The Thin Line Between Reality and Video Games 189
Boomzilla writes "San Jose Mercury news is carrying an article about a 2-year-old Silicon Valley start-up called Keyhole and their product Earthviewer. The Mountain View company makes interactive 3-D maps that fuse high-resolution satellite and aerial imagery, elevation data, GPS coordinates, and overlay information about cities and businesses to deliver a streaming, 3D map of the entire globe. Since the start of the war, many news networks have been using the maps to zoom in on, over and around the Iraqi landscape to help viewers see where the war is being fought. Keyhole is financed by Sony Broadband Entertainment, graphics-chip maker Nvidia and others. Keyhole uses satellite images, aerial photos and other data to create 3-D maps that perform much like high-quality video games. Way cool!"
Hope they are doing something new with this tech (Score:2, Funny)
They'll even have to the nerve to use the word "innovative" in the description.
The whole gaming scene is sooooooooooooooooo stale. I used to game a ton and now get ill over the thought.
Re:Hope they are doing something new with this tec (Score:2, Funny)
Stale? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Hope they are doing something new with this tec (Score:1)
I wonder what Johnny Carson would've thought about that fact that that game will probably be designed by the amazing Carmack?
So what has this got to do with gaming ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Earthviewer.com is 2 years old and has nothing to do with gaming, its purpose is merely to serve as a showcase for Nvidia's cards
Re:So what has this got to do with gaming ? (Score:1, Informative)
Yeah right (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yeah right (Score:5, Insightful)
Seeing those marines pinned down really freaked me out. They're regular guys out there with guns trying not to get killed.
So then the tanks come in and start exchanging machine gun fire with the Iraqi soldiers. There was a tremendous amount of sparking and some explosions as they exchanged fire. Then one tank fired it's main gun into a sand berm, and I knew that I was watching a couple of guys die. Same thing a few moments later when another tank put a big hole in a building.
My point?
I think that if even 1 video game developer uses any footage like this as a basis for realism in a game, it'll be a sad day. This stuff is not entertainment. History yes. Fun stuff? Nope. Not by a mile.
Re:Yeah right (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You are an idiot. (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:You are an idiot. (Score:2)
Re:Us developers (Score:2)
And aerodynamics. And astrophysics [badastronomy.com]. And OSes [deakin.edu.au] . And science in general.
And don't even get me started on martial arts flicks.
Would you watch a televised execution? (Score:1)
Jan
Re:Yeah right (Score:1, Insightful)
Damn, that sounds tough. Not even any continues, what about quick saves?
Can't fight a war if the morale sinks, right?
Morale? For whom? If it's soldiers just give morphine and propaganda. If it's the public just give them propaganda, I mean let's face it half of America is on a mix of Valium and Prozac, whilst the rest are fucked on Crack, you don't need extra drugs for them.
Re:Yeah right (Score:1)
Someone's gotta say it (Score:1)
Now that that's over, hopefully we won't worry about the six or so threads that would have resulted without this precautionary measure.
Grand Theft Auto: World (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Someone's gotta say it (Score:2, Interesting)
Not really, the resolution isn't nearly good enough for that. My house was about 15 pixels wide in earthviewer. There was a free trial at nvidia.com, I'm not sure if it's still there. Regardless of that fact, it's still an incredibly cool program. You could type in an address, and it would 'fly' to that location, downloading the pictures it needed as it went (broadband of at least 1mbit is a must for it to be useable). Wh
What does this have to do (Score:5, Insightful)
That makes the who story pointless.
Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
You're thinking like a techie. (Score:5, Insightful)
But that having been said, how hard would it be to add orbital defense satellites. Anyone up for a game of missile command 2k3?
Re:What does this have to do (Score:4, Insightful)
jeff
underlying mathematics... (Score:5, Interesting)
In answer to your question, this has to do with comparing reality and video games in regards to the "fact" (?) that video games are developing better physics engines, and reality is being better modeled by computer simulations, multimedia databases, etc.
Fact of the matter is that, if one wanted to, someone could program the A.I. of a smart missle with the Quake codebase; alternativly, one could easily program a video game which uses satellite photos, networked video feeds, and whatnot...
Anyhow... just my two cents...
Re:underlying mathematics... (Score:1)
Re:underlying mathematics... (Score:1)
Reminded me of something... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Reminded me of something... (Score:3, Funny)
</sarcasm>
Re:Reminded me of something... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Reminded me of something... (Score:2)
Re:Reminded me of something... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Reminded me of something... (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.avatar-me.com/ [avatar-me.com]
Re:Reminded me of something... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Reminded me of something... (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, I can see some perfectly non-violent uses for a FPS map of a school.
-Downloadable 3D map of the school for new students, avoid the first day "What do you mean Room 701 is in Yaroslavl?" problems. Especially useful if the school tends to host events that bring outsiders on campus (Example: local LUG meets at a school. Why not a map where you start in the parking lot, and can walk all around campus, but the room holding the meeting has large lights set up around it to find it.)
-Impressive demonstration that not everyone there is technically illiterate
-Testing a proposed remodeling for appearance and workability
-virtual walkthrough. I can't think of a good term for it, so an example application makes more sense. "Okay, we have real school shooters (or, less violently, a nasty clog in the school bathroom) reported here... and here"
Remember that the FPS has been the only broadly used first-person 3D navigation scheme. VRML was pretty much DOA, so this is the only affordable tool for any application requiring a 3D walkthrough.
Re:Reminded me of something... (Score:3, Interesting)
I have a friend who used the Duke3D engine for a walkthrough of his workplace. He works on large campus with lots of "hidden" bits. He says the walkthrough has been well-received by people who have used it. (Especially since you can still kick the computer monitors!)
There was a Doom map of Trinity College Cambridge (Score:4, Funny)
The best bit was the way the porters' office was full of those hairy monsters who threw fireballs. Beautiful.
Columbine (Score:2)
Never could find them though.
Re:Reminded me of something... (Score:3, Interesting)
heh (Score:5, Interesting)
military games (Score:1, Insightful)
"Homer, if you wouldn't mind shooting some people as you leave."
"Ah, the Denver Broncos..."
Re:military games (Score:5, Interesting)
warning: Anecdotal evidence ahead
One of my friends joined the reserve a few months ago soon after his 18th birthday. In the past we'd frequently played realtime strategy and FPS games. He was really excited about the idea of potentially seeing combat and remarked how it would "be like playing Unreal - for real". I did try to reason with him by pointing out in "Unreal" there is no real-world consequences for failure. If you get shot, you feel no pain, you can't be taken prisoner and if you die - you can just hit the spacebar and come back.
He also liked to play the America's Army game and remarked to me how "realistic" the gameplay was. To which I replied "If it was truly realistic, you couldn't escape/exit/shut the power off to make the game go away and you wouldn't be able to try a mission you died in again. Surely, they left these elements of realism out because they'd be detrimental to the appeal of recruiting."
While I don't believe videogames can make someone who isn't inherently violent become so, I do believe they can potentially satisfy a craving for violence in those who already possess the disposition.
I originally thought violent videogames had potential to be harmful due to the inaccurate depiction of the aftermath of violence, but after talking to my friend upon his return from basic training, I realized the army basically uses the same techniques to train soldiers. During the assult course my friend went though, no one was killed or injured. He didn't see his friends drop dead at his side, he didn't get shot or have to take the life of an enemy by means of lethal force. His training was exactly like playing Unreal for real - it taught him nothing about real war.
Re:military games (Score:1)
R&R Software... (Score:5, Interesting)
The original concept of the game designer was to offer GIS-detailed maps for the 50 mile x 50 mile area around the main game sites. With the software he is using to create the maps, he can produce
Player : GM, can we see that [mountain | cave | valley | battlefield] from here?
GM : Let me fire up the map viewer, and then you can answer that question for yourself.
Imagine being able to see maps and "dragon's eye views" of different areas of a gaming map. The idea sounds neat, and I think that he is going into playtesting.
Re:R&R Software... (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, hang on...
Since the war.... (Score:2)
Has this company gone public?
This is great! (Score:1)
Re:This is great! (Score:2, Informative)
As for elevation, you're correct that SRTM isn't usable yet. Keyhole simply doesn't have better than the usual free 1km elevation data outside the USA. And 1km looks as bad as you might think.
For those who care, see the review of EarthViewer 3D [vterrain.org] that i wrote last year. I don't believe much has changed except the price dropping
Interesting... (Score:3, Funny)
This new learning amazes me! Tell me again how high-resolution images and other data may be employed to create 3D mapsof the entire globe.
Re:Interesting... (Score:2, Funny)
Theories (Score:4, Interesting)
Some crackpots have theories that god plays videogames that we are characters in. If so, then now we get to see what his monitor looks like!
But what does the load screen look like then?
Noah / Flood = BSOD? (Score:1)
Was the great flood truly a "Blue Screen of Death?" (snicker)
Re:Noah / Flood = BSOD? (Score:1)
It's obvious that God just got bored and went to the "disasters" menu. Granted, his menu seems to have a lot of cooler options than what is available to us in SimCity, but we'll get there one day.
Re:Noah / Flood = BSOD? (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, I wouldn't want to be on the Programming team for that... I might get smote!
3D? Umm, yeah... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:3D? Umm, yeah... (Score:2)
If you have a Nvidia card, you're still looking at around $60 a year for a dumbed-down version without elevation data.
It's a neat product, but of limited use at the present time.
A more interesting (and worth-paying-for) modification along the same lines would be to have an interactive news/screensaver type program.
How a
Re:3D? Umm, yeah... (Score:2)
I've installed it too. It's not immediately apparent, but there are quite a few 3D elements to this app. 1st, you can turn on elevation mapping where you see the terrain elevation. 2nd there is a control that lets you control your angle of view, combined with the eleveation mapping it's a pretty damn cool effect.
Ever since I installed it on my dad's computer he's be
Link for nvidia users (Score:5, Informative)
http://download.nvidia.com/downloads/EarthViewe
Re:Link for nvidia users (Score:1)
Re:Link for nvidia users (Score:1, Informative)
Neal Stephenson and Snow Crash (Score:5, Interesting)
Then again, the software has been around for a while. I wonder if the people who wrote it got the idea out of Snow Crash?
All I wanna know is, where is Hiro, and who is playing the part of Raven?
Thin Line (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Thin Line (Score:2)
2 weeks then you'll erase it (Score:5, Interesting)
The images produced are amazing, but after you get through seeing your house, grandma's house, cousins house, freinds houses, your work, all from the air it kind of get's boring.
The user level version produces some good maps, but if you're really interested in earthviewer, you should sign up for the corporate trial. Even though all the images produced from the corporate trial have a watermark of keyholes logo on them, the detail is just too good to pass up.
Despite all the video game talk. . . (Score:5, Interesting)
I played with Earthviewer about a year ago, and it's definitely cool, but I think you'd have to change it too fundamentally to get it to work with gaming. Quake engines and such are really much more optimized for presenting textures in the fast real time need for games, and Flight Sim already does some this style of progressive resolution depending on your point of view and zoom level.
For me the real difference is how well it integrates with huge databases. It seems as though Keyhole's strength is in being what they call a "streaming geospatial browser." A potential front end for every database with topographical hooks. A big (waay big) market in situations where visual representation of that data is important.
I'd like to hear more input on the "eye candy" arguement though - that being able to visually browse this data has limited value when compared to the cost of enabling it with the viewer. TV and flyovers are cool, but are there concrete applications where this style of presentation will help people get insight into data? Remember that we can still look at large data sets in 2D and in static 3D - does it help to be able to fly over it and zoom down in real time?
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Re:Despite all the video game talk. . . (Score:2)
It is extremely difficult to on-the-fly convert to BSP format, but octtree mappings should be pretty straightforward, even when you're drawing data on the fly from a fat old database.
Re:Despite all the video game talk. . . (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Despite all the video game talk. . . (Score:2)
Satellite imagery (Score:4, Interesting)
FYI the US spy satellite range is the Keyhole Series [howstuffworks.com]. Has been taking pictures of our earth for more than 30 years.
Tho a lot isnt know about current generation (or even the past 2 generations), the US has released [space.com] older footage.
CNN, elevation data, 3D (Score:5, Interesting)
They've been using Earthviewer on CNN several times a day in the last few days. The current version of the client supports elevation data, USA yellow page searches (show me all the Taco Bells), street address searching, and cool image overlays that are being used on http://bbs.earthviewer.com to show weather, archeology, and battle movements in Iraq.
With the elevation data its very much 3D, but most man-made structures don't register (except Hoover dam).
An old idea (Score:4, Interesting)
Both skylinesoft.com, and before them mobilemaps.com have worked on something similar. The mobilemaps 3D viewer was available in 1996! It was at VGA resolution, fit in 640K, and ran a lightening speed fractal landscape engine, along with web hyperlinks.
3D maps is an interesting market, because users expect reality from these maps and do not understand the limitations of the data, and why it doesn't look like real-life. One interesting application mobilemaps tried was mapping ski resorts, which attracted reasonable interest.
Mobilemaps, has since moved away from 3D maps to focus on providing an open-source search & locate engine that can be combined with 2D or 3D maps.
A False View of Reality? (Score:5, Insightful)
Despite best efforts, slabs of raw data will be out of date. Details such as the exact form of foliage would have to be filled in by an 'educated guess'. Are sensitive military facilities accurately mapped?
What indication is there to the user that the information they are viewing may not be completely accurate? How can a user judge the accuracy of each part of the scene they are viewing?
I see a danger that ultra-realistic, inaccurate, renderings may widely replace real world observations, leading to a reduction in available information, even though the volume of misinformation has increased.
Re:A False View of Reality? (Score:2)
You can buy images on the open market of almost anywhere in the world. Ironicly enough, images of the U.S. are easier to find and aquire for cheap than anywhere else in the world.
(Yes, the data may be filtered if key locations are of interest. think Area 51 for instance. Although there are images released from there as well.)
Re:A False View of Reality? (Score:4, Interesting)
When I was a cadet, the maps we used were accurate enough that individual trees in a forest were correctly represented, you could even take bearings off them for navigation (altho' if possible we used more permanent structures!). I once won an orienteering competition by literally leading my squad from tree to tree while the other squads messed around looking for traditional landmarks.
leading to a reduction in available information, even though the volume of misinformation has increased.
That's a very real problem. Observe how all the 24-hr news channels are filling their programmes with exactly the same stuff, even tho' the reality seems to be "not much has changed in the last 12 hrs".
SGI had a similar globe demo like that... (Score:5, Informative)
On the PC side of things I would imagine this is now possible on a much smaller budget. High-end PCs finally have the gfx and I/O thruput (8x AGP and PCI-X, for example) to pipe the texture data fast enough.
Keep blurring that line, it makes the games more impressive and gives even more possibilities for real world applications.
Re:SGI had a similar globe demo like that... (Score:1)
Tried this (Score:1)
A worse blurring of gaming vs. reality.. (Score:5, Funny)
Yesterday, I put it on the car CD player and accidentally ran down a moped and three pedestrians before I realised I wasn't playing the game.
Re:A worse blurring of gaming vs. reality.. (Score:2)
Yesterday, I put it on the car CD player and accidentally ran down a moped and three pedestrians before I realised I wasn't playing the game.
Heh. At least you didn't punt a moped guy into a cop.
This sounds kind of familiar... (Score:1)
games have been used before for war before (Score:4, Interesting)
btw, now the U.S. Army is contributing to the development of Steel Beasts 2.
Similar 3D stuff (Score:5, Interesting)
We've been developing a couple of similar products for several years now. GenesisII attempts to create photorealistic images based on GIS data, and Landscape Explorer is a more traditional 'Image Overlay' product (there's also an online embedded ActiveX version). Site is at www.geomantics.com [geomantics.com]
Both these programs are intended to take a 'feed the data in and get the image' type of approach rather than the 'build your world from blocks' approach you'd get with a 3D modeller application.
With the 'Image Overlay' program this is relatively straightforward because the data is not that complex, but when you go for something more detailed and 'photorealistic' like GenesisII then complexity of the solution seems to increase exponentially with the degree of detail needed. For example modelling a mid to far distance mid-western US landscape is actually quite easy, doing it in Europe is vastly more complex because of something as apparently simple as the hedgerow and field pattern. Similarly really high mountains (Rockies, Himalaya) are easy, Mid range stuff with confirers is not too bad, but the real challenge is the English Cotswalds because of the shear complexity of a 3,000 year old mixed deciduous forest/farmed/grazed landscape.
Even with Satellite data the problems on landscape are complex. Sure I can tell it's a forest, but is it Oak or Birch? It may not matter if I'm viewing from a long shot, but closer up it does. How do I tell? get better data? (available, expense), guess (ok for games maybe, but it's not reality), or use an algorithm (you have an tree/soil/landscape distribution algorithm to hand?)
And that's before we've even considered villages and towns
/.'d (Score:4, Funny)
A similar program (Score:1)
Detail level (Score:4, Informative)
The level of detail varies with the region. The last time I checked out the program like a year ago it had extremely detailed maps for most regions of the US, Japan, and Afghanistan. The maps weren't updated in real time though.
Business model in the new millenium (Score:1)
their servers... (Score:2)
As long as we can distinguish movies (Score:2)
Resolution Varies (Score:2)
whoa - I just wished this (Score:2, Funny)
had I know I'd be getting that wish granted, I'd have instead wished for Naomi Watts.
This sort of visualization is easy (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:This sort of visualization is easy (Score:2)
For example, the UK Ordnance Survey recently 'withdrew' it's 50 metre DEM data and replaced it by a more complex product at 14 times the price (yes 14!).
Cha-ching! (Score:1)
Thin Line Not New (Score:1)
Geography lesson for Americans. (Score:5, Funny)
Now, enter Bagdad in the place box and watch as you fly out over the Altlantic, past Europe and down into the Middle East.
Without a doubt Earthviewer is the greatest teacher of Where The Fuck These Places Are!!!
Interesting name....Keyhole (Score:1)
Mod Points? (Score:2)
Can we just moderate this whole story as redundant?
Good resources to do this (Score:2)
vterrain [vterrain.org]
Naturally, this includes links to the NASA Blue Marble site and the SRTM project and many others. :-)
My own viewer isn't due for some time yet
Al Gore Invented It! (Really) (Score:2)
Speech text, 1998 [bakersfield.ca.us]
www.digitalearth.gov website [digitalearth.gov]
CNN article on the satellite version [cnn.com]
NASA Triana Funding in Doubt [space.com]
Triana built, mothballed waiting potential future launch [nasa.gov]
I suspect this was probably discussed in Slashdot ba
Other Earth Viewers (Score:2)
Talk
- DARPA project, some good stuff.
Re:See the pictures of dead American soldiers (Score:1)
Re:Fucking retards! (Score:1)
Re:the thin line? (Score:2)
Seriously, the gaming industry continues to blur that line and while I agree that we need to keep a clear distinction between the two, I think we'll see games that are very difficult to distiguish from reality in the forseeable future. Consider The Matrix, Thirteenth Floor, and especially, eXistenZ [movieweb.com], for some ideas on what might happen as the lines gets thinner..