Ask About Open Source Online Info Resources 69
This is a "double header" interview. Our guests are Jimmy Wales of the recently-started Nupedia open content encyclopedia project and Michael S. Hart of Project Gutenberg, which Hart started in 1971. The two projects are very different -- Nupedia is creating an encyclopedia, while PG is creating an open-ended database of public domain and out-of-copyright texts -- but they are similar in that both projects' primary goal is free (beer and speech) access to information. Post questions (one per post, please) below for Wales and/or Hart about their creations (or any related topic). We'll send 10 of the highest-moderated questions to them tomorrow, and will publish their answers as soon as they get them back to us.
Encyclopaedias are obsolete (Score:2)
What matters now is not where your data are hosted, but how others can access them. That's why it's far more important to get government-subsidized network access for our schools than it is to give them physical access to dead-tree books. Textbooks are just an excuse to milk readers out of $100 and rising, and I won't be sad to see them go.
Opposition from the 'For Pay' industry? (Score:5)
That's a lot of dough. (Score:3)
Project Gutenberg began in 1971 when Michael Hart was given an operator's account with $100,000,000 of computer time in it by the operators of the Xerox Sigma V mainframe at the Materials Research Lab at the University of Illinois.
Anyone know how much computer time that is, or how it was computed? Unfortunately I wasn't alive at the time, and it seems like a weird way to measure time. But if time is money, how much time is 100 million dollars?
How long should copyrighted work remain copyright? (Score:5)
Anyway, here's some discussion (not part of the question and doesn't need to be forwarded):
Ok. I look at this situation and I'm torn. On one side is the fact that without copyright and trademark law, there is little or no incentive to create new works of art. On the other side, with trademarks and copyrights, we're living in an anti-capitalistic world meaning resources are being wasted.
So, we come to a middle ground.
The real problem, as I see it, is not that there are currently songs which are copyrighted and cannot be copied and sold. This is only fair and I, along with most other producers of content would be annoyed if, say, I wrote a book and tried to publish it only to find the next day that another company was giving a reprinted copy of my book away for free as a grab bag prize. Suddenly I cannot make a living (there are no performances for authors). So I do need copyright.
On the other hand, the blocking of others from selling something that they can produce and distribute more cheaply than I can is a shame, and there is no reason that after I'v been allowed to make my money from a product someone else can try to do a better job selling.
What we really have is a problem of time. For some reason it seems that copyright, unlike how it was originally intended, no longer expires. Patents on medines run out after 7 or so years to allow generic copies to be made, why can't the same hold true for content?
So, after 10 or so years, all content enters the public domain and can be reprinted or resold by anyone who wants. Anybody today could print up and sell Beatles albums at whatever cost they decided to charge. Suddenly there would be a true free market for Beatles recordings and the market would decide the price, instead of one company in an artificially controlled pricing system.
That's just my idea, but I truly believe it should be applied to all content: movies, music, books... everything. Give the authors ten years to make thier riches, then give them to the masses to use and reuse as they see fit. The public domain would once again be bountiful.
Technical overview? (Score:4)
I wrote some optical storage/doc scanning code in a previous life...would you be willing to share some experiences and insight into the mechanical/database/indexing side of things, past present and future?
problems? (Score:5)
How do you handle "Free" information? (Score:2)
___________
I don't care what it looks like, it WORKS doesn't it!?!
Re:How do you handle "Free" information? (Score:2)
Intergration of the two projects? (Score:5)
To Michael Hart: I'm well aware of your desire to keep PG e-texts as clean ASCII with nothing linking to other projects and the like, but would you link from the PG website (not the text themselves) to the Nupedia project? As in the previous example, while brosing the various Shakespere works, will I see a link to his biography on Nupedia?
Personally, I think that this kind of intergration is what will really add to Nupedia, as well as giving PG more value in that you can easily find out more about an author. I had been thinking about doing something like this, but just haven't had the time to do it right or the self-confidence to release what crap I did have to the outside world. Without biasing you answers, I really think that this kind of intergration would really be a boon to both projects, and show the benefits of open projects working together to create something greater than the sum of their parts.
-sk
Top-10 Copyrighted works you want if you could. (Score:5)
If you could pick any 10 currently copyrighted works, and have them placed in the public domain (specifically for inclusion in Project Gutenburg) what would they be?
DG
using text in other works (Score:5)
In short, I would like to know how you two believe this concept carries over into the content world. Is their an analogous effect, and is this type of work better or worse off than software in overcoming this effect?
More specifically, I see that the works in Project Gutenberg are primarily (all?) public domain, so they may be referenced, altered, and distributed in quite a few ways with few problems. The content in Nupedia, however, is held under a licence more like the GPL. Do you feel that this restriction will cause that content to be used less by people since it would place restrictions on the way in which they could release and distribute derivitave works? As the amount of content released under the Gnu Free Documentation Licence increases, do you think that it will have as easy of a time becoming accepted and used as software released under the GPL, or do you think that the restrictive nature of the license will have a more deleterious effect on the works released under it?
continue (Score:4)
Do you think your project would thrive and survive if you were hit by a train, or is the project still very much depending on you for expansion and future direction?
Johan.
How do you answer, "Who needs this?" (Score:1)
How are you different?
---
PG encoding methods (Score:1)
Why is project gutenberg using only
"Titanic was 3hr and 17min long. They could have lost 3hr and 17min from that."
Re:How do you handle "Free" information? (Score:1)
___________
I don't care what it looks like, it WORKS doesn't it!?!
Commercial offshoots (Score:5)
PS: note that I consider profit a good thing in general, and this is not a troll or trick question. I would like to see profitable businesses built on the free exchange of knowledge.
rr
Re:Encyclopaedias are obsolete (Score:5)
What do you think of the idea of Open Textbooks? For example, books on World History, Biology, Math, Physics etc. that can be used in high schools and for which no copy restrictions are in place? Schools and/or parents and/or students would be able to print the book themselves at a fraction of the cost. Maybe the result wouldn't be so nice-looking, but it would be effective.
Think schools in poor neighborhoods, or in the Third World. Think cheap, fast inkjet printers. Think a central repository (or a number thereof) whose contents is certified as "Good For Schools" by some reputable academic body, govt-ran or not.
Project Gutenberg acceptance in schools (Score:5)
It seems that free texts such as this would be the perfect thing to use in history courses, where students often buy a book, read it once, and never use it again. School systems could save the students a _lot_ of money this way, and with very little effort on the part of the teacher. Many copy places (such as Kinko's) even will handle distribution and sale of such copies to students, with no effort on the part of the teacher, and a lot more cheaply than buying a book for one use.
Do you have any idea how to convince school systems of the value of this approach? Given the large number of historical texts available, it seems that it would open the doors to teachers use of a lot more original material in classes without much effort or expense.
Appropriate Copyright Length? (Score:5)
Currently, it's up to 95 years (if memory serves).
According to the Constitution, it was supposed to be for "limited times," but 95 years is longer than most people's average lifespan. To me, it seems that the copyright protection is effectively "forever" since odds are an average American would never (legally) get the chance to apply creative talent to make a derivative work from the Star Wars universe, for example.
What do you consider to be an appropriate copyright length, balancing the need to pay content creators, versus the Public Domain and society's claim on it? And, if you think it should be considerably less than it is now, how does the US's Berne Convention agreement effect/influence what can be done?
Re:Encyclopaedias are obsolete (Score:3)
Here's the problem: You are looking for the correct spelling for "partner", and you find a web site claiming it to be "parttner", another "pratner", another saying "partner", so who do you trust? How do you figure out what the correct spelling for partner is? You'll probably turn to authorities from the dead-tree world, so the question is "how do you build that authority on the web?"
It is even more true with bomb recipes sites, they are more likely to earn you a Darwin Award [darwinawards.com] than make you an effective terrorist...
So, there is a lot of room for humans still. To some degree you can rely on author-provided metadata, but only as long as you can take out spammers, first-posters, trolls, etc. And, given that lameness filters take out no more of those than censorware takes out pr0n, it'll always be a place for reviewers.
Now, what the Nupedia folks is trying to do, is to create an environment where review is rigorous, on the web. You won't have to turn to dead-trees authorities to get reliable answers, the reliability lies in the review process of the *pedia, and I say that as more and more information becomes available, third party review will become increasingly important as you really don't know what to trust...
Now, Nupedia may not be an encyclopedia in the classical sense, then, but I say a centralized source is still a Good Thing [tm] for many years to come.
Project Gutenberg file format (Score:5)
We're a long way from 1970 when ASCII was the only viable lingua franca for a network; is there any discussion of updating the file format for the project? Specifically, something *ML-ish which would allow for presentation in multiple output formats. I am thinking of the spread of e-book readers and the like and increasing the potential readership. With a proper infrastructure, project texts could even be rendered to adaptive browsers with VoxML or other technologies.
Secondly, if the project doesn't choose to modify its longstanding ASCII formatting standards, are there efforts afoot to programmatically apply some structured tagging on-the-fly to allow for easy translation by other tools? Is this an itch I'll have scratch for myself?
Re:problems? (Score:1)
Re:PG encoding methods (Score:1)
Perhaps because there is ZIP and UNZIP under most OS. TGZ are unknown to the average Windows User.
CRLF :
Again, most Unix users either have an utility to strip those CR (btw, sed, script perl, dd,... would do the trick) or can anyway read those documents even with the CR present. Windows users can't read those documents well.
That make the whole DB usable by nearly everyone. And it's the whole point of PG : make those text available to as much people as possible, for free.
cross-linking (Score:1)
Re:Encyclopaedias are (Score:1)
In other words, I could put instructions for building a perpetual motion machine on my website. So what if Google links to my page? It still doesn't mean the information will be correct. Hopefully, because of the way Nupedia is setting up experts and peer reviewers, the information in it will be more accurate than information found on general web sites.
What about libraries (Score:1)
Do you think libraries like we know them now are going to eventually replaced by stuff like this?
What about paper books, will everything be digitized?
The Bono Copyright Protection Act (Score:4)
This idiotic piece of legislation retroactively increased length of copyright protection for works written in the 1920s, so that Robert Frost's poetry and many other works will now be kept out of the public domain for another generation.
Is there any possibility this act could be repealed?
Not:Encyclopaedias are obsolete (Score:2)
That said, a good HTTP-based encyclopaedia is an almost perfect application of the technology and directly in keeping with the spirit of the original encyclopaedists: Voltaire, Diderot, et. al. It may be said that the project of the encyclopaedia defined the spirit of the Enlightenment: all human knowledge will at last be encapsulated within the covers of a book; available to ready cross-reference.
Re:How long should copyrighted work remain copyrig (Score:1)
For Mr. Hart (Score:5)
I've also noticed that all texts are available as text-only and I understand your decision behind this.
So, my question has two sides: Are there any plans to build a front-end for PG that is more user-friendly; by this I mean, for instance, profiles of major authors and new acquisitions, featured writings each week, a section for children, personalization features so that the site recommends books for me, and so on. Are there any plans to, while always having text-only versions, also have automatically generated versions in other formats (pdf, postscript, and especially some of the new formats for eBooks or PDAs)??
I think some of these changes, just having a front page that changes everyday with new reading suggestions and lures the visitors to go and read (in the same fashion that makes people go to BN or Amazon to buy books) could make your site much more popular than it already is but how high is this on your list of priorities, if at all?
ps. Kudos on the excellent work you've done through the years!
Mutopia (Score:2)
Mutopia [mutopiaproject.org].
ala CDDB. (Score:1)
Re:Appropriate Copyright Length? (Score:2)
Re:Project Gutenberg file format (Score:1)
Digital Paper (Score:1)
Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act (Score:2)
It appears copyright has been continuously extended on everything produced since 1917 (not sure that's the right year, the copyright office website has it somewhere).
The correct year (in the US at least) is 1923. To me, a copyright date provides only one bit of information: before 1923 or on-or-after 1923. Read my short essay on the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act [8m.com], the root source of DisneyCo's power.
I would gladly donate to an organization doing copyright law reform.
You could start at the Eldred v. Reno page [harvard.edu]. Also consider joining the Electronic Frontier Foundation [eff.org].
Like Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them? [pineight.com]
Re:Top-10 Copyrighted works you want if you could. (Score:1)
Or were you looking for "Windows source!"
25 years tops (Score:2)
I agree that the Bono Act [8m.com] has gone too far. Imagine if patent terms were as long: we wouldn't have generic drugs at all. IMHO, 25 years is more than enough to cover an author's expenses and provide a decent profit. If 17 to 20 years for a patent is enough to keep the drug industry running, why wouldn't a similar time period also work for the copyright industry?
Like Tetris? Like drugs? Ever try combining them? [pineight.com]
Project Gutenberg Question (Score:1)
An organization I've become interested in seems to have an ongoing project to mark Project Gutenberg documents up in XML. There are DTD's available, and you can "check out," mark up and submit a text.
My question is: Are there a large number of organizations doing this, and would it be a good use of time? It seems to be an fine way of getting smart at XML while doing some general good.
Thanks.
Re:Project Gutenberg file format (Score:1)
The submission guidelines for PG are pretty strict. You certainly won't get any swanky formatting out of the deal, but a rudimentary tool (Perl?) to get some tags around the sections, etc; some structure to hang a process on. Is anyone working something like this?
An immoderator has apparently decided I'm a flamer just for asking.
beyond file format issues (Score:2)
There are a lot conceptual and practical issues to be dealt with when designing an information resource that is supposed to have value over an extended period. In this vein, what efforts have been directed towards understanding strategic issues like:
We thieves, we liars, we vandals, and poets. Networked agents of Cthulhu Borealis.
Translation (Score:1)
Volunteer Motivations (Score:1)
Conventional wisdom in the world of Free Sofware says that most development happens because it scratches somebody's itch. Obviously something else is driving the volunteers at Project Gutenberg, because you must already own a copy of a book before you can scan or type it and contribute it to the project. Yet some volunteers have given a great deal of their time, especially when working on extremely large works (e.g., Gibbons' The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, all 6 volumes).
After many years leading the project, what have you learned about volunteer motivations? What drives them to give so freely? What implications does this have that might change our understanding of Free Software projects?
Re:Project Gutenberg file format (Score:2)
Obtaining releases for copywritten work (Score:1)
What investigations, if any, have you made into obtaining releases or verifying that newer works are available?
Second, what steps do you think could be taken to preserve the legacy of out of print books, given that once they fail to become readily available to the general public, they in essence cease to exist and pass from our collective consciousness?
GNUPedia vs. Nupedia (Score:2)
Can a public domain encyclopedia help? (Score:4)
Re:Project Gutenberg file format (Score:1)
Re:Mutopia (Score:1)
Re:For Mr. Hart (Score:1)
Security Archive (Score:2)
Even if just a hyperlinked list.....Preferrably searchable!?
What exactly is your focus on this 'free' information?
open source OCR software? (Score:2)
Re:When? (Score:1)
This isn't such a silly question, when you think about it. My brother and sister are considerably older than I (17 and 14 years, respectively). When I was in Jr. High I discovered an old encyclopedia my parents bought for them, and I had great fun comparing articles in the old one with the same articles in the current encyclopedia in the school library, seeing how the Conventional Wisdom had changed for some subjects, but hadn't changed for others. I think there would be considerable (well, OK, some) interest in historical encyclopedias, if they were available for PG.
The Human Body (Score:2)
Are you going to turn your lack of a print version into an advantage by doing things the others (I'm thinking WB and EB, not Encarta) can't do on paper?
Re:using text in other works (Score:1)
One difficult issue with GFDL is that everything has to be available in a form that can be edited with free software. This is a big problem for people who do their line art using proprietary software. For example, I did a book [lightandmatter.com] using Adobe Illustrator for the line art. When I decided to open-source the book, it wasn't legally possible for me to use GFDL -- I had to use OPL. In this respect, I think GFDL can be a license in search of a technology.
A related issue is that I don't think Nupedia has really finalized their decisions on what formats to use for illustrations and for equations...?
The Assayer [theassayer.org] - free-information book reviews
Re:Project Gutenberg acceptance in schools (Score:1)
The Assayer [theassayer.org] - free-information book reviews
Re:Top-10 Copyrighted works you want if you could. (Score:1)
Re:PG encoding methods (Score:1)
Re:GNUPedia vs. Nupedia (Score:1)
The Assayer [theassayer.org] - free-information book reviews
a way for pg to make money (Score:1)
Help needed by Nupedia? (Score:4)
- writing articles
- peer reviewing
- editors for certain subject areas
- copyediting
- software work
- software documentation
...?
Certain subject areas (e.g. physics) seem to have some people interesting in writing articles, but don't seem to have enough volunteers for the editorial jobs to get articles through the process. What jobs need to be filled in what areas? Do you think the editorial jobs are hard to fill because people don't want to make enemies?Re software work, Nupedia has just changed over to new software, which seems a little raw. Is it on CVS? Would you like to get offers of help from people with good track records writing open-source software?
Sorry if I sound like a whiner, but as a Nupedia newbie (nubie?), I was pretty discouraged by the lack of understandable, current documentation, and stuff like underlined text that turned out not to be real hyperlinks,...
The Assayer [theassayer.org] - free-information book reviews
extending copyrights issues (Score:1)
I'd like to apply this issue not only to books (the first one which comes into mind) but also to every piece of the human knowledge involved in such things.
Thanks for the attention, long life and prosper!
(and forgive me for the broken english)
iconicism and art (Score:2)
The view has been expressed that as content becomes more freely available, the value placed on objects - such as first editions, or signed copies - will increase.
What does Michael Hart think? Will people be more inclined to buy books for their curiosity/iconic value? Will this reduce the value placed on the content, the thoughts and ideas, as people buy books much as they now buy antiques or works of art? Will this be a good or a bad thing?
Andrew Ó Baoill
Re:Intergration of the two projects? (Score:1)
Re:Intergration of the two projects? (Score:1)
Are the Encyclopedia's from 1971? (Score:1)
What measures are being made, if any, to correct any of the false recorded historical occurences? And what of newer developments that belong in the encyclopedia, but have not yet made it there? Are you Copying it as is, or are you giving yourself a certain amount of free reign with the knowledge?
Degree Required? (Score:1)
The Truth (Score:1)
Re:Encyclopaedias are obsolete (Score:1)
You're quite the interesting karma whore, Chuck. Pick a stance, loosely justify it, and always leave room open for feedback. Too bad there aren't any spots open on Fox News.