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Comic Books And The Internet, Continued 155

Posted by Hemos from the groth-and-sim dept.
A number of readers have written in about the Salon story talking with Gary Groth's recation to Scott McCloud's pieces on the intersection of the comic and the Internet. Groth's feelings are much different then McCloud. I love the comic book format (am currently reading Cerebus, The Dreaming and Bone amongst others) and think is an interesting issue - 'specially considered within the greater question of "art" and digital media.
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Comic Books And The Internet, Continued WORKING ON More

Comic Books And The Internet, Continued WORKING ON

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  • Comics are for young children, not for computers or commuters. Computers are serious business. The Internet is serious business. How are we to find a way to increase profits if you are spending all your time reading comic-books. If you were my employees, I'd have you all flogged.

  • McCloud is right (Score:4, Insightful)

    by steveha ( 103154 ) on Thursday August 09, 2001 @01:40PM (#2113762) Homepage
    Mr. Groth wrote this really long, tedious, steaming pile of words, which all boil down to "net bad, paper good, McCloud sucks". Scott McCloud has some good ideas; not all are practical now, but that is no reason to throw them all out the window and hurl insults at him.

    I really enjoy CRFH [crfh.net]. It's one of my favorites. If there were no Internet comics, I would not be able to read it; it would not exist. The Salon article has a direct quote from the author of CRFH saying just that. Mr. Groth can rant tediously all he wishes, but he won't convince me that a world without CRFH is a better world.

    Even if you think micropayments will never happen the way McCloud describes them, McCloud still deserves some credit. He cares about comics, and wants to see them survive and prosper. As he wrote in his book, market forces in the printed-comics world can crush new comics: you can't get sales unless stores stock your comic, stores won't stock your comic if it's not just another X-Men ripoff. With the web, anyone can put up a new comic, and the good ones can grow by word-of-mouth.

    One last note: if you think Internet comics are all quick gag-a-day strips, you might want to check out the Zot graphic novel [scottmccloud.com]. It's very good!

    steveha

  • comic online has got to be mattbcomic.com ....

    an autobiographical comic that is just so wierd yes so damn funny...
  • I read comic books. But good ones are few and far between. Of late, I haven't been finding anything that really intrigues me at the local comic shop. The last great actual comic book I picked up and really enjoyed was the Johnny The Homicidal Maniac series. "Crackers! Crackers! But no squeezy cheese! Look! David hasselhoff can fly! Whoops, I haven no kiwis! Fucking donut, mock me?!!? ONE-EYED CYCLOPS!!"

    Then again, there's also the compilation books of online and print comics. But that's probably not the type of thing the poll is talking about.

    There should have been another poll choice, "not anymore" (or something to that effect).
  • The first 20 or so issues of "Cerebus" were dynamite. Uneven at first, since Dave Sim didn't fully know what he was doing, but very biting and funny. The only comic book that ever made me laugh out loud. They are available [amazon.com] online or at your local comic book shop, which probably needs the support. Issues 25-50 [amazon.com] were decent. Since then it's just been a bunch of pretentious nothingness. It was a shame when Sim decided he was an Artist. The idea of a catalyst (in this case, the Net) which will allow comics to break through to the mainstream & finally be perceived as a respectable medium is far from new. It was a very big hope in the 80s, during which the direct sales market (i.e., comic book shops that didn't have the same restrictions as your corner drugstore) formed, the second wave of great underground cartoonists (such as Peter Bagge, Dan Clowes and Charles Burns) emerged, and the intelligentsia embraced Art Spiegelman's "Maus" (very overrated, I think, as are most things loved by the elite). This kind of optimism is understandable. People who dedicate their professions and lives to this medium know they are often creating, and are in the presence of, great art. They are greatly frustrated at not seeing the rest of the world share their recognition. I can't blame them. I don't think the Net is an appropriate medium for comics, pretty much for reasons previously mentioned: current monitor quality & resolution can't properly support it, and as the Web continues to become more dynamic, a comparatively static medium such as comics will inevitably give way online to more animation and other neat effects tricks. Strangely, though I agree Groth and disagree with McCloud, I consider McCloud to be a beacon of integrity in the comics industry and Groth to be one of it's biggest jerks. As a publisher, Groth has done much for comics (he has published all of the underground artists I previously mentioned), but as an editor, he has continuously abused his power. I'd never trust him to be putting his true opinion before his own self-interest (perhaps the case here?). Check out this 30,000-word article [harlanellison.com] from Harlan Ellison's Website (reprinted from "Gauntlet" magazine) for an example of what I'm talking about. (However, if Groth were to ever admit that Jaime Hernandez rocked in the first six issues of "Love & Rockets" but has pretty much sucked since then, well, maybe then I'd start to change my opinion...)
  • I have a really old comic of Cerebus, black and white, I don't know how old/rare it really is (probably not much) I just realized it, heh. I didn't even want to read the series, I just got it because I was on a comic book binge, and needed something to buy to complete my buy 1 get 3 membership. I think I looked through it, was grossed out...

    Anyways, the comic that I really liked was something called adventures of the 4d Monkey. Now that was a good comic, but I couldn't find a specific episode, and only got up to around #5. Anyone know what I'm talking about?
  • Via memepool [memepool.com], I've discovered another online comic: Little Gamers [little-gamers.com]. Topics include: Final Fantasy, LAN Parties, and Japanese sake. Give it a look.

  • once again.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bricriu ( 184334 ) on Thursday August 09, 2001 @12:33PM (#2122060) Homepage
    Once again, Sluggy Freelance [sluggy.com] has been passed over in an online article/discussion about comics. It has everything that Salon is bringing up as salient points: long story arcs (not quite as long as the mentioned College Roomies from Hell, but they do intersect and elements from previous arcs come back in later ones), micro-payments, the ability for the artist to make the majority of his money off of it (witness the actual bound books available through Plan 9 Publishing [plan9.org], as well as the assorted "goodies" you can buy), and solid artwork (those who've read Gaiman's Sandman may notice some influence in the often-hauntingly-beautiful The Bug, the Witch, and the Robot [sluggy.com] story arc may see some similarities)...

    Why does it seem that Sluggy has become an online-comics pariah these days? User Friendly gets bashed for being too pro-geek (or whatever), which may or may not be a valid criticism. But Sluggy is just getting forgotten? What gives?
    • While Sluggy Freelance is just about the best online comic strip out there, don't forget one that came even earlier, Bill Holbrook's Kevin & Kell. Kevin & Kell first got wide distribution on a CompuServe forum, and now is distributed on two web sites, www.herdthinners.com and www.kevinandkell.com.
    • Since when is Pete Abrams a pariah? As far as I know, he's still one of the most respected figures in the webcomics world...

      There are other successful online cartoonists who have done a better job of rubbing people the wrong way, but I don't see their press slowing down because of that. Who exactly would a cartoonist have to be a pariah with, anyway? The reporter?

      As far as why it wasn't mentioned, maybe Sluggy's just getting to be a little bit of old news... I mean, a year or so ago, Sluggy was THE webcomic whenever we happened to get any press at all. Thank goodness other strips, equally deserving, are finally getting a bit of the spotlight! That doesn't take anything away from Sluggy, but helps our universe to expand.

      Now all I have to do is figure out why, in a year where fantasy films are dominating the theaters, I can't generate any decent press for Elf Life [elflife.com], dagnabit! :Op

    • Re:once again.... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by jphillip ( 189979 )
      bricriu sez: Once again, Sluggy Freelance has been passed over in an online article/discussion about comics.

      Once again, x-thousand other webcomics got passed over, too... many of them better than Sluggy et al, but not so long-lived or well-hyped. Comics like Irritability [utexas.edu] and Zebra Girl [angelfire.com] are pretty much unheard-of, but are quality stuff. Unfortunately, they aren't as media-friendly as Sluggy or User Friendly.

      So, with all due respect, quit yer complainin'. ;-) There are a lot of webcomics being "forgotten," not just your favourites.

      JOSH.

      • Granted, it's hosted on e-sheep, which was mentioned in the article, but The Guy I Almost Was [e-sheep.com] has to be about the best long form web comic I've read. No stupid gimicks like horizontal scrolling, just good story telling. (God I tried to read that Egyptian comic but gave up because it was too damned annoying.)

        Read it. It's good.

    • Re:once again.... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by squidfood ( 149212 )
      All right, test time:

      With this long list of favorite online comics from all you guys, how many of you have (paypal etc.) paid for them? How much?

      • I think I've paid around 20 dollars to my two favorites right now (sluggy and PA)... I would pay for more, but I'm a poor-arse college student.

        Btw- shameless plug.

        Rabid @ SLC [rabidcomics.com] You know you want it.

        Keef
    • This is my comic.
      Is it not nifty?
      Worship the comic.

      Sluggy Frelance os by far one of the best online comics out there. It and Mega Tokyo [megatokyo.com] are great sources of entertainment.

      • Re:once again.... (Score:2, Insightful)

        by MtViewGuy ( 197597 )
        I like Sluggy Freelance for two reasons:

        1. Because it is self-published, it is not subject to potential censorship by editors at the distribution syndicate. Let's face it--many of the storylines in Sluggy Freelance would never pass muster with syndicate censors.

        2. The comic has done several extremely long story arcs that distribution syndicates often frown upon. Remember in 1999 with the time machine that went haywire, which built up to the famous Stormbreaker Saga?

        Sure, Sluggy Freelance may not be perfect all the time, but it's still vastly superior than most syndicated comics you read in the newspaper comics sections nowadays.
    • User Friendly gets bashed for being too pro-geek (or whatever), which may or may not be a valid criticism.

      Personally, I think that User Friendly [userfriendly.org] rocks! AFAIK it is the only comic book that I know of published by O'Reilly [oreilly.com]

      But Sluggy is just getting forgotten? What gives?

      I have read Sluggy, and it is not very consistent. Sometimes it is hilarious, other times it was a total waste of bandwidth. But that's just my opinion.

    • Re:once again.... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Masem ( 1171 )
      I think a key aspect is that when the comic is a episodic read, requiring the user to visit day after day, overly-long plot lines (as opposed to long-term character development) will bog down a user as they would have to remember more and more day after day. In addition, some readers will not like every character or twist that was given that character, and focusing for too long on the same character can cause of lost of readership.

      Which is the problem that Sluggy is having now. The Bug/Witch/Robot plot, while good, lasted for 2 months, and the current Microuniverse story is at least 2 months and still going with no sign of resolution, and as it continues, it's getting weaker as Pete's used up most of the pop culture references that he can. Take a look back at the first year or so of Sluggy and you'll see plots that lasted two or three weeks at most, or for extended plots, there were breaks that looked back at the other characters to see what they were up to.

      It's not that Sluggy's terrible, but I can vouch that others that had read it regularly prior to 2001 have stopped reading it because of these super long plot lines. I'm still getting the odd laugh from the current line, and I know that at some point we'll have hit the 'reset' button to get Torg and Riff back.

      • Re:once again.... (Score:3, Insightful)

        by bricriu ( 184334 )
        I think the problem is that these super-long story lines make great reading in archived form... that is, when they're all strung together. When reading the old Bloom County collections (I never read the dailies), I used to get pissed if a storyline was less than a week long. Part of what Groth is whining about -- the short attention span of readers -- is part and parcel of the one-a-day thing. You're right... things do seem dull when you get them in dribs and drabs. I just wish Groth would try releasing some of his in a daily format, and see how well it does.....
    • Perhaps Sluggy is being ignored because it sucks right now.

      No, seriously. The whole `Stormbreaker Saga' was incredibly good. I read three years of the strip in two afternoons. But lately, Pete Abrams has taken to wholesale quoting of pop culture with a small dash of funny on the top.

      For Sluggy's sake, Pete, LOBO hasn't been cool for almost ten fscking years!

      Plus, Pete's not on Keenspot. Not they didn't mention BBoCS [hotzp.com] or SexyLosers [sexylosers.com] (formerly THL) either.

      I think it's all part of the Anti-McCloud-Keenspot-industrial complex. Yeah.

      -grendel drago

      • But lately, Pete Abrams has taken to wholesale quoting of pop culture with a small dash of funny on the top.

        I've actually enjoyed it quite a bit lately, mostly because it's funny. Anyone can write a long, twisted story arc and argue how good it is, what's great about Sluggy is how many daily strips Pete manages to end with a punchline. The current storyline is pretty silly but I've been getting a chuckle from it nearly every day. It is true that humor is subjective, but if you don't find Sluggy funny then you're getting a lot less from it than I am.

        • I suppose I was just spoiled because I really, really enjoyed the long, involved story arcs, and this seems like it's lowering itself from `Non Sequitur' to `Garfield'.

          And not all long arc are good... GPF [gpf-comics.com] had some inklings of that floating around ("... the GAMESTER!"), but the creator just does much better with short, punchline-y strips.

          And, of course, THL/SexyLosers has *no* plot, unless you count running gags as plot.

          -grendel drago
      • Ok, you have a point -- 2 points. The current storyline is so-so, maybe even sub-par. But "Kitten" and "Bug/Witch/Robot" were brilliant and beautifully excecuted. Even wonders like Bloom County and Calvin & Hobbes had their off weeks.

        As for Keenspot, you're right... they're growing increasingly well-known, etc. And that's not a bad thing: lots of their strips are great, and they've gained mass noteriety (not least for their Keenspace [keenspace.com] program) in a way Fleen and Big Panda never really did.
        • Actually, I view keenspot as a rather serious problem. They place the keenspot brand far more prominently than that of the comics, even on the comics' individual pages. I think they appear to be trying to position themselves to be the comic syndication industry of the internet.

          And ultimately, with respect to Sluggy, I think their systems are much better than Keenspot (e.g. no cookies required for ad-free, no limits on logins, better archives, etc.) and I imagind Pete Abrams gets more money from his systems than he would from Keen.
        • Yes, ``Kitten'' was phenomenal. Even if the `crotch' gag got a little old. I still vote for the whole K'Z'K/Stormbreaker arc as ``best... episode(s)... ever!'' 'Cause they were. I didn't know you could do that with online comics, but Pete Abrams did it. A story arc of depth and complexity to rival the graphic novel. With lots of slapstick.

          But I beg to differ on your other point---even when Bloom County and Calvin and Hobbes were bad, they were still good. Sluggy is just... dull right now.

          -grendel drago
          • Even if the `crotch' gag got a little old.

            C'mon! How can anyone get tired of Bert yelling "The World is a Crotch!"?

            It's funny 'cause it's true...

    • Unicorn Jelly [unicornjelly.com] is great. It's great in strange ways.

      Personally, I don't like any single feature of it (except, perhaps, Taasen, the chess-like spinoff game, which is unequivocally awesome). I don't like the cutesy otaku in-jokes, I don't like the oddball fractal universe, I don't like the monochrome art, I don't like the gay adventurers, I don't like the distasteful origin of the main character, etc. But somehow the whole of it just works and is entertaining.

      I can't explain it, I just enjoy it. It's definitely worth a look.
  • Goats [goats.com] has a blurb on this as well, in addition to Jon's other dealings with McCloud: I had a long and scintillating phone conversation with Scott McCloud last night, where he revealed to me that he's actually a demon from outer space. -- Jon, goats.com

    Goats is one of many great online comics, but happens to be my favorite.

  • online the equalizer (Score:2, Interesting)

    by boboroshi ( 239125 )
    The thing about the internet we all realize now is that it gives you a level playing field. You don't need a deal with DC to publish a comic. You just need Flash. And that will create a lot of extra stuff out there that the end user must weed through. But then you'll find something really cool and also free.

    like this [pagancity.com]. or the stuff they were doing at lucasfilm. It's a whole new alteration of the technology. And it's pretty cool.

    • Re:online the equalizer (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Read up on Devid Sims' Cerebus: You never needed DC to publish a comic book. Small scale printing is within the financial grasp of anyone who wants the heartbreaking and unceasing labor of owning and consequently marketing their own intellectual product. It's not easy but it's always been around. When you consider the cost of a decent computer, registering a place on the 'net, and getting reliable scalable hosting, the startup economics of self-publishing a printed comic book are very reasonable. Most geeks have a computer already for other purposes so it just seems like it's "free" publishing. More to the point, economics of self-publishing on the internet are very shaky and untested. You're going to have to work hard and hussle to make money off of comics regardless of your medium.

      For the relative minority of people who have home access to a decent computer, sure, the internet makes self-publishing damn near anything just for the hell of it into a cost-effective enterprise. But the idea that it's revolutionizing the average artists' access to making a living at his/her craft is pure utopian B.S. There still isn't a level playing field because money can always buy you a louder voice, bigger pipes, better access, a spot on the main stage. The relatively non-commercial nature of open searching tools like Google does make for a slightly more egalitarian world for creators - but to really consolidate the equalizing powers of the internet into a level playing field will take a lot of work and a lot of organization by both creators and consumers.

      • Re:online the equalizer (Score:1, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Jeff Z. again.

        Okay, your point is a good one. However, we did a fairly exhaustive study of what it takes to effectively self-publish a comic like MFH, and the minimum financial investment comes out to about $50,000 per year. As you say, not out of the realm of possibility, but certainly not cheap. And that's not counting the time investment, which is essentially ALL of your time. We did give the print version a shot... and it nearly bankrupted me personally because I was working on the comic the whole time (didn't have a day job, was working freelance on top of the comic) and we didn't see any money from the print version because we couldn't get it into the distribution system (a whole topic in itself).

        You're right, we're not AT THIS TIME going to be able to make a living from MFH in terms of getting direct payment for access to the comic online. We do hope that EVENTUALLY there will be an effective infrastructure in place to support that. In the meantime we will use all the various indirect methods, mostly merchandising and such, to try to generate some income. And, once we have enough material, we WILL collect it in print and enter the book market. No reason not to.

        The big advantage to doing this on the Web is that I can keep a good day job with good pay and benefits while turning out the comic at a reasonable pace - and still have time to myself to enjoy some life. Plus, we can get the story told and hopefully get people interested. It seems to be working so far.

        Yes, a bigger budget would allow us to market MFH more effectively. Big budgets are necessary if you want to make a big splash as rapidly as possible. However, to get a big budget like that, you usually have to sign a contract with a big media corp - which almost always involves signing away your copyrights to your work. Chris (my writer) and I are ADAMANT that we will NOT do this with MFH (tho we have other ideas that we would) unless and until MFH is no longer fun or interesting for us to do. Plus, since we are both gainfully employed elsewhere, we're not starving to try to cash in big on MFH overnight. We are in a situation where we are comfortable with putting MFH up on the Web and using much lower-intensity promotion methods to grow our audience more organically, via word-of-mouth and some very carefully targeted advertising and partnerships. We're not in a hurry.

        By the way, do NOT underestimate the power of word-of-mouth on the web. Because of boboroshi's link in his initial post, 50 people have visited http://www.pagancity.com in the last 5 hours. Hopefully some of them will like the story and keep coming back. Thanks, boboroshi! :)

        This wouldn't make sense for everyone, but it makes sense for us. If MFH gets tired for us, we'll figure something else out. If we are able to generate enough interest that big media companies come around looking to buy MFH, we'll consider that as well. Meanwhile, we'll tell our story and see what happens.

        Jeff Zugale, artboy
        www.pagancity.com
    • You don't need a deal with DC to publish a comic. You just need Flash.

      You don't even need flash. Really now, what is the advantage of using flash for a static image comic (other than zooming)?

      • Re:online the equalizer (Score:1, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Hi, this Anonymous Coward is actually Jeff the artist on Mystic For Hire. The advantages to using Flash even for a static image are NOT in fact "Kapow, Bam, Sock" or whatever was posted, they are: 1. Much higher art and type quality than bitmapped formats. No jaggies, the lettering stays crisp, and the viewer can zoom in if they want and it still looks good. 2. File Size. MFH is published on our homepage at 640x480. If I did it as a JPEG or GIF it would be 120-190 kilobytes - too damn big, too long a download, too much bandwidth. The Flash files are mostly between 40-60K, a much more palatable download for modem folks, and will allow us to have more readers before our server bill increases. Very important. Draw Once, Publish Many. MFH is also published at http://www.toonorama.com in a smaller format, 500x375. Using Flash, I can use the exact same file for both formats, I don't have to generate two different bitmaps. Saves time, and again, bandwidth and server space. Also, since I use Illustrator to create the art, I can use it to actually print paper books, should we decide to do that, and I don't need a monster hard drive to hold all the 20MB Photoshop files I'd need to do it in print format. It just works better. Plus almost everyone's got the Flash Player. And we can do neat stuff like today's (8/10) comic. Jeff Zugale, artboy www.pagancity.com
      • Apparently, PNG is the new trendy format [schlockmercenary.com] for online comics.

        Finally, a trend I can get behind! ;-)
      • Really now, what is the advantage of using flash for a static image comic (other than zooming)?

        3 advantages:

        KAPOW!

        BLAM!
        BIFF!

  • friction sucks unless it's intimate (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rstevens ( 190122 ) on Thursday August 09, 2001 @12:34PM (#2124671) Homepage
    maybe i'm biased, but why does there have to be friction between web and paper comics? we can help each other grow, especially if you use web strips to help sell paper books to people who don't go to comic shops. (gee, and that's only 99% of humans in the USA)
  • I live here in Seattle and have hung out with Donna Barr, Pete Bagg, Roberta Gregory and others and have even met Gary myself and sat down and chatted with him in his office and I can tell you first hand... he is an a numero uno asshole. You can ask just about any one of the artists who has worked with him.

    Fantagraphics (Gary's Company) has this self defeating ideal that comics should be art. I however disagree to a certain extent. Art does NOT reach the mainstream; the masses do not understand art. Aside from that, he (like most old school comic creators) fears the next wave where technology and computers meld into one.

    I have the utmost respect for Scott with the exception that he gives advice about the internet and the web and how it will effect comics. I helped build the buying department at Amazon.com and went down to the Alternative Press Expo to promote a comic I was working on and see how others were adapting to the web back in 1997. The only thing I saw down there was some moron trying to sell comics on CD. Pathetic! Comics have been underground for the longest time and not a hacker amung them.

    Well anyway, I got to talking with quite a few people and I was asked during a session about the web and comics to get up and give a talk about how it would change the face of comics and what would happen.

    Needless to say, when Scott's new book came out about the digital medium and comics, I jumped on it and was thoroughly disappointed. He hadn't clue one what the hell he was talking about; it might as well have been a coloring book for kids as that's how useful I found the information... boring old rhetoric.

    Scott, do NOT attempt to tell us about the web and the internet and how it will affect us especially when you still use a Mac. And Gary, get a personality transplant because the old one has worn through.

  • Comic books are cool but (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Pxtl ( 151020 ) on Thursday August 09, 2001 @12:29PM (#2129906) Homepage
    Unfortunately, like everything else, they suffer from Sturgeons Law (states that 90% of everything is crap) just like everything else. And, with the prices they go at these days, its not worth keeping up with a series that looks like it has potential, and its a pain to play catch-up with a series that just got good but you don't have the first 9 issues. After realizing how much better I could spend $4 Canadian, I got out of that. Also, anyone else notice that the quality of a comic is inversely proportional to the length of its run?
    • I stopped buying single issues about 3 years ago when i decided once and for all that I wan't buying comics to collect them, but to read them. If you are into reading comics and don't give a damn what they will be worth in next month's price guide, just start picking up Trade Paperbacks. Up here in Canada Trade Paperbacks can still be on the expensive side (around the same price as or a few bucks more than your average new hardcover novel), but if you do a bit of research on what you are buying beforehand, this isn't such a big deal because you are more than likely going to enjoy whatever you choose. I personally stay away from most spandex superhero stuff, except for certain Batman Mini-Series' such as Year One, The Killing Joke, the Long Halloween, and The Dark Knight Returns. For non-superhero fair I collect a lot of Frank Miller books, Transmetropolitan, Preacher, Bone, Cerebus, and just recently Lone Wolf and Cub.
    • I have three little words for those who have nothing good to read in the world of comics: The Red Star

    • Marvel's Ultimate titles are worth the cost and all of Image's are worth it from what I've seen so far. Same goes for much of what Viz publishes too. Here in the states I pay on average $2.25-$2.50 per comic, but they're worth it now more than ever. I remember when comics were mostly geared toward more simplistic audiences, had slightly rushed art and were only $1.25. That extra $1-$.25 has added an incredible amount of value to the comics I buy. The art is extremely good and the stories are quite good, especially ones like Spawn (check out Spawn, Spawn: The Undead, HellSpawn and The Dark Ages!!), Witchblade and the Darkness all by Image.

      I don't know how your tax code works, but one of the ways that I am able to avoid extra costs is by subscribing. A single Marvel subscription saves 3USD and the more you do the more you save like 2 subs is 8USD and 3 is 15USD off the annual cost which wouldn't be much anyway. Just a thought

    • Re:Comic books are cool but (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      After realizing how much better I could spend $4 Canadian

      Gumball? New shoelaces? Can of "pop"?

    • Actually, I believe that while Sturgeons Law is still in effect for comic books, the ratio is more like 80% crap (as opposed to say may 95% for movies). The reason? There is no money in comic books anymore! As a creator [oddjob.net], I've been in the business for 8 odd years and watched the progressive decline. This is sad, but it also means that the people who are still left, especially in alternative comics, are in the business because they truly love it. The irony is that the less comics I see come out, the greater the ratio of good/bad. Why don't you see them? Why don't people know about Pablo's Inferno, Somnombulo, Highway 13, Gear, Pistolwhip, The Great Unknown, Acme Novelty Library, Jim, Non, etc?... The distribution channel is now exactly one distributer-Diamond. It is a monopoly, possibly worse than M$. Diamond only stocks books that it thinks it can sell: superhero dreck and cheap sleaze. So get out there! Go to conventions! Check out comics on the net. There's a renaissance going on right now, you just got to find it!
      • Why don't you see them? Why don't people know about Pablo's Inferno, Somnombulo, Highway 13, Gear, Pistolwhip, The Great Unknown, Acme Novelty Library, Jim, Non, etc?

        I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never been impressed with the indie comics I've occasionally run across. Mindlessly depressing, and I don't really go for that "grim irony" thing...
    • That's why I buy only trade paperbacks. And then only ones that are recommended by trusted friends or comic-shop employees that I really trust. I don't mind paying $15 for 8 issues of Transmet or something that is really worth reading (Cerebus, etc), but I do resent paying $2.95 for a single book that sucks.

      I have bought all of the Transmet books to date, and Alan Moore's Top Ten (which was just cancelled, damnit) in TPB format, and feel like I've gotten my money's worth out of them. I'm not a collector, just a reader, so this arrangement suits me fine. Plus the trade paperbacks fit on a shelf better. :)

      • Yeah but... $20-30 US (not atypical for many graphic novels---Jimmy Corrigan for example is $30) is still a lot. I almost never buy hardback novels for that price, why should I pay that for a comic I'll read in half the time? There are several times I've picked up really good looking graphic novels, seen the price, and went and bought 2-3 paperback novels (or 2 CDs) instead.

        I realize that these things are high quality art, etc., but this is pricing itself right out any audience that isn't pure fanboy. If I want to read the whole Lord of the Rings Saga, I pay $20-30. The whole Cerebus line? $300 at least, trade paperback. That's an order of magnitude, people.

        (ps. I'm partially playing Devil's advocate here. I've almost got all of Cerebus up to the present, but it took a long time to do and I spend much more on other things in the meantime).

    • Also, anyone else notice that the quality of a comic is inversely proportional to the length of its run?

      Yes and I have noticed many great comics that turn to crap later in the series as the publisher try to milk it out for as much as money as possible..
      • Fortunately the submitter (Hemos?) name-dropped 3 good ones that have had long runs with (here's the key) creators that have a love of comics and a strong sense of integrity. WELL worth 4 bucks Canadian, or $15-20 for the collections (saves time and money not hunting down back issues).

        Related side note: When is the dude that does cerebus.org [cerebus.org] going to update that thing?!

    • Re:Comic books are cool but (Score:5, Informative)

      by iapetus ( 24050 ) on Thursday August 09, 2001 @12:48PM (#2152123) Homepage

      So rely on personal recommendations and pick up the comics in collected graphic novel format rather than on a monthly basis.

      Some series that I'd recommend:

      • Lenore (Roman Dirge) - Very sick and twisted, some genuinely thought-provoking stuff in here. Outstanding stuff, now available in two collections.
      • Transmetropolitan (Warren Ellis) - Some real bite in this one from time to time, though I miss the one-offs from the earlier parts of the series. Still running, but a fair few collections available.
      • Preacher (Garth Ennis) - Don't read it if you're offended by the odd bit of blasphemy, but for anyone else it's great stuff.
      • Sandman (Neil Gaiman) - Buy it. Now. All of it.

      • More recommendations (Score:5, Insightful)

        by DreamingReal ( 216288 ) <dreamingreal&yahoo,com> on Thursday August 09, 2001 @02:32PM (#2151683) Homepage
        All of those you recommended are *great* series. Most of the incredible things I'm reading at the moment are not in the superhero genre either (although there are good books there as well). Here's some more -

        • Palooka-Ville - by Seth. Published by Drawn & Quarterly [drawnandquarterly.com]. Pick up the collected story arc, It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken. It's a semi-autobiographical account about the author's quest to find an obscure New Yorker artist (drawn in a New Yorker style).
        • Ghost World, David Boring, or anything else by Daniel Clowes. This guy is one of the best writers in Indie comics. Sharp, dark humor. Published by Fantagraphics [fantagraphics.com].
        • Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid on Earth - By Chris Ware. This one is available at Barnes & Noble and Borders. Collected from the Acme Novelty Library series. A heart-wrenching story about a pathetic man who meets his father for the first time. The best series I read last year and Ware is the greatest hope for comics being taken as a serious medium. Also published by Fantagraphics.
        • Optic Nerve - By Adrian Tomine. Published by Drawn & Quarterly. One of the most promising young talents in indie comics. Pick up Sleepwalk and other stories, which collects issues 1 - 4 of Optic Nerve. Short stories about real people. Brilliant work.
        • From Hell - By Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell. Moore's analysis of Jack the Ripper is frightening, shocking, and enthralling. I've read this series three times and I still haven't absorbed everything. Available in a collected edition at B&N and Borders.
        • Maus - By Art Spiegelman. Winner of the Pulitzer Prize. One of the most overlooked treasures in comics. This book stands in the shadow of Watchmen when people talk about the best comics produced in the 80's. A masterpiece narrative about the Holocaust. This is the torch-bearer for greatness in the comics medium.
        • Anything by Brian Michael Bendis - This guy is reigniting the Marvel line with his work on Elektra and Ultimate Spider-Man but some of his best work was done at Image Comics. Pick up Jink and Torso, both available in TPB.
        And a few other quick recommedations: Non by Jordan Crane, Jar of Fools and Berlin by Jason Lutes, the re-issued B&W TPB of Akira and Oh My Goddess! both published by Dark Horse, and Peter Milligan on X-Force. Phew! Any one who says that comics are dead isn't reading any. There are spectacular things going on in the medium at the moment. With sales down, publishers like Marvel and DC are taking more risks. The result? Some of the best comics from these companies in the last ten years. And like I've outlined, Indie comics are still churning out *great* books.

        For even more recommendations and some damn good thoughts on the comics industry as a whole, read Warren Ellis' series Come In Alone at Comic Book Resources [comicbookresources.com]. A collected, dead-tree version is also available (which I have and strongly recommend).


      • I know, I know - me too me too... but I've never actually seen anyone mention this one.

        Stray Bullets by David Lapham is one phenominal book. The story arcs are fantasticly articulate, character development is deep and the art is great. And he pulls it all off in black and white using nothing but dialog and emotion. Highly recommended. I know he hates the comparison, but if you like Miller, you'll love Lapham.

        For fun, there's a web site [straybullets.com], but it doesn't seem to be serving at the moment. He's not really one to embrace this whole 'net comic thing anyway (to stay on topic).

      • Preacher. Ugh. I had that series recommended to me by someone who I thought had decent taste in comics. It is the bloody worst piece of infantile tripe I've ever had the misfortune to read. It was like reading a role-playing campaign run by 14 year old boys with ADD. Maybe it was just the series I read ("Gone to Texas"), but I wouldn't get anywhere near another series by these clowns after that experience. I feel dumber for having read it.

        Avoid Preacher. But definitely read anything by Frank Miller, especially "Sin City" and "That Yellow Bastard".

        Sandman is good too.

        /bluesninja

    • Unfortunately, like everything else, they suffer from Sturgeons Law (states that 90% of everything is crap) just like everything else.

      All of your agruments have nothing specific to do with comics, and everything to do with your pessimistic outlook on the world.

      With any medium it's that 10% that is what makes the 90% worth it. Or haven't you looked lately?

  • It seems that the Offline comics are starting to feel threatened by the online comics. It's a shame that it has to lead to a "confrontation" like this.

    I started reading comics as a way to learn about user interface (the ammount of information that they convey in a small space is incredible), and got hooked. I read a steady mix of both paper and online, though the paper comics that I read are mostly illustrated novels. I don't relaly differentiate between the two - same thing (roughly) different medium. If it weren't for illustrated novels, I wouldn't have ever started with comics - but it it weren't for online comics, I wouldn't have stayed.

  • The internet is a wonderfully various place for comics to be distributed. Comic books ahve a history of taking innovative approaches to complex problems. This is a good thing and i applaud it.
  • I can't imagine what I'd do without online comics! I think the 'net is indespensible for any artist who doesn't want to compromise ideas for mass media. Yes, I love Dilbert just as much as the rest, but it's rarely that I get a real laugh out of it anymore. Most of the paper comics (and I'm thinking newspaper, mostly because I'm too cheap to buy comic books/manga/graphic novels) just don't have the same ability to adapt and don't have the "edge" that online comics do.

    Sit down and read PVP [pvponline.com]. It is likely one of the funniest comics (paper or e-) available today. And, conveniently, it's also one that has bridged the gap, releasing a comic book as well as the online content. However it wouldn't have happened without the 'net. Back in the day when "For better or for worse" came out with a gay character, (it's the best example I can think of), a LOT of newspapers dropped it. Now compare that to something like PVP or Penny Arcade [penny-arcade.com]. If it were up to the syndicates, these would have never happened. We need online comics to support creativity, and not have to pander to the masses.

    And if you're looking for edge (WARNING: this is extreme edge), there;s always Rehabilitating Mr. Wiggles [neilswaab.com]. It's as close to "edge" as you can get, but in a depraved, violent way. NOT recommended for kids.

  • "It takes three hours to read a serious comic book," he says. "Most people want to read a comic in three minutes."

    How long does it take this guy to read the comics in the paper? Doesn't Goth realize the short attention-span comics in the paper created comic art (The Yellow Kid in The New York World [neponset.com] started the whole chebang in 1894)?

    Maus was, and still is, amazing. The CD-ROM version including audio interviews with Art's grandfather mixed with imagery from Auschwitz is extremely moving. I don't think people will confuse some of the comics that are being published on the net with works like Maus. Art, and others, will still be able to publish in places like The New Yorker where I'm happy to read it.

    But writing off new forms of media for your art is always dangerous, because it never works. These guys need to remember comic art that tackles tough social and political issues faced the same criticisms they're making of the web as a comic art distribution method.

  • The problem is converging media. So many disciplines have been brought to the same tool (the computer) that the previous dividing lines of capital investment in resources (artist, writers, ink, pencils, animation stand, film, cameras) has been replaced by a ubiquitous media which can nearly instantaneously convert between the visual information created in any program. So when all the tools are in one place and they gentrify (nearly every word-processing program looks the same, nearly every image manipulation tool looks like PhotoShop) the medium will evolve/morph to apply the previous unattainable and sub-cultures which favor each subset will rise. These growing pains in art appear every time new technology is used to change how images are produced. Markets may grow or diminish do to the rise of new technology but when it comes to art techniques are rarely lost or abandoned.
    The cultural implications are rather silly as well. I went to art school in the infant days of the web. I also did a major at University of Illinois at Chicago called electronic media (its BFA degree). It has existed in some form since the '70's. I spent a lot of time while I was in school agonizing over not being accepted by traditional artist as an artist then I realized it didn't matter who thought I was artist what matters is you believe in what you create. Trying to understand a new media from traditional point of view is great for aesthetics but not for a cultural reaction.
  • I find it curious that the article was exclusively "comic books vs internet comics", and ignored any comparison to comic STRIPS. Are the newspaper comics strips simply not considered an art form? Or was it simply that they had comic book authors' opinions on file and wanted to show them venting about the new medium?
    • Well, I *was* in the process of moderating this story, but it merits a post.

      The vast majority of online comics (Sluggy, Goats, PVP, Avalon, Absurd Notions, Triangle and Robert) follow a relatively straight-forward three or four panel format (though Sluggy has proven that this isn't an absolute, merely a quick and occasionally preferred method to tell the story), exactly like newspaper comic strips.

      Here's the difference: Online, you can say "fuck", deal with important topics (relative to the thrust of the comic) and are completely and totally free of editors and syndicate hacks breathing down your neck. Online comics can experiment with layout and story telling, and many of these feature long-running plots and serious character development. Not only that, but you can easily browse through the previous strips to get yourself up to speed (set aside a full weekend if you want to catch up on sluggy). Compare to newspaper strips, where you're lucky if you can find yesterday's paper in the trashcan.

      I've laughed my ass off at Goats- tactical use of Weebles, Johnny Cash and Oompa Loompas prove that Jon has a uniquely twisted mind deserving of comic fans attention. The closest I've come to laughing at a newspaper strip is Dilbert, simply because none of it is fiction- though it may be to the author. Office people really *are* that stupid.

      Dilbert is the exception to the rule, and it also suffers from the flaws that plague newspaper comics- shite artwork, no plot or storylines beyond something that may last, say, a week (tops), and generally not even worth reading.

      When was the last time you sprained an abdominal muscle laughing at Peanuts, Dilbert, or any of the hundreds of pustulant, vomitous masses of diarrhea that propagate the newspaper?

      There's no screening process for online comic artists- all they need is art supplies, a scanner (if that), and a web connection. There's no lowest common denominator- you make the daily comics page out of your bookmarks file and go to town.

      And of course, online comics are akin to newspaper comics in that 90% of them are shit (go ahead and mod me down, but I firmly place Superiosity and User Friendly in the majority here) - but there are *so many* of them that you're bound to find something good. Unlike the newspaper, where that 10% of "good" fits in at the bottom of the 90% of crappy online comics.

    • I find it curious that the article was exclusively "comic books vs internet comics", and ignored any comparison to comic STRIPS. Are the newspaper comics strips simply not considered an art form?

      That's what struck me as strange about one of Groth's points (as quoted by Salon -- I haven't read his original essay). Groth and the Journal treat comic strips as seriously as they treat comic books, so why is Groth using the similarity between web comics and newspaper strips as a reason to dismiss web comics? He doesn't dismiss Krazy Kat or Pogo or Peanuts as being inherently inferior to Love and Rockets or Eightball. At least, I don't remember having seen him do that, and until recently I read the Journal religiously.

      A big part of Groth's personality is his willingness to be in-your-face with "extreme" opinions about things that nobody outside the world of hardcore comics geekdom really even knows (let alone cares) about. I don't think that a blanket dismissal of the entire form is a good launching point for a serious discussion about the future of online comics -- it's like opening a conversation about the future of television syndication by insisting that any sitcom shot on video instead of film is inherently worthless...

  • The Internet as a training ground (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mykepredko ( 40154 ) on Thursday August 09, 2001 @04:39PM (#2148951) Homepage
    An important point that doesn't seem to have been addressed in this topic is the ability of the Internet to be used as a training/recruiting ground for new artists and writers.

    Regardless of what is the "right answer", the Internet is a valuable tool for comic producers to develop their drawing/character styles and sharpen their ability to tell a story or a joke. At the same time, they can make a few bucks either from banner ads or in the form of micropayments (McCloud's concept).

    For the publisher, it gives them a chance to see what the aspiring artist or writer can do along with seeing their ability to create for an extended period of time.

    If there are forums for feedback, it gives both parties a chance to see what the ultimate customer thinks of it and where improvements have to be made.

    So regardless of how the final product is produced, the Internet has a useful purpose in developing and testing talent.

    myke

  • RTFM solved if ... (Score:4, Funny)

    by beanerspace ( 443710 ) on Thursday August 09, 2001 @01:08PM (#2151270) Homepage
    Okay, here's a wild hare of an idea that'll probably klobber my karma ...

    Perhaps we could get users to read the manual if they were in comic book format ? And it doesn't have to be anything cheezy ... I remember spending hours sitting on the edge of the couch pouring over Classic's Illustrated [classicscentral.com] renderings of this novel or that.

    Sure, it'll have it's limitations, just the same way trying to use a Classic's for a book report on Moby Dick is [shorewalker.com] ... but at least the user will have a clue.

    • That's not so far-fetched. The US army has a history of using comic-books as training manuals. I know they hired a famous comic artist (Will Eisner?) to illustrate some of them. It worked really well.

      The real problem is that there aren't any manuals any more. Half the software you buy these days is downloaded, and the rest come with a dinky lttle manual that's little more that the installation instructions. If the fat, bloated software moguls would start shipping hardcopy with their software again it would be a start.

    • Been done before.

      How do you get an illiterate grunt to clean his M16? Give him a comic book.

      Manuals for software in comic book format would be a hell of a lot better than paper docs with pictures of the UI, I mean, who ever came up with that idea?
    • [...]read the manual if they were in comic book format ?

      Oooo. I like that idea.

      Maybe we could get Larry Gonick (of "Cartoon History of the Universe vols' 1 and 2" and "Cartoon Guide to Genetics" and several others) to do a few O'Reilly publications...

      (Hey, if you can do "The Cartoon Guide to Physics" and/or "The Cartoon Guide to Statistics", why not "The Cartoon Guide to Perl Compatible Regular Expressions" and whatnot?)

    • My girlfriend actually has a wonderful comic edition of Rime of the Ancient Mariner by Coleridge that she loaned to me when I had to read it for an English class. I love the poem, but the illustrated version really brought it to life and made it funny. The style was like Mad Magazine (or Sergio Argonnes' Groo) and made it a much more enjoyable read.

      Those "The Cartoon Guide to [Sex, Physics, Biology, History, etc]" seem to be selling well, which is a testament to the idea too.

  • Ughh... Too many levels of abstraction. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Giant Hairy Spider ( 467310 ) on Thursday August 09, 2001 @12:44PM (#2151371)
    Here we are, posting comments on a link to commentary on a review of an analysis of the future of a medium for a mode of expression.

    Now people are going to moderate these comments, and meta-moderate the moderation, and probably comment on both level of moderation.

    Given the typical error factor in each level of analysis, there is a near certainty that there is no meaningful connection between this discussion and physical reality.

    So does this mean we've gone insane or that we've evolved into creatures of pure thought and energy?

  • I love comics, I don't enjoy reading them online. To much of it is in the detail of the art, the feel of the paper.

    I think there are some amazing comics out there In someways I allways felt that there was a connection between the independent minded comics and open source.

    You realy should read some of these.

    The Watchman (quis custodiet ipsos custodes.)

    Ronin

    From Hell

    Electra

    The Sandman

    Anything by R. Crumb

    the list goes on and on. I have yet to see anything as good as those online. Am I missing anything?

  • Max Payne (Score:3, Informative)

    by Masem ( 1171 ) on Thursday August 09, 2001 @12:44PM (#2151628)
    Check out Max Payne, a recently released game for Windows; it's a John Woo/Matrix inspired modern-day cop story in a 3rd person (over the shoulder cam) environment. Gameplay is excellent, but what relates it to this /. story is that the plot is carried by a strong graphic-novel display. That is, instead of the cutscene cliche, you're taken to a display of panels from a graphic novel, the panels fully voiced and sound fx'ed when appropriate, along with music in the BG. The bottom of the screen during these points gives access to a VCR-like control set so that you can go back and forth through those scenes that you saw.

    If that aspect of the game was removed and used as a foundation for eComicBooks, along with the ability to get good voice actors to help with voicing, they could really take off, knowing full well that they will be expensive too.

  • Divergent Media (Score:2, Interesting)

    by mykepredko ( 40154 )
    Interesting day; along with this topic, there is an article on the failure of e-books. All this seems to indicate to me that different types of content is best distributed using different media.

    I respect both McCloud and Groth and feel that they are both correct. I read 10-15 comic books a week (and I have been doing it for 30 years now) and I love going back and re-reading the books. I also look at seven or eight strips per day and don't miss not having them on paper. There are also quite a few Flash animations that I have put on CDR.

    Before the Internet can be used to reliably present the different types of materials that have been talked about here, there are a number of technical challenges that have to be met.

    I find that no matter how good the display is, the subtleties of the work in a panel is lost - this is especially true for hand painted books (Look at Jeff Smith and Charles Vess' "Rose" series to see what I mean). Strips do not have this limitation and many of the most successful strips use the drawings as a framework for the story/joke - Going with this, how successful do you think Scott Adams would be if he was constantly compared to artists like Curt Swan?

    Another is the speed of the Internet and PC equipment. I have a cable modem at home, but often I am waiting for a new graphic to come up or to retrieve a previously read one. There is a certain kinematic sense that is part of a comic book that the Internet cannot yet simulate (although for a strip or a Flash file, their nature transcends this problem).

    I do not believe that motion can be adequately modelled using simple animation. Most animation that I have seen in comics is really "eye candy" that very rarely is integral to the scene/story/joke. I suspect that substantial animation that works with the story requires more work than is reasonable for a monthly (comic) book or daily strip. But for many Flash media presentations, simple animation adds more than what would be expected for the amount of work that is required.

    While I feel that the different forms of visual entertainment are being presented in the appropriate format, this does not mean that things won't change in the future.

    It is probably good that McCloud and Groth are having these discussions/arguments, but I would expect that either technology changes to make the choice/answer obvious or new forms of comics will be invented and it will find its own niche, just the way comic books, comic strips and Flash media have.

    myke
  • There are really good online comics (especially on keenspot). I enjoy reading them. [keenspot.com]

    But the problem is, for every little strip, you have to wait for at least a day. When you but a book, you get hundreds of strips in one step.

    • But the problem is, for every little strip, you have to wait for at least a day. When you but a book, you get hundreds of strips in one step.

      Oh come on now, thats just silly. You only have to wait a day because you're seeing the comic as its being created. If you want to see all the material at once, wait for year and then check the archives out (if the site is still there).

      You can wait a day for each comic to come out in the newspaper as well, or you can wait a year or so and see if the whole collection gets bound into a book.

      This seems a bit like complaining that with comics in a book I can't give instant feedback to the artist.. Its a completely different medium.

    • That just means that online comics are equivalent to newspaper comics, even if some of them are trying to be like book comics. The Internet mindset has no place for a site that's only updated once a month, even if that update is very large.

  • The Polymer-City Chronicles [polymer-city.com] originally appeared on the web in late 94'. The author recently transitioned the strip from a "4-panel funny" format a few weeks ago and has begun a story arc which he expects will take him through the end of the year. It's well worth the read, and the author takes donations as well to help cover the cost of publishing the comic.

  • Problems (Score:3, Insightful)

    by zpengo ( 99887 ) on Thursday August 09, 2001 @12:32PM (#2152215) Homepage
    The biggest problem with online comics is the same one that affects eBooks and other online reading -- Monitors on which reading and viewing are actually comfortable have not yet filtered down to the masses. Joe Sixpack won't read lengthy comics online because it makes his head hurt after a while.

    Paper is still a beautiful medium.

    • Not to mention that a lot of joe sixpack runs on dial-up. Color comix are a biatch in 56k.
    • I agree with you. Paper will be a far superior read for quite some time, However One of the benefits of online comics is the interaction between artist and reader. There is an instant line of communication that is opened up with online comics, which enables 'Joe Sixpack' to become more of a part of the comic he/she is viewing.

      Whether McCloud is right or wrong, I think the debate is the most interesting thing.
      ... the comics debate exhibits an intensity unmatched in other arenas. McCloud quickly published a strong rebuttal to Groth's review, while Groth is considering another essay on the subject and just about every comics artist, online and offline, is more than ready to jump into the fray.

      I think this is the coolest thing. People get drawn into the debate. Stories are written, comments made, rebuttals and re-rebuttals, the end result is more people checking out the online comics mentioned in these stories. Thinking, debating, and discovering new comics is never a bad thing.. Unless they're bad comics. [popealien.com]

  • Comic books have been linked to the increased reading in the youth (and judging from some of the posts I've seen here and elsewhere they need exposure to correctly spelled words :-p). See this article here for some notes [ala.org] on the topic. By and large this also extends to online comics and their ilk since more young people are exposed to the Internet than books these days (or so it seems).

    This reading by choice (instead of the school forced reading) usually leads the young people of today and tomorrow onto the path of higher knowledge and better understanding. So, why not use the 'Net to extend this choice and create a better read society? Is not a well read society better able to make distinctions between FUD and fact? Between the technical and the trash?

    Just food for thought...

  • Too much coffee man (Score:2, Informative)

    by Ater ( 87170 )
    Too Much Coffee Man [tmcm.com] is good, well known small press comic which can be read online through scanned comic book pages. The site also has quite a few good cartoons as well.

    • I enjoyed TMCM a lot, especially the comic book series .. I also enjoyed Bob the Angry Flower [angryflower.com]. There are some very good comics online that I'm sure I would never have known about were it not for the Internet (comics are not very big in the country I live, most people here have a direct mental association between "comics" and "young children".)

  • Cerebus is absolutely amazing, I strongly recommend it. if you have too much time on your hands look for the monthlies with letters columns and editorialising. Sim can be, let's say... controversial at times, but he's never less than thought-provoking. The "Mind Games" episodes still blow my mind (man.)

    He announced when he started that he'd tell the whole story in 300 monthly episodes, and then that's it - no more Cerebus, and we already know the ending (Cerebus, the eponymous aadvark hero) dies. There's no point me babbling about it any longer, just get some monthlies (you need at least a good half-dozen to get a feel for the story enough for it to make some sort of sense, BTW) and, um, enjoy. Cerebus is really good, and Dave Sim is an Artist of the highest calibre. No question.


    • The thing to remember with regard to Cerebus is that its been written over the span of quite a few years.

      The style, consistency and mood of the writing varies considerably. The current stories are very different to the early works. The early stuff featured heavy fantasy parodies and then branched into biting political / religious satire.

      The current Dave Sim storylines may be applying the same satire to the whole men / women / relationships debate. However it's bored me to tears but can be of interest to those who like esoteric dissertations about men and women from the Dave Sim standpoint.

      The problem for me is that most of it is couched so highly and the supporting articles by Dave express views as grotesque as 1 week old road kill to me.

      The art certainly goes from strength to strength.

      I very much enjoyed the early to mid storylines. Thats something like the first 4 to 5 phone books from memory. The Jaka Story and Returning Home series are too drawn out and slow to interest me at all.

      Its hard to tell if Dave is just writing different perspectives or he actually believes what he is writing and expressing his views.

      For the casual reader, I would say get the first few phone books rather than the later.

      Dave and Gerhard are achieving an admirable goal nonetheless of selfpublishing a 300 issue opus.

      Just my few cents worth.
      Andrew.

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