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US Army Will Upgrade To Windows Vista
Posted by
Soulskill
on Fri May 22, 2009 07:14 PM
from the your-tax-dollars-at-work dept.
from the your-tax-dollars-at-work dept.
MojoKid writes "While many organizations are preparing for an upgrade to Windows 7, the US Army is upgrading to Windows Vista. The upgrade will include getting rid of all the Office 2003 programs and installing Office 2007 in its place, and is scheduled for a Dec. 31 completion date. Half the Army's computers (they have 744,000 desktop units) have Office 2007 so far, and 13 percent are on Vista, which was released in January 2007. Windows 7 is supposed to launch before year's end, so the Army will be fully on Vista sometime after Microsoft's next-generation OS is already launched."
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Doh! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Doh! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Doh! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Doh! (Score:4, Funny)
Look how long it took Vista to get stable.
Who said it was stable yet?
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Re:Doh! (Score:5, Informative)
Vista is perfectly stable, and any insinuation to the contrary is incorrect.
I use Vista on several machines, and almost never have to reboot, and never crash. Uptime is 24/7.
Since SP1, Vista has been remarkably stable. I do development, and even when software crashes, the OS stays up and running.
I find Vista more stable than XP.
Vista got a horrible reputation out of the gate (and it was pretty well deserved), but since SP1, and as long as you run on sufficient hardware with mature drivers, it's an OS I like significantly better than XP. Sure, it took me some time to get used to the New UI (just as it took me a while to get used to XP after Windows 2000), but right now, any remaining slams against Vista are mostly lazy and uninformed.
Given the way the Military operates, it takes probably years to certify a new software acquisition. They've obviously gone through that work with Vista, and are satisfied enough to roll it out. It's likely they'll begin evaluating Win7 soon after it is released, and will likely upgrade to that in a couple of years or so.
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Re:Doh! (Score:5, Funny)
Activities include browsing, gaming, running Matlab (although small
whooh! I read this as "running a methlab"
ae
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Re:Doh! (Score:4, Insightful)
Not sure about the army, but it is (now) stable enough for my purposes, especially on an AMD Athlon 3000+ based system.
I'm sure any OS that can stay up for two weeks can be used to manage nuclear weapons.
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Re:Doh! (Score:5, Funny)
I had a Win 98 system like that. It was sitting under my desk at work and I used it as a foot rest. The uptime that thing had - you wouldn't believe. Granted, the only thing that computer did was keep my legs elevated and my feet warm. But still, it was up 24/7 for well over a year. Maybe Microsoft will use my story in one of their commercials.
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Re:Doh! (Score:4, Interesting)
As I recall, Windows 98 wouldn't have been able to do that. Something about the tick timer overflowing or something that wasn't fixed until NT.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
They will discover that Software may become a national security risk
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah, but have you ever had lunch with those MS sales reps?
How many soldiers do you think would say no to Vista if they got a handjob under the table while eating filet mignon out of the deal?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I would suspect that over some nice luncheons and dinners that the US Army would have been "persuaded" to upgrade to Vista and not 7. This kind of crap happens all the time in government agencies that don't have to balance their funding sheets.
In large corporations things are vetted and validated mostly*, but for things like the Army it's all about "chain-o-command". This seems to breed corruption from the highest levels down, unfortunately the soldiers are the ones who bare the brunt of the issues - just l
Re:Doh! (Score:5, Insightful)
Moreover, Microsoft's abandonment of support for XP is a real issue to them. If you're ever in charge of a large number of computers, you may one day understand that.
This is the part of the issue I have a real problem with. I don't like the idea that the U.S. Army is at the mercy of a private entity's marketing strategy. I want rugged long term support for my nation's military. This could be easily achieved with either an in-house or open source based solution. Relying on the release schedule of one specific private entity just to keep functioning seems to be the very definition of folly. I cannot see any reason why SELinux isn't the standard installation for military PCs. It's open, it'll be maintained as long as the Army maintains interest in it, and it's as secure as a fully functional machine gets (IMHO)...
But I digress, this isn't about what they COULD do, this is about what they ARE doing; the U.S. Army is putting itself in a compromising situation under a multinational entity. I cannot fathom how this can be justified, let alone swept aside with corporate mumbo-jumbo about "getting things done". It's the "getting things done" department of any business that releases shoddy products to meet artificial deadlines, only after the "do it right" department has had time to look things over for awhile does the product get stable (if it ever does). This isn't acceptable for something like the military where you need your product to work right, the first time, every time, for as long as it needs to.
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Free vista! (Score:5, Funny)
Cool, am gonna keep an eye out for harddrives on ebay now, might just come with a free copy of vista installed!
Re:Free vista! (Score:4, Funny)
No, he missed the joke, it's just coincidence that he tried to make the exact same joke in his reply.
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Obelix was right. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Obelix was right. (Score:5, Informative)
All of the Latin I know, I learned from Asterix, so for those who know even less than I do (there must be at least one), SPQR is the Senate and People of Rome, SPQA in this case is of course the Senate and People of America. What santax is referring to is Obelix's often repeated phrase of "these Romans are crazy", and applying it to Americans instead. Perhaps now he won't be modded Offtopic :)
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You can't wait forever.. (Score:5, Insightful)
You need to draw a line somewhere. Windows Vista is a good move because it's been available for some time and they've had enough time to test it out with whatever software they might use. XP is getting more difficult with new machines, and if you want to stay on a Microsoft platform it's the way to go.
Windows 7 isn't so much different than Vista in terms of the operating system itself, and it's more similar to XP in interface than Windows 7.
I don't understand what the issue is here. I guess some people don't understand how IT works in organizations with more than a few hundred users.
Re:You can't wait forever.. (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, and the Army seems to have drawn the line with a Ford Pinto.
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Re:You can't wait forever.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Add to that the usual military BS. I did a 4 year stint in the Navy and if I remember correctly it takes 7 signatures just to go on vacation. I can't imagine how many signatures you'd need to roll an OS to 744,000 desktops (Geez that's a huge number. Can that be right?)
Aside from the time it takes to get things done in a huge organization you have the simple fact that Windows 7 is brand new. I wouldn't suggest my mom roll out W7 before SP1. Certainly the friggin military wouldn't do that either.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Absolutely right, I'm not sure why anyone would think adopting bleeding edge on a huge rollout would be a good idea.
Re:You can't wait forever.. (Score:5, Funny)
You need to draw a line somewhere. The Titanic is a good move because it's been available for some time and they've had enough time to test it out with whatever seas they might use. The Olympic is getting more difficult with new cruise tours, and if you want to stay on a White Star Line platform it's the way to go.
The Queen Victoria isn't so much different than The Titanic in terms of the hull design itself, and it's more similar to The Olympic in interface than The Queen Victoria.
I don't understand what the issue is here. I guess some people don't understand how oceanic shipping works in organizations with more than a few hundred users.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
This is such an incredibly bad idea. To stick to a less-granular must-"keep moving"-just-because mindset is massively boneheaded considering how many things you aren't safe assuming these days with new software.
To try and justify that by saying new hardware is getting more difficult to get working with XP, that begs questioning with the following points:
1. Most hardware manufacturers without their heads up their asses are still writing stable drivers for XP and even NT/2000 (not quite that different anyway
Re:You can't wait forever.. (Score:5, Insightful)
I use Linux, Windows, and even some MacOS on my Hackintosh machine. As an IT professional, I think it's important to have some exposure to all of them.
If you can get by on Linux, then that's great! I love Linux. I really like the new KDE stuff they're doing quite a bit. But I use Windows too, and it's fine.
So you had problems with Vista on a machine or two and you got "OMG PISSED OFF M$ SUCKS!!" That happens when you install a new operating system on older hardware sometimes. Two years later now, it's a lot better. Better hardware support, better software support.
Go ahead, keep ranting on. I try to take a more pragmatic approach.
PS. I hated the first implementations of PnP. I much preferred cards with jumpers because you never had a problem. Now, with PCI, APIC and reliable IRQ sharing it's no longer a problem. It's called progress.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't ever install anything ms before sp2 (Score:3, Insightful)
Vista just hit sp2
The US Air Force rollout (Score:5, Insightful)
At the Air Force clinic I work at, all the workstations are XP, and Office 2007 was pushed on to every computer last January. 2003 worked great, 2007 drags ass. Everyone's been having problems with templates breaking, macros requiring endless confirmations, and just plain trying to find where the hell everything is in that damned ribbon. Not fun.
The only Vista computers I've seen were down at the Education and Training center for test-taking. I can't imagine why they replaced them, the test program we use could fit comfortably on a Windows 98 box (and I think that's what it was originally programmed for). Nevertheless, the powers that be have decided that a monochromatic visual basic simple-text-and-button testing application requires dual core Vista machines with 2 gigs of ram each.
Your tax dollars at work.
Re:The US Air Force rollout (Score:4, Interesting)
Wow.. my experience with Office is totally different. I used OOo exclusively for the last 2-3 years until I got Office 2K7 at work. After fiddling with it a bit I almost immediately fell in love with it; I found it so easy to use (the ribbon just clicks for me for everything).
I was sure I'd still use OOo for everything but MS Word and Excel load faster and I find muchmuchmuch more intuitive to use when compared to OOo. Don't get me wrong; I hate myself for it - I love OOo and am all about open data formats, but really when it comes to Getting Shit Done, MS Office works better for me (even writing this I sound like an MS shill and assume modding down is in my immediate future, but if you read my post history you'll see I'm not).
I am farrrr from an Office power-user and I find Office 2k7 the easiest thing for me to get the most out of at a high level.
Re: Outlook - I run it non-stop from the moment my computer boots to the moment I need to reboot for a Windows update (usually a week :), with no problems at all due to memory leaks or performance issues. I'm running it connected to Zimbra so it's using the Outlook plugin to talk to the Zimbra server stuff; maybe it sucks more under Exchange.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And they made it very difficult to assign keystrokes...I used to easily map a shortcut for "Paste Unformatted." Had to record a VB macro to do it in 2K7.
Not to nitpick, but it's trivially easy to assign hotkeys. The problem is that there is no pre-existing "Paste Unformatted" command - a problem which existed in Office '03 as well.
no surprise (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows 7 basically = vista + a heap of untested code and new features.
Vista has been out for 3 years now and is a "known quantity". SP2 is out soon, and many people live by the policy with MS software of "wait for SP2".
The military deciding to roll out Windows 7 now would be rather foolish. They need to migrate OFF XP if they want continued support in 2010, so really, its either vista or Linux, etc. Like it or not, Vista is the path of least resistance.
Besides, vista isn't as bad as the reputation anyway... in the 3 years I've run it, none of the problems have been insurmountable, and there are plenty of benefits over XP. No one cares that it may be 5% slower at foo task when you're running it on hardware that is 500% faster than the gear you replaced.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Mod parent up.
Also, the Army is paying attention; both XP and Office 2K3 are in extended support. Microsoft's policy is that they will provide security updates.....unless the problem is going to cost them too much to fix.
For the most part, Microsoft has been pretty good about it, but they didn't fix the RPC vulnerability while NT4 was in extended support -- too hard.
Furthermore, if MS is serious about upgrading every Vista license to Windows 7, the Army really doesn't really lose anything. In fact, the
I like vista (Score:5, Interesting)
I know there are going to be dozens (if not hundreds) of vista jokes about this article but I still don't know why everyone hates vista so much.
This is going to sound really weird, and I am not making this up. I'm a Linux user (kubuntu at the moment, used to use slackware and I'm thinking of installing fedora) and I have an old mac that I use regularly too. I wasn't too fond of XP, and I'm not a huge fan of microsoft either because of their dirty business tactics. I got Vista (with sp1) cheap because I'm a uni student. The first thing I did before buying Vista was to make sure that all the parts I had were compatible, and luckily they were as I only just built the computer. Anyway, so I installed vista expecting there to be a million problems, I had a preconceived negative opinion of vista and I was actually quite surprised. Its stable, fast (on my computer, at least) and I'm quite enjoying using it.
However, I never used Vista before SP1 and I didn't have the driver problems. And I guess because I don't use XP that I wasn't missing any of XP's features.
Anyway, I guess my experience isn't the usual experience. Sure, I'm not going to make Vista my main machine (I love kubuntu and os x too much to do that :)) but I don't regret installing Vista.
h8 vista h8h8h8 (Score:4, Insightful)
my hatred of vista is based off the fact that there is a ton of stupid crap that is loaded on the OS that does nothing but look cool and slow your machine down. I don't want any fucking Aero-transparent window bullshit. I want an os that is like a formula 1 car: fast as hell and without a single non-essential part.
Between win 2k and win7(~8 years) the memory footprint of the OS has grown from ~100mb to ~500mb. What real utility do I get for all that? They still have not bought out winzip and winrar and integrated it in the OS, which is way more basic and useful than services to 'detect unused icons on my desktop'. Using ISO images is pretty much an accepted standard these days, and how much support is there for them in vista? But there is a list of idiotic services running as long as your arm on a fresh install of vista. (Fun game, what percentage of them do you actually fully understand what they are doing on/for your system? I'm a professional windows programmer, and I understand perhaps 75%, wtf?)
No, most people will probably tell you that vista seems to run just fine. MS has spent a lot of time turning their OS into something that is easy and pretty to use. I use the OS for a living. I don't have time to fuck around all day with pretty 'abc block' themes that make the desktop animate windows when they are closed.
I suspect that a lot of people hate vista for what it isn't as much as for what it is.
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Re:h8 vista h8h8h8 (Score:4, Informative)
my hatred of vista is based off the fact that there is a ton of stupid crap that is loaded on the OS that does nothing but look cool and slow your machine down. I don't want any fucking Aero-transparent window bullshit. I want an os that is like a formula 1 car: fast as hell and without a single non-essential part.
You realize that Aero doesn't slow your machine down, right? The processing is offloaded to the GPU. Now, if you turn Aero off, then you might see a performance hit.
Between win 2k and win7(~8 years) the memory footprint of the OS has grown from ~100mb to ~500mb.
And memory capacities and prices have decreased even faster.
I use the OS for a living. I don't have time to fuck around all day with pretty 'abc block' themes that make the desktop animate windows when they are closed.
And yet people keep going on about how great Compiz is.
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Don't be fooled! (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, like 7 isn't Vista rebranded with a new task (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, like 7 isn't Vista rebranded with a new taskbar.
Even all drivers are compatible.
"Upgrade" (Score:3, Funny)
I don't think "upgrade" means what they think it means.
Save Windows Vista! (Score:4, Funny)
No CHEESE-EATING SURRENDER OS for OUR boys! They know the MILITARY MIGHT of VISTA is what the world needs! FREEDOM ISN'T FREE and VISTA IS FREEDOOM!
Join SAVE VISTA [facebook.com] on Facebook! (Original blog post [today.com].) We want ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE to tell Microsoft to abandon their Windows 7 foolishness and go back to Vista! We have 89 so far. Only 99,911 to go!
Like Chrysler, like Hummer, like Edsel - "Vista" is a name that will be remembered as the greatest operating system in Microsoft's history.
Just Say "No" To Seven -
SAVE VISTA!
You have pulled the trigger... (Score:5, Funny)
Taxpayers money being well spent (Score:5, Interesting)
I should know. I work for a city government and we are getting ready to bring in Sharepoint. No business plan, no requirements documents like are needed for the small web apps I write. We're bringing Sharepoint in because the CIO is a sheep just like 95% of the other CIO's out there. If they see others doing it, they're going to follow suit. Meanwhile, due to budget constraints, our libraries will be open fewer hours. Yep, we've got our priorities in order.
Cyberwar (Score:5, Funny)
Military QA (Score:5, Informative)
The Army probably does the same. Rolling out Vista now is like they started rolling it out on release date. They couldn't have rolled it out any sooner if they wanted to. Same for Windows 7. The earliest they'll see it ok'd for use is probably two years from release. Why people make a big deal out of it? Probably because they're ignorant and want to make a fuss.
Re:Military QA (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd like to preface this comment by saying I don't mean to be snarky, but given the general tone of it people are bound to misinterpret. This is Slashdot, afterall...
How much does the QA cost in terms of money and man-hours? How much is Microsoft billing the US government for 744,000 copies of Vista and Office? It just seems to me that no matter how big of a "discount" Microsoft is giving, you can't beat free. Linux is proven to be secure and stable, even without military QA. I'm sure it would still be put through it, and rightly so, but it would take much less work to get any gaps in Linux sealed up tighter than Windows ever could be.
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Government waste (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Vista in .. (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly my thoughts.
Why in in the name of all that should be secure would the military be using windows of ANY Flavor.
This situation just cries out for SELinux http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selinux [wikipedia.org] which at least has a chance of penetration resistance.
Even if we are talking about pay clerks and supply desk drones, why take this risk and this cost at this time when secure platforms are available for free?
Of course it we are talking strategic or combat systems then we have an severe dereliction of duty issue here, and someone needs a little time out in the brig.
(And, no, don't come around posting about how Windows can be hardened and made secure. That's the "Humvee as Combat Vehicle" argument all over again. Why does the Army need to lean every lesson twice!)
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Re:Doesn't the US Army care about Security (Score:4, Insightful)
On mission-critical systems, they do. But Windows is good enough for probably 95% of what people in the Army do with computers -- spreadsheets, e-mail, presentations, documents.
Just like any other organization. Do you really care that the billing department in your doctor's office is using Word and Excel?
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Because there in some quarters there is the cult-like mentality and most of the rest of people don't know any better. Most office drones with little skill and ambition never used any word processing program before Office and they don't have the will to learn anything.
Really... a huge amount of Office use is simply because of ignorance, sloth, and inertia (as well as Microsoft Zombies that happen to be working in the IT department and management). There are are hundreds of programs that do what Office in a
Re:yes! (Score:4, Funny)
All sarcasm aside, I think this a perfect example of Military Intelligence! ;)
The Russians use Linux, so they figured they'll be incompatible to avoid spying.
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Re:Why ... why ... why ... (Score:4, Interesting)
"In the process, generate a new IT re-education process within the government to train people on Linux and just be rid of Windows ..."
That is workable, just as it was when we switched from green-screen terminals to Windows in the USAF.
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Re:US Army Will Upgrade To Windows Vista (Score:5, Interesting)
The NT kernel has many great features that put it on a par with Unix in terms of security and functionality. As yet, no operating system using the NT kernel has actually used those features. Even UAC is a bizarre hack of a permissive userland, and doesn't use the kernel's security features. It's about as secure as Windows 98, thanks to Microsoft's butchery of the userland in the name of backwards compatibility.
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