Black Boxes to Track Driving Habits? 867
Another submitter sent in a related submission about the collision data recorders in many late-model cars - which serve a similar purpose as the black boxes described above, but generally only record the last five seconds before an accident.
geemon writes "With the recent stories of rental car companies using GPS to track how and where their patrons are using their vehicles, this information about autos from 1996 and newer having an airplane-like accident "black box" capability was a complete surprise. Tucked under the drivers seat of most GM vehicles, the "black box" can store a variety of info such as vehicle and engine speed, braking, and seat belt usage. Info from an accident reconstruction service that uses this data can be found here. Called "event data recorders", these devices were, "...Originally designed to improve air bag performance based on the severity of the collision, the event data recorder can tell traffic accident investigators about the car's speed; engine RPMs; how far the accelerator pedal was pressed; if the brakes were applied; whether the drivers seatbelt was buckled and what warning lights were on - all from five seconds before impact..." It seems that GM and perhaps Ford have been using this for some time. Here is one company that makes the Windows based retrieval hardware/software combo for $2500. Imagine the uses of this data that law enforcement, your insurance company, and lawyers may have after your next little mishap."
Paranoia (Score:4, Insightful)
Can we stop with the black-helicopters-are-watching-me-through-the-tel
The progression is clear for any tracking tech (Score:5, Insightful)
Finally, it's mandatory.
This is the time to oppose this stuff and set limits if there will ever be any at all.
It is their vehicle... (Score:5, Insightful)
People who disagree can use public transportation. Hopefully, mass transit will get a much needed boost because of people who are unwilling to be tracked.
Re:Big Brother gets a step closer (Score:2, Insightful)
This has NOTHING to do with the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, nor does it have anything to do with the Articles of Confederation or Decleration of Independance.
You might be disillustioned, but try to keep this in context.
It's about technology working for the insurance companies and the police, not about civil rights.
hmm.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Not such a great idea (Score:3, Insightful)
In the real world, nobody ever drives the speed limit under good driving conditions. Realistic freeway speeds are at least 80 in nondeveloped areas, and cars going under that speed are actually at increased risk.
Besides, nothing like this will ever stop the experimentation kids do in cars. In my younger days, I did donuts in the empty church parking lot, caught air on the Spooner St. bridge, drove my car over a lawn or two, etc. No excessive speed involved (you'd jump Spooner doing 35).
IMO, your best bet is to buy your kid a fairly modern, safe car without too much extra juice (try a Toyota with side-curtain airbags with traction control and ABS, or a Volvo if it's in your means) -- buying kids old cars is actually more dangerous due to the lack of modern safety gear. Those parents buying their kids Z3's... well, that's just natural selection at work.
Base lesson: No good ever came of spying on your kids and making it clear you don't have any trust for them.
This would be excellent for insurance co's to .... (Score:3, Insightful)
More importantly, this might save someone's life!
I'm sure people living in states like New York or New Jersey (where I hear the cost of car insurance is very high) would not mind anything that lowers their rates. So should I pay thousands of dollars on insurance, or let my insurance company install a box that gets my rates reduced by a few hundred, maybe even a thousand? You make the call...
Re:Not such a great idea (Score:5, Insightful)
this is a good thing (Score:3, Insightful)
As a parent, I will put this in the car my children will drive when they are lod enough. Not as a way to punish them, but as a way to instill better driving habits.
monitoring your childrem, and the government monitoring, or forcing some to monitor, individuals are two wildly different things.
I was fortunate, my father sent me to a top notch driving school where I learned how to control a vehical in a great many situations. those class's saved my life more often the knowing what the punishment is for drunk driving.
There are these things called odometers... (Score:3, Insightful)
Both good and bad (Score:4, Insightful)
I used to commute on CA-17, which connects Silicon Valley with Santa Cruz. It's always full of people who think nothing of driving 80 mph on a windy mountain road, who think anybody who observes the speed limit is doing it just to piss them off, and who basically exhibit behavior that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere except on the highway.
And that's what it's all about, isn't it? Communication. One reason people love their cars is that it's the one place they don't have to listen to anybody. Unfortunately, lots of people abuse this solitude. If you behaved, say, in a line at McDonalds the same way people behave on Highway 17, people would communicate a lot of anger to you. (That kind of communication while driving is known as "road rage".) Attempts have been made to communicate to the over-assertive driver. With results even -- whenever the CHP ups its presence on 17 the death rate goes way down. But the concept communicated is not "speed kills" but rather "be a good little boy when daddy's watching."
If some people end up getting supervised because they think good behavior is just a game, they've only themselves to blame.
How much does this really help? (Score:2, Insightful)
For example, even with this device installed I could be driving down the street (at the speed limit) talking on my cell phone, smoking a cigarette, drinking a beer through a straw, having sex with my girlfriend and tailgating the car in front of me
Re:hmm.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I know there are US operatives at home and abroad covertly seeking out terrorists. Are they not spying? And no, teens do not need to be spied on - they need to be instilled with a good set of values at an early age, then be allowed to make their own mistakes. Guided and watched, yes - much like how you taught them to ride their two-wheeler, but spied on, no. If you only spy on them, they'll never lose their training wheels - I hope you realize that, if you're a parent.
This is a good thing (Score:4, Insightful)
Fortunately, a person who saw this happen hanged around until the police came and was able to refute the other driver's fabrication.
If the car had a black box, the police officer could have quickly determined that my friend's mother's car was stationary up till the moment of impact regardless of whether a nice person did or did not loiter around at the crash scene.
Granted, people might complain about details such as the car's location and a log of speeds. These issues can be solved by convincing law makers to dictate a standard set of statistics said auto boxes would record.
interesting (Score:5, Insightful)
When I have kids (God permitting), I may consider putting the webcam on the baby's crib. It would be fun, other people would like it, it would be a good way to keep an eye on the baby when nobody is with him/her for whatever reason, and it would hurt nobody.
Once that kid starts moving around, and growing up into a person, I would *NEVER* subject my children to that kind of oversight. I can imagine it would be VERY detrimental to their social life. Children need to live lives seperate from their parents. God knows there are things I've done (and still do) that my parents don't need to know. I'm sure my kids will do the same, and I don't want know about it (as long as they aren't hurting themselves or others).
You *NEED* some privacy in your life. I will NEVER vote for somebody who supports making something like this mandatory (and I hope my stubborn side will continue to keep this true, even as I grow old and raise kids of my own).
Bryan
Re:Paranoia (Score:1, Insightful)
I see no problem with the argument.
Useful for accidents, not that great otherwise (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not useful to know everything the driver normally does without having the road conditions in extensive detail. There's no way the box is going to be able to tell what a safe speed is, whether someone is driving erraticly in response to other cars and pedestrians. Someone driving slowly could be driving in fog, following a bicycle, in traffic, reading signs and ignoring the road, or just stoned.
This data is only really useful in conjunction with scene evidence and other witnesses (except that you could easily tell where the kid took the car and when). You can't really use it to measure driving skill.
Re:This would be excellent for insurance co's to . (Score:1, Insightful)
As mentioned above, the only thing you would see is the insurance rate for "bad" drivers would go up...but the insurance company would immediately start touting "Lower rates for safe drivers!" at every opportunity.
In retrospect, I wish you were right...it would be nice if they lowered rates for, well, anybody. But why should they? You're happily (as far as they can tell) paying your current rate.
Re:It is there already! (Score:5, Insightful)
Cars already have black boxes (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not 100% sure about why these weren't put into widespread use, but I believe the necessary laws have not been passed, so law enforcement is unable to use the data. Not all vehicles have been equipped.
Re:What's the problem? (Score:2, Insightful)
No, that's pretty normal. I don't know too many people who disassemble each and every product they purchase (including grinding down each and every IC so they can visually inspect each circuit to double check it only does wha the spec sheet says it does). We all make assumptions about things we buy.
They will get it at break tag inspections, oil changes or what not. Insurance companies will pay for the data untill it's mandatory, then they will just put in a cell phone and make you pay for that too. More power to you if you never have to take your car to someone else's garage.
I have a very hard time believing that unauthorized collection of the boxes data would be legal (and the Harris Technical website seems to back this up, re: Brady vs Maryland) and an equally hard time believing that it would be found constitutional if a law was passed making it legal.
I'm hoping my next job is in bike riding distance, like my last one. Cars just suck more and more. Riding my bike to my office at the local university was so much more relaxing than my current dodge of road kill and pickup trucks.
Wow, something we agree on.
Re:Bullshit. (Score:2, Insightful)
You have the unalienable right to ask for a driver's license. The state has the unalienable right to deny you one if, for example, you fail the test.
Re:Bullshit. (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, you have a right to drive. However, if you'd like to drive on public streets and highways with the rest of us, that is very much a priveledge. A privledge earned through drivers training and testing. You play by the rules so that you don't get the rest of us killed. If you don't and your license is pulled, you need to look into alternative forms of transportation. Bike, walk, whatever. Not my problem. But you have no inalienable _right_ to drive. You have a right not to be discriminated against in the assignment of this privledge, but of you're pulling DUIs or too many speeding tickets, or can't see sufficiently well to pass the driving test - No license for you.
Re:hmm.... (Score:2, Insightful)
yes... but the problem is the people who think
"the other people are moron, but I just
drive a little fast sometimes."
something like this black box really would put them
in their place and help remind them how they behave.
Re:...or charge different rates based on habits (Score:2, Insightful)
For one, the "base price" for no usage at all will be the same as the amount you pay now. Actually using it will cost even more. Never underestimate the greed of the bandits of Hartford.
Teen Driving habit facts (Score:5, Insightful)
Their parents. If a child grows up watching daddy tailgate that little Kia in his big-bad yukon while trash talking, "Man this asshole is doing the speed-limit.. I wish I could just push him out of the way" or watches mommie floor it up to the barrels and arrow-board in a construction area and FORCES her way in to the merged traffic at the last second..
This is how these teens that drive like idiots and morons get their driving habits... from the idiots and morons that had and raised them.
And being a regular commuter..The numbers of drivers that drive like idiots and morons is increasing..
I dont think the parents should be black-boxing the kids... it should be the state, and pull their drivers license until 25 if the box reports idiot driving.... But then I also believe that the driving test/license requirements should be quadrupled, as with giving 50% of the traffic fines to the officer as an incentive to enforce traffic laws.
too many people are content with driving like morons, and they are breeding more morons for the roads.
Re:not quite (Score:4, Insightful)
Any parent who gets one of these really needs to reevaluate their relationship with their kid, and their parenting techniques.
This doesnt teach them driving (Score:3, Insightful)
This little device doesnt teach them proper driving. I mean since when has coming to a complete stop at every stop sign made someone a better driver? Never, its the concious, logical thought that goes into driving. A good driver does not neccisarily follow the rules. "Obey the law but dont let it rule you." What does it matter if I come to a complete stop at every stop sign if no one is there? They need to learn how to use their brain! Not become little socially controlled automatons who learn to obey the "black box" without thinking. This program isnt making good drivers, its making nice little tax paying, go exactly the speed limit, good citizen sheep that vote the way N'Sync tells them to.
When i was young, my mother never went through my drawers looking for pot, spying on my habits to protect me from myself. She would never resort to installing filters on our computer to make sure i wasnt looking at how to make bombs. Invading your childs privacy and forcing them to act like there is a camera over their shoulder is not the way to make sure they dont hurt themselves. What people do in front of a camera is different from what they do in private. Fear of consequences is not a substitute for morals. This "black box" is just another way for parents to invade their childrens privacy.
This is just another step towards Hilary Clintons "It takes a Village" perfect world for raising children.
{/rant}
Re:Teen Driving habit facts (Score:2, Insightful)
*But officer, I wasn't speeding over 10 mph. 3mph speeding doesn't count. (a minimum fine for speeding is like $50 [estimating]) so $25 for each person just barely speeding, sounds VERY lucrative. Don't tell me you've never gone a mile or two over the limit down the hill or something like that.
*Did you know that non-working light is equal to a stop sign, so running one is reckless driving due to running a stop sign. Hmm.. don't cops have access to the light controls? Think about this one yourself.
*Do you always turn on your signals 100 yds for 35mph or faster and 50 yds for under that limit? What about keeping the exact distance in front of you? (2 sec. on normal conditions and then whatever the cop feels like for rain/snow/dark/etc. There are no specific rules, but cop can at discretion call any speed/distance "too dangerous for current conditions )
* Do you have ANYTHING hanging on your mirror? (like your parking pass, air freshener, etc.) ALL of them are illegal, as parking passes should only be displayed when parked.
* Have you ever had to pass on the right a slow driver in the left lane of you? That's illegal in many states, and driving 45 mph in 55/60/65 mph is completely legal.
I can keep going with examples of laws that are commonly broken due to limited knowledge and very little repricussions. (parking passes almost don't block visibility, but are still illegal) I would rather not have the cop benefit from giving a specific ticket because not only could they start charging for very small offenses, but they could add offenses togeter for bigger fine. (You have been speeding by 5 mph, have a parking ticket hanging off the mirror and failed to signal for 100 yds: That'd be $300)
Yes, parents/teens should be educated, but don't give cops incentive for giving tickets. They should do it because of safety/traffic reasons, not because they'd be making bigger profit with more tickets. Otherwise it'd be more cost-effective for them to just go after rich middle-class folks that break small rules than fining that bastard that ran 2 lights, sped by 30 mph but drives 1980 Chevy with almost no paint on it.
Re:or if used properly (Score:2, Insightful)
Have you ever driven on snow and/or ice? If somebody can't do it, they shouldn't be driving here. Ideally, everybody would take their test in the winter, or on some simulated winter conditions.
Re:not quite (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Teen Driving habit facts (Score:2, Insightful)
Not necessarily; people learn a lot of their driving from those around them. I moved to Cleveland several years ago (City motto: "The red lights aren't decorative?") and the vast majority of drivers here have trouble with the concept of stopping BEFORE the intersection, and stopping when the light is red, unless it's been red for 5-10 seconds.
I've seen other people who've moved here start out driving like normal people, but many quickly start driving like everone else. People go with the majority and the flow of traffic more often than they follow laws or their own ideas about driving.
Re:It is their vehicle... (Score:3, Insightful)
Neither do I (to a certain degree), but I think a rider needs to be tacked onto that.
If you are going to charge a large penalty (over, say, $50) you should verbally and visually (as in a BIG RED SIGN IN ALL CAPS) warn the renter of just how much trouble they could be in.
I know you should read all of a contract, but in reality, we don't have time to read all of them, and we just assume that if a company has such an egregious policy that they'd let us know the "nice" way. (I mean, do you really want to be sued over your policy? Its just that much more airtight when you let the person know verbally as well as in the contract).