Segway Banned In San Francisco

bhsurfer writes "The city of San Francisco has banned the Segway [CNN.com] from it's sidewalks before they've even arrived. Apparently Santa Cruz, Oakland and San Mateo are considering a ban as well. What a bunch of spoilsports...or are they? Any thoughts on this?" According to the article, hiring high-powered lobbyists may have backfired. but the city claims safety concerns are behind the decision.

Re:Too FAST for pedestrian walkways

[Dark Bard]

The ones being sold to the public have an 8 mph limiting key. The industrial ones had a top speed of 15 mph but aren't meant for streets. The skate boarders and bicycles go faster than that on sidewalks. The are a potential hazard but so are many legal devices.

Wrong!

[sapped]

Pulled from the article on CNN...

Critics say the Segway is a safety hazard on sidewalks because it weighs 69 pounds and travels at up to 12.5 mph

12mph is a little different from the 40mph you were throwing around.

Segway in San Francisco

[polyiguana]

Here's a better column about the whole debate from the San Francisco Chronicle. [sfgate.com] Basically, you have a bunch of uptight people over there, over a technology that hasn't even been used by the public yet. Fortunately, other cities, like Sacramento, are waiting to see whether there are any problems caused first, before acting.

Sidewalks are for

[Anonymous Coward]

Pedestrians... people on foot not shitheads on motorized shit. Wake up assholes, and this is NOT NEWS! Old stuff. If I encounter s Segway rider on the sidewalk and he/she does not give me right of way, they are dead meat! It will only thake a few such incidents to ban them everywhere. Skateboards and inline skates are already banned along with bycicles! Walking people only! SideWALKS. Get it you morons?!?!?!?

Ever Ride One??

[Dan the Control Guy]

I have.. and as strange as it sounds, it is NOT LIKE A VEHICLE. It is an extension of your body. If you hit any obstacle, it automatically stops, and if pressure continues it goes into reverse. It is WAY cool, and I would think a running individual would be more dangerous.

Re:That's Insane...

[Doctor Memory]

I don't understand how the Segway, which weighs 69lbs can be safer than a skateboard, or rollerblades

Um, maybe because it has brakes?

Other Failings

[jhunsake]

The postal carriers are ditching it also (and others who were expected to use it, like policeman, security, etc). A quote from a postal worker in this week's Business Week was "You can't keep warm if you're not walking. You end up frozen like popsicle on a stick." Not a ringing endorsement for those states that are chilly 9 months of the year.

Re:That's Insane...

[Jeffrey Baker]

Hey asshole, here's a tidbit for you: we here in San Francisco don't give a flying handshake if lackwits from Ames, Iowa think Segways are safe. Respect the Federal system, and butt the fuck out.

This measure wasn't something the big, bad government imposed upon us. Local pedestrian and bicycle organizations got together to make sure that the state's insipid redefinition of "pedestrian" to include people on Segways wouldn't fly in this city.

Bikes ARE typically banned on sidewalks.

[Viewsonic]

And give you a hefty $70 fine. Bikes are treated as motorcycles from a law enforcment standpoint. They must abide by all the same laws. No sidewalks, no running red lights, must use turn signals etc. The reason you see so many people ON sidewalks with bikes is because police are typically lax on chasing them down in a lot of areas. But in high pedestrian traffic areas you will see lots of "bike cops" making sure bikers are on the road where they belong.

Re:Too FAST for pedestrian walkways

[Jackazz]

Top speed: 12.5 mph [segway.com]

Human powered top speed: 80.6 mph [recumbents.com]

and after some quick calculations
60/((9.7*16)/60)
Human top speed on foot: 23 mph [cnn.com]

12.5 mph doesn't seem so dangerous to me, it is about 3 times faster than I walk comfortably, and slightly faster than when i jog.

Re:Mopeds?

[Deflatamouse!]

Really? I've lived there 10 years, 1/2 mile from Waikiki, and I've never seen mopeds on the sidewalks *everywhere*. I do ocassionally see groups of tourists with mopeds *on the road*. But I see more mopeds on the University of Hawaii campus than anywhere else. Not on sidewalks either.

Segway specs

[r00zky]

It has different max-speeds (user choosen) which should allow it to drive in sidewalks (8mph sidewalk operation)

IMO banning all innovation for security sake isn't the way to go, REGULATING is.

Maneuvering method: dynamic stabilization--five solid-state, angular-rate-sensing gyroscopes and twin-tilt sensors monitor balance 100 times per second to help the HT compensate for the difference between the rider's body movements, varying terrain, and the direction of gravity
Motors: two (one per wheel) brushless, independent, 2-horsepower DC servo motors and helical gearboxes (24:1 gear ratio); this combination allows motors to spin at a higher, more efficient speed and provides smooth, quiet propulsion
Chassis: aluminum; withstands 7 tons of force
Carrying capacity: 250-pound user
Wheels: glass-reinforced thermoplastic
Tires: tubeless, enhanced-traction, puncture-resistant silica compound
Navigable terrain: pedestrian areas, including streets, sidewalks, grass areas, dirt roads, and hills
Turning radius: 0 (turns within its own footprint)

Maximum speeds: 6 mph (Beginner key), 8 mph (Sidewalk Operation key), 12.5 mph (Open Environment key)

Special mode: Power Assist, which allows powered movement over obstacles, stairs, and ramps when not riding
Platform height: 8 inches (20 cm)
User-controlled features: maximum speed, steering sensitivity, and handlebar height
Display: multicolor backlit LCD, shows battery charge and operating condition
Keys: three electronic, 64-bit encoded keys for Beginner, Sidewalk Operation, and Open Environment performance
Security: encoded keys
Safety: redundant systems
Footprint: 19 by 25 inches (48 by 64 cm)
Weight: 83 pounds (38 kg)
Battery type: two smart-charging, 60-cell NiMH packs
Battery range: 10 miles in good conditions on a single charge, 15 miles under optimal test conditions, and 5 miles average under strenuous conditions (continuous start-stop driving, use on inclines and grassy terrain, etc.)
Recharging method: conventional outlet plug-in, power cord included

Olympic Sprinter?

[dosun88888]

Uh, no. Even if you are confusing a marathoner with a sprinter, the segway is still slower.

12 mph is good for a 5 minute mile, which is about the same as a third-rate high school distance runner.

~D

Banned in Dallas, TX as well.....

[jsimon12]

Buddy of mine is a Dallas Police Officer and he told me that these suckers were basically banned months ago here in Dallas. Namely because they are a danger to pedestrians, 80 lbs piece of metal with a 150+ lbs person jamming down the street at 12+ mph makes for a pretty good accident waiting to happen. Personally I am glad they are banning these things, they are useless and will just make people lazy. If we need anything we need subways in all large cities, and people can just walk between stations, least it will get people off their ever growing butts for a while.

Not in most mainland major citties....

[jsimon12]

As far as I know it is illegal to drive a moped or scooter on most major US city sidewalks. They are considered street vehicles, so it is about the same as driving your car on the sidewalk. Maybe it is different in Hawaii. I would personally rather see no motorized vehicles on the sidewalks, hell bikes should even be there, sidewalks are for people and walking.

Re:I hope they banned bikes on their sidewalks too

[eericson]

No way. They are equally as dangerous as bikes, if not more so (Segways don't have brakes).

Bzzzt. Wrong.

While the Segway doesn't have traditional friction brakes, it does have regenerative braking ala the GM EV1. Essentially when you lean back to brake, the Segway puts the motors in reverse and turns them into generators. Otherwise there'd be not real way to stop a Segway.

Re:Bikes ARE typically banned on sidewalks.

[betis70]

In Palo Alto CA (close to the Segway story cities), bikes are specifically allowed on sidewalks, so check your local ordinances just to be sure.

title misleading

[akb]

The title should include the word "sidewalk" in it. Many posters think that the devices have been banned entirely.

Re:I hope they banned bikes on their sidewalks too

[SubtleNuance]

Bikes belong in the street. There is a political/social movement called Critical Mass [critical-mass.org] that advocates bike-safe streets. ANY city can start a Critical Mass ride, they take place in cities all over the planet on the last friday of the month - AND ITS SUPER FUN!

all thats necessary is a few posters in the bike shops designating a meeting time (city hall, say 19:00) and the group determines the ride based on their mood. Follow the rules of the road, and pass out filers.

Re:100 miles on a segway ht today...

[JordoCrouse]

saved about $582.00+ by using a segway ht

Which leaves me -$4418 in the hole. Yea! I just hope that the whole thing will stay together long enough for me to pay off my loan.

and i've even lost 10lbs with my extra time

Thats not exactly thanks to the Segway, now is it? I mean, you could have exercised instead of making a completely useless website, or trolled Slashdot. I mean, kudos for actually getting on a treadmill, but put the credit where the credit is due. Otherwise, you come off sounding like a Segway salesman.

Of course, if I happened to own a Segway, I would probably lose 10 pounds too, but thats because they would have to amputate my leg after getting frostbite by communting 7 miles in 20 degree weather.

Not that I'm cynical or anything, I'm glad you are enjoying your new toy, its just that I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop in regards to the whole issue.

Re:That's Insane...

[Jeffrey Baker]

Well, I'll explain it for you and all the other lazy ignorant types who lurk around here. The California law defines pedestrian, and it includes any wheelchair when the operator, "by reason of physical disability, is otherwise unable to move about as a pedestrian." The amenedment for Segway was just a giveaway, redefining anyone on a Segway as a pedestrian, which is absurd.

While it may have been a vote to ban

[btempleton]

Remember that prior to this, the default in most cities is that motorized vehicles of any kind (except the powered wheelchairs of the disabled) are not allowed on sidewalks.
In some cases vehicles of any kind are by default banned, usually bikes and often rollerblades and even skateboards.

Segway worked hard to get laws passed to declare their device a special case, not like an ordinary motorized vehicle. Some cities resisted, said, "no, we are not going to make a special exception for your new device. It gets classed like any other motorized vehicle, and as always, it's banned from the sidewalks."

Where Kamen goofed is he got broader laws passed declaring the Segway to not be a vehicle and thus, according to state and national laws IT IS NOT ALLOWED ON THE ROADS. So in places where it is banned on the sidewalk, it is also, unless they say otherwise, also not allowed on the roads either. I don't think this will be enforced, though.

I do agree they should see if the device is a danger before deciding where it should go. But realize that the current default is what SF did. What other cities who are "not banning" it have done is to change their rules to allow this one motorized vehicle on their sidewalks.

The other point of view

[majid]

This article [sfweekly.com] in the SF Weekly gives the other side of the story, and how Segway's high-priced PR effort backfired when a demo smashed into a wall.

I've seen two yuppies (the financial kind) whiz by on the sidewalk in front of my office in downtown San Francisco (so much for "a device that hasn't arrived yet"), and I wholly agree with the ban - these contraptions are a serious hazard to pedestrians. They are wide, have a high center of gravity and are very fast. They will also probably be driven by the same heedless people who burn red lights in their SUVs (I see that happen at least twice a week in SF).

Re:Well consider the momentum aspects of this....

[csimicah]

And perhaps if I run towards a bullet and hit it, I will stop and the bullet will shoot away at 300 mph. Seriously. You can't just assume M2(Vf2) = 0. Remember to conserve energy too. High school physics 1 can be a dangerous thing with no high school physics 2.

Re:liberal contradition AGAIN

[The_dev0]

I don't think it has anything to do with alternative fuels. I work in local government in Australia, (so I can't comment definitively on the laws over there) but there is a huge scary thing that is crippling all government services. It's called Public Liability. This is basically insurance that must be paid in ludicrous amounts incase of an accident, and this massive insurance bill is calculated depending on the perceived risks involved with the activity. This is due solely to people suing the city because they injured themselves, whether they were at fault or not is irrelevant. This is the main reason skateboards and bikes are banned on footpaths, all contruction projects are audited a million times over by safety inspectors and insurance auditors. The days of falling over and twisting your ankle and having the city pay for your bandages are gone. Now they pay for your ambulance, your hospital bills, then they are sued for loss of income, mental anguish, etc. It's fucked up. Nowadays, it costs the city millions being in and out of court for the stupidest things. The segways aren't allowed on footpaths because they are perceived as dangerous, and no city can afford the bullshit that goes along with increased risks on our streets. This, unfortunately, is what you get when you live in a highly litigious society. That's why I reckon they aren't allowed, and I wouldn't be suprised if the same thing happens everywhere. They'll probably be relegated to a situation similar to bicycles, whereas it's cool to ride them on the road or bike paths, but not allowed on footpaths. Can any Americans who have experience with this sort of thing comment on whether the situation is similar for you guys? I would imagine so.

Re:Sidewalks are for

[dbrutus]

The Segway maxes out at 12.5 mph and for sidewalk use, a lower max speed of 8 mph is used. That's a 7 minute mile, well within realistic jogging speed. (info on segway speeds came from the website)

Have your opinions but let's not make the analysis too unrealistic.

BULLITT (1968)

[STREMF]

Bullitt (1968) [imdb.com]

Genre: Action/Crime/Mystery
Tagline: Steeve McQueen as 'Bullitt'

A Great movie and the reason I have always wanted a hunter-green 289 fastback 1968 Ford Mustang

Re:Hello!

[AndroidCat]

You don't really power things with batteries. You store energy in batteries. Where that energy comes from is the telling point.

True, if suddenly power was available from other sources, then the Segway wouldn't be burning dinosaurs .. but I still wouldn't like to share the sidewalk with them.

Being a proper Slashdot reader, I didn't read the link. Did they completely ban Segways, or did they just ban them from sidewalks? If the latter, then possiblities open up! How about Diamond/Segway lanes on roads? Bicycles lanes/paths are common here (Toronto), let's allow Segways on those. Let's keep motor vehicles where they belong (off the sidewalk!), and aid the most eco-friendly. I doubt this is an insurmountable opportunity.

slow cars

[n3k5]

> When cars were introduced, the same thing happened.

No, not really. First cars were going rather slow, just because they didn't have the horsepower to go faster. And although they weren't very severe because of the low speeds and very large (compared to a Segway) vehicles involved, there were many, many accidents because there were no rules, no one had a driver's license and no one knew how to avoid the inherent dangers.

after a while, they implemented clever ideas like traffic lights and stuff.