Toyota to Move to All Hybrid Vehicles By 2012

ftumph writes "Toyota has announced that all their vehicles will be gas-electric hybrids by 2012. The plan is to eliminate the current $3,000 per vehicle additional cost for hybrid engines through mass production."

I think...

[SquierStrat]

I think I'd rather see Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles than hybrids. From what I've read, the fuel cell vehicles are more efficient not to mention cleaner. But I guess all of these thing take time, no?

Alot has to happen...

[jav1231]

for this to become a reality. That 2012 deadline will likely be pushed back. Until they can get power output up Americans just aren't going to buy these things in droves. Then again, maybe Toyota is just tired of making all that money. >

So more prices!

[Martigan80]

So now the government will raise the price of electricity too! Feel sorry for California.

Of course this could be done now but the Big Oil people still want to squeeze some more out before they change to electricity.

Maybe the EPA will back off of them if they burn their own oil for electricity and then sell us the electricity so the_cars_run cleaner but the factories are still spewing out the crap.

Re:I think...

[smelroy]

We already have a gasoline infastructure in place. It would cost more money (and time like you said) then I can imagine to change all the gas stations into Hydrogen stations. Hydrogen fuel would be pretty sweet though!

Less oil dependency

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, any step which takes us further away from an oil economy can only be a good thing for world stability, the environment and the economy.

Great to see

[brycenut]

If anyone can do it, Toyota (or Honda) can. The Japanese automakers still seem to be leading the US, as evidenced by their great ratings in car magazines and Consumer Reports.

Coupled with yesterdays news [usatoday.com] that gas mileage is continuing to drop in 2003 models, this is a great announcement.

small surpise it's toyota...

[caveat]

...they don't have any true high-performance cars left.
i just can't imagine a supra tt or a mkII mr2 turbo running nearly as fast on a hybrid engine as on a pure gas motor. although a really small, light nimble car like a mkIII mr2 or a miata could probably work well with a hybrid, especially with the smooth throttle control the electric motor. and who knows, i could be wrong and we could have 2.4L 550-hp 38mpg hybrid engines in two years. :D

Re:Future costs?

[mprinkey]

Probably not.

Assume 100,000 miles over the lifetime of the car, $1.50 per gallon for gas. At 50 MPG, you would spend $3000 on gas over the life of the car. At 40 MPG, it would be $3750. At 30 MPG, $5000. So, that is only a $2000 savings compared to $3000 incremental cost.

Of course, if you double fuel costs, the economics change. Also, if you plan on getting 250,000 miles from your car, it also changes. At the very least, I would say that there is no economic advantage to higher efficiency systems like this. This of course ignores the costs of "environmental impact" which are very difficult to quantify. The key issues is that it makes technological sense and the economics are not too bad.

This all should have been done already

[wobedraggled]

But as always greedy americans, too lazy to change, gee HDTV when??!! never because we can't agree. Little soccer mommies, yakking away on thir phones, driving an SUV 30x times thier size, getting 1mpg on the highway .5 city. Things need to change, but they will be slow because the main populace is a bunch of greedy un-informed sheep.

/me steps off the soap box.

This is great!

[VitrosChemistryAnaly]

I'm telling you, hybrids are great!

When I was looking for a new car, I test drove the Toyota Prius and the Honda Insite. Both cars were awesomely silent when you got up to cruising mode. It was actually kinda eerie!

Anyway, I ended up going with a VW Golf TDi (another high efficiency vehicle).

Long story short, hybrid vehicles are really great and they're a good intermediate step between petroleum based fuels and electric cars.

Toyota & the market

[Brento]

Toyota's always been a visionary and hit the moving market targets well. Think back to the early-to-mid 80's, and you'll remember that they had great affordable sports cars (Celica, Supra) at exactly the time when sports cars were the rage. During the 90's, they let their sports cars get bloated, because the market was about luxury, and they axed the cars before they became jokes (think Camaro).

At the same time, in the early 90s, they were rolling out a big line of SUV's. Today, with SUV's all the rage, Toyota has models for everybody - the RAV4, the 4runner, the big Land Cruiser, the Highlander, you name it - plus all the models they sell under the Lexus brand.

If Toyota says their models will all be green-friendly in 2012, you'd better believe that they're going to be in the right place at the right time again, and green vehicles will be all the rage. Toyota does brilliant product planning.

Re:Finally!

[ari_j]

The American manufacturers will be the last to do something like this, because they understand what Americans like in vehicles. I want my sleek lines and throaty V8. I want a car that goes 79 mph down the road without a complaint about hills, and that has an extra 70 mph on top of that, at least 20 of which are right there when I ask for them in order to pass someone. I want a car that's fun to drive, with tight steering, hot acceleration, and good brakes. I want a car that's challenging and interesting to drive, with ABS and traction control that I can turn off when I feel the need to put new tires on. I want a car that expresses my personality. Or, on the other hand, I'd also love to have a truck that I can call a truck. Not a hybrid SUV. Not a POS. But a real pickup truck, like some manufacturers still make even if they forgot how for about 5 years in the mid- to late 90s. A truck with horsepower, heavy frame, fifth-wheel ball, easy-off tailgate, etc. - a truck that can haul or pull anything I throw at it within some semblance of reason.

These aren't possible with hybrids, at this point. When they are, then you'll see American vehicles with hybrid engines. But not beforehand, if they're real Americans.

Re:Alot has to happen...

[ictatha]

"Until they can get power output up Americans just aren't going to buy these things in droves."

I believe the American auto industry had a similar attitude back in the '80s about these new-fangled foreign compact cars... "Americans want big, powerful cars... they'll never buy those little foreign cars." We all know how that went.

I, for one, am glad that *some* auto company has actually made a real commitment to change.

Re:Finally!

[ari_j]

Then let me rephrase: The current mindset that car manufacturers put into hybrid engine technology takes away its viability for use in sports cars and pickup trucks. (It's possible with hybrids, yes; but only possible if you put the right effort forth, which nobody appears to be doing, thus making it impossible.)

As to overcompensating for something, if you're trying to imply that the only use for a sports car or a pickup truck is as a penis extension, then you've had some kind of sick self esteem issues pounded into your head at some point. Face it, trucks are useful and sports cars are fun to drive. Why would I ever want to be bored when I could be excited, and the only necessary change is what car I'm in?

Re:I think...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand the hype surrounding fuel cells; they are obstensibly a more green (non-polluting) solution, but they are not really an 'alternative' energy source. The vast majority of the hydrogen produced for use as fuel comes from hydrocarbons-->petroleum. Most other solutions for creating free hydrogen require more energy to produce than is freed, and this energy requirement is satisfied with fossil fuels. Like the pure electric car, fuel cells are only a point solution; the total energy cost is significantly higher than a modern gasoline engine (not to mention hybrids).

Re:Finally!

[TheWickedKingJeremy]

I want a car that expresses my personality.

There you have it... Proof that elaborate marketing campaigns work wonders.

Re:Electricity Taxes

[Kilmor]

And why exactly do our roads need billions of dolalrs of upkeep a year??
Does my 1984 mazda 626 really cause that much damage to the roads? Or would 10,000 cars just like mine?
Nope. Big trucks. Big heavy ass trucks tear up the roads, and we the normal average Joe Gas-n-Go have to pay for it.
Maybe they should look at expanding the rail industry and put some serious detriments to shipping damn near everything by big rig. It would certainly make the roads alot safer, if not for the simply fact that I won't have to dodge the big chunks of retread tire these things flake off.

Remember, less trucks = safer roads, which is Good For The Children(TM).

Re:is 50mpg a lot?

[jo.cool]

Agreed, I would like their sights to be set just a bit higher. However, the stats you are quoting refer to diesel vehicles, which, while getting great mileage, are horrible pollution emitters. While the latest VW TDi engines have gone a long way in reducing emissions, they are still some of the worst polluters on the road (among automobiles).

Look here [epa.gov] and notice all the TDi VW's at the way bottom of the list.

If everyone in the country drove a diesel, we'd be relying less on foreign oil, but we wouldn't be able to breathe.

Re:is 50mpg a lot?

[adamdeprince]

A gallon of diesel is not the same as a gallon of gas - diesel fuel has substantially more energy per unit volume. The goal isn't to reduce the overall volume of fuel consumped, but to reduce the energy consumed, whatever the form might be it.

Your diesel Passat is slightly dirtier than a conventional car when it runs - the environmental concern addressed by the Prius is not just fuel economy, it is also air quality. The Prius does trade off fuel economy for better emissions

As for your Passat's best case milage - 70mpg isn't that impressive, it is about 60mpg gas. On long road trips I commonly exceed 65 mpg in my Prius.

What you neglect to consider is most of the fuel is not burned on vacation driving along highways in rural areas - it is burned commuting, driving in cities (most people live in cities) and other less than idea conditions -- Your German VW does not get 75mpg when stuck in traffic.

I will conceed that non-hybrid with the same 70hp engine as the Prius will get slightly better milage if driven exclusively on the highway due to the weight reduction of not having to lug around a battery.

Re:Finally!

[TheWickedKingJeremy]

I think what the American people like in their cars would come a distant 2nd place to the oil companies that would complain about the US gas guzzlers being removed. I dont understand how US cars seem to be just designed to drink fuel.

Believe me, I have no love for the oil companies... And as a hybrid owner, I like to at least think that I care a little more about these issues than your average joe does, but I cant help but feel that simply blaming the oil companies is an oversimplification, and ultimately just an excuse.

If you look at the variety of cars that are available to consumers today, it is astounding... You have entire fleets of different types of gas-guzzling SUVs, mid-size cars, large cars, compacts, sub-compacts, jeeps, vans, sports cars, mini-sports cars, etc. For any one type of car, you literally have your choice from dozens, if not hundreds, of different models.

How then does it become the oil companies fault when people go out and actively purchase these monster SUVs? As I mentioned before, I bought an awesome (IMHO, at least ;) Honda hybrid-car for about half the price of an SUV... I get great gas mileage, it handles beautifully --- whats the problem? How does an oil company affect me making the decision to buy (or not to buy) a sensible car like this one? How was it that I somehow avoided their influence, whereas many others do not?

It would be one thing if the gas-guzzlers were cheaper than the fuel-sippers -- then you could argue that your average american simply could not afford to be environmentally responsible... but it is the other way around! In reality, this is a cultural problem ... Americans tend to want "bigger-better-more" ... The oil companies at capitalizing on this fact - but they are not the source of the problem.

Attacking the market from the wrong direction

[bill_mcgonigle]

I can already get a new Beetle that gets 49MPG. Another tiny car with slightly better mileage isn't what we need. We need station wagons and SUV's that can get 30MPG instead of 16 or 20. That will have a much greater effect on the nation's dependence on foreign oil and air pollution than trying to be the first to do 100MPG. Right now, it's just a contest for bragging rights among the auto manufacturers.

Heck, I'd love to have an electric hybrid engine in my truck; it would be perfect for commuting - just give me a switch to run full-gas when I need to move a couple tons of rock or pull a boat.

Re:Finally!

[trailerparkcassanova]

You incorrectly associate 'hybrid' with low-power. I got news for you, bub. Ever hear of a diesel-electric locomotive? That's a hybrid.

NOT RELEVANT (Was: Electricity Taxes)

[Phreakiture]

A hybrid generates its own electricity. You do not plug it in. Its efficiency comes from the fact that it makes for a more even distribution of the energy produced by burning gasoline.

Why are so many people not getting this point?!?

Re:Finally!

[Exedore]

The current mindset that car manufacturers put into hybrid engine technology takes away its viability for use in sports cars and pickup trucks. (It's possible with hybrids, yes; but only possible if you put the right effort forth, which nobody appears to be doing, thus making it impossible.)

Errrrm... I think that's sorta what Toyota's announcement is about: "We're going to put forth the effort to do this."

Re:Finally!

[iabervon]

Actually, those of us who live in cities would kind of like to go 0-20 and across an intersection before the other line of cars moves. Hybrids are better for low-end acceleration, and, if there are too many red lights to even get up to 79 on a regular basis, it just doesn't matter whether the car can handle that. There's just something annoying about just barely getting your car up to speed each time before you stop again.

So I think that there's a good market for hybrids in cities, where the roads are narrower than the truck you want.

$1000 now, and it *will* come down...

[aquarian]

The battery packs were about $1800 when these cars came out, they're priced at $1000 now, and they'll get much cheaper than that. One of the big advantages of the current hybrid designs is that they use common, commodity battery tachnology, unlike all-electric cars like the EV-1. How's this for commodity -- the Prius and Insight actually use regular, NiMH "D" flashlight cells. I'm not kidding. So not only will there be aftermarket suppliers, replacement packs may even be within reach of the home DIY'er.

Re:Finally!

[Greedo]

It would be one thing if the gas-guzzlers were cheaper than the fuel-sippers -- then you could argue that your average american simply could not afford to be environmentally responsible... but it is the other way around!

Except that when you take into account the "hidden" costs of owning a gas guzzler -- the damage to the environment, the resultant healthcare costs, the reliance on foreign oil and the resulant miliary campaigns to secure it, etc. -- then SUVs and their ilk *are* more expensive.

Of course, Joe American doesn't see those costs on the sticker. Joe American probably doesn't even have half a clue about those things. He just sees a cool looking car.

In reality, this is a cultural problem ... Americans tend to want "bigger-better-more" ... The oil companies at capitalizing on this fact - but they are not the source of the problem.

I agree with the first statement, but I don't know so much about the second. They aren't a direct source of the problem, sure. But I bet they contribute a lot of money to make sure the government doesn't raise taxes on gasoline. Look at what they pay in Europe for gas: close to three times the price, most of that taxes earmarked for things like improving public transit, cleaning up the environment, etc..

So combine the oil companies concern for higher profits at the expense of a better environment, and car companies concern for higher profits at the expense of a better environment, and Joe American's concern for a cool looking car at the expense of the environment ... and there you go.

Re:American automobiles as substitute egos.

[Cromac]

"FWIW, I've *never* seen a woman try to frighten others on the road as they pass. They don't seem to need nearly as much attention on the road." Or PAY nearly as much attention on the road. Daily I see women change lanes without looking or signaling, putting on makup while driving etc etc. Women as just as dangerous on the road as men, just in different ways. I used to be a courier, drove 100,000 miles a year, the one accident I was in was caused by a woman rear ending me while I was stopped to make a left turn, at noon on a sunny day. She had no excuse other than that she wasn't paying attention.

Re:This is good news, but costs far outweigh benef

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

Further, we have some real world data about the durability of a Prius battery. The Prius egroup carried an article about Yellow Cab in Vancouver BC, which has a Prius in taxi service. 200,000 km, many charge-discharge cycles, and all the power train components including the battery are still factory original.

Toyota claims to have bench tested the Prius battery pack to a simulated 150,000 miles.

That 3-year number sounds like it comes from the experience of pure electric vehicles. Batteries won't last long in those because deep discharge cycles gradually damage batteries. The Prius uses the gas engine as an onboard generator and can keep the discharge cycles much shallower, allowing the battery to last longer.

Oh, a minor correction to the sibling article: D cells are only the the Japanese model of the Prius. For the US model they were replaced by thinner prismatic cells.

Re:Wankel

[Kragma]

Unless Mazda has done something really drastic with the design of the apex seals, the Renesis engine still will have to inject oil into the combustion chamber like the 13B (RX-7) did. So they really are a lot like 2 strokes in that they burn oil as part of the design. It's not nearly as much as a 2 stroke, but they do burn it.

Wankels are good for one thing: power to weight. The 1.3L 13B weighs only about 350lbs with it's accesories. That's about half what your standard aluminium block V6 weighs. With the help of a turbo, it's capable of 300hp without over-stressing it. But even the NA versions of the 13B have horrible gas miliage for a 1.3L engine.

Personally I think the answer is in turbo diesel hybrids. Toyota has the technology to do this, they're one of the leading technology companies in the small diesel market and easily the leading company in hybrid technology.