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S3 Graphics Fails At Delivering Linux Driver
Posted by
Soulskill
on Sun Feb 15, 2009 09:29 AM
from the patience-is-not-infinite dept.
from the patience-is-not-infinite dept.
Ashmash writes "Phoronix is running a story about S3 Graphics failing to provide Linux support for their Chrome 500 products even though they have announced in press releases going back months that there is Linux support. S3 Graphics has gone as far as advertising OpenGL 3.0 support for Linux and one of their representatives had promised a driver by last December. This situation has been going on for months, but there is no Linux driver at all for the Chrome 500 series."
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Submission: S3 Graphics Fails At Delivering Linux Driver by Anonymous Coward
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Linux: S3 Graphics Responds About Linux Support 114 comments
V!NCENT writes "Phoronix has an update on S3's Linux driver state: 'We are doing an internal build of the Chrome 500 Linux driver to incorporate some of the additional hardware features and upgrades (over the Chrome 400 Series GPUs). If you want to test the Linux now, the Chrome 400 Series drivers also support the Chrome 500 Series since it is a unified driver architecture.'" (This after the beef that Phoronix raised about S3's failure to deliver on promises of better Linux support for the 500 series.)
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S3 is still around? (Score:5, Interesting)
This is news to me...
Pretty bad form to promise drivers and not come up with them. I wonder though, if their products are any good at all? Last S3 stuff (Virge, I think) that I saw was easily crushed by Nvidia and ATI.
Re:S3 is still around? (Score:5, Informative)
I wonder though, if their products are any good at all?
The Original Virge considerably predates the existence of nVidia and when it came out there was nothing even close. It didn't really speed anything up, but it gave a substantial boost to visual effects. It actually tended to come at a frame rate penalty vs. software renderers except on the fastest machines.
Unfortunately S3 never really went anywhere after that, tried valiantly to go out of business several times, and mostly produces shitty integrated graphics. I just did a Windows XP install on a system based around an ASUS motherboard with a VIA chipset and S3 integrated graphics. They seem to work, that's about my only experience with them these days. But certainly S3 has no graphics solutions which will impress anyone. They are solidly at the bottom of the budget bin.
Parent
Re:S3 is still around? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:S3 is still around? (Score:5, Funny)
Personally, S3's biggest recognition in my life was playing Heavy Gear 2 at a LAN. Some putz was putting mortars on us from way the Hell at the far end of the map with impunity. After allegations of cheating and threats of beating, we all found out his Savage4 didn't support prerry much any way of rendering distance fog. He had an infinite viewline.
After further allegations of cheating and rigging, we found out that not only did he not intentionally arrange a corner case to get this screwup, there were no drivers from S3 that could fix it, and S3 had stopped making drivers for his card.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:S3 is still around? (Score:5, Funny)
I was cursed with a Savage4 after having a Voodoo 3 for ages... it quickly became known in our household as the Savage Whore, for the sheer number of times it got fucked one way or another.
The drivers were absymal, the hardware regularly locked up and it got replaced real fast.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Some putz was putting mortars on us from way the Hell at the far end of the map with impunity.
Had that happen to me in Lebanon for a few days. Now I know how they did it!
Re:S3 is still around? (Score:4, Insightful)
Nobody cares about S3 Savage3D. Even people who worked there didn't care (I used to know some.) S3TC didn't save S3 from becoming an also-ran. Texture compression was inevitable. Again, if you had fast hardware the Virge wouldn't slow you down... that much :) And if you tried to get the same results as the Virge (mostly lighting effects) in a software renderer, you'd see your frame rates drop one hell of a lot more than they did with a Virge. I would argue that the TNT is the first consumer graphics accelerator worth a crap, but the Virge did have its uses.
Parent
Re:S3 is still around? (Score:4, Interesting)
I guess it depends on what you define as "worth a crap," but it was the 3Dfx Voodoo chipset and GLQuake that *really* launched the PC as a serious gaming platform
This is a completely fair assessment. It was also something of a nightmare. I was completely blown away with it, but it was a serious annoyance, so serious that I actually bought a PowerVR. I think I still have it, although I don't think I've been static safe since... Once the TNT came out I never looked back. I escaped ATI's 3d stuff entirely (but had had plenty of problems just with Mach32 and Mach64 inconsistencies already) until I got a laptop with Rage Pro, of which it can be said that it is not pure trash. I had a Permedia2 card next which came at a steep price premium and had slightly less performance than a Voodoo 2 card but had about 56% less hassle - and which had real working OpenGL. But that was really a low-end pro card. I had a Riva128 for a moment, subjected it to defenestration when the TNT came out, and have never looked back - nVidia FTW!
nVidia has pulled some serious boners over the years but in general they have delivered the most workable 3d solution, cross-platform and all. I had just discovered what it was like to have money when this stuff was coming out, so I had most of it. I never spent much money on a CPU, so I was pretty familiar with which video cards were more and which were less CPU limited, which was actually a major feature of the 3dfx stuff at the time. But I still curse their name eternally for inventing GLIDE instead of just starting with MiniGL, which would have been a much kinder thing to do to the gaming industry and probably would have resulted in a world without Direct3D.
We can dream, can't we?
Parent
Re:S3 is still around? (Score:5, Informative)
The S3s aren't SUPPOSED to impress anyone...that simply isn't there purpose. I don't know why folks always bring up Nvidia when talking about S3 because they really aren't the same market at all. It is like bring up the Core 2 Quad when talking about a Geode CPU. The S3 is made to be a LOW COST integrated graphics solution. I believe the latest Chrome 5 bumps it up just enough to run Vista with Aero, but gaming isn't something ever meant to do on these chips.
I can say that I have built several office machine running Win2K/XP on S3 and they work quite nicely for that task. They don't generate a lot of heat and thus you can build a nice quiet office machine with it. But it really isn't the same market as ATI/Nvidia. It is the same market as the Intel 945, that is a low cost budget GPU for rendering desktop graphics. Although I believe the last two generations of S3 support offloading some video as well. But for what they do they really aren't bad chips. But I have to say that it is bad form IMHO to promise drivers and not deliver. If I was a Linux user I probably would avoid the company in the future.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The S3s aren't SUPPOSED to impress anyone...that simply isn't there purpose. I don't know why folks always bring up Nvidia when talking about S3 because they really aren't the same market at all. It is like bring up the Core 2 Quad when talking about a Geode CPU. The S3 is made to be a LOW COST integrated graphics solution.
The thing is, both NVIDIA and ATI also have low cost integrated graphics solution offerings, and they are seen much more often than S3. Last time I shopped around for a prebuilt PC (which was like a month ago), I didn't see a single one with S3, cheap or not.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The Original Virge considerably predates the existence of nVidia and when it came out there was nothing even close. It didn't really speed anything up, but it gave a substantial boost to visual effects. It actually tended to come at a frame rate penalty vs. software renderers except on the fastest machines.
Yeah - S3 Virge/DX, the video decelerator. I still have one in a box somewhere. In action games you were better off using software rendering, as you'd get more FPS.
Re:S3 is still around? (Score:4, Informative)
I don't think they are really trying to participate in the gaming/high end of graphics, I think they largely still focus on onboard/handheld/as little as needed to work graphics.
Which, they are still pretty damn good at (usually), although you may know them better as VIA.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The integrated low-end graphics are OK, unless you're using Linux and the driver leaves horizontal lines across your screen, leaving you with no option but the vesa driver (you can guess who's in this situation with a work computer).
TFA's report seems to show a big gap between what marketing wants to happen and what management is really doing. They're at least six months behind on the drivers. That's too bad.
WTF. (Score:4, Informative)
If a driver isn't out on day one, there's no way in hell this should be in a press release. I can only hope that it doesn't make it to any of the boxes.
Bullshit like that shouldn't be legal.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Bullshit like that shouldn't be legal.
Mistakes are made. On the other hand, you and all the other people who bought one expecting Linux support (you are one of those people, right?) can get together and get a class action suit going against them.
S3 has always been a synonym for "avoid" (Score:5, Insightful)
For Linux users, even back to the early 1990s, S3 has been a synonym for "don't buy this graphics card". Even back then, they didn't release specs for their graphics cards, and they didn't even support VESA modes for graphics mode so their cards couldn't be used at all for X.
At least the other two closed graphics cards makers do supply drivers for Linux.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Yep. Wayyyy back when, when I first tried Slackware and couldn't get X to work with my S3 graphics card, my posts were answered with something along the lines of "Get a Riva TNT or an ATI card."
Re:S3 has always been a synonym for "avoid" (Score:4, Interesting)
For Linux users, even back to the early 1990s, S3 has been a synonym for "don't buy this graphics card".
"For Linux users"? I've never heard of any Windows user intentionally buying one, either... the ones who've heard of S3 know them as the company which once marketed a "3D decelerator", a card so slow that a new computer would be better off with software rendering.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yeah, you fucked that decision up. Next time get the low-profile card, bend the frame straight, and secure it with tape. GF440MX was a peach, sure it was slow, but so solid.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Interesting. It sounds like Promise's Linux support: they used to publish customized versions of out-of-date versions of Linux patches that re-arranged your drive numbering without telling anyone and coulldn't be applied against any contemporary kernel source tree.
What NVidia publishes is a fascinating attempt to endrun around the GPL licenses. They publish a binary blob kernel driver, which 'taints' your kernel and legally prevents you from being able to publish it as part of your distribution. And for the
Re: (Score:2)
<tongue-in-cheek>
That's the advantage of using Linux! Anyone can take that source and update it. You have an entire community to help make sure that it works and to maintain it. Don't blame the manufacturer for lack of community support o
Re: (Score:2)
Except that the patches existed to make the kernel compatible with their closed-source code. Without the source for that code there was no way to know why the patches did what they did and so no way to safely "update" it.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I still don't like the binary blob a
Re: (Score:2)
My experience from 1996 is quite the oppiosite. I bought a S3 964 based card after those were on the market for more than a year, and I had to find that XF86 was running in false-color so to say. S3 sent me the printed programming for free by international airmail essentially no questions asked.
It turned out that the problem was the way the external IBM RAMDAC was wired to the S3 chip - easily fixed with a 2 or so lines patch, Back in those days manufacturers of graphics cards dodn't just implement a refer
Maybe it's time to help out (Score:5, Informative)
It may be time to help out The Unichrome Project [sourceforge.net], which produces a driver that works with the older Unichrome and Chrome9 chipsets.
VIA doesn't have much of a history of helping the open source community with specs or source for its S3 graphics cards.
Re: (Score:2)
I thought Via was more known for making crappy products that Linux users shouldn't be buying in the first place. Even if the drivers are good, the hardware was often marginal or bad.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
> Why won't they release specs? I know nothing about graphics hardware. Would releasing
> the specs expose them to corporate espionage of some sort?
It might expose them to lawsuits and/or cancellation of licenses. Many of these outfits don't own all of the "IP" in their chips and/or drivers. They license it from other companies and in doing so agree to some truly amazing restrictions.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The Unichrome Project is completely unrelated to VIA. Just a guy with some Unichrome cards and the community working together to write open source drivers. Don't blame the poor guy, it isn't his fault.
linux graphics cards (Score:2)
So far, currently graphic card is the only serious issue on linux, for me. I'm happy that AMD released open source ATI drivers, but still they are crap. When university asks me what hardware to buy new students for working with yade I tell them - whatever, but make sure that it has nvidia card and shh.. you could consider AMD too ;)
Sometimes a clueless grad student comes and is wondering why yade works like crap, and I see instantly - it's the graphics card. Good for us, that all serious computations are do
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Let's raise this barn! (Score:5, Funny)
I think this simply calls for a really long, over-promising and under-delivering open source driver project in the tradition of Nouveau or anything in DRI produced without commercial support. I look forward to a series of unstable and unusable "releases" which may someday, years from now, result in a shoddy but roughly functional driver.
Maybe some *prominent* linux developers should take some time out of their respective minor IT and sysadmin jobs to create and fully support their very first OpenGL 3.0 driver for this moderately unpopular architecture.
It'll be like a Little Rascals movie, but with more facial hair.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
> I think this simply calls for a really long, over-promising and under-delivering open source driver project in the tradition of Nouveau or anything in DRI produced without commercial support.
As much as I am skeptical of them, Intel seems to be the only company interested in open source drivers. ATI may be making moves in that direction, too, but I am still waiting for results.
As for VIA/S3: at least the specs for some of the chips are out now. Unfortunately, the existing drivers are still some of the w
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
As much as I am skeptical of them, Intel seems to be the only company interested in open source drivers. ATI may be making moves in that direction, too, but I am still waiting for results.
They've actually made very big progress on the release of specifcations, so it's more on the open source side now. The last release of documentation was the R6xx/7xx 3D documentation that arrvied just a few weeks ago, but there's been some demo code released before that. Previously there's been releases of the ISA and various other bits, so people have been working on the drivers for a while. As far as specs is concerned having power management (basic suspend/resume should already be covered, but not during
Turn that frown upside down (Score:2)
This may be a failure for S3, but I think I speak for the entire Linux community when I say:
One less S3 chipset on Linux is a win for most Linux users.
Hopefully there won't be a successor.
Deceptive advertising... (Score:2)
... which I thought was illegal almost everywhere. Maybe the land of the class-action suit already has a solution in place to deal with this type of fraud?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you filed a complaint yet?
Why don't hardware manuf. just drop the specs? (Score:3, Insightful)
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> Yes... the API gives some insight into what the hardware is doing... but not enough to
> reverse engineer the product.
They may have licensed some of that magic sauce from other companies under terms that their lawyers interpret as barring them from releasing the API.
Who cares about S3 graphics (Score:2)
What's their top-of-the-line? Can it beat a mobile Geforce 7300?
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Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)
As I recall, ATI opened the source and specifications for their drivers on September 10, 2007 [linux.com]. How do you figure that ATI is still a closed standard?
Re:Can we not just get fully open specifications? (Score:4, Informative)
We already have that. It's a little company called Intel [intellinuxgraphics.org]
Parent
Re:Can we not just get fully open specifications? (Score:4, Insightful)
Intel graphics chips are fine for pretty much any Linux purpose -- Compiz runs fine, KDE4 runs fine.
They can't compete with NVidia or ATI for playing the latest 3D games, but that's unimportant, because 99.999% of the people who care about the latest 3D games are either playing them on a console or in Windows.
Parent
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Download,com (Score:3, Funny)
Wow, the comments at the end of that article are priceless. Makes this place look like a debating society.
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