Message from Kabul 776
When his message came, the Taliban had just fled, Northern Alliance soldiers had taken over his village, and everybody rushed to barbers to cut off their beards and to nearby holes and hiding spots to dig up their Walkmen, VCRs, TVs, CD players, and -- in Junis's case -- his ancient Commodore, one of four in the village. Cafes had popped up all over, with impromptu dances and parties everywhere.
Junis's e-mail -- routed to Kabul, then Islamabad, then London -- was a reminder that there are civil liberties, and then there are civil liberties. Computers had been banned under penalty of death by the Taliban (except for the Taliban themselves), along with music and TV. Junis, a computer geek obsessed with Linux, had first e-mailed me years ago while I was writing for Hotwired. He was genial and obsessed with American culture. He loved martial arts movies, anything to do with Star Wars, and rap. He was perhaps the Taliban's prime kind of target. (Now he's furiously trying to download movies he's missed and is mesmerized by open source and Slashdot.)
"I could still see the dust of the pick-up trucks carrying the Taliban out of my village," he wrote, "and some friends and I went and dug up the boards of a chicken coop where I had hid the computer. They might have beaten or killed us if they'd found it. It was forbidden, although they used computers all of the time." He claims American commandos are skulking around dressed as Northern Alliance tribesmen.
Junis describes life under the Taliban as brutal, terrifying and profoundly boring. What the people in his town -- especially the kids -- missed most was music, posters of Indian and American movie stars (he'd kept his own decaying poster of Madonna), and American TV. Junis missed the fast-changing Web and sees, he says, that he has fallen "forever behind," and that programming is more complex than ever. But at least "Baywatch," which everyone in his town acutely missed, is back, and there's already a lot of talk about "Survivor." Junis predicts "Temptation Island" will be the number one show in Afghanistan within a month.
If the world needed another demonstration of America's most powerful weapon -- not bombs or special forces but pop culture -- it got it again this week. People all over the planet fuss about whether this healthy and democratic or corrupting and dehumanizing, but people's love for American techno-toys, TV shows, music and movies is breathaking. Watching TV pictures of tribesman on horseback, it's easy to forget that technology reached deep into this culture as well. Junis says phone service around Kabul remains spotty, but reporters, U.N. workers and foreign soldiers are wiring up. He's already made his way to some sex sites, and wishes he had a printer.
There are many computers in Afghanistan, Junis said, many in clusters in cities like Kabul and Kandahar (news reports have frequently mentioned that Bin-Laden's organization used both e-mail and encrypted files to communicate). Computer geeks are already hooking up with one another all over the country; Junis isn't the only Afghan e-mailing these days. He says other coders and gamers hid their PC's as well. Meanwhile, he's especially eager to get his hands on the Apple iPod, and has been drooling over the Apple website site since he got back online. And some things, of course, never change. "I thought they were going to get Microsoft," he wrote. "I guess not."
A decade ago, when East Berlin teenagers stormed the Wall and crossed over into West Berlin, the first thing many of them did was rush to music stores to buy tapes and CD's they'd been secretly, illegally listening to for years.
The Taliban worked to create the antithesis of the American world, one without technology, computing, the Net, music, or any vestige of popular culture (not to mention women's rights, elections, a free press or any religion except fundamentalist Islam. Junis said people in his town risked their lives repeatedly, not to fight the Taliban, but to try and listen to CD's and watch videos smuggled in from Pakistan, watched in the dark under blankets and in cellars. It seems the outcome was inevitable.
Re:Hmmm. (Score:2, Insightful)
yeah I wondered about that too.
Maybe it's an Amiga, although my mental picture was a dusty C-64, tape drive and 300 bps modem.
Downloading movies on a Commodore? (Score:2, Insightful)
Still, interesting story.
Amiga perhaps? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hmm, sounds odd... (Score:3, Insightful)
I must say though, it makes me feel a little sick that the first thing the Afghans will see when they brush the soil from the TVs will be Jerry Springer, Temptation Island and MTV...
Just a reminder... (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, as nice as this sounds, the story is a little strange - I was under the impression there were almost no remaining international phone lines and that electricity was probably out in many of these areas, so I am a bit suspicious. But what do I know, maybe he has a generator and maybe the international phone lines are back up. Also the line about trying to download movies is definitely suspicious. At 9600 baud perhaps? OK, give them the benefit of the doubt, 28.8k. Doesn't sound too believable to me.
So I think this submission is either a bit of a hoax or a bit exaggerated, but it still is a nice sentiment even if the specifics are not true. And hopefully there is a guy somewhere in Afghanistan digging up his old Commodore.
Hrm... I'm skeptic (Score:4, Insightful)
As for digging up all the forbidden stuff as soon while they could still see the dust from the trucks of the talibans, that is just plain unbelievable. I doubt anyone who's just lived under such an oppressive regime would take that risk. What if they forgot something and drive back up to get it? Just because the trucks have driven away doesn't mean they're gone for good.
I would think that people living under oppressive regimes develop a sort of natural paranoia as a survival mechanism... my father who lived most of his life in communist Romania still has it twenty years after fleeing the country... I find it surprising that afghans would lose it in minutes...
Daniel
Re:Hmmm. (Score:3, Insightful)
There hasn't been enough time for the "little village" to be sent new computers, and how does he even know how to connect to the internet? Dial into his local IP? Junoweb?
Next question. What, in gods name, does this have to do with slashdot? News for nerds?
I hate to flame/troll whatever, but I read this comment [slashdot.org] last Katz article, and I'm starting to agree with it...
Forgive me (Score:2, Insightful)
The people of Afghanistan don't have televisions, they don't have music, and they don't have telephones... but they have e-mail access one day after the Northern Alliance "liberates" the city? And, coincidentally, he likes Open Source and Slashdot? What???
I'm sorry, but I just can't honestly believe this story to be true without some kind of third-party verification. And even then, I'd still be skeptical. It just doesn't sound legit to me...
No wonder America is viewed as corrupt (Score:4, Insightful)
So the top three TV shows mentioned in the story ("acutely missed" is the phrase connected to one of them) are Baywatch, Survivor, and Temptation Island?
Three shows based on the concept of manly men frolicking with scantily-clad women, and in the latter two, premised on the assumption that all humans are conniving backstabbers, and that relationships cannot last in the face of lust, respectively.
And we're trying to convince the Middle East that America is a just and moral nation? Ya ha ha, whatever.
External constraints (Score:3, Insightful)
Having lived in Africa, I've seen firsthand how quickly, frighteningly so, things can change during a coup d'etat. People whose constraints have been mostly external for some time, lose control very quickly when those constraints are lifted, but within a few days things settle down and they regain their internal control/balance.
holes in katz's story: (Score:5, Insightful)
1 - I know it's been said already, but it bears repeating...how does one download MOVIES on an "ancient commodore"? And furthermore, how does one play them?
2 - When you're living in Afghanistan, who do you call to get internet access?
3 - If the guy's using that "ancient commodore", what would prompt him to salivate over an IPod? First of all, it's doubtful that he would have ever acquired even a single MP3 file, let alone enough to fill an IPod. Oh, and Commodores didn't have firewire back in my day. Seems like the guy would be more likely to lust after a 2-year old Athlon system and a broadband connection rather than an IPod.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed this pile of absolute rubbish. Katz should be sent over to Kabul to investigate the situation himself.
Re:Hmmm. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep. I didn't want to be the one to say it, because I fear the mighty, mighty hand of Pro-Katz moderation, but the entire article smells like fiction.
"He just dug out his commodore, one of the only 4 in the village, and now he's pirating movies and is "mesmerized" by open source and slashdot."
I mean, you'd figure that anyone who can get a gnutella client working from a warzone has heard of linux before.
As a separate point against this entire letter... (Score:5, Insightful)
This was bullshit. Sorry, but it *can't* be legit.
Re:Hmm, sounds odd... (Score:2, Insightful)
It seems you've lost a lot of freedom recently - I haven't seen anyone march. Besides do you seriously believe a group of disorganized people with handguns an rifles is actually a match for the US army - one of the most modern and best trained armies in the world? Didn't work terribly well for the Taliban just now, did it?
Re:Downloading movies on a Commodore? (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:silly question for katz (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Well, half the population is less oppressed... (Score:1, Insightful)
In US there are more women than men, but they are still treated as a minority. And it was not the case in Afghanistan and Kabul did actually have a pretty advanced culture.
It was Russians (the new U.S. Ally) who are responsible for all this.
And for God.s sake dont listne to this Katz idiot
Re:Hmm, sounds odd... (Score:1, Insightful)
ipod (Score:1, Insightful)
Post the email, Jon (Score:5, Insightful)
[mod this up if you agree -- I'm at the cap anyway, so I'm not KW'ing]
what a fantasy world... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Amiga perhaps? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Just a reminder... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Uhhhhh... (Score:2, Insightful)
a forwarded e-mail from Junis
routed to Kabul, then Islamabad, then London
Ok, so the people who said "How did he get Katz's email address!" didn't read that it was forwarded to John from someone in London.
Junis, a computer geek obsessed with Linux, had first e-mailed me years ago while I was writing for Hotwired
And it seems to me that the folks suggesting this is just another typical internet chain-email hoax missed the part where Junis had written to Katz before! Come on people. Just because you don't personally know anyone in Kabul, Islamabad, or London doesn't mean that a well known journalist (and he is well known, and respected, in geek journalist circles) wouldn't have enough connections to get an interesting email from someone in a newsworthy place.
Could it all be made up as a device for another article overusing the phrases "geek", "open-source", and other buzz-words about the pervasiveness of the net and the radical societal shifts brought about by the rise of the geeks? Sure.
Could the government be hiding evidence of alien landings at Roswell and poisoning our water with mind-control flouride so we won't notice the UN's silent black helicoptors when they come to impose the oppressive new world order and take our guns away? Um...sure.
Too many people want to validate conspiracy theories instead of debating the ideas Katz brings up.
- StaticLimit
Easy on the 'Hoax!' shouts... (Score:4, Insightful)
If you got a random email from someone you've never heard of from a
Baz
Yeh, right. (Score:4, Insightful)
And as others mentioned, you can't download movies to a commodore, it just wont happen And he wouldn't have been able to do 'modern' programming on it for a long time. While I have heard reports of video stories and movie theaters opening back up, they're more likely to renting Indian and Pakistani films. Although I'm sure some people go for the American ones as well.
And comments about the iPod and Macs? Yeh, right. This sounds like more of a katzian fantasy to me. How would he even hear about the thing? And why would he want it rather then more reasonable mp3 players. After all, on a pure modem link he isn't going to be able to download movies.
And unless the northern alliance has managed to get DSL installed in the past few days, he isn't going to be downloading movies no matter what computer he has.
Katz if you have an journalistic credibility, post the actual message.
Re:holes in katz's story: (Score:2, Insightful)
Bluntly, 90 minutes of video was no laughing matter to try and get onto a computer five or six years ago, the general technology level of the best stuff in afghanistan citizens' hands today.
Rather than drooling over an iPod, I would expect they would be amazed that such large disks are sold at consumer prices, let alone for stick-it-in-your-pocket-and-go use. I wonder if any "ancient commodore" model can even address such a large disk.
No, I agree with the posters that think there's something very odd about this story. I think I'll take it with a grain of salt, like the rock of gibraltar.
I think it's a very pretty story to think "Oh, we freed the Afghanis, now the first thing they're doing is rushing to be just like us," but given the details it strikes me a lot more like propaganda than reality.
Re:No wonder America is viewed as corrupt (Score:3, Insightful)
Hey, that is the Muslim heaven - the central concept that's been used to sell martyrdom to the religion. If we can't offer them at least this much, and on this earth rather then some future realm, we can't even begin to compete. Wait, we are offerring them this!
It may be crass, but it's a lot more just and moral than getting them so frustrated in this world that they kill for the false promise of the next one. Yeah, I hate those shows too ... but we win if we convince them we're more fun, as well as swing a mean sword of justice. You never win at the "morality" game, since morality is always defined by retrograde local religions, there as here.
Re:Just a reminder... (Score:5, Insightful)
It noted that the average household income in a "Blue" area pushed $100k, while the average household income in a "Red" area was about $42k. So why weren't the reds resentful towards the blues?
Cost of living.
An average house in a Blue area goes for $400,000-1.5 million. The same house in a Red area costs $140k or so. A $ 42k household can easily afford a $140k house. A $100k household cannot easily afford even a $400k house. So who is really better off economically, the Reds or the Blues?
I looked this up in realtor.com and sure enough, he was right. And he had other examples. He couldn't spend $20 a plate dining out in ANY Red restaurant. This, of course, is par for the course around the Blue parts of town. He got a parking ticket in Redsville, and it cost him $3 instead of $25. And so on.
The phenomenon is going to be even more extreme in Afghanistan, a country where the average income is not even possible to determine with any accuracy. $1,000 a year is a fortune over there, but that wouldn't even pay my phone+DSL bill for the same period.
If you could make $1,000 a year in Afghanistan, you might well be better off than people making $100k in San Francisco, because that $100,000 just doesn't go very far.
The catch, though, is that living in a Blue area is a lot more enjoyable for more sophisticated people then red areas. When I wandered through South Florida, I saw plenty of places where the only radio was some preacher talking about having us saved. Sadly, if you're a True Blue, even the cheapest housing in the world probably won't make you happy in a Red zone. And that may apply to foreigners, too.
D
(*) Sadly, the article is not online.
Re:Easy on the 'Hoax!' shouts... (Score:4, Insightful)
1. He and three other villagers had Commodores in hiding (presumably because that's all they could acquire) for 5 years, yet he's a "computer geek obsessed with Linux". Where was he able to get a Linux box and play with it enough to become obsessed?
2. He's trying to download movies he's missed despite the fact that one minute of a movie is probably larger than the amount of RAM on a Commodore. In addition, is there an OS for any Commodore computer that can play MOV, AVI, MPEG or other movie files? How about VCD images? That would be news to me and a lot of other people here.
3. American TV has been banned for the reign of the Taliban, as have computers and Internet connections. Yet he can already predict (in the few days he's been browsing the web, presumably) that "Survivor" and "Temptation Island" will be big hits over there. How the hell did he even find out about these shows, let alone learn enough about them to claim that Afghanis will fall in love with them?
4. iPod was just released, yet he knows he already wants one. Hell, I haven't had the chance to go to the Apple store 5 miles from my house to see if I want one. You would think that the oppression he's been under would drive him (and others) to want a stable food supply and guaranteed shelter before wanting an MP3 player that doesn't interface with a Commodore computer.
5. "I thought they were going to get Microsoft"? Huh? Would this even have been big news in Afghanistan 5 years ago, when the Taliban took over? I wouldn't think so, but I could be wrong.
All of this just seems a little...odd. If I had just gotten out from under the boot of an oppressive government, I'd be concerned more about my immediate future than downloading entertainment from a network that had morphed into something completely different over the last 5 years.
And I don't at all mean this as a troll -- if someone with knowledge of the situation over there could explain how someone with so little access to the rest of the world could know so much about a foreign country, I'm sure we'd all be much abliged. According to the article, he (and possibly other people) are addicted to Slashdot -- Afghanis, if you're out there tell us the truth!
greg
Re:No wonder America is viewed as corrupt (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Just a reminder... (Score:2, Insightful)
For instance, the problem when going to the restaurant is that there was *no* better food to spend more money on. There wasn't a more expensive bottle of wine that you could get instead of the crap anyone else could get. The shops were empty of anything worth buying...
etc...
So cost of living is one thing, but availability is equally important.
Daniel
Re:Not to sound like an asshole, but... (Score:1, Insightful)
What you and I call "enslavement", Afghans call "respect". Anyway, you can't even stop me from "enslaving" my wife if I lived next door to you, as long as I don't break any laws. How can you expect to Americanize these people halfway across the globe? Moral right? What does that even mean on a global scale? You have no rights not given to you by your nation of residence. If you live in Afghanistan, and you are a woman, you live like an Afghan woman. If you live in America, you get to sit and watch.
"It's not like all of Afghanistan sat down and agreed, 'OK, women stay at home, don't get schooling, and have to wear burqas.'"
You mean that there was no election, right? So what? There has never been an election in Saudi Arabia either. Democracy is not for everyone. Just ask China. Notice we're not doing shit about how they treat their women. That's because we'd get our democratic asses handed to us if we tried. As soon as you become a Muslim you accept that women are to be treated differently. It's a vital part of their beliefs. Although not as extreme, all 1 billion of the world's Muslims behave this way. You want to go ask them to stop? Be my guest.
Don't use fiction to justify politics (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: Hmmm. (Score:2, Insightful)
Commodore is (was) a company, not a model. He didn't specify whether it was a C64, or Amiga 4000, either of which could be considered "ancient," however the Ami4k (Or even 2000) is quite capable of web browsing and playing movies.
Re:The question is, why? (Score:3, Insightful)
The huge downside, of course, is that only the Blues that are wildly successful have even what might be considered a middle-class lifestyle in Red-land. I think this may be why many Blues have leftist voting records; they don't think of themselves as rich, even though technically they have lots more money than the rest of the country. I'm personally conservative because I deeply resent the government's share of my income, in view of the exceptionally poor quality of most government services. Because we have a progressive tax structure, "rich" blues who still can't afford a half-decent house are penalized more than Reds who can.
The sophisticated stuff does cost lots of money, but you can avoid it if you want, so that's not the total answer.
As Daniel (the anonymous coward below this post) said, it's harder to buy stuff in the Red zone; you can't get ballet tickets, and you can't get fantastic ethnic foods. Those things balloon Blue budgets beyond all reason. In Redworld, you are more or less forced to live within your means.
This is, of course, exactly why Blues are highly unlikely to venture into Redworld and be happy; we need (or think we need) that urban cornucopia of stuff.
D
What happens now... (Score:2, Insightful)
This, however, should be the last straw. Please, pull John Katz off Slashdot. This story is ridiculous to the point of being scary. Katz has made an ass of himself - don't let him do the same thing to the site.
This post will probably be modded down so as to sanitize the discussion (Off topic or Flamebait is anything that constructively criticizes Slashdot, along with the rest of the troll content), and so will many other that are trying to make a valid point. But just remember one thing:
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Re:Just a reminder... (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Back in 1995-1996 I was downloading plenty of movies at 9600 or 14.4 baud. They were all in the old ViVo format (.VIV which was purchased by Real a couple years later). I think the first one I ever downloaded was Boobwatch. Each movie was only about 60-100MB in size and could easily be downloaded overnight. The bitrate was HORRIBLE but back the thrill of downloading an ENTIRE MOVIE made up for it.
2) My only 486 could never in its wildest dreams play DivX, which is MPEG-4 and requires a crapload of processing power...but even a lowly 486 can handle MPEG-1 or low bitrate RealMedia. So I can believe it's possible to watch movies on even an old Commodore PC clone.
3) The warez scene outside the G8 looks completely different. There is virtually no sympathy for copyright interests, especially US ones. You are more than likely to find major warez sites being run from state-owned resources (I myself was once offered access to a site that resolved to something under iif.hu and, judging from the amount of information it contained, had obviously been running for months). The scene is usually very close knit and tight. If you only have one or two ISPs then you get to know the staff pretty intimately, and from there its very easy to develop a "communal software resource".
I think a good way to look at computer users in these underdeveloped countries is to compare them to HAM radio users. They have a piece of hardware that connects them to a larger community of users, and sooner or later they'll run into someone in their own area, and from there they can exchange contact with others they have met and boom, a local user group is born.
- JoeShmoe
Cultural Narcotic (Score:4, Insightful)
People all over the planet fuss about whether this healthy and democratic or corrupting and dehumanizing,
American culture is all of those things.
The tidal wave of American culture is frightening and Borg like.
As long as it is seen this way, reactionary forces will gain support from the many who watch with despair as traditional culture and values developed over many centuries are replaced within a generation with what comes over satellite television from America.
It's too bad we're incapable of giving the Afghans freedom, democracy and human rights without simultaneously injecting a huge dose of consumerism laced with appeals to lust and violence.
Oh well, I suppose I can't fault the rest of the world for falling into the same traps that my fellow Americans have for decades. Don't like it? Don't watch it.
Re:Hmm, sounds odd... (Score:3, Insightful)
That's the point, with new technology they can fry all the fish. Traffic analysis, vacuum cleaner information gathering. Collect them all, and let the database sort them out.
Here's the kind of thing that could happen: Intellegence could find out that I've gotten copies made at BestCopy in Toronto (credit card) which was connected with Bin Laden, Bonk! My security risk karma gets a +1. So more automatic tests get run. Maybe I made a phone call to the next-door neighbour of a gun-runner, Bonk! I've mentioned gun-powder on Usenet, Bonk! I associate with the notorious Keith Henson, charged with threatening $cientology with weapons of mass-distruction, Bonk! And so it goes... Wider and wider searches that find possible and maybe connections.
The trouble with systems that collect everything is that there will be a temptation to automatically create profiles, and if it's not done right, some innocent person's security risk karma could max out -- and we're weakening the rules on innocent until proven guilty.
Sounds it sounds paranoid, but security agencies are paranoid by nature, and have to look at possibles and maybes.
If you want an excellent look at what a paranoid "knows everything" system would be like, the best I've read is Sam Hall by Poul Anderson. Hard to find short story, but well worth the search!
Luckly I paid cash at BestCopy so they'll never know
Re:Hmm, sounds odd... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's ridiculous that Katz should take this at face value, or that /. editors would pass this on without comment. The minor effort required to check even one of the outlandish "facts" in this piece would have been worth some effort.
This is really sad. I've been after Katz to look at his journalistic basics since the day he decided that ABC TV was "wrong" when they used a hidden camera, wielded by a paid undercover operative, to show Red Lion supermarkets selling rotten meat.
He claimed that it was "unethical" to get a job at Red Lion with a falsified job app, even if you already knew potentially lethal poison was being sold to people.
At the time he was celebrating a decision (later overturned) that would have hog-tied such investigative practices.
He doesn't understand the basic debt that a journalist owes his readers, and probably never will. One can only hopes that he takes this embarassment as a lesson.
Re:Not to sound like an asshole, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
It may not be any business of yours, but I'm making it my business. You can try to stop me, but you won't do so with words.
If your only issue is whether the people in these places want change, that's an easy question to answer: they do, go visit one of these countries sometime and ask.
If you were truly correct that the people in these societies liked the conditions they lived under, it would be a different matter. The fact is, though, most of them don't; however, brutal police states, corrupt governments, and lack of resources stops most of them from doing anything about it.
I've travelled and lived in Africa, and travelled in the Middle East, and what you often see is similar to what used to happen in the Soviet Union: people do the things people do anyway, if they can get away with it, but they do it underground and at serious risk to their lives and freedom. You may not care about this, but having lived in environments like this, I do.
And, despite your belief that "putting our nose in somebody else's business" got us into this, one can make a credible argument for the opposite being true: the U.S. has remained too hands-off in its foreign policy, only getting involved when it has a clear, direct strategic interest in a particular situation. The reasons for this foreign policy date back to World War II and Vietnam. However, this may not be in the the US's own interest. It means that from the point of view of people in other countries, US involvement is capricious and unpredictable, leading to resentment when the US does or doesn't get involved in a situation where others think it should or shouldn't.
A policy based more clearly on things like human rights interest could actually go a long way towards improving America's reputation in the rest of the world, and would not necessarily cost significantly more money, since America could certainly get international backing and cooperation for such a policy.
Morality is not globally valid (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not as simple as that. Do you have the right to e.g. punish someone that thinks he/she is doing the right thing, no matter what organisation, religion or culture that person belongs to?
You don't have the right to force someone to do (or don't do) something unless that other person "agrees" (has the same cultural, religious or ethnic backround, or lives in the same country and abides to the same laws).
I think things like for example the U.N. declaration of the human rights are good things, but some other things don't simply have global validity. You take them for granted, like double glased windows, central heating, universities without fees, and taking your shoes off when going indoors (I'm a Swede), but everyone else does not. You can't enforce things like that, not even the U.N. declaration of human rights, on anyone.
Enforcing a way of life upon someone is wrong. It is a violation of the integrity of the other person. It is denying everything that the other person is.
I'm not saying it's wrong to stop people hurting each other. I'm saying it's way wrong to call it your moral right to do so, because morality is not global.
And don't forget: The conflict in Aghanistan exists because of American foreign policy, because of economics, because of oil. Prove me wrong.
5000 people is a small prise to pay to ensure that ones interests in the middle east are not jeopardised. Don't come talking about moral, because moral is nothing.
Re:Morality is not globally valid (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm 28, and you're a troll, but I'm replying nontheless.
No I'm not flaming. I'm pointing out stuff that can and should be viewed in another perspective if one only cares to think for a while. What I was "flaming" about was the fact that the OP (you? I didn't really take note of who wrote it) assumed that he/she had some kind of moral right towards people with a totally different way of thinking.
I haven't had marshmallows for ages. Too much sugar. And I don't have supper, I have dinner.
Nope, I'm not saying that it's okay to kill 5000 people. I'm saying that the U. S. of A. is using the relatively small number of deaths in the WTC crash (and in terrorist attacks generally) as a means of expanding their economical influence in (and gain from) the middle eastern region. It's all economics. That's how countries work, and it doesn't have anything to do with moral.
There are other causes of death, some of which are directly sponsored by large industries (guns, tobacco, cars and oil), that are far more common than death by terrorist attack. The sad thing is that these other causes are all "normal" and "acceptable" due to them being part of the American way of life.
I'm also saying that the people who did the flying and they who did the planning of the WTC crash were "right". They thought they were right in just the same way as most Americans apparantly [we are told] thinks it's correct to bomb the living daylights out of Afghanistan and it's people. They would probably say, just as you are, that they had the "moral right" to do it.
Did you say I was flaming? :-) Are you assuming that I am religious in any way? I'm an anarchist [anarchistfaq.org], I believe in my right to express myself and to think whatever thoughts I want. I don't believe in being opressed by imaginary entities.
Sorry, but that is totally wrong.
People that do good doesn't need to know a thing about what's right and what's wrong for anyone. Only you can decide what's right for you.
It's a species, not a race. And I'm already part of it, thank you.
Re:That's a global moral statement... (Score:1, Insightful)
U.S. in Kabul (Score:2, Insightful)
It's likely that the U.S. forces have restored access to the area in a relatively short period of time - even the military boys like the Internet.