Tom's Hardware Linux NVidia Benchmarks 156
diehard writes: "Tom's Hardware has posted a set of benchmarks of NVidia cards running under Xfree86 4. They are pretty impressive - it looks like Linux has finally become truly viable for gaming."
Re:Viable for gaming but not freedom (Score:1)
Do some research. Nvidia clearly said IN ABOUT 20 INTERVIEWS that they'd liek to Open Source their drivers *BUT* they have signed various NDAs on sections of their technology, and they would be in direct violation if they released the source.
I've had lunch with one of the nvidia linux developers, and he laid the whole thing out. Believe all the conspiracies you want, I don't care, but don't go spreading FUD.
Re:The mouse STILL SUCKS (Score:2)
Driver "mouse"
Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2"
Option "Device" "/dev/mouse"
Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
Option "Resolution" "1000"
Option "SampleRate" "85"
I also have "xset m 0 0" on.
I've tried all sorts of variations on these numbers, I've tried booting X with no window manager and a single xterm, etc etc etc.
As I said, my mouse performance in windows is excellent, so hardware shouldn't be the problem.
Re:Gaming will only undermine Linux's reputation (Score:2)
Linux as an operating system can and should handle all of the tasks we're asking of a desktop computer today. The mainstream, easy to use OS will help me play UT (have you heard about the unappreciated art form that is FPS?) Don't count out games as one of the driving (pun intended:) forces behind the growing demand for big iron power in little iron boxes. I see little danger in Linux becoming a "gaming" OS.
I'd hate to see a bunch of punkass newbie kids come in and rune the powerful thinking man's little slice of heaven
Uhm... (Score:2)
closed source.
Has something changed the last 30 days?
Re:Good to know (Score:1)
Re:Gamers hesitate, graphics people rejoice (Score:2)
The reason for the 5 page installation are.. (Score:2)
1. NVidia hasn't created a proper install-script for it (NVidias fault, not an inherit fault of Linux).
2. The drivers are not opensource, so many distributors hesitate in distributing the NVidia driver with Linux, making point 1 obsolete. Again not an inherit fault of Linux. NVidia can remedy this as well.
I'm not trying to be a troll, but it is quite annoying when some people give Linux and XFree86
the blame for something that is in the hands of
the manufacturer (NVidia).
That said, I'll probably buy an ATI radeon, because of the opensource-nature of the drivers.
Why does NVidia has so much to hide, when ATI doesn't?
Re:The mouse STILL SUCKS (Score:1)
Re:Alternatives to NVidia? (Score:1)
No. The Voodoo5 needs to be plugged into a hard disk cable (in the V5 6000, the mains - whoever heard of a video card you had to plug into a wall?) and still gets beaten by the GTS (and even the GeForce DDR) in benchmarks, the Matrox G400 [although nice] is a few generations old (it's TNT2-Ultra generation), and... what's left? S3 makes budget chips, PowerVR's no longer a factor (or has drivers)... nVidia's the best we've got!
If you want something in a lesser class than a nVidia card (and I'm just thankful that there are drivers, whether they're OSS or not) you might like to head towards the Matrox G400, which is a Nice Card. But not a GeForce GTS, which is hopefully going to be my next video unit. Until the NV20 comes along...
Re:Tom must be a real genius. (Score:2)
Re:Whaddya mean, "finally"? (Score:1)
--
Re:What about NT? (Score:1)
Re:Gamers hesitate, graphics people rejoice (Score:2)
SGI going to IA32/IA64 is an obvious choice.
The MIPS is falling behind in mhz.
SGI shops feel comfortable staying with the SGI name but they will leave them if the price/performance ratio drops too much.
I agree that the SGI web servers are a joke... they are manufactured by VA, I believe, so why not buy a VA box?
I also agree with the switch to NT. But I also know that the people I work with that want the SGI NT boxes will not give them up for Octanes.
Obviously you haven't been paying attention to SGI press releases... The Origin line has gone from the 200 to the 2000 to the 3000 series, all in the last year or two. Each of them still being sold and produced. They are expanding the line.
By IA64 compatability in the 3000 line, they are allowing themselves to take advantage of a largely distributed CPU that will continue to be developed and improved.
Also... most programs that run under Linux are also ported for Irix. And... even if the Origins do run Linux on the MIPS, the code still needs to be ported for the chip, so that argument is moot.
Maya is still being developed for the SGI, so people are still developing for it. Maya is a killer app. It is why we have 50+ SGI boxes in house. I know other studios are the same.
As I have said, people buy SGI for the name. The name implies a level of quality and support. Big places spend money for products they trust.
Don't go counting out SGI yet.
Re:Actual cost $0. (Score:1)
Your highschool level knowledge of economics is better than most slashdotters, I'll give you that.
Re:how mnay fps are necessary? (Score:1)
In tv/film you mostly have very similar images following each other, e.g. a person walks across the screen, but the background remains the same. In this kind of a situation, at 25fps your brains 'blurs' the images together and everything appears to be fluid.
In FPS games on the other hand, it is common for 2 consecutive images to be completely different, e.g. when you do a 180 mouse flick to look behind you. In maybe 0.5s the background changes completely. In this kind of situation you brain might actually notice that 25fps, while 60fps would be much more comfortable.
FAQ says it's impossible (Score:1)
Re:What about NT? (Score:1)
Email me nicely using (and damn well use pgp!) at teo@nvnetworking.com and maybe i'll send you a copy.
Re:Nvidia sucks, Try going on irc.openprojects.net (Score:1)
Re:Nvidia sucks, Try going on irc.openprojects.net (Score:1)
Re:What about NT? (Score:2)
Re:We need more than a fast graphics card (Score:1)
Dirk Hohndel (XFree core team member and SuSE CTO) said in his speach at LinuxTag that it has become MUCH better, both because Linux is getting more important and because the gfx card makers get more confidence in the word of the XFree team not to break NDAs etc. He gave the example of Matrox. IIRC, for the first card they didnt give any documentation, for the second some after it had shipped and now (for the G400?) they gave complete documentation before it shipped.
Nvidia sucks (Score:2)
Encourage Tom! (Score:4)
This was my first Linux hardware review and it will certainly not be my last. The first time is always supposed to be the hardest, but the most rewarding as well. Please let me know how I performed here. Was I babbling too much about Linux? Weren't there enough facts in the review? Don't you care about 3D stuff in your Linux-box? Please give me feed back under tomslinux@tomshardware.com [mailto]. I will try to live up to the expectations of the Linux community, but first I need to know what they are.
We need to encourage him! Tell him some of the things we would like reviewed with linux benchmarks. Thank him for taking a big step in dedicating a whole review to linux. Only good things can come of this!
Re:The mouse STILL SUCKS (Score:1)
Re:The mouse STILL SUCKS (Score:1)
Lower benchmark scores (Score:1)
I would go for Linux as my primary gaming platform if they were more games (like Deus Ex, The Sims, etc.) and more support for games. As it stands, Win2000 is my primary gaming platform, with Linux as my programming platform.
Tom must be a real genius. (Score:1)
Now, maybe I'm an idiot, but I could have sworn that runlevel 5 is generally the one that runs XDM/GDM/etc by default. When I 'init 2' I get a system with no NFS, and no eth0!
Just a thought.
Xfree 4.x is still fairly new (Score:2)
Re:Nvidia sucks (Score:3)
There are some pretty bad bugs in the current drivers which were fixed previously but crept back in somehow.
-- iCEBaLM
Re:The mouse STILL SUCKS (Score:1)
Re:linux 3d is weak (Score:1)
Actually, everything you should need is really on these two pages:
http://dri.sourceforge.net/DRIcompile.html
and
http://dri.sourceforge.net/DRIuserguide.html
Ranessin
Good to see (Score:2)
As for those 'l33t users' who say that games will somehow damage your precious OS, this is nonsense. Thats the wonderful thing about Linux, because its Open Source, and there are many distros, you can tune it to do exactly what you want (unlike with other OSs); you want a console-only network station for a l33t user, get Slackware or Debian, or grow your own distro. You want games, get SuSe, or Redhat or something and install high powered drivers, and games and stuff; ITS YOUR CHOICE; YOUR POWER! USE IT!
Re:The mouse STILL SUCKS (Score:1)
Okay.
I have an unpowered KVM switchbox. With some of my systems it worked. Other systems would lock solid or just lose keyboard or mouse support until rebooted. I've since purchased a decent, inexpensive powered KVM, and the problems have gone away.
Re:Gaming will only undermine Linux's reputation (Score:1)
I too wouldn't want to see Linux become
what Win98 is today, more of the main
platform for games than for productivity.
It irks me that some people try to get into
Linux not because of the advantages of using
the OS but because it's 'cool' and its all
hype these days. I had a relative that tried
to mimic me and set up a linux server,
which I'm happy to say that he failed
miserably.
Why did he fail? It wasn't because he
didn't have the resources available to him
that I did? no. It wasn't because he had
inferior hardware to me? quite the contrary.
He failed because he didn't take it seriously.
All he was concerned about was feeding his
ego. And in that respect, I agree with your
statement. If you're not going to bother
to get serious with Linux, then stay away.
Because the last thing anyone wants is for
disgruntled users who've tried and failed to
use linux trash it to everyone else.
IMHO,
Re:We need more than a fast graphics card (Score:1)
Even if you have an API like DirectX which tells you the capabilities of the hardware, to do it right you have to ignore this and just time a frame with bump mapping and then decide whether to use it. For example bump mapping might only run in hardware, if you have less than 3 lights. How do you want to describe this with capability bits (flags). Also, even if it runs in hardware, but is much slower than an alternative (say, using many polys) that looks as good, then you would use the alternative. As a gfx developer you are not interested in what runs in hardware, but in how fast it is. Also, like the other person wrote you can leave these decisions to the user, since its also a matter of taste.
Open standard? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Gaming will only undermine Linux's reputation (Score:1)
I mean, it's not like we're tapping into your cpu cycles or anything.. Why are you so scared by drivers that might come with a standard distribution that happen to cover the leading 2D/3D graphics board in consumer pc's, and that users can choose not to use. I'm sorry but this doesn't make any sense. Keeping windows alongside should in the end not be a necessity, but you make it sound like it should be.
Ohyeah, FYI (probably not), only Quake I and Unreal run acceptably on my PPro 180 Banshee (that's right, I don't even *have* an nVidia card) System. Gnome, KDE & Enlightment however are a totally different set of tears, and that's just static bitmaps!
Over to you, Frank.
Re:Page flipping should not be supported. (Score:1)
We need more than a fast graphics card (Score:3)
And how about a 3D API that allow you to optimise speed for the capabilities of the graphics card. Or some low level support for 3D cards in the frame buffer device (which could solve both these problems quite easily)
I think I'm the only one who prefered the old days when the OS was considered irrelevent for games, except for as a program launcher, and something that should be disposed of as soon as possible. How many people want to multitask their web server with quake anyway?
Maybe he wasn't being sarcastic. (Score:1)
Gamers hesitate, graphics people rejoice (Score:2)
I come from the other end of the spectrum. I am anxiously awaiting these near similar benchmarks. Linux graphics machines are going to be a reality soon. The A|W port of Maya is going to be ready next year, the SGI Linux boxes exist, and now, the drivers seem like they will be ready for the release.
This is great news. All SGI shops now have an alternative to NT. I know that many are evaluating the choice of SGI vs. NT with the increased NT performance and the lower prices. With Linux in the mix, good things can happen.
If you look at what SGI has been doing in the last couple of months, they have been setting themselves up for this switch.
1) SGI has ported Linux to work on the Origin series of machines.
2) SGI has designed the next series of Origins to run on either IA64 or mips (with Linux support)
3) SGI has produced Linux graphics workstations with more standard hardware than the NT only boxes of a few years ago.
4) SGI has worked closely with NVidia for graphics hardware solutions
5) SGI has signed a deal with Intergraph (one of the leaders in NT graphics boxes) to sell Intergraph boxes
The first four point to Linux in the graphics world. The last one seems to either be a failsafe or.. as I see it, a chance to sell more boxes that could be dual boot graphics stations with some research.
The next year will be interesting for all places that are SGI shops.
Re:Good to know (Score:2)
I used ssystem as a screensaver on my Voodoo back in the days and liked it a lot, so I was interested to find the recent OpenUniverse review in C'T magazine. And I have to say I'm very impressed with this program on my TNT2. Visually stunning as well as educational I've spent quite some hours zooming around the solar system already.
Thanks,
Flo
Actual cost $0. (Score:1)
Fortunately, though, Debian (which is the only true Linux out there) still costs $0 to install/use from the 'net. And the CDs, from www.cheapbytes.com [cheapbytes.com] for instance, are little more than what blanks would cost ($7 US for two CDs).
Since Debian has its roots in the GNU project, and is the only GNU distribution of Linux (and therefore entirely open-source/free), it would lead me to consider it the best choice out of all the Linux distros.
Sarge
Re:We need more than a fast graphics card (Score:1)
And stuff like memory management ? file I/O ?
you also want to get back to the good old days of having raw file i/o for your programs, or is this all supposed to be standardized in hardware ?
Re:Really? (Score:1)
i think the distro's should come with the drivers, and on installation should setup the proper drivers for playing games for you video card. and should also provide a way to keep it current. a couple of rpms, mandrake update, or apt-get, or somthing of the sort.
not only would this be great, and make gaming under linux, actually, just gaming. but it would attract new people to check it out under linux, and buy linux games, which would result in more ports. and lastly, this would be even better than the system windows currently uses ;) so it would not just be matching windows in some respect, but beating it to somthing :)
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Re:Gaming will only undermine Linux's reputation (Score:1)
I think basicly any linux app still has a long way to go before they become usable on the desktop. And while applications are what make OS'es work or not, Games considerably help push the numbers up in a steady pace, both in hardware and software.
What harm will it do to finally have some drivers you can choose to install ? If there is a (large) demand for such things, and the people even get what they want, for free, then why does the much celebrated linux diehard guru has to have a problem with gaming all of a suddden?
Man, I don't mean to be rude, but Linux is slowly changing shape if you hadn't noticed. Linux strives to compare with (and surpass) windows. Well, it better cover every inch of the playing field (read: market), not just that of the skilled & savvy power users, or someone is going to pull the plugg on his development cycle. Does this mean my aunty has to able to run linux ? maybe.. does that mean power users will have to button-click ? I hope not.. should we all be free to do as we like ?
Re:Actual cost $0. (Score:1)
So, until you give me a free ADSL or something or other, don't claim that downloading stuff is free.
And even the "free ISPs" require you to spend some money, in the form of hardware or other
Math question: How many cds can you order from cheapbytes before it makes sense to buy the modem ?
Re:It's not open source (Score:1)
So adovocating for open source (as a general pricipal or for this driver in particular) would put you in violation of the agreement ... and nvdia's lawyers will come and take your 1st born child (of graphics card whichever is more precious to you :-)
Re:We need more than a fast graphics card (Score:2)
Resolution switching is already there, color depth is a problem, I agree.
And how about a 3D API that allow you to optimise speed for the capabilities of the graphics card.
Like, for instance, OpenGL/GLX?
Or some low level support for 3D cards in the frame buffer device (which could solve both these problems quite easily)
Which wouldn't be dissimilar to DRI's DRM?
The architecture exists already, everything that is needed for great 3D in Linux is already there, it just needs to be USED and IMPLIMENTED. The big problem is getting graphics chip specs from graphics chip makers.
-- iCEBaLM
Re:You can't be serious (Score:2)
The whole OS doesn't run in user-mode, just services that don't need Ring0. And a lot of services don't. For example, if you're drawing a line, you don't need to go into ring 0 to do it. Or if you're asking for information about a font. Remember, Windows is essentially, Linux +X+GNOME+Mozilla. In Linux, X,GNOME and Mozilla run in user-space anyway.
Re:What about NT? (Score:2)
Re:Alternatives to NVidia? (Score:2)
Re:A few questions... (Score:2)
B) Memory bandwidth is a much bigger problem than the amount. However, this one will soon be solved as well. The PSX2 is already using embeeded video memory, and the GCube, (with 32MB or embedded memory) is what PC graphics cards will look like in a few years. It would not be hard to imagine a card with a large bank of main memory, a large texture cache, and compression features to move compressed texture over the memory bus into the texture cache. Or, they might just use freakishly fast RAM like Hercules is doing on their cards. Or go the Matrox route and use very wide busses. There are many solutions to the problem.
Re:What about NT? (Score:1)
Re:linux 3d is weak (Score:1)
I have a P2/400 and a Creative 3d blaster annhiliator 2 (forget the exact name.. its the caard with the Geforce2 GTS) and can play q3 at 1600x1200 with everything set up to the max. Runs very smooth. No mouse problems either.
And that was with the standard 0.9-4 drivers from nvidia's website. I went to irc.openprojects.net and talked to the guys in #nvidia and got drivers optimized for the PPro (or better) and got a 5-10% bump in 3d performance. (Using the mesa "gears" demo to measure)
siri
Re:Alternatives to NVidia? (Score:1)
The Linux driver API is never going to be stable. Linus has said this. Even when the external API remains stable, the internal kernel structures may change. A module that compiles on both 2.2.12 and 2.2.16 may not work if I try to install one compiled under 2.2.12 on a 2.2.16 system. At the end of the day, the Linux kernel is open source. Anything that interfaces with the kernel and is not open source is going to increase the difficulty for users and is significantly more likely to cause problems.
Re:What about NT? (Score:1)
Oh? On my machine software-rendered Quake was doing 50% of performance on NT compared to 98. So...
Gamelinux distribution (Score:1)
For some time I've been thinking of preparing a 'sub-distribution' (i.e., take an existing distribution, reconfigure and repackage) targeted at the 'Gametop' (gameheads whose main purpose for using a computer is to play games). It would look something like:
GAMELINUX
The conquest of the Gametop is a necessary step in the quest for world domination. The ingredients are available, we just need to put them together.
Various Legal notices:
Enjoy,
Eusebio (@corelcity.com)
Re:The mouse STILL SUCKS (Score:1)
Re:What about NT? (Score:2)
Re:linux 3d is weak (Score:3)
dload xfree86.org linux binaries of 4.01
run xinstall.sh
run XFree86 -configure
edit your new XF86Config till it works properly (hint - do a xf86config & copy details from that to your "-configure" generated one - you need to select "generic vga" as your card though)
get: tdfx_drm-1.0-2.src.rpm & Glide_V3-DRI-3.10-6.i386.rpm from: here [3dfx.com] & follow the instructions on the page to install them
do a "modprobe tdfx" to load the module (before you "startx")
Quake III should now work, including DGA mouse (YMMV)(hint - create an .xinitrc in ~/ with "exec quake3" as the only command - if you change res ingame it tends to fsck your dektop on exit)
I agree that the documentation is sparse (nvidia does it much better), but it's early days for these drivers, & they are being actively developed.
--
Re:Another Benchmark needed (Score:2)
Re:Tom must be a real genius. (Score:2)
Re:What about NT? (Score:2)
PGP is Pretty Good Privacy. Encryption, digital signatures... good stuff. Check out www.pgp.com or http://www.pgpI.org/ if you are outside of the USA.
--
Page flipping should not be supported. (Score:5)
Points:
The benefit of page flipping is decreasing as more and more computation is done per pixel to the back buffer.
In the old days of 2D scrollers, you might barely cover the screen with one pass of writes, so page flipping could double your speed over blitting.
On a typical modern 3D game that becomes fill limited, under 25% of the performance is in the blit, and often under 10% in scenes with significant overdraw.
In upcoming games that composite 20+ layers of textures, the cost of a blit is down in the noise.
Blits add flexibility. Anti-aliasing is better done through a blit operation than with a deep front buffer. Other operations, like converting from a 64 bit work pixel to a 32 bit display pixel, or performing convolutions, are also better done with blits.
Back buffers are more optimally arranged in tiled patterns, while front buffers prefer linear scans.
Basically, our back buffers are starting to look less like raster
Page flipping doesn't apply to windowed rendering unless you butcher the X server to render all 2D to multiple buffers and clip all 3D operations. I consider that a bad thing. Making the full screen rendering more distant from windowed rendering is also a bad thing.
Every implementation of page flipping brings in a class of bugs, and obfuscates several code paths. It's not worth it.
John Carmack
Whaddya mean, "finally"? (Score:4)
I beg your pardon... Nethack has looked great on Linux for years!
MODERATORS - This post is not a troll! (Score:2)
The post I have replied to is NOT a troll, despite having been moderated as such. The poster has presented an entirely on-topic opinion (that, as an aside, I tend to agree with)
You, as a moderator, may or may not agree with the post, but not sharing the same viewpoint does not entitle you to slap him with "Troll" - especially when there are so many other REAL trolls to slap down.
I'll be looking for this one in meta-mod....
Good post Mr. AC.
You've TOTALLY missed the point (Score:2)
The problem is not some metaphysical "corruption" of a "pure and free" Linux system, it's a much more practical issue.
The Linux kernel is under constant revision and continual development. Sometimes, the driver API changes - typically for a very good reason - and then any binary-only driver will break.
This means that in order for your binary-only driver to continue to function as the kernel is revised, the provider of that binary-only driver must keep pace with the mainstream kernel development.
Furthermore, in the case of stable-API but unstable behaviour, it is very difficult to get an almost-functioning binary-only driver fixed in any sort of reasonable timeframe, nor is it easy to debug instabilities that may arise through driver/kernel interaction.
The only real solution to these technical problems is to release source.
Let me put it this way - any company that releases binary-only drivers must needs become a slave to maintaining these drivers. If they aren't up to the task, then the result is poor or no support as the kernel mutates through successive versions.
Binary-only drivers SUCK from a purly technical perspective. That's not FUD, it's truth.
Re:Another Benchmark needed (Score:2)
He who knows not, and knows he knows not is a wise man
What about NT? (Score:5)
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Good to know (Score:3)
However, i have to tell you this a rather old program and maybe not the most suitable for benchmarking a new generation 3D cards (like the GeForce).
...but the Radeon driver will be! (Score:4)
Check out the adjacent article on Tom's, about the Radeon. It performs slightly slower than the GeForce in 16-bit mode, and at lower resolutions, but at high-res 32-bit modes the Radeon edges out the GeForce.
The GeForce numbers may be impressive, but me, I'm going to wait until the Radeon driver is ready. And then I'm going to show ATI just how much I appreciate an open solution.
Surely (Score:3)
Linux has a long way to go to being truly viable as a gaming platform. Just becasue one (or a few) video cards have good bench marks, doesn't mean that it is viable, to be viable there needs to be GOOD support from all vendors, who specifically target Linux as a gaming platform like they do to windows, not just one or two companies.
> Most gamers don't have the latest hardware or the fastest as it is normally very expensive.We need excellent support from all hardware manufacturers that have produced video cards over the last year or two. So that all linux users can enjoy a great gaming experience.
This is just the tip of the iceburg, we also need better support for mice, sound cards etc, I mean there is support for these, but not to the extent that they are great for gaming
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(Insightful??) Re:What about NT? (Score:2)
Re:We need more than a fast graphics card (Score:2)
Let the user decide what he wants enabled and/or disabled, don't dictate. As for capabilities about the card, GL Extensions could be used for this, and would work if card makers created their own GL implimentation, but that rarely happens in the Linux world, It does with with nvidia cards, but for things that need mesa I'm not too sure, anything not hardware accellerated it may do in software.
Don't know a lot about DRI. Does it still require X?
It shouldn't require X, the DRM is a kernel interface which anything can use, the dri modules are in the XF86 tree and open, it is theoretically possible that you could write a non-X app to use DRI, but it would be a lot of work I think.
Strange that the chip makers don't give specs. The whole of the Amiga's custom hardware was public, and there was never a clone of that.
They're all paranoid, they don't want to lose their cash cow. If another company really wanted to clone your hardware they'd reverse engineer it, register level specs is an insignificant help in that regard.
-- iCEBaLM
Re:How to change resolution (Score:3)
Personally, I think that virtual desktop space is evil, too, especially when I have 3 (or more!) perfectly good other desktops to use (and anyway, the machines I use run at 1024 x 768 or higher).
Results speak rather well for GCC, too! (Score:2)
This should not only encourage all those rpm weenies out there to 'use the source, luke, but it also dispells any doubts about the quality of compilation that GCC performs these days.
I find it quite amusing that an immature open source driver for a free OS, compiled with a freeware compiler can get within a twat filament's distance of the performance of products with literally billions of $$ behind them.
THAT is a hoot!
Let's not forget also that GCC is the lingua franca of portable computing. GNU tools are probably the *first* add-ons any sun, hp or aix system receives after setup, so they can actually be *used*.
Re:It's not open source (Score:2)
2.1.2 Limitations.
No Reverse Engineering. Customer may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE, nor attempt in any other manner to obtain the source code.
Now correct me if I'm wrong (IANAL), but aren't there places in which you CAN'T forbid people from reverse engineering and therefore such license terms are void?
Now what happens if someone (in a perfectly legal fashion) decides to reverse-engineer this driver in one of these countries (in a clean room set-up of course) and publish the source? Will people from non-free countries (USA for instance*) be in legal trouble if they download/use/distribute such new, Free driver?
* I'll categorize the USA as such until the Supreme Court strikes down the DMCA. If you don't like it... tough. You don't have to read what I write.
Re: (Score:2)
Another Benchmark needed (Score:3)
I hate it when I can't surf slashdot because my X is broken!
But it's worth it for the little quake icon on my gnome launcher.
Re:Cost? (Score:2)
Win98 retail is around $189
Re:How to change resolution (Score:2)
What you mention (oh, and it's ctrl alt + / ctrl alt - NOT just alt + / alt -) does not change the resolution. The virtual desktop is still stuck at whatever your highest resolution setting in XF86Config is. Well, I guess technically you are right -- the screen resolution does change, but that it not nearly good enough. Even in XFree 4.0 there is NO way to change the resolution AND the virtual desktop size at the same time. There is NO way to change the color depth on the fly either.
___
Re:DO NOT BUY THE 3dFx CARDZ!!!! (Score:2)
Flamebait? WTF. Overrated I can see, but whoever moderated this as flamebait needs to get a clue.
Re:Gaming will only undermine Linux's reputation (Score:2)
What exactly do you think the script kiddies are??
How to change resolution (Score:3)
Maybe you were not aware. But I find X to have the simplest and lest obstrusive ways of changing desktop resoultion. If you configured your X correctly have have a number of set resoultions defined as usable on your videocard/monitor combo, then you should be able to change resoltion by just pressting the keys ALT -/+ . Plus to increase, minus to decrease.
Enjoy
--
linux 3d is weak (Score:5)
but, he is honest and doesn't hold back. that makes up for it.
Linux 3d is being handled very poorly. Several years ago, when Linux was struggling through issues with 2D, a lot of people wrote HOWTO's and webpages explaining how to cobble things together. XFree was honest about what did (and did not) work.
But now, anyone who visits the 3dfx newsgroups or the XFree site, then attempts to get their card working in 3d mode, will notice two things:
1) There are no HOWTO's or webpages dedicated to your card. When you ask a simple question, you will immediately be bombarded by three morons who say "why didn't you read through the last 712 messages! everything you need is there!"
2) XFree 4.0.1 documentation claims all sorts of miracles. But the truth is, the product does very little that is new unless you are willing to read the the 712 aforementioned messages and figure out how to disregard the 213 of then that are now outdated or innaccurate.
Many cards require a CVS download and rebuild of everything, plus a 2.3 series kernel, and many files from other sites. After you build everything and and apply all the hacks, don't be suprised if the your system locks after 20 seconds or so, like mine did.
Hate to say it, but XFree is really going out on a limb by calling this beast a "3D enabled release". It's a immature, undocumented 3D release being supported by a bunch of monkeys who refuse to properly document the 3D workarounds. The later 3.X releases were better documented, both by XFree and the card vendors, and more reliable in 3D mode.
The 2D side of 4.0.1 is stable, and the new server configuration stuff is wonderful. But this is not a quality 3D release by any means.
Re:Gaming will only undermine Linux's reputation (Score:5)
DRI (Score:3)
The mouse STILL SUCKS (Score:4)
In short, NOTHING WORKS. the response in Q3A is slow and jerky, unless you are standing stock still. If you turn m_filter off in windows, the mouse is still smooth because the ps/2 rate acn be cranked so high. In linux with m_filter off, it is sucky sucky sucky.
Somebody has to get Loki and XFree in a room together and FIX THIS. Check the newsgroups. check slashdot. _everyone_ complains about this, but nothing gets done. I'm tired loki saying "oh, we support DGA, it should work," and XFree saying, "we fixed it in 4.0.1." Can somebody _please_ address this problem, once and for all?
</rant> sorry.
Comment removed (Score:4)
Re:Another Benchmark needed (Score:2)
When you do get support tho; well, lets just say that it took me about 10 minutes to install a Voodoo 3 PCI card under linux (plug in, boot, autodetect), and three _days_ to get the same card working under Windows '98 (some bug, driver problem, downloads, OS reinstalls, conflicts with old mobo-mounted gfx chipset and drivers). It still locks up with a black screen and goes temporarily unpingable for two minutes every time I boot windows.
YMMV, of course, but in my experience if you check that you arent buying unsupported hardware it's usually easier these days to get it running under linux than it is under windows ('course, sometimes Windows 'Just Does What I Tell It To' too).
Re:Alternatives to NVidia? (Score:3)
Re:(Insightful??) Re:What about NT? (Score:2)
Re:A bit slower or a lot slower? (Score:2)
Re:Results speak rather well for GCC, too! (Score:2)
That is only half-true (Score:3)
is that we're talking average here.
With 30fps the minimum could end up being
18 fps (which is noticable), while with
60 fps the minimum might be around 40 fps.
If you had a game which held 30fps AT ALL TIMES,
it would be just as good as 60fps ALL THE TIME.
NVIDIA Linux driver faster than it looks. (Score:3)
That brings me to a question. Why doesn't the NVIDIA Linux driver implement page flipping. Page-flipping is a basic necessity (nay, a innate right!) for game developers. I seriously doubt X doesn't allow access to page flipping in full screen mode... does it? Also, I just thought of something. Does X allow access to page-flipped overlays. That might allow Quake to use page-flipping in window'ed modes. (Which would be pretty cool.)
Re:What about NT? (Score:5)
NT actually performs better in Quake than Win98 does.
Windows2000 solves the whole "big OS/gaming" problem quite nicely. You see, the OS needs of games are quite limited. Thus, in effect, DirectX is really as much of an OS as most games need. Since you are rarely being productive when you're gaming, some modes of DirectX allows a program to hog the system at the expense of other applications. However, since you're not using other applications while you're gaming, this isn't a problem. Quite an elegant solution really. Although, I'm against heavy OSs in general, but within the context of the problem, Win2K's solution is a pretty good one. (Though don't get me started on the code bloat. What I want is NT4 with full DirectX. Is that too much to ask?)
Bzzt! Wrong. (Score:4)
Why, oh why, do people always think that open-source or software liber implies that nobody can make money off of it? Contrary to many peoples' opinions, RMS does not mind if you make money. Why is it bad that RedHat went IPO? What can they possibly do to the community? The very nature of the GPL is that no one person can run off with the code. There is no chance that they would make the kernel non-free or anything like that, like many people were claiming would happen. Instead, what has happened to the free software community as a result of the IPO?
They've hired programmers to work on the kernel
They've hired programmers to work on GNOME
They've helped bring the ideas of the open-source community to the masses.
The last is the most important of all. Hiring programmers has been a great help to ensuring the success of critical parts of the GNU/Linux system, but that by itself would have meant very little without their support of the free software community. Without freedom, it would have just been another software project. Instead, their help of the GNOME project as well as the kernel has helped prepare the platform for their most important aid to our community. That aid was in spreading our ideas to the world. Yes, they are taking more of an open-source pragmatist approach as opposed to the free software idealistic approach. But even exposure to the former will help, and eventually some of the users will open their minds towards the ethics of free software, not just the business of open-source.
Sorry if this turned out to be a rant.
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