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More on the KDE League 108

Posted by michael
from the pushing-the-needle-too-far dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Timothy Butler published a nice clean-up on the misinformations that were published by dep on Linux and Main. Most of what that has been alleged by Linux and Main turns out to be wrong. Especially, the KDE League has no obligation to disclose financial information. On dot.kde.org, Mathias Kalle Dallheimer, KDE e.V. president, explains that the KDE e.V would authorize the KDE League to disclose its books to the KDE e.V members. However, the KDE e.V is not the only member of the KDE League. Other members would have to approve this."
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More on the KDE League

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  • and what is there position on the issue?
  • good job (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Karma Sucks (127136) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:04PM (#4424568)
    I am glad that these misinformations are not allowed to persist. It's tragic when someone else sets out on a PR war crusade against an Open Source project with the only goal of causing damage and mistrust.

    Thank you Tim, Kalle and Slashdot for your efforts to combat this.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:07PM (#4424593)


    Corruption in multi-billion dollar corporations. CEO's going down faster than a hooker on ephedrine.

    Now, here comes the OPEN SOURCE book keeping. Does this mean we'll get to see the live, play-by-play webcasted extortion, with the source code to match?

    god, getting people busted pwns.
  • by Sheetrock (152993) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:13PM (#4424658) Homepage Journal
    This isn't the first time I've seen a segment of the Open Source/Free Software community turn on itself. What is it that causes these kinds of conflicts and mistrust? Are inflated egos allowed to remain because of their coding ability where in the business world they would have been let go? Is it because people invest themselves more personally than if they were working for money? Or is it just a situation where muckrakers can thrive because everything is done openly?

    I worry that this sort of thing feeds into the 'crackpot' image many in business seem to have of the community...

    • politicians (Score:2, Insightful)

      by oliverthered (187439)
      Ever watched politicians, most of them behave in the same way. Maybe it's because the OOS 'movement' is also a political movement?
      • Interpersonal politics are just large-scale politics in microcosm. From monkeys jockeying for top billing with the lady-monkeys, to kids beating on each other in a schoolyard to gain social standing, to the Slashdot trolls souring the broth for the rest of the users, to the fortunate son of an oilman from Texas gearing up to throw 500000 American boys to go beat up a fortunate son of an oilman in Baghdad and his crew.... cogitation breeds deception.

        It's not that OSS is a 'movement'. It's that it's run by humans, and humans are mammals. Mammals really suck sometimes.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      And then it could be that the League has been inactive (well at least not smart enough to post a press release about its or KDE's activities) since Novemeber 2000. Seems like a good reason to be worried especially when websites are going down and paper work is getting messed up. Though the stuff about needing to see the books is just bunk.
    • by Scarblac (122480) <slashdot@gerlich.nl> on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:25PM (#4424751) Homepage

      What is it that causes these kinds of conflicts and mistrust?

      People. Things like this happen now and then absolutely everywhere. It seems that's how we work.

    • by subgeek (263292) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:26PM (#4424765) Homepage Journal
      me too!!!!

      sites like linux and main should not fall into the trap all the mainstream media has of sensationalizing everything. news about linux should be informative and well-researched, not the extension of someone's agenda. but that is not the case. people in oss/fs have very strong opinions, and bending the truth is ok as you have any kind of excuse to promote what you like and trash what you do not like. that's why people get tired of the community. or the crackpot image you mention.

      if we would be well informed, quit pointing fingers, and just stick together, open sourcerors would have a better reputation outside the community. let's promote what we love, but maintain some tolerance. if people think you hate them and their ideas, chances are pretty slim they'll ever listen to you. if you present your self as knowledgeable yet understanding, they just might think you have something to say that is worth listening to.
      • "Why can't we all just get along?"

        -b
        • it's not about sounding like a hippie. (whether it's an accurate description or not) it's just about focusing on stuff that matters instead of putting down things outside your pet projects/aps. it's about making an attempt to sound informed rather than elitist. but if you want to pull people to your side, you'll need to learn to get along with them.

          i was talking about things broader than just kde debates. if you want to support oss/fs, support what you like instead of creating fud about 'rival' projects. educate people instead of telling them how stupid they are for not knowing the 'truth.' it's not that hard. and it
      • news about linux should be informative and well-researched... and yet you read Slashdot? How well-researched do you think a site is that can't even be bothered to check if it's already ran the story?
      • by spruce (454842)
        You don't know how right you are.

        For the sake of this reply I'm forced to confess that I'm a Windows developer/user. I started off on Microsoft, got a job using micorsoft, and frankly I've never had a need to use anything else. That doesn't mean I'm not open to other solutions and ideas, and in fact since I started reading Slashdot I've learned a thing or three.

        It was slow going at first. When I first got here, I would get infuriated by the zealots who would bash to hell anything related to MS. Imagine that all your knowledge is in a particular subject and you read post after post on how stupid/horrible that is and how you're a sheep etc. Of course you're going to be defensive, and certainly not receptive.

        That was exactly what happened to me. I would attack Linux whenever I could, be it in conversation with friends, or with clients. My facts weren't usually backed up by much more than the fud I was angry about, but it was the party line of the opposing view.

        After a while I simply got tired of the anger, and I take a lot of what I read with a grain of salt. But I am still able to appreciate other reasonable, politely spoken opinions. While I can understand most arguments, I certainly won't be preached to. The Open Source community could learn a lot from your tolerance based point of view. Well, it's not just Open Source, everbody could use a little tolerance, Mac heads & Windows zealots too.
        • i have to be tolerant because i am one of those dual booting heretics. but i have my share of strong anti-microsoft sentiments. i just don't direct it at users. and a lot of the things that i want to do still work better in windows than on another OS. and i use windows at work. if i told people at work that they were idiots every time they asked for computer help, it wouldn't do a whole lot for my career.
    • by TilJ (7607) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:29PM (#4424794) Homepage
      The book the cluetrain manifesto has something to say about this. Here's my take on it:

      Traditionally, markets use the language of conflict. Battles over mindshare, control of a critical market segment, etc. These sorts of internal conflicts still occurred, but they were not makde public.

      The open source community makes it's internal conversation public. To me, this is a strength, not a weakness.

      Doc Searls explaisn this much better than I do, for those that are interested :-)
    • by novas007 (411673) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:30PM (#4424806) Homepage
      > What is it that causes these kinds of conflicts and mistrust?

      Human nature. Contrary to popular belief, os/fs coders are human. Though some seem to have magical time-stretching powers that allow them to do more than a human should be able to in one day.

      There are inflated egos among os/fs coders, because, once again, they are human. There are many inflated egos that don't belong to coders as well.

      The reason this seems to crop up connected os/fs projects is if/when this happens at a company, _it doesn't get out_. The company doesn't want to lose image points, so conflicts stay internal. On the other hand, how do you keep an os/fs conflict internal? Have the developers talk mind to mind? They talk on public lists most of the time.

      And sure, we're crackpots. Some of us prefer to fix something we don't like in software we use. Fixing something you didn't write? Horrors! Putting your heart and time into a project that doesn't make you any money! CRACKPOTS! She's a witch! BURN HER!
    • by Nailer (69468)
      This isn't the first time I've seen a segment of the Open Source/Free Software community turn on itself. What is it that causes these kinds of conflicts and mistrust? Are inflated egos allowed to remain because of their coding ability where in the business world they would have been let go?

      DEP doesn't work on KDE, and I think that it would be reasonable to expect him to be paid fopr his Linux and Main work. What causes these kinds of attacks? Ego, yes - Dennis E Powell's was burnt because many KDE contributors disagreed with aspects of Israel's involvement in the middle east, and then took offence to his article in Linux and Main on April 7 labelling them antisemites for their views.
    • by Arandir (19206)
      I'm positive I will get royally flamed for this, but oh well...

      This isn't the first time I've seen a segment of the Open Source/Free Software community turn on itself.

      The slash in your quote is 90% of the answer. There are two similar-but-not-identical philosophies in this "movement". As with any other two similar-but-not-identical philosophies, tension is constant and conflict assured. If you look down the list of the Holy Wars that have occured during the Age of Software, you'll find that they all split down the same line. There is considerable fuzz and overlap at the borders, and most outsiders can't even tell the difference.

      Due to circumstances, history and personalities, KDE is in the Open Source camp, while GNOME is in the Free Software camp. Many in the Free Software camp still don't believe that KDE is really Free Software (read this article at -1 threshold and you'll see). They want KDE to fail. Or if not fail, at least be a distant second to any other desktop. Some people just can't stand the fact that KDE is currently the most popular Unix desktop.

      Some people see the existance of KDE as a personal attack on their philosophy. They feel they must attack back, or at least cheer on anyone else doing so.
  • tells you what it is they do or plan to do ? These are not the devolpers I believe, though I am confused enough now to not really know...anyone with a better grasp explain this to me...PLEASE...
  • by Anonymous Coward
    What a bunch of crap, just because someone posts an article that was actually researched OFB is a "KDE mouthpiece". Point out one part of his article that is factually incorrect. Can't do it, can you?

    How come you totally neglect the fact that not one thing in DEP's articles was true, including comments he attributed to the Delaware Secretary of State's office that they deny ever making, anyone in their office making, and are factually incorrect. Someone refutes a mostly imaginary article and you say they are a "KDE mouthpiece".
    • Number one, the IRS database is not exhaustive. You're not required to file for a letter recognizing your 501(c)3 status from the IRS for 15 months from the creation of your organization, or 27 with the automtic extention. You're additionally not required to file if your gross annual receipts are less than $5k.

      Additionally, there are many types of non-profit organizations of which 501(c)3's are only a small subjection - non-profit organizations that are *ALSO* CHARITIBLE organizations. All IRS-recognized non-profits are tax-exempt, but only CHARITIBLE ones (501(c)3's and a very few others) can accept TAX-DEDUCTIBLE contributions.

      Basically, the REAL question here is this:

      Does the KDE League accept tax-deductible contributions? If yes, then they're likely required to have accounting information publically available (but not much - just their Form 990's), if not, then they're not.

      Ultimately, it is up to the members of an organization to keep track of the organization's accounting (the rights of the members to access the accounting information is a matter of state law) and the people making contributions to make sure their contribution will be spent effectively when they make the contribution.

      Not a member and not giving money and the organization is not a public charitible organization (which it does not appear the KDE league is?) Then its none of your business what they do with their money.

      There seems to be a misconception that non-profit = public or that non-profit = charitible. Neither of those is true.
  • by mosfet++ (43965) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:34PM (#4424846)
    What a bunch of crap, just because someone posts an article that was actually researched OFB is a "KDE mouthpiece". Point out one part of his article that is factually incorrect. Can't do it, can you?

    How come you totally neglect the fact that not one thing in DEP's articles was true, including comments he attributed to the Delaware Secretary of State's office that they deny ever making, anyone in their office making, and are factually incorrect. Someone refutes a mostly imaginary FUD article and you say they are a "KDE mouthpiece". No one talks about making up quotes and facts, but still troll KDE when they did absolutely nothing wrong.

    How about the fact that the Gnome foundation hasn't released their financials yet? You'd think you'd at least give the KDE League the same amount of time they get considering they started later, but no :P You want it, *now*, even though you have no right to anything at all.

    This whole story is crap, and proved to be lies.
    • Thanks Mosfet, you are certainly right. If being a KDE mouthpiece means reporting "just the facts" then I plead guilty. Otherwise, Open for Business is not a KDE mouthpiece, and I would retract my findings the moment anyone proves them wrong.

      Its unfortunate that people have this double standard where they want one desktop covered with facts based reporting, but if you do a fact based report on the other desktop - wham - your a mouthpiece for the project. I can guarantee that most of those who have attacked my credibility would be quite unhappy if I followed their advice - only on the GNOME League instead. Of course I wouldn't do that either, I see no need to minipulate the facts on either side.

      -Tim
  • by AIXadmin (10544) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:41PM (#4424910) Homepage
    1. There is no IRS not-for-profit database. There is guidestar and http://wwww.guidestar.org/ does not always have the most up to date information. Often there filings are 1 or two years behind or might not exist at all.

    2. If the KDE league is not a 501(c)3 then what the heck is the KDE league?

    I believe the KDE leagues corporate filings should be available from the State of Deleware.
    • by brokeninside (34168) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @01:05PM (#4425139)
      There is no IRS not-for-profit database.

      The database the OFB article refered to is the IRS Search for Charities [irs.gov] web page.

      If the KDE league is not a 501(c)3 then what the heck is the KDE league?
      A tax exempt 501(c) organization is a an organization that meets certain requirements (one of which is being a not-for-profit organization) and has applied to and received tax exempt status from the IRS. Not-for-profits can also file for tax exempt status under 501(a) and 501(d). The IRS currently requires organizations that are tax exempt (except for private foundations) to provide public disclosure of certain tax forms such as the corporate 1023 or 1024. See FAQs regarding the Exempt Organization Public Disclosure Requirements [irs.gov] for more information.

      As the KDE league is not a 501(c) organization, it is one of the many other types of not-for-profit organizations recognized by the state of Delaware. See the The Nonprofit FAQ [nonprofits.org] for more information about what type of not-for-profit organizations exist.

      • Not quite (Score:1, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        There are all kinds of tax exempt entities. Section 527 political nonprofits, section 107 and others. None applies here, and most (if you read the disclosure laws closely) are required to disclose some financial information publically.

        501(d)s I believe are churches, which I think doesn't apply here. 501(a) organizations are related for foreign entities, and may be subject to disclosure.

        In any case, the fact that the KDE league claims to the state of delaware that it is a 501(c)3 is interesting, given the fact that it says it is not such an organization.

        There is such as thing as a "not-for-profit" organization where the IRS is concerned, and that's all that matters. States do not determine whether a group is tax exempt or not; the IRS does.

        It is a probably a for-profit company that decides not to make a profit. That's what the KDE league appears to be. What you're missing here is that the league *claims* to be a 501(c) to the state of Delaware.

        The question is why would it not want to be a 501, especially when it would be so advantageous for the league to file as a 501(C). All contributions would then be tax-deductable.

        Why are people so willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt when they have repeatedly offered unclear and inconcsistent explainations of their activity? Just because they are affiliated with the open source community? Please, take your blinders off. Something smells in the state of Delaware, folks, whether you want to believe it or not.

        I think Dennis Powell should be commended for raising these questions.
        • What you're missing here is that the league *claims* to be a 501(c) to the state of Delaware.


          I've seen no evidence of such outside the assertions of the Linux and Main editorials. Given the apparent lack of accuracy in said editorials, I do not find them convincing. Among other problems, the Linux and Main editorialists do not appear to grasp the distinction between being tax exempt and being not-for-profit.

          The by-laws of the KDE League (available on their web site) make no mention of tax exempt status. They do not state that donations are tax deductable. There is no reason to believe that the KDE League has ever claimed to anyone to be tax exempt.

          States do not determine whether a group is tax exempt or not; the IRS does.


          Strictly speaking, this is not entirely correct. Obviously only a federal body (such as the IRS) can make a determination on whether or not an organization is federally tax exempt. However, each state has within its power to determine whether or not an organization is also exempt from state taxes. (An exception to this is where federal law prohibits certain types of state taxes to be levied against certain types of institutions.)

          Why are people so willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt when they have repeatedly offered unclear and inconcsistent explainations of their activity? Just because they are affiliated with the open source community? Please, take your blinders off. Something smells in the state of Delaware, folks, whether you want to believe it or not.


          The fact of the matter is that it is a trivial action to verify that status of the KDE League through the clerk of courts of the state of Delaware. That none of the parties making the allegations that the League claims to be a 501(c) have done so gives a distinct lack of credibility to those allegations.

          It isn't a matter of having blinders on. It is a matter of the person making an assertion having the onus of proving that assertion when it is disputable. In the context of what little I know of corporate law, Andreas Pour's counter assertions make much more sense than Dennis Powell's accusations. Until such time as Linux and Main shows concrete evidence of their allegations (such as a copy of the KDE League's application for a corporate charter), I'll continue to be quite skeptical of their claims.

  • Claiming they do not have to disclose is a joke. The IRS, for example, can demand a full disclosure of all their books.

    Depending on their status they may or may not need to disclose cartain information to the public.

    Statements like this do not make for good public relations. Someone needs to have a talk with this guy.
    • The debate is not over whether or not the KDE League has to file tax forms. The debate is over whether or not the KDE League has any obligation to disclose key financial documents to the public.

      For tax exempt nonprofit organizations, public disclosure of certain documents is mandatory. In this context it matters a great deal as to whether or not the KDE Leauge is a tax exempt organization.

      Bear in mind, that not all nonprofit organzations are tax exempt. A good example is that most Politcal Action Committees (PACs) are organized as nonprofit organizations. However, PACs are precluded from having tax exempt status.

  • KDE 3.0.4 is out (Score:3, Informative)

    by InodoroPereyra (514794) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:44PM (#4424944)
    How about mentioning something useful ?. is KDE 3.04 is out [kde.org], with several bugfixes (including two security advisories and several memory leaks in the libs).
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:44PM (#4424945)
    Obviously the proper way to handle this is to start a New League. Call it the Gnome League, or maybe the Sawfish League. Let the KDE league play with themselves most of the year*, and the Gnome League play with THEMSELVES most of the year*, and bring the best teams from each league together at the end of the year for one big series. Sell tickets, get it on ABC or ESPN, it'll be great. Maybe you could get Don King and pugil sticks involved somehow, with Natalie Portman as sideline reporter girl.

    *you know that is how they spend most of their free time anyway...
  • by LordYUK (552359) <<moc.liamg> <ta> <128thgirwffej>> on Thursday October 10, 2002 @12:49PM (#4424984)
    hmm... IMHO from the DEP atricle, it sounds like KDE and OFB are SOL, but WTF do I know, I didnt RTFM... and better yet, WGASA?

    TTFN!

    Humor Folks, enjoy it! =)
  • For those of us who have not kept up with Days of our KDE Lives, can anybody please post the backstory?

    What is the KDE League? What's their relationship to KDE / The Kompany / anyone else? And what's the current stink about?

    The article just leads me to believe that "KDE League" publishes press releases for KDE, and they dissapeared all of a sudden. Was there money stolen/embezzled? I'm not sure I understand the broad picture.
    • by sharkey (16670) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @01:14PM (#4425214)
      What is the KDE League?

      Kind of like the Justice League of America, but without attractive people in leather tights, superpowers or monkeys.
    • by Dr.Dubious DDQ (11968) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @01:51PM (#4425588) Homepage

      The KDE League is essentially a "fan club". It was formed, independent of the actual KDE software projects, to promote KDE.

      It would be like ME setting up "The Microsoft League" in my basement, and selling Memberships to, say, Compaq, Intuit Software, Ziff-Davis, and a handful of other corporations who like Microsoft. I would have no direct relationship with Microsoft, I'd just be claiming I want to "promote Microsoft".

      In this hypothetical case, Compaq, Intuit, etc. may end up having wasted the money they gave me, but it still has no effect on Microsoft...

      Dennis E. Powell posted a somewhat sensational story claiming that the KDE League had ceased to exist, asking "what happened to the money?" and so on. (Several people have accused DEP of having a sort of 'vendetta' against KDE in general over political disagreements he had with people on a KDE-mailinglist-hosted-but-not-KDE-related mailing list (i.e. the 'all topics other than KDE' mailing list) - DEP had posted an editorial which began with an implication that maybe the "K" in KDE was there because it resembled a goose-stepping soldier [linuxandmain.com]) Andreas Pour of the KDE League posted a response to DEP's story on the KDE League saying, in essence, "It's merely a clerical error, we're getting it sorted out, and we really can't say much more without approval from our members". DEP posted a story in response saying (my interpretation/summary) - "Delaware says you're a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, so you have to tell us WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MONEY!". The most recent exchange here seems to be Pour saying "We're not a 501(c)(3), We called Delaware and they said A)They didn't say we were B)Nobody there should say were were and C)No, we're NOT a 501(c)(3)", and DEP's response that he "stands by his story".

      As I posted above, I am puzzled why all the noise is coming out of this - it looks like what we have is a handful of rabid pro- and anti- KDE people all getting caught up in the sensationalism. The small handful of ANTI-KDE folks yelling because they want to discredit KDE, and the PRO-KDE folks yelling because they either feel they're being slandered or are worried that the KDE software projects are somehow being "ripped off" by the KDE League (presumably in the mistaken belief that the KDE League is analogous to the Gnome Foundation rather than merely a 'fan club'). The sheer volume of the screaming seems to be bringing attention from a whole mess or more normal people who are trying to figure out what all the fuss is about...

      Disclaimer - the above is entirely my interpretation, except were indicated, and could very well be wrong. That IS how I see this issue, though...

  • by JoeBuck (7947) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @01:11PM (#4425196) Homepage

    The KDE League bylaws [kdeleague.org] clearly state that it is a nonprofit, and the article makes the case that it is not a 501(c)(3) organization. Is it, then, a 501(c)(6) organization (a business league)?

    If so, there are, indeed, public disclosure requirements imposed by the IRS. See this page [irs.gov] and read the last paragraph. Yes, this page applies to all nonprofits, including business leagues, as this page [irs.gov] makes clear. If, in fact, the KDE League is a "business league", Dennis Powell (no matter how much of a jerk you or I might think he is, and believe me, I'm not a fan) was within his legal rights to ask for disclosures. He is not be entitled to the full books, but he is entitled to "the last three annual information returns".

    If the KDE league is not a 501(c)(6) either, then I don't see how it can be a legal nonprofit at all, in which case they owe Delaware filing fees that haven't been paid.

    You can't just say that you're an ordinary corporation that doesn't expect to make money. With such a status you have to pay filing fees to the state of Delaware, and Delaware is now saying that the league doesn't owe them. So which is it? Either KDE League has to pay Delaware or they have to give Dennis Powell their annual information report. One or the other.

    If I'm wrong, then it must be the case that the KDE League has some alternate legal status that I'm not familiar with. If so, what is it?

    I'm not saying this to attack KDE. KDE and the KDE League are distinct entities, and I'm not seeing any evidence that the KDE League is serving the interests of KDE's developers or users. Any responses should leave the personality or beliefs of Dennis Powell out, as they are irrelevant.

    • The page you linked to deals exclusively with the disclosure obligations of tax exempt organizations. Not all nonprofits are tax exempt.

      Most nonprofit organizations file normal corporate tax returns and face no more disclosure rules than any other private organization. It is only those nonprofit organizations that have also filed for and have received tax exempt status from the IRS that face additional disclosure requirements.

      Put bluntly, the IRS doesn't concern itself with whether or not a corporation is incorporated as a nonprofit organization. The IRS only cares that the corporation pays its federal taxes unless that corporation has applied for and received tax exempt status.

      Given that there is no reason to believe that the KDE league has applied for (much less received) tax exempt status, there is no reason to believe that the KDE league faces additional disclosure requirements over any other non-public corporation.

      You may also be interested in reading the Delaware Revised Code [state.de.us] on the subject. See especially Title 8, Chapter 1.

      • What I am asking for is for someone to clarify the exact legal status that the KDE League has.

        • They are an nonprofit corporation incorporated in the state of Delaware. You can write to the clerk of courts of the state of Delaware and get copy of their articles of incorporation. If the KDE Leage was also a tax exempt organization (which they claim their not), you could also write to them and request a copy of their IRS Form 1023 (or 1024) for the past three financial periods.
    • Why don't you trust the federal state Delaware to handle this correctly? Ok, after they charged a penalty by error - but they are the only one besides KDE e.V., because their trademark is used, and the payers who can request insight into the League's books.
  • by Dr.Dubious DDQ (11968) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @01:26PM (#4425313) Homepage

    What *I* don't get in all of this is - isn't the KDE League getting its money from private corporations (I see NO individuals in the members list, only corporations, several of which are rather large)...one of whom is KDE e.V. (Am I reading this correctly)? Who in turn says they've got no reason to believe anything funny's going on? It's THEIR money - if THEY don't think anything wrong is being done with it, why the heck does anyone who DIDN'T give them money care?

    I've only seen one entity that actually ever had anything to do with the KDE League complain, and that's Shawn Gordon, whose company apparently USED TO BE a member (but are not any more, as far as I know. Unpleasant 'break-up', perhaps?).

    I keep seeing comparisons with the Gnome Foundation, which is a completely different type of group. The Gnome Foundation, as I understand it, is directly involved in steering Gnome development - it's actually an official part of the Gnome project(s). The KDE League is purely promotional - to put it bluntly, the KDE League is a "Fan Club". They have no more involvement in 'steering' or otherwise influencing development than any other fan of KDE does.

    It's also been pointed out elsewhere that $120,000 is a lot of money when it's sitting in a suitcase on your doorstep in the form of small unmarked bills, but it's a pittance when considered as a yearly budget for any kind of corporation. I think the highest-paid individual there is said to have been paid $36k/year salary to run it. Take out that, rent on facilities, purchase of equipment, and so on, and there's not much left...

    Now, as to whether or not the KDE League is effective at DOING anything, I couldn't say. I do certainly get the impression that they've not been active at all (basically, as far as I know, they've spent the little funding they had by just merely existing, and not really accomplishing anything), but given that the unrelated-except-by-name-and-theme KDE Software projects (that is, the actual developers, etc., who have no relationship with the KDE League as far as I know) seem to be doing just fine without the KDE League's additional promotion, I'm not too concerned about it. For all I care, the KDE League could have spent all the money on cheap prostitutes, malt liquor, and pornographic videos featuring necropedobestiality, and it will have still done no more harm than wasting a few thousand dollars each from a handful of private corporations (there are 10 listed on the members page - if they all donated the same amount, that's a "whopping" $12,000 each. That's barely pocket-change to corporations like IBM and Fujitsu-Siemens...), who don't seem to even care what happened to THEIR money...

    'Scuze the long post, I'm just utterly baffled at all the screaming going on over this thing. I could understand a chorus of "Ha, ha, member corporations, you wasted your money", but shrieking hatred of the sort reserved for Enron and Worldcom and so on just makes no sense to me at all...

    • Read this insightful posting [kde.org] of Chris Schlaeger (SuSE distribution development chief) about KDE e.V. and KDE League. Note that new board members of KDE e.V. were elected recently, the RedHat employee is not in there anymore.
    • Thank you for a calm, well-reasoned comment amongst acres of rubbish.

      According to a comment on the OfB.biz article, one of the things the KDE League has spent money on is a PR firm.

      Perhaps that PR firm has been kept busy announcing new releases of KDE, such as KDE 3.0.4, OUT TODAY [kde.org].

      And the man at the centre of the storm, Andreas Pour (also known as Dre), has been busy too - here's another announcement of KDE 3.0.4 [kde.org] at dot.kde.org.

      Nice to see he's keeping on in there and just getting on with the job. All this code doesn't just appear by magic.
  • HogWash (Score:3, Flamebait)

    by oldstrat (87076) on Thursday October 10, 2002 @03:05PM (#4426350) Journal
    .
    Too much of all this KDE League Bunk is just hogwash.

    Is anyone here, asside from myself able to make a couple of clicks and read for themselves?

    It is VERY VERY clear that the KDE League is supposed to be a Public Relations front for KDE.

    It is also quite clear that it is a not for profit, not a non-profit.

    It is also quite clear that they are not working as a PR group and that moneys are being piped from for profits into the hands of a special few.

    The State Attorney General of Delaware needs to be looking into this organization to see exactly what the story is and should be contacting the members.

    I don't hold any stock in the companies that are members, but if I did I would be sending letters to the Boards of those companies asking for clarification.

    One thing is for certain there's smoke and KDE League appears to be pulling PR pranks to pretend that it's just a low level fog, and nothings burning.

    And before the legal dogs start barking at my door I want to make it clear that this is my OPINION, each of you are free to explore the facts and form your own.
  • What Happened (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The story is basically very simple. The KDE League was set up to promote KDE, and it got $120,000 to spend doing it. This seemed like a good idea and so everyone was hopeful good things would happen. But two years have passed and little or no promotion has been done, and so most people are curious as to what went wrong. When asked, the leaders say nothing, and so a lot of people wonder if they have something to hide. I myself am a KDE user and I wish they just tell us what happened. Maybe they don't have to legally but it would settle the issue and then we could go on to other, more rewarding things.

    By the way, here is a list of the original KDE League members:
    Caldera
    Compaq
    Corel
    Fujitsu-Siemens
    Hewlett-Packard
    IBM
    KDE.com
    Klarälvdalens Datakonsult
    theKompany.com
    Mandrakesoft
    SuSE

    Maybe people could email them to find out what happened. I did that with IBM three days ago and the fellow said he would look into it, but I have not gotten a reply back yet.
  • The programmers of old were mysterious and profound. We cannot fathom
    their thoughts, so all we do is describe their appearance.
    Aware, like a fox crossing the water. Alert, like a general on the
    battlefield. Kind, like a hostess greeting her guests. Simple, like uncarved
    blocks of wood. Opaque, like black pools in darkened caves.
    Who can tell the secrets of their hearts and minds?
    The answer exists only in the Tao.
    -- Geoffrey James, "The Tao of Programming"

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