Fuel-Cell Backup Power Under Your Desk

An Anonymous Coward writes "Just up this evening on the Coleman Powermate web site: This is the first commercial fuel cell product that I am aware of. Who wants one under their Christmas tree?" I just wish the fuel wasn't quite so expensive.

Ridiculous...

[s390]

at $7,500 for the "Starter Pack", $10K for 24 hours. A generic (Honda, or something) gasoline generator is only a hundred bucks or so, and gasoline is only about $1.25/gal here in the US now. Who does Coleman think might buy this stuff? Osama bin f-ing Ladin? (Just the thing to keep your satellite phone lit in the caves on those long winter nights in Nowhere, Afghanistan?) It's amazing that they'd even advertise this product at the prices they're quoting. Until they meet reality, they'll never sell these things.

Posted Specs for Slashdot Effect

[NoWhere Man]

Fuel Cell Generator
Creates computer-safe electricity from hydrogen and oxygen

Uninteruptible Power Supply
Seemless power transition keeps systems running smoothly

Surge Protector and Power Conditioner
Protects sensitive electronics from high voltage jolts and sags

MODEL NO. PMXXXXX
POWER 1000 Watts (Batteries Charged)
OVERLOAD CAPACITY 1600 VA for 2 Seconds
VOLTS 120 VAC +/-3%
FREQUENCY 60 Hertz
WAVEFORM Perfect Sine-Wave
NOISE 65 dba @ 1 Meter
FUEL CELL Ballard Nexa
FUEL 3 Hydrogen Fuel Canisters
RUN TIME @ 50% LOAD 6 Hours
SURGE PROTECTION 360 Joules
BATTERIES Sealed Lead Acid
WEIGHT (LESS CANISTERS) 101 lbs.
DIMENSIONS 27.3" x 15.8" x 19"

WARRANTY 1 Year

Really cool, but the fuel cells are expensive for only 6 hours of back up time @ 50%. I wonder what the unit itself will set you back.

Very Nice

[pmc]

Very good piece of technology. Could be a bit better: being able to swap hydrogen canisters on the fly to give unlimited life; or being able to plumb in a hydrogen supply. This gives the possibility of using solar power during the day the power a computer and generate hydrogen, and to run of the hydrogen at night in a closed cycle. This would be better than lead acid batteries as these do not have a particularly high power density.

The cost of the hydrogen is outrageous - you can buy a J cylinder (big) of hydrogen for about $100.

Despite what the article says there is no way that this is the first commercial fuel cell - see this page [ecoworld.com] for a manufacturer near you - but it is a great indication that they will soon be mainstream.

Re:Hydrogen in my house?

[cat_jesus]

The hydrogen is actually stored in metal hydride pellets or powder. The metal hydride absorbs and desorbs the hydrogen and is non cumbustible. Gas and propane are more flammable than hydrogen and I have some propane in my basement already.

Now the trick here would be to have a system that can reinfuse the hydrogen into the pellets when power is available.

Cat

Re:Expensive?

[Eyeing_Bitter_Nouns]

>Filling a room with hydrogen is roughly >the equivalent of filling the room with oxygen - >it will combust (see references to the >Hindenburg).

Um, except for the fact that oxygen isn't actually flammable.

Re:Hydrogen in my house?

[pmc]

why would it be safe to store hydrogen in my house?

You would be amazed at how safe hydrogen is. When I was working in reseach we had an outside gas bottle room which consisted of rows of bottles plumbed in and gas lines going to the relevent lab. Some of these were hydrogen and it was decided to fit a hydrogen sensor to detect leaks and shut it down automatically when the hydrogen concentation reached about 50% of the lower explosive limit.

Anyway, this was installed and seemed to be working. We then decided to test it by gently cracking open a hydrogen bottle under the sensor (which was on the ceiling) and watching the output. Nothing. We opened it a bit more - still nothing. Finally we opened up full and only then did the sensor start to register (but nowhere near the set point).

What was happening was that because the room was well ventilated, the hydrogen dispersed so quickly that it only just got high enough to show on the detector. Any leak apart from a catastrophic failure would be safe.

Propane, on the other hand, is a floor hugger and does not disperse very well. You also beed a lower concentration of it to go bang. So if this leaks it tends to hang about the cylinder and you quickly have a bomb waiting to go off.

Re:Hydrogen in my house?

[miniver]

And why does the unit have "sealed lead acid batteries" in it?

The batteries are there to: (1) provide power for you (and the unit) while you're switching hydrogen canisters, and (2) depending upon the design, to even out the line voltage.

[Lecture Mode On]

There are two basic designs for UPSes: continuous and intermittent.

The UPSes that you buy for SOHO use are intermittent -- line voltage feeds a battery circuit (battery charger + batteries + inverter) and goes to a relay, which switches between the battery circuit and the normal line voltage. When line voltage goes off, the relay switches; when line voltage comes back, the relay switches back. While the relay is switching, there will be a short interruption in power, but most AC equipment can handle the (very short) interruption. This type of UPS will also have surge protectors built in to filter out high voltage and spikes, but can't do a lot for brownouts other than switch to batteries.

Continuous UPSes work differently -- the line voltage is used to charge the batteries, which run the inverter, which provides clean, uninterrupted power. No relays, no interruptions, no worry about power spikes or brownouts. Unfortunately, you're continuously charging and draining the batteries -- which significantly reduces the working life of the batteries. This type of UPS requires hot-swappable batteries, and is generally a lot more expensive to purchase and maintain (which explains the popularity of the intermittent UPSes).

[Lecture Mode Off]

From what I read on the site, the AirGen acts like an intermittent UPS -- when line voltage shuts off, the AirGen switches to generated power, and switches back when line voltage returns. The batteries are probably there just to provide the necessary power to start and maintain the generator, and to provide power while you're switch canisters. The AirGen *could* be a continuous UPS, with the fuel-cells supplementing line voltage for charging the batteries, but I doubt it -- everything they've posted on their site points towards the intermittent UPS design.

Re:what you have to realize

[Piquan]

Er... Check your high school economics textbook again.

High supply + low demand = surplus, which means lower prices. Assuming a constant supply, when demand goes up, prices increase. (Think about it for a minute, and it makes sense.)

To simplify to HS economics terms, we're looking at a low supply in this market. We don't know the specs of the H2 canisters, so they may be unique. Also, the users of this are probably a separate market than those who know where to get cheap H2, so it's effectively a low supply market, meaning high prices.

Of course, if demand increases, and the free market works right, then supply will increase to meet it (since H2 is not a scarce resource). That means competition, which means lower prices.

Re:Expensive?

[lightray]

Although the Hindenburg disaster is the posterchild for the flammability and hence perceived danger of Hydrogen, you might want to read ``Hydrogen Didn't Cause Hindenburg Fire'' [ucla.edu]

How fuel cells work

[fireboy1919]

Hydrogen, being the lightest element, doesn't go liquid until close to absolute zero at standard pressure. Even if you make the pressure dangerously high, the refrigeration will still keep it from being worth it to force it into the liquid state. An oxygen molecule is 16 times the size, but it still takes some work to make liquid oxygen, and the pressure would once again be dangerous.

How do they not take up too much space, as you said? Fuel cells are extremely efficient because rather than producing pneumatic energy from combustion which is then converted to electrical energy, they essentially make a battery out of them that fuses hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity. But they still don't usually store hydrogen or oxygen.

Fuel cells usually have a liquid forms - these are produced by dissolving or chemically combining hydrogen with less electropositive and negative elements (making an acid and a base), and then removing the hydrogen from this right before it is needed. Typically, the hydrogen is removed from an alcohol. Oxygen is just taken straight out of the air.

Here [howstuffworks.com] is a good summary of fuel cells, if you want to know more.

Re:Specs

[blkros]

You can put in this much solar capacity, or more, for this price. And guess what, no noise.

Fuel cells don't start instantly

[wowbagger]

It takes a fair bit of time for a fuel cell to start making power after you start the fuel feed. The batteries are there to a) allow the unit time to come up and b) to allow the unit to respond to surges like your monitor coming up.

In case of hydrogen leak...

[Max Hyre]

You ask

[W]hat if the (flammable / volatile) hydrogen is no longer safely contained in the 'low-pressure' containers?

If you really wanna know, their advice (from this fascinating page [colemanpowermate.com] is:

Problem: Hydrogen sensor has detected a fuel leak. The AirGen will cease operation immediately.

Action Required:

Move mode switch to MANUAL position, depress reset button, open doors and windows in the vicinity and evacuate the area. Call Customer Service at 1-800-445-1805 for further instructions.

Anyone remember the Bloom County strip in which the black genius kid asks his parents to ``Move away from the basement'' while he tests his nuclear experiment? When asked ``How far?'', he suggests New Jersey.

Re:Very Nice

[pmc]

I doubt that you could plumb hydrogen to it from high pressure tanks because of safety concerns.

You can definitely do this (some gas chromatographs are plumbed into a hydrogen supply for example).

I sure wouldn't want to work near a tank of hydrogen.

But you probably own a device that has a tank full of much more dangerous stuff - it's called a car.

other sources of fuel cell energy...

[john_uy]

i did some research years ago about fuel cells. the viable solution is to buy the fuel cell generator that provides 200kwatts from UTC Fuel Cells [utcfuelcells.com].

this is actually a cool device that allows source from methane or natural gas.

they also have numerous installations made.

although at this time, i am not sure if there are other companies that have created generators made from fuel cells.

Correct URL

[SnapperHead]

The URL posted above isn't correct. Try, http://www.colemanpowermate.com/fuelcell/ [colemanpowermate.com]

BTW, this site doesn't support Netscape. They don't know how to close off tables. Why is it that more then 40% of the websites I have gone to recently do that ?

It's a Ballard fuel cell

[Animats]

This is a Ballard Power Systems [ballard.com] fuel cell, sold by Coleman. Ballard has been selling fuel cells for a while, and they reportedly work, but they seem to have trouble getting the price down.

Ballard builds big systems. Their shipped product is a 250KW unit the size of a standard truck/ship container. They've been talking about a 1KW unit for a while, but their site still doesn't have photos of it.

Ballard was supposed to be the hot company in fuel cells, but they've been at Real Soon Now for a few years, and it's not clear what's wrong.

Re:Why just H2?

[Mike Greaves]

I'm guessing that this is an alkaline-electrolyte fuel cell - the cheapest and most mature type. This type is also more suitable both for indoor use and quick start-ups than most of the other types. I am *not* positive that this is the type they are using - it might be a low-temperature proton-exchange membrane variant.

However, alkaline electrolytes (probably potassium hydroxide) are poisoned very quickly by CO2 contamination, and stop working. So you have to feed it pure hydrogen - the chief downside to this fuel-cell type.

Other types, principally phosphoric acid, proton-exchange membrane, molten carbonate and solid oxide, can tolerate traces of CO2, to varying degrees, but may have other drawbacks. So then you can reform natural gas, propane or methanol, for instance, with steam, to produce CO2-contaminated hydrogen, and use that.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re: Explosion & environmental risks of Lead Ac

[silentbozo]

The risk can be minimized by using valve-regulated absorbant-mat or gelled-cell batteries. They're still lead-acid, but they contain the electrolyte in either a mat or gel matrix which eliminates the spill hazard of sulfuric acid. The valve regulated feature allows the gases produced during charging to recombine instead of escaping if properly charged, via a valve-relief system.

Keep in mind, any unit with a battery in it (including the Airgen), will vent hydrogen if overcharged - that's why you spend the money to get a good charger/regulator. A car alternator or el-cheapo car-battery charger are NOT good chargers (no intelligence), and either depend on a known load, or a timed charge. You want something that monitors amperage, temprature, and voltage, and knows the profile of the batteries you're trying to charge. Good chargers are not cheap, but well worth the cost in maintaining battery life, without having to resort to "boiling" your batteries from time to time to get full charge.

Also, you might either want ventilation, or an outside installation for the units, if you really fear hydrogen that much...

Regarding the environmental hazard, lead is the most recycled material (90-99%?), and batteries are not dumped, but chopped up and recycled into new lead-acid batteries. Any place that sells lead-acid batteries here in the US is required to accept them for recycling. Compare this to all the NiCad batteries (Cadmium is quite toxic) produced for consumer devices that people end up tossing directly into the garbage.

The only other, low-cost high-capacity mass-market batteries, other than lead-acid, would NiFe, and good luck finding a supplier for those in small amounts.

Re:Specs

[blkros]

http://www.nrel.gov/research/pv/cust-sited.html
http://www.solarserver.de/solarmagazin/artikelma er z2001-e.html
http://www.windsun.com/PV_Stuff/pv_pricing.htm
Solar panels cost about $5.00 per watt X 1000 watts =$5000.00 plus batteries, a transformer, and some wiring =approx $8-10,000. I was told by a proffessional solar installer (he does 10 or more intallations a year from Maine to the Bahamas) that it would cost about $18,000-$20,000 to do my whole house. After the install I don't have to replace fuel cells every 6 hours, at over $400 a shot, either, just a battery once in a while.

Re:Specs

[Belvario]

Actually, you have to run a propane generator once a month too. Generator cycling is necessary to keep the genset windings clear of moisture, not just to exercise the engine.

My other UPS runs on fusion

[Belvario]

I've been living in a solar house for over a year now, on a system I designed myself. Total system cost - just over $17,000 for the whole house, including labor. A few notes from someone on the alternative energy front lines...

• You don't measure power use in watts, silly people - you measure it in watt-*hours*. It's all about watt-hours. How much you generate, how much you use, how much you store - all watt-hours.
  
• So how much power do I get for $17,000? Not a whole lot... about 5 KwH a day (a 6th of what we used to suck down from the grid - read your power bill sometime, it's eye-opening). My array peaks at about 1000 watts x ~6 avg. insolation (sun) hours a day = 5KwH (since the output curve dips in the morning and afternoon. But with compact fluorescent lights everywhere and major appliances all overhauled, we get by comfortably. Battery backup is sized for 3 days with *zero* sun. The inverter (Trace 4024SW) can pump out 4kW if needed (10kW in short spikes) which more than covers anything we'd run all at once, including the well pump. I also have a 8KwH gasoline genset for backup, but I have used it only once so far. As time goes on I will probably add more array to the system - it doesn't always catch back up as fast as I would like after a cloudy spell. Luckily there is lots of ready expansion capacity in the system.
  
• My power is cleaner than your power. I'm not talking about the pollution, I'm talking about the waveform :) Trace inverters make machine-room, raised-floor-quality power, for my whole house. I telecommute full-time, and run all my systems off it (desktops with efficient LCD displays and 2 laptops), and they are all very happy.
  
• I got all my gear, including God's own batteries (Concorde Sun Xtender AGMs [concordebattery.com]) from Solar on Sale [solaronsale.com] - friendly service and outstanding prices.
  
• My arrays are ground-mounted, not roof-mounted (makes it easier to brush off snow). Total yard footprint - about 50 sq. ft.
  
• Really interested in this? Read Home Power Magazine [homepower.com], the ultimate geek journal on power hacking. The entire current issue is always available online for free download in .pdf format (way cool).
  

My neighbors sometimes tell me that the grid is down, but otherwise I'd never know.