Toyota to Move to All Hybrid Vehicles By 2012 660
ftumph writes "Toyota has announced that
all their vehicles will be gas-electric hybrids by 2012. The plan is to eliminate the current $3,000 per vehicle additional cost for hybrid engines through mass production."
Finally! (Score:5, Interesting)
Wankel (Score:4, Interesting)
Future costs? (Score:5, Interesting)
---- .sig [wallpaperscoverings.com]
Link
Re:Less oil dependency (Score:2, Interesting)
Oil is the only real wealth the countries like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have. Take the need for it away and we just might see in our lifetime the birth of a totalitarian Islamic superstate run by religious fanatics.
Oil also runs the world economy. Take the need for oil away and we have a looong worldwide depression ahead of us.
AUTOnomy seems like a better idea to me... (Score:2, Interesting)
Toyota's plan will add more weight, bulk, and complexity to the car, while simultaneously reducing acceleration, handling, and passenger space. With all the cons above, I don't think many people will consider it a viable alternative to straight combustion engines.
GM's AUTOnomy project not only has the potential for greater acceleration, being a transmissionless electric auto platform, but having motors in each wheel means most vehicles will be able to (literally!) turn on a dime. It's a 100% fuel cell vehicle, and all the workings fit in a 6" high plate at the bottom of the vehicle. It makes the car safer, lighter, easier to handle, and since there is no engine, no battery packs, and basically nothing above ankle-height, passenger safety is vastly improved (no engine to break your legs in a crash) along with comfort.
Which car will Americans choose? Well, I guess it actually all depends on who's marketing their car more agressively.
But will we be able to service it ourselves? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Alot has to happen... (Score:3, Interesting)
Having driven a Prius, the acceleration is actually quite good--and in the right conditions 50+ miles per US gallon fuel efficiency is great.
I think once the new EPA rules on cleaner diesel fuel comes into effect in a few years we may see diesel-electric hybrids--now imagine a Toyota Corolla with a diesel-electric drivetrain getting 75 mpg and still meet Super-Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle standards!
is 50mpg a lot? (Score:4, Interesting)
We used to own a family sedan (Volkswagen Passat) which got 45 miles to the galon of Diesel fuel. Driven economically, you could get it up to about 70 miles a galon. This was 8 years ago.
And here in Germany VW have had the 3l Lupo, where the 3l standing for 3l/100km consumption, which translates to about 75mpg, out a couple of years also.
So I ask you: Is 50mpg really that good?
Re:Wankel (Score:3, Interesting)
That's true in the past, but Mazda changed the design of the combustion chamber recently so the fuel is burned more completely. The upcoming RX-8 sports car is the first Wankel-powered vehicle to use this new design engine, and the result is a very dramatic drop in pollution levels.
Hmmm--a replacement for the MX-5 Miata that has a 100 bhp high-efficiency Wankel engine and a 40 bhp electric motor? That could be a very interesting idea indeed!
Re:They work in Conjunction... (Score:2, Interesting)
There are actually three possible designs:
* Small engine driving the car with an electric backup/boost. Allows a smaller engine for the same output and not too much redesign of current vehicles.
* Electric drive with the engine used to drive the electric motor and load the batteries, and also used directly to boost accelleration when needed. The advantage is that you can 'coast' periodically (or when in cities) with the engine turned off.
* All electric, with an engine just to charge batteries as well as giving extra power directly to the electric motor when needed. This is the most efficient, as the engine can be designed for a specific RPM - or replaced with a gas turbine.
Depending on the details of the design, you do not need to carry a lot of extra batteries; they are used only as a buffer between the engine and the electric motor. If you want the ability to coast, you need more, of course. But especially with the third type, the weight of batteries are offset by the much smaller engine, smaller tank and the lack of a heavy mechanical drivetrain to the wheels - you can give each wheel a motor.
Electricity Taxes (Score:4, Interesting)
This is good news, but costs far outweigh benefits (Score:3, Interesting)
Works two ways: Honda's or Toyota's (Score:1, Interesting)
Honda's hybrids run on the gas motor and use the electic to boost performance.
Niether company uses the gas motor just to recharge the batteries. The two engines, when both operating, work together to provide the power to move the vehicle. As a result, the electic motor can be combined with a smaller gas engine for better mileage and emissions, or added onto the existing engine for a performance boost. In the second senario think of it like an electric supercharger.....
Powerballs (Score:5, Interesting)
At the filling station, they pump out the broken shells, water and NaOH from your tank, before putting in new water and powerballs. The broken shells are recyclable. The NaOH is reacted with fresh H2 to produce water and NaH.
There needs to be some regulatory rules to make this process as clean as it promises to be. NaOH is nasty stuff, though no more toxic than gasoline. But overall, it's a cool idea.
Re:is 50mpg a lot? (Score:1, Interesting)
Compared to the examples you give, maybe not, but a report was released just the other day that the average fuel economy for 2003 model year vehicles is down to (I think) 20.3 miles/gallon. This is a 15-year low. The Chevy Suburban, currently one of the most popular SUVs, gets 12 miles/gallon.
To top this all off, the republicans in congress rejected a call by Senator Kerry to have an average fuel economy of 36 mpg by 2016, claiming it was too much of a burden on the Auto industry.
Prius Experience / Misconceptions / Mild or Full? (Score:5, Interesting)
There is however a battery pack under the rear seat of the car and accessible from the trunk. Under the hood there is a conventional 4 cylinder engine as well as a electrical motor/generator. Here's where it gets fun: in order to slow down, the generator spins backwards (!) slowing the car down and generating energy. When the need for strong breaking occurs, or at low speeds, the friction brakes kick in. The system is very refined, with only a small barely noticeable transition between regenerative breaking and friction breaking. The energy generated is then stored in the batteries.
Internal combustion engines are least efficient when they first start up and also produce the most pollutants at start up. The Prius uses its electric battery power to drive the motor forward and get the car moving. This dramatically reduces wear on the engine and lowers emissions and increases mileage. (Note: At speeds under 38 mph, you can run totally on electric power -- or stealth mode -- the car is completely silent! Very cool.) That's a real basic run down. For real engineers & car people -- note the lack of a planetary gear, an ignition system, etc. There's a lot going on in this car!
I alluded to the biggest misconception earlier -- there is no plug. All the energy is generated internally. Some other folks have mentioned fuel cells, I sat in on a briefing a few days ago with some top EPA/DOE folks, and they made it quite clear the technology isn't quite there yet. But the biggest problem is the hydrogen infrastructure that would have to be built. I sensed that they would personally favor government intervention to encourage this, but that would be extremely unlikely under the current administration.
One last comment -- there are two categories of hybrid cars -- full and mild. Both are good, but if Toyota is talking about mild hybrids, this story is a bit more of a yawn. Mild hybrid just means that the engine kicks off when the vehicle is stopped. Basically, the only additional battery needed is to spark the engine back to life. This is a good thing (imagine all those idling engines turned off and not emitting pollutants), but it is hardly a revolutionary step. The technology to do this has existed for years.
But please -- everyone go out and buy a hybrid -- I've driven them all, and they are all amazing. Of course, the Prius is my favorite, but the hybrid civic is nice and so is the Insight. And keep your eyes open for the new hybrid Ford Escape due in late 2003. Encourage all your "I'm an environmentalist but I drive an SUV" friends to put their money where their mouths are!
Re:Wankel (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Prius Experience / Misconceptions / Mild or Ful (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Future costs? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Finally! (Score:2, Interesting)
I own a 2002 Toyota Prius, which is a hybrid electric vehicle. I guarantee I can beat your throaty 8 cyclinder out a stoplight...NO PROBLEM!! It can also do a comfortable 100 MPH, (though some have reported 174 km/hr on the Autobahn.)It will also pass anything in it's way in a heartbeat, 70-75 MPH is it's domain..and it gets around 50 MPG while doing it. AMericans need to abandon their selfish gas-guzzler mode and wake up to the reality that gasoline isn't going to always be there. Not to mention we are polluting our planet with carbon based fuel by-products.
Mike Hahn
mochalleng@aol.com
Re:Finally! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Finally! (Score:4, Interesting)
So you want an import? Personally every American-made car I've driven handles like crap. Granted I haven't driven Corvettes or Vipers, but those are exotics, not just American-made muscle.
Get yourself into a Subaru Impreza WRX, Mitsubishi Lancer EVO (ie. not the US version of the Lancer), a Nissan Skyline (obviously not in this country), or even an older Ford Escort Cosworth (again, not in the US). You'll be happy with the handling, braking, have excellent acceleration, control... everything you'd want, all in a sub-30k sports car -- including nearly 180hp. Oh, and all of those are All Wheel Drive, so maybe you can get somewhere in the snow now instead of having to have a seperate winter vehicle. :-)
You'll cry when your streetable Mustang pulls up next to a Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 and you know that you run 11's... and he wastes you. Click and check the "Check Out the Video of Adam's 10 Sec Galant HERE" link [automotosports.com]. Be prepared to cry - he's run faster.
Automobile discussions (Score:2, Interesting)
The truth is that automobiles haven't really changed in the last few decades. The headlights change shape every once in a while, and the industry innovates a little when they're required to by the government. However, hybrid fuel efficiency is a gimmick. There have been cars all thoughout the decades that have been able to get more than 50 mpg. Of course, they're always hailed as the latest marvel in automotive technology.
It's in the industry's best interest to convince you that you have to buy the latest models because last year's are out of date. I'm not an old timer, in fact, I'm fresh out of college. But I know enough about automotive history to know that it's all a big farce to get you to lay down another 30K after you just finished paying off your last car.
Listen to the commercials on TV. What are the selling points for these cars? "Power windows...power locks...CD player...power mirrors...air conditioning standard...adjustable seats..." I have a 1981 model automobile with ALL those features, and a 1998 model with almost none of them. (Actually, the CD player is aftermarket, obviously.)
Re:Finally! (Score:2, Interesting)
I know what it is to really drive a fun car.
Re:Alot has to happen... (Score:2, Interesting)
As I've heard before, "horsepower sells cars, but torque wins races."
Run your car on water? - Check this out.... (Score:2, Interesting)
Here are the plans for some of the Engineers amongst you.
If anybody gets to do this and succeeds please let us know.
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/c
Re:Finally! (Score:4, Interesting)
These aren't possible with hybrids, at this point. When they are, then you'll see American vehicles with hybrid engines. But not beforehand, if they're real Americans.
American companies tend to always be behind the curbe because they focus more on style than substance, though it tends to be that way for most large companies. The japanese car manufactures have been great innovators and have introduced more new concepts and technical innovations than american car companies in recent years. Look how long it took them to even improve gas milage. They passed legislation saying a car had to get 30 MPG/Highway, and american companies say we we need more time. 6 months later Japanese companies are producing a car that meets those regulations and does better. The thing they have a problem with is that they are not as big into marketing or making "cool cars" which is their biggest weakness.
Re:is 50mpg a lot? (Score:4, Interesting)
New small diesel engines are noticibly quieter and cleaner than those from the early 80's. My previous vehicle being a 1981 VW Rabbit diesel, the change to the new TDI engine was fantastic. And I don't have a plug hanging out of the front grill anymore, like I did on the Rabbit. And the lack of the black soot on the body is nice, too.
Most modern (under 7 years old, i think) diesel engines will also run biodiesel, which is part bio-byproduct, the french-fry grease fuel. They'll also run a mixture of gas and diesel.
I don't know if the same is true for gas, having never owned a gas car, but my car runs noticibly better on the fuel from some companies compared to others. Being that Texaco and Exxon/Mobil have the only diesel pumps in my area, the Texaco fuel gives me an extra 3-5 mpg over the Exxon.
VW produces most, if not all, of their models as diesels for import to the US. You may have to order them (I had to order mine).
--mandi
8 years of diesel so far.
No, it doesn't -Re:Future costs? (Score:4, Interesting)
I did a comparison with purchase price, gas prices, mileage, etc. between the F-150, and a new Honda hybrid.
The F-150 @ $12,000 and 20mpg does not start to cost more than the Honda @ $22,000 and 70 mpg until almost 200,000 miles.
And that is not including any maintenance costs. Battery replacement, etc.
Yes, the truck uses more gas. But the price differential is hard to ignore on a personal level.
Re:Electricity Taxes (Score:3, Interesting)
If you ship commodities by rail, you have to buy in bulk to make the economics work for you. That means higher inventories and bigger warehouses and capital tied up in COGS on the balance sheet instead of sitting on the Cash and Marketable Securities line. If you ship by truck, you have a great deal more flexibility, and less-than-truckload ordering becomes feasible.
Add to the fact that most of the industrial sites built in the last 20 years don't have rail spur access and you have quite a problem going back to rail. Yet Another Example of how business decisions affect infrastructure, which affects what's feasible in the future.
At this point, our best bets are a) hybrid deisel-electric semis, b) low-sulphur deisel (or preferably biodeisel) and c) better road-building technology.
RTFA! (Score:2, Interesting)
Slashdot: "all their vehicles will be gas-electric hybrids by 2012"
Article: "plans to use gasoline-electric hybrid engines in all vehicles"
It sounds more like they're planning to offer a hybrid version of each model in their line. It doesn't indicate that they'll abandon internal combustion.
Find the polluters on the animated map (Score:3, Interesting)
please tell me where you see the greatest levels of pollution over the year?
Are you shocked at the polution coming from India, Russia, and Europe? I'm certainly not. Now - compare it to the USA.
That's right.. its a piss in the ocean in comparison.
What amazes me is that the Russians, who have been whining and crying about Kyoto... good Lord! Look at Russia during the winter months.
The rest of the world is so full of crap when they complain about us.. but then, hard facts and evidence don't really matter to hippies, tree-huggers, or liberals.
E85 + Full Hybrid is the ONLY solution. MUST READ! (Score:3, Interesting)
By 2015 I would hope to see a combination of E85 Fuel and hybrid electric. E85 is a fuel blend of 100% renewable Ethanol and 15% gasoline. I have seen people claim that American car manufacturers are not paying attention to the "green" car. I say that isn't true. The Ford Taurus, in all it's grand ugliness has been a FFV vehicle for years. An FFV vehicle is a fuel flexible vehicle that can run on 100% gasoline, to any mix of ethonol up to 85%. There are currently more FFV vehicles on the market today than Hybrid Electric Vehicles.
Some include:
2.7L Dodge Stratus Sedan
2.7L Chrysler Sebring Sedan and Convertible
3.3L Dodge Cargo Minivan
3.3L Chrysler Voyager minivan
3.3L Dodge Caravan minivan
3.3L Chrysler Town & Country minivan
4.0L Explorer (4-door)
3.0L Taurus sedan and wagon
3.0L Supercab Ranger pickup 2WD
5.3L V-8 engine Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra half-ton pickups 2WD & 4WD
5.3L Vortec-engine Suburban, Tahoe, Yukon and Yukon XLs
3.0L Selected B3000 pickups
4.0L Selected Mountaineers
2.2L Hombre pickup 2WD
2.2L Chevrolet S-10 pickup 2WD
2.2L Sonoma GMC pickup 2WD
E85 vehicles require no plug either. They also require no infrastructure upgrades like other solutions. Ethanol combustion produces friendly CO2 gas that can be used by plants, and water. Ethanol produces 110 octane, thus keeping your engine cleaner. The biggest myth about Ethanol, is that it requires corn to be efficient. Not true again, many industrial byproducts can be used to produce Ethanol. The byproducts of Ethanol production can be used in many other applications.
Now image all this:
US production of Ethanol - 85%
US production of Oil - takes care of 5% of the Gasoline requirement
10 % of Gasoline is still from foreign sources
Combined with Hybrid Electric technology we can create a vehicle that gets 50+ MPG, reduces pollutants by probably 90%, and changes NONE of our infrastructure requirements!
Why hasn't this technology come to the forefront... because for some reason, no one wants to see Ethanol succeed. The oil companies shot down Ethanol in the 80's and Archer Daniels Midland worked out a deal with the oil companies to save itself from bankruptcy due to bad management.
Visit e85fuel.com and see the truth.
Stirling Cycle Engines...? (Score:4, Interesting)
Fast forward many years: Stirling cycle engines are much more efficient (actually, Stirling cycle engines have always been very efficient - some say they have the best efficiency - but they typically had a low hp/big size ratio), smaller - overall just better. There is also a growing awareness of them - look around on the internet and you will find a bunch of sites detailing construction of simple Stirling cycle engines. There is also a company that creates Stirling cycle generators that run on propane.
Basically, what a Stirling cycle engine needs is a "hot" and and "cold" side - it works off of the temperature differential. Most of the test vehicles used a propane burner or something similar to raise the hot plate above ambient temperature. This worked, but was slow to start (because the burner had to fire up and bring the hot plate up to temperature before the engine could turn over). I wonder if maybe there is a different way....
What I am going to describe is something maybe those of you out there with mechanical experience and "gumption" can use to jump start a new project - a "free idea" invention, if you will. If you actually get this thing to work, post it on /. or somewhere, and give me some credit - that's all I ask. Or, perhaps this has already been tried - in that case, don't. I hope at least one person tries, though:
Basically, make your hot plate be a solar collection panel, heating up brine or oil or something, and the cold plate be a "multi-finned" panel on the bottom of the vehicle (think of it as a large heat sink). Put the Stirling engine between them, and use the power of the Sun! The engine could be directly connected to the back wheels, through a transmission, or you could have it drive a generator to run electric motors (with associated regen braking, etc via a capacitor/battery bank). At night, allow it to plug into the wall (or gas line), which drives a heater to keep the engine spinning at low-RPM, thus eliminating the "cold start" startup time.
Another idea, not using Stirling cycle engines, but that same energy differential (hot/cold plates with tubing circulating between) is to use some kind of phase change gas, at pressure - which could drive the engine, plus a compressor. The hot plate would heat the liquid, turn it into gas, which would drive the engine, circulate it through the cold plate, then through a compressor to turn it back into a liquid. I am thinking ammonia, freon, or propane as the working gas, though there may be other safer gasses out there which could be used. The key is the phase change (think of it like a refrigerator running backwards). The engine could then drive the wheels or a generator/motor set like above.
I hope this gets people's brains spinning - such vehicles would be nearly polution free, and would have few moving parts. I would also bet that a prototype could be built using off-the-shelf components, or junk.
Re:Finally! (Score:5, Interesting)
When we went to Detroit for testing at EPA, one of the EPA guys made a comment about those "damn wimpy electric cars". Well we made a bet with him that this car as some power. He said that we could not lay down 1 foot of rubber, we proceed to lay down 25 feet. We failed to mention to him that our "whimpy electric motor" had an output of 650 ft-pounds of torque @ 0 RPM. The dodge viper only has ~450 ft-pounds.
MPG indicators on dashboards (Score:4, Interesting)
I expect we could save the equivalent of all the oil in the ANWR if all cars had instantaneous MPG indicators on the dashboard. I know for one I would be modifying how I drive to run that number UP, and I don't think I am alone.
If that saved just 1% the 20 MILLION barrels of oil per day (per here [att.net]) that the U.S. burns...
Why has this not been done? Would it cost an extra $50 per car? I think that the gasoline savings would more than pay for that over the life of the vehicle.
I own a Toyota Prius (hybrid). It rocks. (Score:4, Interesting)
So why do women buy V8 chevy's? (Score:2, Interesting)
American automobiles as substitute egos. (Score:3, Interesting)
I can't say what it is like where you live, but around here I frequently see other guys in trucks and sports cars peel out past old women as fast as they possibly can, blaring their engine like hell. If that's not trying to make up for a small penis, I don't know what is. At least, that's what my girlfriend frequently states.
FWIW, I've *never* seen a woman try to frighten others on the road as they pass. They don't seem to need nearly as much attention on the road.
Re:Where are the big cars? (or at least mid-sized. (Score:3, Interesting)
The Honda Civic Hybrid would probably work too. And manufacturers are working on various larger hybrids too - but started off small since there were government incentives to do so.
Re:Finally! (Score:3, Interesting)
Hybrids don't have starters, or have rather simplistic ones... the electric motor gets the vehicle moving, and you can cold start the engine once you're in motion just like with a manual (I believe this is how starting the engine is actually implemented on most hybrids).
As for the batteries - they're not expensive. Several other posts have addressed this. The Honda and Toyota models apparantly use standard D-Cell NiMH batteries (although in racks and such). A replacement battery pack for a Honda Insight is only $1000. The battery pack on the Honda Civic is warranteed for 8 years/80k miles.
As for build quality - they're definitely light weight. Weight is the electric motor's enemy. Lots of torque, not a lot of hp.
As for your car review - I certainly don't have the range of experience that couriers do (although I'm sure I could ask around my job and find out, since we have a hundred or so courier companies as clients). I do know that my sister's Honda Accord went 13 years and over 200,000 miles before she accidentally left it out of gear and it rolled off into a tree. She bought another Accord and someone decided to drive on the wrong side of the road and hit her head on. She's going to buy another one once she's recovered from her injuries. But any car can have exceptional data points... shrug.
Re:Finally! (Score:3, Interesting)
I bought a sports car because I wanted something that was truely fun to drive. Something that really DOES go fast and doesn't just look fast, and something that I didn't have to soup up aftermarket just to make it move.
I did my research, read up on specs, test drove a few models, and then based my decision on what I liked and what I could comfortably afford.
Marketing had nothing to do with it.
My decision was a Camaro SS, and oddly enough, I do feel it expresses certain things about my personality. From it's ominous growling LS1 to it's leather interior, some things about my car just feel comfortable to me.
I looked at alternatives, and I decided I didn't like them because, well, they sucked.
If you don't like my car, you certainly don't have to buy one like it. And until someone makes a hybrid that performs like my car (that'll be very long way off I'm betting), I'll stick with my car well on into the years where people are calling it a classic.
Oh, and given the amount of power this car makes, it's fuel consumption is actually pretty damned good, so I have no complaints there.
Just because I didn't buy a small, weak, girly looking import doesn't mean I'm a brainwashed American. It might actually mean I like to enjoy the wide opened roads I get to drive on. For some reason those roads just aren't as much fun in a wimpy car.
Maybe you should take a sports car for a test drive down a curvy back road sometime, then you would understand. Esspecially if you happen to live in a state with some relaxed speed-limits.
Re:Wankel - bladeless turbine is "true" rotary (Score:1, Interesting)