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Facebook Scrambles To Contain ToS Fallout
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:55 PM
from the all-your-content dept.
from the all-your-content dept.
Ian Lamont writes "Anger over Facebook's ToS update has forced the company to scramble. Yesterday, a spokesman released a statement that said Facebook has never 'claimed ownership of material that users upload,' and is trying to be more open to users about how their data is being handled. Mark Zuckerberg has also weighed in, stating 'we wouldn't share your information in a way you wouldn't want.' Facebook members are skeptical, however — protests have sprung up on blogs, message boards, and a new Facebook group called 'People Against the new Terms of Service' that has added more than 10,000 members today."
Related Stories
[+]
Your Rights Online: Facebook's New Terms of Service 426 comments
An anonymous reader writes "Chris Walters writes about Facebook's new terms of service. 'Facebook's terms of service (TOS) used to say that when you closed an account on their network, any rights they claimed to the original content you uploaded would expire. Not anymore.
Now, anything you upload to Facebook can be used by Facebook in any way they deem fit, forever, no matter what you do later. Want to close your account? Good for you, but Facebook still has the right to do whatever it wants with your old content. They can even sublicense it if they want.'" Oh no! Now they'll be able to license your super flair goblin poke 25 tag history!
[+]
Facebook Reverts ToS Change After User Uproar 260 comments
rarel writes "CNN and other media outlets report that Facebook reverted their TOS update and went back to using the previous one. 'The site posted a brief message on users' home pages that said it was returning to its previous "Terms of Use" policy "while we resolve the issues that people have raised."' Facebook's controversial changes to its Terms of Service, previously commented on Slashdot, included a mention that (users) 'may remove (their) User Content from the Site at any time. ... However, (they) acknowledge that the Company may retain archived copies of (their) User Content,' triggering a massive uproar from users and privacy groups."
[+]
Your Rights Online: EFF Launches TOS Tracker 65 comments
stoolpigeon writes with this quote from the EFF:
"'Terms of Service' policies on websites define how Internet businesses interact with you and use your personal information. But most web users don't read these policies — or understand that the terms are constantly changing. To track these ever-evolving documents, the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) is launching TOSBack: a 'terms of service' tracker for Facebook, Google, eBay, and other major websites. ... The issue of terms-of-service changes — and how and why they are made — was highlighted earlier this year when Facebook modified its terms of use. Facebook users worried that the change gave the company the right to use members' content indefinitely. After a user revolt, Facebook announced that it would restore the former terms while it worked through the concerns users had raised."
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Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Funny)
As long as they promised, there's nothing to worry about, right?
Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Funny)
I couldn't even type that with a straight face. lol.
Parent
Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Funny)
There's two kinds of people in this world: People who have been fucked over by Mark Zuckerberg and people who will be fucked over by Mark Zuckerberg. More like 1.5, since he takes douchebag viagra and will gladly fuck you over again.
True story -- I saw him at a bar about a year ago, in the men's room of all places. (No, this story doesn't involve eating shit). He was acting like a douchebag, cock of the walk and all, taking a piss and talking on his phone. I punched him in the back of the head as I was leaving. He dropped his blackberry in the fucking urinal, but I didn't stick around to see his reaction.
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Funny)
Wow, so now I understand what happened that night.
Just minding my own business and some jerk punches me in the back of my head. You owe me for a Blackberry. What kind of anonymous coward punches you while you're pissing?
Glad you can ID people from the back of their heads.
Parent
Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Insightful)
Nothing is broken. It works fine so long as you are CAREFUL.
Who in the hell moderates so fast that they miss their target option? Slow down, buddy, you're gonna give yourself a heart-attack.
Parent
Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Informative)
Proved that they can't be trusted not to stab with one hand while they stroke with another, that is.
I don't understand why they even bothered with that blog posting.
Nothing he said contradicts the new TOS and his post generally boils down to:
"trust us not to enforce the plain language of the TOS."
Parent
Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Informative)
Looks like the blog was taken down. Here it is in full (Google cache still has it stored):
A couple of weeks ago, we updated our terms of use to clarify a few points for our users. A number of people have raised questions about our changes, so I'd like to address those here. I'll also take the opportunity to explain how we think about people's information.
Our philosophy is that people own their information and control who they share it with. When a person shares information on Facebook, they first need to grant Facebook a license to use that information so that we can show it to the other people they've asked us to share it with. Without this license, we couldn't help people share that information.
One of the questions about our new terms of use is whether Facebook can use this information forever. When a person shares something like a message with a friend, two copies of that information are created--one in the person's sent messages box and the other in their friend's inbox. Even if the person deactivates their account, their friend still has a copy of that message. We think this is the right way for Facebook to work, and it is consistent with how other services like email work. One of the reasons we updated our terms was to make this more clear.
In reality, we wouldn't share your information in a way you wouldn't want. The trust you place in us as a safe place to share information is the most important part of what makes Facebook work. Our goal is to build great products and to communicate clearly to help people share more information in this trusted environment.
We still have work to do to communicate more clearly about these issues, and our terms are one example of this. Our philosophy that people own their information and control who they share it with has remained constant. A lot of the language in our terms is overly formal and protective of the rights we need to provide this service to you. Over time we will continue to clarify our positions and make the terms simpler.
Still, the interesting thing about this change in our terms is that it highlights the importance of these issues and their complexity. People want full ownership and control of their information so they can turn off access to it at any time. At the same time, people also want to be able to bring the information others have shared with them--like email addresses, phone numbers, photos and so on--to other services and grant those services access to those people's information. These two positions are at odds with each other. There is no system today that enables me to share my email address with you and then simultaneously lets me control who you share it with and also lets you control what services you share it with.
We're at an interesting point in the development of the open online world where these issues are being worked out. It's difficult terrain to navigate and we're going to make some missteps, but as the leading service for sharing information we take these issues and our responsibility to help resolve them very seriously. This is a big focus for us this year, and I'll post some more thoughts on openness and these other issues soon.
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm going to protest Best Buy by going in and buying stuff! That'll show them!
When are people going to learn to 'protest' facebook by not using facebook?
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that people already use Facebook and they are invested in it (they have friends, pictures, etc) and this is a change in TOS that you can't refuse, if you just leave Facebook the TOS says (from what I understand) that they have control over your info... so what use to leave now?
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually it was easy for me... I found all the people I actually cared about on the site. Which happened to be all my friends because I did not add everyone under the sun. Told them how to get in touch with me, then proceeded to delete everything I had uploaded in the first place. Started removing all information about me, which was not much because I was never very fond of putting up all my info on there anyways. Then closed the account. So they can have my schools email and that I play guitar and like anime but that is about it. Sure they may have backups but screw it I'll live. And I don't mind not having facebook anymore either.
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Insightful)
"...Sure they may have backups but screw it I'll live"
More than just backups. When you "delete" something your just setting a Is_Deleted flag on their database. As far as facebook is concerned, your information is just as easily available as if you were an active member.
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Interesting)
Peer pressure and boredom brought be back 3 months later and I remade an account with the same information - to my suprise my ENTIRE account was restored, I mean EVERYTHING. Every picture, every comment, every message, every tagged photo... everything you do on Facebook is stored away for good.
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Interesting)
It's worse if they decide for some reason, which they will never tell you, to ban you. Your account will still be open and active and no amount of arguing with their support staff will convince them otherwise.
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Informative)
Pictures are never deleted off disk. Their storage infrastructure doesnt do it as they use a custom filesystem (There was a talk about it published a while ago).
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Interesting)
More than just backups. When you "delete" something your just setting a Is_Deleted flag on their database. As far as facebook is concerned, your information is just as easily available as if you were an active member.
What if you simply change it, say, to something bogus?
They might have some kind of version control system, but a version control system is really a kind of backup with a particular purpose.
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Insightful)
Boycotts aren't supposed to be easy. Neither is any other passive protest. Ghandi didn't go "oh well shit, this is hard, you win".
If you really want Facebook to pay attention, start letter writing campaigns to their advertisers. Start boycotting their advertisers
Parent
Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Informative)
Boycotts aren't supposed to be easy. Neither is any other passive protest. Ghandi didn't go "oh well shit, this is hard, you win".
If you really want Facebook to pay attention, start letter writing campaigns to their advertisers. Start boycotting their advertisers
Better solution: Also harass them, using the phone lines. Jam down their lines.
Facebook, Inc.
156 University Ave or 471 Emerson Street
Palo Alto, CA 94301
Phone: 650-543-4800
Fax: 650-543-4801
Press: 650-543-4811
Unknown: 650-853-1300âZ
http://www.facebook.com/ [facebook.com]
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Insightful)
The best way to hit them is NOT TO USE THE DAMN SITE! How simple can it be?
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Re:The biggest problem == no exit strategy (Score:5, Informative)
I think Gmail is the same; do they provide a way to export your email so that you can upload it to some other provider? Yeah, I didn't think so.
You mean like by using IMAP or POP [google.com]?
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Funny)
I move to create a Boycott Facebook group on facebook.
I'd go start one up right now, but I don't have a facebook account, seeing as I'm boycotting it.
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Insightful)
This sums up all that's wrong about facebook 'protest' groups and 'causes'. You join a cause, then get a warm and fuzzy feeling that you've actually done something. YOU HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING APART FROM CLICKING THE MOUSE! It's even more useless than email petitions. Want to make a difference? Write a letter to your politician, go to a protest, start a boycott, strike, blockade, start a campaign group, talk to people in the street, stand on a soapbox, fuck some shit up. But it's gonna take a hell of a lot more effort than joining a facebook group.
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Funny)
Reuters reports that Facebook executives were seen at a press conference pinky swearing, and gave the additional statement of "No takesie-backsies."
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Re:Oh, that's all right then (Score:5, Insightful)
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Serves you right (Score:5, Insightful)
Its enormously popular, and (to some) provides a lot of value... and its free. What did you THINK they were going to do with the info you have up there ? It's a massive social engineering/data mining study, and you're taking part in it.
Good thing I'm safe (Score:5, Funny)
I only use myspace, gmail + other google services, LinkedIn, and twitter. They certainly don't fit your description, so I'm good.
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Re:Serves you right (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. Someone went to a lot of effort, and spends a huge stack of cash every month to keep FB operating and providing those free services. Very little in life is truly free... and this is no different.
They provide us with an entertaining and occasionally useful service without any cash changing hands, but that doesn't mean there isn't a cost involved.
Don't like that they can re-use your "private" data? Don't post it. Want to post it? Regardless of whether your talking about Facebook, some other social site, or even just old-fashioned web pages, as soon as you post it... it's publicly available and there is nothing you can really do to prevent it.
My advice to FB users (that includes me) is to use the same common sense you should be using everywhere: don't post something your mother couldn't read. It's corny, but that perspective could keep a lot of people out of trouble.
If you really want something private, don't use a public social site to post it. There are plenty of web hosting companies to choose from, and for just a few dollars every month you can have space for a web page and stored files. Just find a secured template... and remember that nothing is ever - EVER - truly secure if it is publicly accessible.
Cheers, and happy Facebooking!
Jim
Parent
And begat the Fed Trade Commission complaint... (Score:5, Informative)
Facebook Privacy Change Sparks Federal Complaint [yahoo.com]
For those who don't like long reads: Promises aren't enough. EPIC wants it reversed, and is filling a Federal Trade Commission complaint.
Re:And begat the Fed Trade Commission complaint... (Score:5, Funny)
Here's hoping for an EPIC win.
Parent
Re:And begat the Fed Trade Commission complaint... (Score:5, Insightful)
What most people don't seem to realize is that their original TOS wasn't too hot to begin with as it were. It's not so much that the conditions under their TOS are unusual, but more that it offers no consideration for the kind of data that the TOS covers.
If Youtube claims an automatic all-use license for content uploaded onto their servers, it's not that big a deal, as all it has are videos. If Flickr did the same, it's a little worse, but still not that big a deal as all they really have are pictures and some comments.
But Facebook contains a huge amount of personal information--and they are as anal in keeping information as a wiki--some of which may be protected by privacy laws. Even if AOL said they keep all logs of all conversations that go through AIM and can use it for whatever purpose they like, there isn't nearly as much personally identifiable information as there is on Facebook, and that and more was effectively what Facebook's original TOS entailed. Such a TOS on their part is irresponsible at best, and criminal at worst.
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An echo chamber... (Score:5, Insightful)
Dont we have this discussion about once a year?
I remember the exact same thing going down with Flikr, Myspace, Youtube... Of course I dont agree with the wording and implications of the new TOS but can anyone point me to an example where any of these sites have commandeered content and used it nefariously? Microsoft maybe once?
Re:An echo chamber... (Score:5, Interesting)
Suppose you have a long history of posts covering a particular topic with a large following of readers. You decide to compile them into a book and get it published. If it becomes popular (read: profitable) enough, you bet Facebook will pull the ToC out, dust if off, and demand at least a portion of the profits.
The reason you don't see the implications of this very often is there's usually no money in claiming ownership to material posted. But you'd better believe that once there's money in it, Facebook (or whoever else has this kind of ToC) will enforce it with teams of lawyers.
(the book example is just one example of how this could happen... there could be many more)
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This is nothing new (Score:5, Interesting)
This isn't anything new. I used to use facebook somewhat and posted a few things to it until I caught wind of their TOS. They essential claimed at least partial ownership of anything posted to their site at the time and I didn't feel as though it was a fair shake. I essentially stopped using it at that point.
My account is still active and every few months I check it and add anyone that I'd care to have contact information for. Essentially it's a glorified rolodex for me, with the added bonus that other people can find me. Personally, if I wanted to talk with someone I'd rather call them up and have a cup of coffee or a meal instead of sending little messages back and forth. Technology is a fairly big part of my life. I work with it, play with it, and use it for research. I don't really feel it should be a big part of my social life, however.
Maybe I'm just a luddite in that regard, but I prefer face to face meetings over anything else that we've developed over the last hundred years.
People Against the new Terms of Service (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a link to this group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=77069107432 [facebook.com]
Re:People Against the new Terms of Service (Score:4, Insightful)
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I pulled all of my photos off (Score:4, Interesting)
I yanked my photos off and I won't be putting up any more. Facebook is a reasonable place to stay in touch with friends as long as you have your privacy settings locked down, but other than that... forget it. Their backpedaling is just ridiculous. Want to make a statement? Then change the policy. Or give at least an opt-out for "No, I do not wish to grant Facebook any rights to my copyrighted materials". They can say "well, that's not really what we mean" all they want. The policy is pretty clear... post a photo or video on Facebook and they claim they can do whatever they want with it now and forever.
This is a pretty reasonable review of the various policies of social media sites. http://amandafrench.net/2009/02/16/facebook-terms-of-service-compared/ [amandafrench.net]
I'll continue to post my images to flickr (lower resolution of course)... but certainly not to Facebook any longer.
-S
CNN Used My Facebook Info (Score:5, Interesting)
Lawyers with too much power (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm reminded of a comment from a previous story, about how it takes strong leadership to manage company lawyers, who will otherwise go on a paranoid spree about their particular fears.
These companies employ lawyers to produce contracts that excuse them any liability and grant them infinite rights "just in case", and then get very surprised when users actually take them seriously. "But we wouldn't really do that!"
Clue: tell your lawyers what you ACTUALLY need and want, don't just let them fill in the gaps with their imaginations.
Re:Lawyers with too much power (Score:5, Insightful)
IAAL, and I disagree. We don't spend our time making stuff up and convincing our client's it's what they want.
You can rest assured that this is exactly what Facebook was after, and that their instructions to their reflect it. If you tell lawyers to make something as favourable as possible, that's exactly what they'll do.
Parent
So? (Score:5, Informative)
Am I the only one who read the article?
That makes sense to me.
Back to the old ToS? (Score:5, Interesting)
It appears, on the surface, that the old ToS is back in effect; the ToS page is dated September 23, 2008. [facebook.com]
It does bring to mind a new question. If you delete content and thus revoke Facebook's omnipotent rights to your now-deleted content, how does Facebook ensure that the content is no longer used by those sub-licensors? I can appreciate the need to spell out that Facebook is going to make copies of posted content as part of serving up Web pages, spreading server load, backups, etc., but how about not going any farther than that?
Maybe if Facebook drops the terms that they claim the right to use posted content for other commercial purposes (in particular sub-licensing) I may consider giving it another try; but otherwise, forget it. The bright spot in all this is that it has (finally) awakened me to really read the ToS when setting up accounts on websites like this.
Why is it so hard? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is it so hard for these companies like Google and Facebook, to maintain a non-sleezy TOS? It seems like they start out good- user-oriented when they're small, but as they grow they just start to say screw the user, we need to make money.
I like Plaxo.com's terms of service and privacy policy. They don't seem to have trouble outlining a policy for this situation:
"Changes to Your Information are typically executed immediately. For example, if you terminate your Plaxo account, your account immediately becomes inaccessible and all Your Information within your account is completely removed from the Plaxo servers. Please remember that if you have shared Your Information with other Members, they may retain such shared information in their accounts notwithstanding your decision to terminate your Plaxo account."
Re:Facebook has had an evil ToS for awhile (Score:5, Funny)
If you don't believe me, look for groups against duplicate groups.
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Re:pants? (Score:4, Informative)
pants = British for rubbish [urbandictionary.com]
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how have you committed digital seppuku? (Score:5, Informative)
You posted a comment on slashdot, with your homepage set to techiehelplist.com, which a whois shows is registered to a Jamie B*****n with complete address in a state south of Idaho. It took less time to find that out than it took to type this comment. (If it's _not_ you, it's a pretty good start).
I don't know how to commit digital seppuku myself, but I think you're doing it wrong ;-P
(all in fun)
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Re:how have you committed digital seppuku? (Score:5, Interesting)
I did it with this [facebook.com].
What's funny is the delete form now says:
Deleting due to change in Terms of Service
Are you deleting because you are concerned about Facebook's Terms of Service?
This was a mistake that we have now corrected. You own the information you put on Facebook and you control what happens to it. We are sorry for the confusion.
- The Facebook Team
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