the Earth's axis wobble and 1 second per century decrease in speed.
...
Sunlight striking a wire will allow this solar synchronizer to make minute adjustments and realign the clock's absolute time pendulum with true solar time.
> someone's going to look foolish in a few thousand years when their clock is off.
That's wrong at so many levels, but I'll just say that it's better to miss a few seconds over 10,000 years than to miss your life by doing nothing with it.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Building things to last.... (Score:4, Informative)
This is not true. It's just that the working class consumers want a low price before anything else.
In an "open" market and a class based society, quality will deteriorate to the lowest the consumers are willing to tolerate, because that maximises profits for the seller.
That's what Karl Marx discussed and why he rejected consumerism, decades before consumerism was rediscovered and embraced by the conservatives.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The point of this clock isn't the accurate keeping of time, rather it is to create dreams for the living, of a time long after their own death.