Cashless Society 661
roomisigloomis writes "France has released "en masse" a new card to replace money. No private information is stored on the card and anybody can use it. Just like cash: you lose it and someone else uses it. Do you think we could be nearing the end of life of paper money?"
Card to card transfers? (Score:4, Insightful)
Otherwise you could only use it at places like stores, where they would have a card reader.
How do I count it? (Score:5, Insightful)
and now, how to NOT hack it (Score:4, Insightful)
If it were free... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not sure.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Paper money has to be carefully studied and then duplicated with painstaking attention to detail.
Someone could just probably figure out how money is "stored" and just keep on replenishing. Note the card is anonymous.
Money might not grow on trees, but it can be created by computer
security concerns? (Score:4, Insightful)
the article did mention card refills, so it would seem the chip on the card is (re)writable.
Low risk of fraud (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:How am I suppose to put this... (Score:5, Insightful)
For instance, if I have a 45 dollar card and I want you to have 5 dollars, can't do it without a transfer machine (or if you forgot your card). With cash easy, assuming I have a five.
And then counterfitting. Wow, if money is only a string of ones and zeros on a card WOO HOOO. So its digitally signed? great I just bought a 100 dollar card and did a bit by bit copy.
Use a central authority, better hope that thing never gets hacked. Use a distributed method - gonna have SEVERE syncing problems (if it is anonymous then you can't just bill me later for the over charge).
As of right now there is not enough incetive for many to hack a system, make it so it is and you will have script kiddies cloning money - yech.
Re:Fatal Flaws (Score:5, Insightful)
The main roblem the I see with this is how does business get done then the system is down / power is out? You wouldn't be able to access the DB that store all of the card information, and therefore wouldn't have any way of verifying if there is money on the card that somebody is using or not.
Re:The End Of Paper Money? (Score:5, Insightful)
"never expires" - it does? thats not what the article says...
"never gets damaged" - all physical currency only exists in a physical and damagable form, paper rips, burns, gets washed... plastic money isn't especially sturdy and who wants to keep massive volumes of coins?
the money card would have a database (physically located in several places across the country/world) which is something physical cash cannot offer - a backup
sounds to me like this money card is just as anonymous, safe from expiry and damage than normal cash....
What about ad-hoc cash transfers? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't see how this is addressed.
(1) What if the babysitter comes to my house and I owe $4.50. Do we both go to the nearest ATM to transfer onto our cards? Will I have a card swipe in my house (most probably not).
(2) The joke about lap dances someone made before my post actually rings true. How does one pay for these kinds of impromptu needs? How do I loan a friend $1 to get a bottle of pop? Do I give them my card to borrow? Would I give them my wallet? Maybe lap dancers will have card swipes strapped on
(3) What about counting your cash? Simply, how do you know how much is on your card without going to an ATM to get a readout?
(4) How do you give the kids a few dollars to shop or grab a bite? How do you give them one dollar to grab candy before the movie starts? Do you give them the entire card? Again, do you give your entire wallet / purse for a need like this?
(5) If a card gets snapped in half, then what? When a paper bill is ripped, a taped one is still legal tender. What about cards?
(6) Can someone run a bulk demagnetizer over my card and financially wipe me out? This is a serious concern, folks.
How are these simple needs addressed? I also like to think that the days of paper money are numbered -- but how are these needs met?
Maybe withdrawing all paper cash $5 and over, converting US dollar bills to a system like Canadian $1 and $2 coins for small change needs? Coins are much more convenient than paper that gets folded, spindled, mutilated, torn, etc.
Don't get it too close to the Speakers... (Score:2, Insightful)
Claimed anonimity is bogus (Score:1, Insightful)
In the real world linkability means that there is zero privacy.
How can this possibly work? (Score:2, Insightful)
If the card's worth were encoded on the magnetic strip itself, it would be a matter of days before someone figures out how to hack the thing and add as much cash as they want to it.
If, on the other hand, the card's worth were stored in some central location, the thing is not anonymous at all. There would be a centralied account somewhere (which necessitates some form of ID number by which people may be tracked), and there's no way guarantee that someone's not keeping track of transactions to and from that account.
I would argue that such a card can be no more anonymous that a standard debit card, which most of us carry today.
Re:You keep all your money in cash? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Fatal Flaws (Score:5, Insightful)
How's that any worse than when someone decides to be an ass and burn your cash? I'd hardly call it a "fatal flaw" since it's no worse than the alternative in that respect.
Would you rather have a system where they can track your purchases, but provides security for your money, or one that protects your anonymity but doesn't guarantee your money? You can't really have it both ways.
CNN's cluelessness (Score:5, Insightful)
Because the basic Moneo card is anonymous, there are no privacy or identity theft concerns.
Regardless of whether the "basic" card is anonymous, it's still clearly possible to track the card's use, and by extension, its user, who has to be identified to obtain the money to begin with.
Step 1) $100 were downloaded from John Smith's bank account to card #12345
Step 2) Card #12345 was just used to purchase $80 worth of pr0n.
Step 3) Bank sends John Smith a bunch of porn-related junk mail.
The retailer might not be able to ascertain John Smith's identity, but the bank most likely could, if it were part of the network.
And the government certainly could. Not familiar with France, but in US translate "could" as "would."
I hope someone can contradict me here. In particular, I'm wondering if there's a way to anonymize Step 1, such that: 1a) $100 is transferred from John Smith's account to a special secure escrow network which is holding money from many pending transfers. 1b) ATM 385 is given authorization to loads up a card with $100. 1c) ATM 385 loads #12345 with $100 drawn from the escrow network. 1d) After transaction is complete, all bank knows is that $100 is gone from John Smith's account and given to ATM 385. All ATM 385 remembers is that it loaded $100 onto card #12345. It doesn't remember the account it was originally taken from. Does this make sense?
Re:Card to card transfers? (Score:2, Insightful)
I suspect there will be a way to do this, but I have a feeling they won't make it easy for us to do so. The leftover change remaining on those prepaid cards is very tempting to the issuing organizations. In France, you already can't get a refund for the leftover change you have in your phone cards.
As consumers, it is important that we don't utilize this mode of paiment until we get this refund/rollover issue guaranteed and clarified.
Re:Why so many different standards? (Score:3, Insightful)
Now the banks are desperately trying to make their cards more popular by *requiring* them for certain transactions. For example, in some cities they have made deals so you can only pay for parking using one of those cards.
I received mine years ago, and I have *never* used it for anything (I haven't even put any money on it). I find normal money is just as (in)convenient, and I do not see any good reason why I should switch to this fake money.
Faking the card (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Doesn't work... (Score:1, Insightful)
Its a smartcard with no transaction cost; full anonaminity and faster then papermoney transactions.
I'm a happy user for some time now :)
SOunds like an ATM. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Claimed anonimity is bogus (Score:1, Insightful)
The question that has been on my mind with regard to this type of system is this one: "what is in it for the banks?" Think about: they would not introduce it without any kind of profit to them.
Do they get to charge extra fees? Can they track your payments? Are they expecting to make money because I will lose it more easily?
So what is in it for the banks? Why are they introducing these systems?
The Killer App (Score:3, Insightful)
They are used for some aplications and there talk to add an age authentication system too them for the purpose of proving you age to cigarette vending machines. There is also talk to intengrate Crypto functionality so that you may digitally sign documents with them.
However in my mind the killer app would be to be able to use them cheaply for micro payments on the internet.
However to be widely accetable these would have to:
a) Be secure virtually - no electronic counterfitting
b) Be anonymous - Imagine Grandma giving the kids some money triggering an automatic I.R.S. audit. Let that happen once and they are out of buisiness
c) Be cheap. Real money is not for free either since there is considerable labor involved in handing out the money, accounting for the cash and buisiness has to buy insurance against theft.
d) Hardware has to be cheap too. By law the electronic signature has been available for years how every no one is using it since the cost of hardware is just too high. However with a cheap mass market reader there is no reason why this should no become as widely available as floppy drives are now (Sorry Mac Fans no pun intended). By the way as if did read that there is nothing TCPA can do which can't be done with a smart card reader, accept selling new hardware since smart card readers can be bought as an upgrade...
Currently there is one big drawback in all of these systems: All of them require the end user to bear most of the cost of deploying them (they have to pay for the class 3 reader and the smartcard), while buisiness saves a lot of money because processing is way cheaper.
Tried and failed in Sweden (Score:3, Insightful)
I think it failed here because of a few simple reasons. People here were actually smart enough to see that a major reason for the banks to try this approach is for them to make more money without any benefit to the customer. Doesn't it sound like a banker's dream? I can hear the banker's going:
- I've got a great idea! We'll make our customers keep all their money - including their cash - in our bank, but we won't pay them any interest on that "CASH"-card.
- Sweet! And why don't we charge them a small fee to obtain the card in the first place?
- They won't know what hit them!
Sure, it sounds great with a cash-less society, but until the system is free to use and has all the advantages of cash, it just won't catch on.
Re:The End Of Paper Money? (Score:5, Insightful)
The anonymity of cash is attractive, definitely. And it's current durability is impressive, and in most countries guaranteed. But really, it's a pain in the ass. You have to finger through your wallet for the right notes and then you invariably receive a bunch of coins that you don't want to carry around.
Wouldn't it be mcuh easier to swipe some card that doesn't require a PIN, doesn't contain any personal info, is as tough as your VISA and doesn't require a phone/data call to some central service?
The black market is the answer to the success (Score:3, Insightful)
e-cash will never take off until people can be 100% sure they can use it in dubious (viewed more or less illegal by the state) activities - like tax evasion, black labour, illegal gambling, drugs, etc.
Money still seems like a safer bet since it can't be backtracked - for a system like this to work they need to be able to see and check the transaction history (lest a Slashdotter will crack the card and start making his own money - thus they need to be able to check and verify all transactions so no "creative" money has arrived on the card).
Re:Card to card transfers? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The End Of Paper Money? (Score:5, Insightful)
For smart-cards, the most up-to-date information about how much money do you have in it sits in the card itself:
If you loose your card you loose the money you have in it. Whoever finds the card can use the money in it. (just like cash)
Also if you damage the chip in the card you loose the money in it. Same as if you burn some dollar bills:
Ease of use of Cash wins out.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Salvation Army Bucket
The bum on the corner
The Hot Dog Cart
Birthday cards
Yard Sales
There are lots of stuff we just drop cash into. Going to a card will make these transactions impossible or too expensive to make it worth your while. Personally, I would not mind having something like this except I already have it....my debit card. If I am making a transaction I don't want the bank to know where I was, I get cash at the ATM. I guess I might be a terrorist if I don't want my bank to know I shopped at Bernie's Pleasure Palace and was buying porn or a marital aide.
Voting (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How much is on my smart card? (Score:3, Insightful)
Great point. The only place I have seen something like this take off is Hong Kong, where the killer app is public transportation.
Once everyone uses them then your argument about always having cash turns around. If you have to carry one of these cards anyway then why not start using it, rather than messing arond with coins and such. Also most vendors actually prefer not to deal with cash (added risk and expense - unlike you they actually have to pay for cash handling services) so once all or most of their customers have these cards they have a strong incentive to start accepting them.
Re:Fatal Flaws (Score:4, Insightful)
Perhaps they could have the tracking optional? Say, you have the option to put your tracking-code on the card so that the balance is kept on the servers. That way if you're worried about losing it you could voluntarily give up your privacy, but if you want it anonymous then you could, but not have any recourse if it gets erased.
Travis
The Balance of Four Problems (Score:2, Insightful)
Digital cash is a terrible mistake:
- You can't loan someone 5 bucks.
- You lose privacy.
- Your card can be duplicated.
- A software or electrical error can wipe out your money.
These points counteract each other; if you attempt to solve one of them, the other problems grow larger.One thing that seems to underlay the digerati's love of digital cash is a lack of understanding about counterfeiting. Falsifying paper currency is difficult
Digital cash, shit!