Firebird Name Debate Enters a New Stage

An anonymous reader writes "As many readers will know, mozilla.org was asked to change the name for their standalone browser, Phoenix as another browser had the same name. After months of discussion, the new name was announced as Mozilla Firebird. Despite the new name being approved by AOL Legal, supporters of the FirebirdSQL database were quick to object (though the name is also used by many other people). A coincidentally named supporter of FirebirdSQL, IBPhoenix, put up a slightly immature request for their readers to participate in mass posting campaign targetting mozilla.org developers' email accounts, newsgroups and even forums at independent sites such as MozillaZine and Slashdot. FirebirdSQL's official site later reiterated this message. However, IBPhoenix have now declared this shock-and-awe stage of their campaign over, heralding it a success. Their second stage calls for a more focussed email protest at just two of mozilla.org's members: Mitchell Baker (mozilla.org's leader) and Asa Dotzler (announcer of the name change). In addition, they ask their readers to move away from 'derogatory messages' and to show more 'courtesy'. Unsurprisingly, the beleaguered admins of affected sites such as MozillaZine have welcomed this change of direction. This is getting very interesting!"

"Interesting" My Foot

[Anonymous Coward]

This shows how hostile some members of the OSS crowd can be over something so simple as a name.

This is the same crowd that gets excited when corporations try to take domain names from people who have had them for years. Using this same logic, shouldn't Mozilla switch their name since FirebirdSQL used it first? Prior art and all...

This kind of petty (it's just a name), inmature (flooding people's e-mail), public arguing is one of the reasons Linux isn't getting the acceptance it should.

Shock and Awe?

[Jason1729]

If it were my choice, the childish email campaign would just make me more determined to keep the firebird name. Sending offensive messages to people who have nothing to do with the name change is no way to get things done. Maybe AOL can send it's lawyers after IBPhoenix for DoSing them. They can easily show damages in lost developer time deleting the messages and extra load on their mail server.

Jason
ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]

One Man's Opinion

[BurritoWarrior]

I do not think that the Moz team should use Phoenix. Even though it probably passses a legal litmus test, as they are very different products, that doesn't mean they should continue to use it.

I think it would be nice to show some respect to another open source project which precedes yours. I am sure that if the database guys called their product MozillaDatabase, the Mozilla team wouldn't be very happy, and I am sure there would be an outcry on Slashdot. Or better yet, how about Microsoft changes one of their product to the name Phoenix. How about instead of MSN Messenger they call it MSN Firebird? Would everyone here tell the Firebird/Moz team to "quit crying"?

I guess the summary is, just play nice with others and change the name out of courtesy for others.

Open source politics?

[Blaine Hilton]

This seems more then anything to be nothing but open-source politics. People should spend more time coding better software then arguing about the names of that software.

Go Calculate Something [webcalc.net]

Non-story

[Anonymous Coward]

The use of the name in this case is non-confusing and the SQL people with their database have no basis for interfering with the Mozilla people and their specialty browser. The only reason Phoenix had trouble was that the BIOS maker also had actual browser functionality being marketed under the Phoenix name. This sameness does not apply in the case of FireBird. To conclude, someone should bitch-slap these children for running a spam campaign to annoy one group of open-source programmers to change their non-similar project's name. What would be appropriate at this stage is if the SQL folks would give up their name as contrition for their inappropriate steps.

"With my last breath, I stab at thee"

[Anonymous Coward]

"Despite the new name being approved by AOL Legal, supporters of the FirebirdSQL database were quick to object (though the name is also used by many other people). A coincidentally named supporter of FirebirdSQL, IBPhoenix, put up a slightly immature request for their readers to participate in mass posting campaign targetting mozilla.org developers' email accounts, newsgroups and even forums at independent sites such as MozillaZine and Slashdot. FirebirdSQL's official site later reiterated this message. However, IBPhoenix have now declared this shock-and-awe stage of their campaign over, heralding it a success. "

Sounds similiar to tactics we hear around here, when it's a company or person we don't agree with. How many times have we heard "everyone E-mail them" or we're going to "/." their site?

Sounds like bad karma coming home to roost.

Just going to have to make up a word

[gaminRey]

This is the problem with using a word from any established language. No matter what you choose, it is very likely that someone, somewhere is already using it, and won't like you using it. This is even more likely to happen if you use a word that has some kind of "coolness" or "geek" factor. This of course is not to say I think the name Firebird is at all interesting. In fact, it just doesn't roll off the tongue well enough for me use it. As for me and my house, we shall use "phoenix" unless someone gives me good reason to do otherwise.

It's a moot point.

[Ambiguous Coward]

It's all foolish. If they called it FirebirdSQL, that would be one thing. But the word "firebird" is still free use. Just like how we can stil call windows windows, even though Microsoft would probably try to claim otherwise, given the chance. But, since you can't claim a word like that as your own, we have windows, instead of "transparent-but-solid wall portals." Same goes for firebird. Besides, it also helps that they're different products. You can legally claim it as infringement if they name their product the same (or similar) to yours *if* it's the same (or similar) product. But, in this case, they aren't the same (nor similar). Nobody will confuse the two. They can call it firebird if they want to.

This is very childish.

[blaqsun]

I think it's really telling how healthy a community is when all they manage to do is spend time and energy flaming and mailbombing one another regarding a project's name. Couldn't they be coding instead?

Re:Why complain this way?

[wadetemp]

I find it hard to believe that this is how adults react in such a situation?

Do you live on the same planet I do? Here on Terra the reaction of adults is wholely unpredictable. Myself included. Of course a database and a browser are the same. Let us send our nasty Terran rage mail in peace please.

Ok, here's the thing

[Sycraft-fu]

First, minor correction they are chainging it FROM Phoenix (to Firebird) not TO Phoenix.

Now, the real thing is that people need to stop getting to damn defensive over names. The browser Phoenix had a legitimate beef, I mean you have two browsers of the same name. That is really confusing. However the SQL Firebird people need to sit down and shut up.

Firebird is NOT an orignal name by any strech of the imagination. I can easily name one Firebird that predates both of them: the Pontiac Firebird (a car). When you pick a popular name, you need to be prepared for other people to use it as well. Also, if you aren't the first to use it, you certianly have no right ot bitch when someone else picks it up as well.

Like I said, the Phoenix browser had a legit complaint. Here you had two of the same kind of product named the same thing. I can gaurentee GMC would raise hell if Chrysler introduced the Dodge Firebird car. However they won't mind about either the database or browser, as they are clearly different products.

Hell, the same is true of Phoenix. In additon to being a mythical bird, it is also the name of the captial city of the state Arizona. I bet if you talk to most people and ask what they associate Phoenix with, it will be the mythical bird or the city, not the browser. It is not an orignal name and the city of Phoenix will not be screaming at the browser to change its name as most people can tell the difference.

Unless you have a truly orignal name you really can't whine about people in unrelated fields using it too. After all, you borrowed it from somewhere else. Even if you do think up an orignal name (which Firebird is not) you still can't really complain if someone with an unrelated product uses it. After all, what is the harm? No one will confuse the two since they are different.

However, so long as there are other, older Firebirds than the database, these people are just being whiny with no good reason.

Open Source Psychology

[Farley Mullet]

One of the terms that often gets thrown around when discussing open source software is the "Open Source Community", and I suspect that one of the most important features of this community is the recognition that is accorded to developers, so project names take on a special significance in the OSS community, almost paralleling their significance in the world of commercial software. In the world of commercial software names are important for marketing purposes, while in the open source world, project names are important because of the cachet value that having your name associated with a project brings. So just as a commercial product named x would suffer adverse effects if a dominant company were to name their product x, so does Firebird-the-database when the second-or-third most successful OSS project (behind the Linux kernel and maybe apache) decides to take the name Firebird-the-browser.

Having said that, this all seems pretty silly, and it occurs to me that mass mailing campaigns aren't the mature way to deal with this, even if egos are involved. If this were a commercial situation (if the lawyers weren't involved) a mutually beneficial solution would be negotiated between the grown-ups running the two projects. It seems to me that this is the best course of action in this case as well.

-----

posted while drunk-as-in-bourbon.

Sheer Pointlessness

[Wtcher]

Trying to trademark the name "Firebird" is like trying to trademark the word "Sky" or the word "Video". Some of these SQL guys seem to have way too much time on their hands and I think they should relax - as someone else as said, they /are/ getting free publicity... and it really isn't as if the browser folk were creating another database. Personally, I was quite enamoured with the name Phoenix.

Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens all the time in the business world. >_< The new thing, though, was the e-mail campaign - seems a tad childish because it needlessly makes it more difficult for the developers to keep up with other mail. The least they could've done was simply meet with eachother cordially.

Re:The new name

[lvdrproject]

I agree. It's just so much water under the bridge now, so there's no point trying to get people to agree with me or anything, but i absolutely hate the new names that've been chosen for the various Mozilla-based browsers. "Chimera", i think, was an excellent name for a browser, and "Camino" or whatever it is now, is retarded. And "Firebird"? How generic can you get? That name has been used for EVERYTHING.

Anyway, if everybody is going to be as childish and immature as these FirebirdSQL jack-asses are, they should probably just change the names of all of their browsers to some random number, or a code, or something. Maybe then people won't kick and stomp about it.

"5047bc596a4bab2dc7f7c120bb22dec5" has a nice ring to it, don't you think?

Are we missing the point?

[baudtender]

Anyone who knows the recent history of how
Interbase became Firebird appreciates just how
wretched and bloody and ugly the final months
were before it became open source. There were
folks fighting tooth and nail to give this
incredible product a fighting chance, and I have
nothing but respect for what they have achieved.
If you spend a couple of hours really, seriously
researching what this product offers, you'll
not only wonder how Borland could mismanage it
as badly as they did, but also wonder why MySQL
and PostgreSQL get so much press without being
mentioned as an afterthought. If only a tenth
of the resources were placed into Firebird as
are placed into PostgreSQL, I seriously wonder
if PostgreSQL wouldn't be largely abandoned
within the next two years.

This is a story about a beat up and exhausted
small group of core supporters coming up with a
name, and then, a year and some months later,
just as they're really starting to get the code
base they inherited under control and figured
out, a much bigger and well known crew picks
that same name. It isn't that the Mozilla team
couldn't keep the Firebird name - it's that they
shouldn't. It isn't that anyone will confuse
a web browser with a RDBMS, it's that it's a
completely unnecessary risk that anyone could.

It's about essential respect in the open source
community. The Mozilla crew could win this
argument, partly based on sheer inertia, partly
based on beleaguered opponents mounting an
ineffectual fight, and partly based on the
relative resources.

But they shouldn't. And to anyone who spends any
time at all researching the issue, the Mozilla
group is clearly engaging in "friendly fire."

I deeply respect both of these projects. It's
time for both sides to raise the bar on what it
means to fight for a common cause.

Baudtender

Re:"Interesting" My Foot

[AugustMoon]

This kind of petty (it's just a name), inmature (flooding people's e-mail), public arguing is one of the reasons Linux isn't getting the acceptance it should. While I agree tactless spamming public forums and private email boxes is a bit immature, I think protecting your name is not petty at all. In the open source world what other sense of identity do you have but your name? There is no company affiliated with these products. "Internet Explorer" is still "Microsoft's Browser" but Mozilla, FirebirdSQL, and IBPhoenix are the only sources of identity and market presense these groups have. As for the public arguing, I think it would be worse if one group just rolled over for another. And I doubt this affects open source's PR negatively. There is bound to be some conflict at times. Mike

Re:"Interesting" My Foot

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Using this same logic, shouldn't Mozilla switch their name since FirebirdSQL used it first? Prior art and all...

Using this same logic, shouldn't FirebirdSQL switch their name since Pontiac used it first? Prior art and all...

Re:Why complain this way?

[Kircle]

I find it hard to believe that this is how adults react in such a situation?

They might be five year olds trapped in a man's body. :-)

I have a question...

[Znonymous Coward]

Why not just call it Mozilla 2.0? Thats what is really is, the next major release of mozilla.

Just a thought.

Re:"Interesting" My Foot

[RajivSLK]

This kind of petty (it's just a name), inmature (flooding people's e-mail), public arguing is one of the reasons Linux isn't getting the acceptance it should.

Why do people feel the need to drag Linux into every OSS related spectacle?

This issue has absolutely nothing to do with Linux. Stop trying to drag every OSS project under one big Linux umbrella.

(P.S. For everyone reading please don't reply regarding the acceptance of Linux and Mod this obvoius troll down.)

Re:Just going to have to make up a word

[yuri]

So, basically Phoenix changed it's name from one that is already taken by a BIOS Maker that can sue, to the name of another OSS product that can't.

Its not a legal matter as far as I'm concerned. Comes down to fact that AOL staff didn't have the imagination to think up a name of their own. So they took one that they know they can stomp all over and make it theirs.

Is this the respect different OSS projects show each other, or only when they are actually heartless multinationals is disguise.

Re:Non-story

[GlowStars]

The use of the name in this case is non-confusing

Because you say so? Heck, a lot of people are very likely to install both products if for example they develop a 3-tier Application with Firebird as backend SQL server and testing the web-tier with Mozilla the browser.

Even naming the RPMs of both products non-confusing would be a challenge.

Re:The new name

[theedge318]

I would encourage people to send rational requests to the people at IBPhoenix. ([e-mail] [mailto]) However I will admit that Trademarks are usually applied to an industry, and thus since both are in the computer industry, their is a debatable question. McDonald's can't complain about Jim McDonald's auto repair, but they can sue Bob McDonald's cookie stand.
Below is the email I sent, outlining three points:

1. They never objected to Mozilla's use of the Phoenix name
2. They have failed to properly defend their copyrights/trademarks because they fail to properly demarkate any instances of Phoenix or Firebird on their website as being copyrighted or trademarked
3. Pointing out the obvious fact: Pontiac had the name Firebird name first, and they have real legal clout to defend the trademark, but as the industries are different they know not to even bother

Your requests to Mozilla that they manhandled they name change of their
browser, from Phoenix to Firebird is totally uncalled for and
inappropriate.

1. As far as I have been made aware, you had never objected to the use of
the Phoenix name for the browser, yet now they change to Firebird you
decide to find objection. You have a stake in both the Firebird and
Phoenix name, yet you only object to the use of one?

2. You have no claim to the Trademark or copyright for EITHER Firebird or
Phoenix. I have browsed several pages of your site, and find no instances
of "(tm)" "trademark" "copyright" or "(c)" (done with the appropriate
circle) claiming either the Firebird or Phoenix name to be your
own. Those are most definitely required to defend/protect a
copyright/trademark

3. You are not in the browser business, so you can't claim a total
hold on the "Firebird" name ... although I will admit your are
both in the same industry(software) thus making the issue
debatable.

I would have hoped that you would have attempted a more rational discourse
with the members of the Mozilla/Firebird Project. As you have no
corresponding emails/letters/documenation or phone calls to corroborate
your claim of legal strong arming, I can only determine that a complete
rational discourse was not followed to fruition. If there was instances
of "Redmondesque" strong-arming tactics, I would strongly encourage you to
report dates/times/content of ALL communication you have with members of
the Mozilla/Firebird Project.

Thank you for your time ... I hope this is resolved in a manner amicable
to all ... Also thank you to both sides for your wonderful contributions
to free/open source (whatever your religion may be)

FirebirdSQL

[MCZapf]

It's called FirebirdSQL. Who's going to confuse that with the web browser Firebird?

Re:Non-story

[fishbert42]

"...the SQL people with their database have no basis for interfering with the Mozilla people and their specialty browser."

Actually, I think they do have a basis for interfering...
The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that the SQL people are mostly making all this fuss to get the massive amounts (relatively speaking here, folks) of free publicity for their project. I'd never heard of them until this Mozilla Phoenix/Firebird mess, so I guess it must be working.

Re:Non-story

[Selanit]

There are two issues at hand here: legality and politeness. It is certainly legal for mozilla.org to choose and use the name Firebird for their browser -- it is indeed difficult to confuse a browser for a SQL server. It was also, however, impolite of them to do so without even taking the time to send an email to the FirbirdSQL people saying "Hey, we'd like to call our browser Firebird. You cool with that?" After all, it's not as if there's no similarity between the projects. They do different things, sure, but they're both open source, they're both computer programs, and sometimes you use a browser to access a SQL database. Fairly often, in fact.

And don't tell me that the name-choosers were unaware of the SQL project. It took them, what, four months to pick this name? Or was it five? Five and a half? And in all that time, these inveterate computer geeks never even typed the word into Google? [google.com] (As of this writing, the FirebirdSQL project still tops the list of results for that search.)

It's not as though there's no precedent for two OSS projects to share a name. Look at Gentoo the Linux distro [gentoo.org] and Gentoo the file manager. [obsession.se] At the very bottom of that second link you'll find a little note from the developer of the file manager saying "Gentoo the Linux distribution has nothing to do with gentoo the file manager, except the latter runs on the former. I actually used the name first, way back in September 1998. I've been in touch with the Gentoo folks, and we're cool."

So, ultimately, the parent post is only partially right: the legality of this move is a non-story. The story lies in the fact that the name change was made in an impolite way, apparently without any attempt to contact the FirebirdSQL group at all. Would it really have been so hard to have sent that email? They could even have exchanged reciprocal links, so that anybody who did get confused would easily be set straight. In the initial announcement [mozillazine.org] of the name on the MozillaZine forums, Asa Dotzler (sp?) wrapped up with the words "Hopefully this will be the end of naming legal issues for a while." Well, he got his wish -- about the legal part, anyway.

Re:Why bother to take another projects name?

[surprise_audit]

After reading Mark's comments I have to say I think all his points are good ones. There will certainly be an adverse effect on web search engines, and there will certainly be a lot of time wasted on both sides redirecting people to the other project.

FWIW, I'd say that the the folks causing the collision should be backing up and apologising. Mozilla Firebird hasn't had very long to become entrenched in the public awareness and it wouldn't be too great a hardship for them to suck it up and switch again. There have been plenty of good suggestions made here. Is Mozilla Firebird so radically different that it couldn't be called Mozilla2.0??

flame on!

Re:Why bother to take another projects name?

[mark.odonohue]

Users are fickle creatures. They don't know where their browsers come from and you could be on the phone giving directions, and we are both downloadable software projects.

When even a search for "firebird" & "download" will give both moz and fb download results I can see it will cause confusion.

It just seems to me, that with a bit of foresight, moz could have avoided this problem for both of us.

Mark

Who cares?

[darnok]

First, we're talking about a browser and a database. They're hardly interchangeable.

I never really stopped to consider I was using "Mozilla" even though it's obviously derived from crappy Japanese movies, or "Phoenix" with its "born from the ashes" undertones; if they'd been called "Cuttlefish" and "Rob Schneider", I wouldn't have cared less.

Since it seems to have come along later, change the name of the damn browser and let's get on with life. If there's some mysterious proof that the browser came along before the database, change the name of the database.

If they'd been called "Lilo" and "Stitch", everyone would have been up in arms if/when Disney came along with a "cease and desist" note. They're not; it's all OSS, so let's all get along nicely like good anarchists should.

Re:Why bother to take another projects name?

[mark.odonohue]

Why do you even post at all ?

Because Im hoping some sense of decency will be awakened in the mozilla team, and they will recind their decision.

Firebird SQL's name is now totally rotten due to IBPHOENIX .

Unfortunately I think your right, the "high moral ground" and judgement at the click of a button, on this issue will create enough fog, and distract people from the predicament that this situation places the firebird project in.

Asking nicely should have been done in the first place, followed by asking for Slashdot opinion may generate support.

Actually a polite discussion from moz prior to publication, or even a period of public comment before using the firebird name could also have helped avoid this mess. That and the "I've checked it with the AOL lawyers, it's legal it's over" attitude really annoyed a lot of our users/developers.

Too bad Firebird SQL.
Another one bites the dust?

Yes and with it a sh*tload of hard work by a lot of people under hard conditions goes down the drain as well.

Mark

Re:"Interesting" My Foot

[bmj]

This issue has absolutely nothing to do with Linux. Stop trying to drag every OSS project under one big Linux umbrella.

Well, if you're involved in the OSS community, then you know this has nothing to do with linux. But for any manager that might get wind of this *discussion*, they WILL associate it with linux. For most people outside the tech industry, OSS == linux. This will give OSS and linux a bit of a bad of name if the pointy-haired types read about it.

Re:Why bother to take another projects name?

[Anonymous Coward]

The firebird team, to me, come across as immature drama queens over their behaviour and handling of this issue.

I'd never heard of firebird before, and I do make use of relational databases for my job. The way that I've heard of it now means I'd be reluctant to use it due to the attitude of the team members over this issue. I wouldn't have faith using a project run by people who react this way. Regardless of how the Mozilla team have or haven't behaved, there is no call for asking for the sort of mass mailing you did in the way you did at this point.

If you'd organised a petition amongst your users, published that, got publicity of it, mailed the petition to mozilla, not resorted to effectively calling for mass mailing of lots of the mozilla team, then the issue would have been raised and you wouldn't have looked like petty idiots.

If the Mozilla team were that aware of your product (I can easily believe they weren't) and its name, then they do seem to have not thought through the potential problems due to name conflict. I don't think the conflicts are going to be that great, as your stuff can easily be known longhand as FirebirdSQL, their browser will have the intertia of being called "Mozilla" and people are likely to be clear about what they're referring to given the context of discussions about whether it's the browser or the database.

Asa's post on mozillazine which you quote on your front page was made on the 5th of December last year. The way you quote it seems to give the impression that's a recent response to you guys saying "we think there could be some confusion".

You already have firebird.sourceforge.net, mozilla is a larger project, it's likely that if there is any initial confusion when hunting for software that you'll get more people find you by accident when looking for mozilla.

People aren't going to get to the point where they have a browser in front of them and are going to be going "Hmm... this is a funny looking database...".

Did you enter into much of a dialogue with the mozilla team before calling for the en-mass mailing of the mozilla team? In other words is it an action of last resort? Or were you so irritated that you wanted to lash out?

Lousy attitudes.

[Accipiter]

Judging by their whiny, pithy attitude, I hope usage of their product (no matter how good it may be) drops even further. From the FirebirdSQL main page:

Our marks are not there for the taking and our advice is that the law is on our side: we have nearly three years of widespread international use of our mark.

What incredible arrogance to claim ownership of the word "Firebird" implied by the statement "Our marks are not there for the taking." Give me a break. That word wasn't theirs to begin with.

Plus, while they don't come right out and say that they'd threaten legal action, they're certainly hinting at it by claiming they believe the law is on their side. Of course, that's a bullshit scare tactic at best, and a weak one at that.

This is childish whining in every sense.

Shot themselves in the Foot

[neurostar]

This could also be just a smart move by the FirebirdSQL team.

Well, that depends... I for one have no intention of using a program where the developers and supporters resort to spamming and flooding other projects with derogatory comments. It shows a great level of immaturity. Therefore, I have no interest in using FirebirdSQL. I'd never heard of it before, but the only things I've heard about it so far are that the developers and supporters are basically jerks, flooding places with messages as opposed to openning up a positive, constructive dialog to resolve the differences.

IMHO, they've shot themselves in the foot.

neurostar

Re:"Interesting" My Foot

[Quarters]

(sigh...) Once again, class... "Prior Art" is for Patents. There is no such thing as "prior art" for trademarks or copyright. Any work is copyrighted at the time of creation. Trademarks must be applied for. Multiple products, companies, etc... can have the same trademarked named---as long as they don't compete in the same market space. For instance, if I started making beige-box computers and called them "Apple Computers" I'd be talking to some lawyers from Cupertino pretty quickly. If I made ball point pens and called them "Apple Pens", those same lawyers might try to coerce me to change the name, but there is no legal reason I would have to. I don't think a database and a browser are all that similar, personally. I don't think the FirebirdSQL team has much of an argument. That is, assuming they've bothered to trademark their name.

The easy solution! Everyone wins.

[gosand]

I just thought of the simplest solution that would please everyone. The Mozilla team simply puts a link on their website to the Firebird SQL site. Put it under a heading "Firebird browser is not affiliated with Firebird SQL" with Firebird SQL's logo.

Firebird SQL gets more visibility, Mozilla clears up any potential confusion (?). They both get to keep their project names.

Why does everything need to be such a big deal? Can anyone come up with a good idea why this won't work?

Re:Non-story

[rherbert]

mozilla-firebird-1.5-7.rpm
firebirdsql-1.0.2-908. rpm

That's confusing?

Re:Why complain this way?

[NineNine]

I find it hard to believe that this is how adults react in such a situation?

No, this is how zealots react. This kind of silly, childish bullshit is exactly why people have such a hard time even considering Open Source anything.

Re:I was hoping they would wait.

[Anonymous Coward]

You ever trip over something small in the dark? That's what happened to you. I don't think AOL or Mozilla or 90% of the IT industry knew you existed. By the sound of the yelp, I'd say that the Mozilla folks accidently stepped on IBPheonix's little "puppy".

Sept 11th suits the words better

[ianscot]

I'll second the parent's motion: PLEASE MAY THIS EXPRESSION NOT GAIN WIDER ACCEPTANCE. (Those of us who used to work in bookstores are dreading, dreading, the first "Management" section book with "Shock and Awe" in its subtitle.)

I bet that would stop anybody else from using it.

You probably bet wrong. Hey, Rummy went ahead with the expression even when the comparison to Sept 11 was freakishly obvious. Which event had more "shock and awe" to it -- 9/11, or a sustained cruise missile attack Donny R had been talking up for months beforehand?

Terrorism on the Bin Laden scale is ABOUT shock and awe. Apparently Rumsfeld's a little jealous of the effect...

What am I missing here?

[frdmfghtr]

Am I missing something, or is everybody failing to see the forest with all the trees in the way?

The issue appears to be what to call the stand-alone Mozilla browser. Why not call it simply...

MOZILLA BROWSER?

It's very clear what the product is, conflicts with nobody, and ends all this wasteful bickering. The solution is so frikking simple though that I MUST be missing something.

Re:I was hoping they would wait.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. I don't think Mozilla did this to spite you. I had never heard of you until your childish email campaign.

it is not about oss, it is about going after AOLTW

[Enzo1977]

I'm surprised people haven't realized that there is so much going on over the naming of phoenix and firebird because of their association with AOL/Time Warner. Sure it is a not-for-profit project but really, who is backing their pursuits so the code can be implemented in their own products other than AOL & Netscape. Lets be realistic, no matter how big their net losses were the AOLTW conglomerate is worth billions. It appears as if everyone with a preexisting product with an even remotely close name to that of mozilla (remember when the Godzilla people threatened suit?), phoenix (phoenix bios in my laptop?), thunderbird (pre-release name of microprocessors?), firebird (insert any product/project by name of firebird here). Do you get the point? They are all going to threaten mozilla to change their product name or be sued.

All hail the mighty dollar and the sleaziest as possible, yet legal way to get more if it.

Re:Why complain this way?

[Lord Ender]

One thing I have noticed is that a lot of people tend to act like children when they are online even if they seem mature in person. My hypothesis is that removing face-to-face contact removes many of the social pressures that force us to act 'maturely'.

Re: Are we missing the point?

[Mike Shaver]

Anyone who knows the recent history of how Interbase became Firebird appreciates just how wretched and bloody and ugly the final months were before it became open source. There were folks fighting tooth and nail to give this incredible product a fighting chance, and I have nothing but respect for what they have achieved.

From what little I know about the FirebirdSQL database, I have tremendous respect for their technical accomplishments, and the work they did to get their project off the ground.

I do not have any respect at all left for their methods in dealing with conflict. There are a lot of people trying to guess what mozilla.org did or did not do in the search for a new name for Phoenix, and how mozilla.org will or will not use the name "Firebird". These are speculations that don't need to happen, since simply asking politely would have had the questions answered. Instead, the FirebirdSQL crew assumed malice and and "dirty deeds" and went straight from "hey, they're using the name Firebird as well" to "they're evil and we must mailbomb them into the ground, so that they see that we deserve the name more".

I'm not involved in the day-to-day operation of Mozilla anymore, and I've been under email siege for days now. When this whole thing started, I was sympathetic to their emotional reaction, and interested in finding ways to mitigate the (incredibly small) chance of user confusion. Now, I don't want to have anything to do with the Firebird people at all, I no longer care much for their feelings, and I'm very unlikely to expend more effort in trying to reach some sort of outcome that makes them happy. Maybe that was their intent, but maybe I'm starting to understand why their dealings with Borland were so troublesome.

(That they've had historic problems with names and legal issues and whatever other hell they, like any other large project, have endured might explain some of their IMO immature, self-damaging, offensive behaviour, but it sure doesn't excuse it.)

Actually, the very first thing I did when I heard about the conflict was head to Google, where I found that searching for firebird [google.com] turned up a pile of projects and products, firebird software [google.com] was just as crowded, and firebird internet [google.com] completed the trifecta of shared-namespace results. So my take was, and largely still is, that there's a community of projects using the name "Firebird", including many in the software and internet spaces, and that we would be N + 1 to their happy N. Nobody has yet made a convincing argument to me that it can't be the case, nor that FirebirdSQL's million-plus users and developers will disappear because FirebirdSQL is no longer the largest project using the name-part. And believe me, I've heard a lot of argument on this topic.

If a name change is made -- which I find to be unlikely, and which makes the "only a name change will satisfy us" position of the FirebirdSQL people somewhat unfortunate -- I hope it's to "butt-head database" [venona.com].

I am not speaking for mozilla.org here, in case that wasn't clear. I just think that the FirebirdSQL people could have done themselves a lot of good by approaching mozilla.org politely and explaining their concerns, before bitching to the press and inciting mail and forum-bombings, replete with ad hominem nonsense. At the least, they've lost themselves whatever meagre contribution I could have made to a peaceful resolution.

Mike

Re:Why bother to take another projects name?

[chrisgeleven]

I would ask them to consider how they would feel if Microsoft decided to rename Powerpoint as Microsoft Mozilla - in their (mozilla's) legal teams opinion it would cause no confusion?

Mozilla is an invented word, Firebird is so common in the English language that it is no longer an invented work. Hence, no one can use Mozilla in any product (just try to name a store "Coca-Cola", you'll last at most 24 hours). Everyone can use Firebird, as long as there isn't competiting products with the same name in the same area. Since Mozilla Firebird is a web browser and the Firebird DB is a database, there is no competition and therefor no conflict.

1. I can see mozilla users ending up at firebird.sourceforge.net looking for information on mozilla-firebird.

Mozilla users? Any Mozilla user knows that http://www.mozilla.org is the Mozilla web site. The media and all download sites correctly link to the Mozilla web site whenever talking/promoting the product. If a user is looking for the Mozilla Firebird web browser on Google and stumbles upon the Firebird DB project, a simple click on the back button and they are back to their search. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Firebird DB and Mozilla Firebird were ranked 1 and 2 in Google. No confusion if they are clearly labeled.

3. I can see package confusion occuring on most linux distributions - install which firebird rpm?
Once again, it is MOZILLA FIREBIRD not just plain Firebird. Hence, any RPM'S for Mozilla Firebird will probably be something like mozilla-firebird-1.5.rpm

4. Security releases for "Firebird" are likely to overlapping on searches by product name.
Once again, in the media and official web sites, Mozilla Firebird will be used whenever describing a security issue. The security information will always make it clear that it is a web browser. A simple google search for Firebird + Security NOT "Mozilla Firebird" will bring up all the relevant issues for the Firebird database.

5. My (limited) exposure to legal issues, was that just being another software product is cause enough to create user confusion. So Im supprised at their legal advice (but am not a lawyer).
In my business law class at my university, I asked a question about this. The answer I got was as long as a software product wasn't competiting directly with another software product in the same market (hence, the web browser market or database market), then it is ok to have similar names. For years I have seen various products with the same names by different companies for different purposes. Pick up the latest software catalog and see how many names are the same or very similar.

6. Web applications often include browsers and databases. Scripting languages often support both , so what will something like PHP with Firebird support mean. My feeling is after a year, noone will remember it was a database.
Clearly label any mentions of the web browser Mozilla Firebird and label any mentions of the database Firebird DB. Even put a 1 line disclaimer if you are so worried ("Mozilla Firebird web browser and the Firebird DB are two completely unrelated products by different vendors"). Problem solved.


7. I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining to people that Firebird (our project) is not a web browser.

Don't have to, everyone will call the web browser Mozilla Firebird. Anyone who can figure out how to use the Firebird DB cannot possibily be confused with Mozilla Firebird. Everyone knows what a web browser looks like. The icons for these applications will be very different. Mozilla Firebird will be written underneath the icon. No confusion.

My highschool's sports teams...

[Jester99]

have been the Firebirds since I think the 1960s. Therefore, we're going to have to ask IBPhoenix to change their product's name too. Damned confusing, an SQL engine and a basketball team you know.

Seriously. Who's going to accidentally end up downloading or think they're discussing a web browser when they're talking about SQL? And vice versa? Lighten the hell up already, IBPhoenix.

Mozilla

[ee96090]

How about...

Mozilla!

I bet noone has thought of *that*! :)

Seriously, mozilla has a name, why not keep it? Mozilla as we know it will cease to exist anyway (split GRE, mailnews, browser), so why not call the browser simply mozilla?

Re:I was hoping they would wait.

[Skjellifetti]

From one AC:

You ever trip over something small in the dark? That's what happened to you. I don't think AOL or Mozilla or 90% of the IT industry knew you existed. By the sound of the yelp, I'd say that the Mozilla folks accidently stepped on IBPheonix's little "puppy".

We have a winner for best explanation of how this all happened.

And from another AC:

I don't think Mozilla did this to spite you. I had never heard of you until your childish email campaign.

And another winner for best description of FirebirdBrandSQL's response.

Sorry, no mod points, but both of these ACs needed to be heard.

Re:I was hoping they would wait.

[platypus]

You ever trip over something small in the dark? That's what happened to you. I don't think AOL or Mozilla or 90% of the IT industry knew you existed. By the sound of the yelp, I'd say that the Mozilla folks accidently stepped on IBPheonix's little "puppy".

How hard could that be to find out?
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q= firebird [google.com]

Look at the first result. The FIRST!!!
If mozilla will use firebird, these guys will be quickly pushed back to result 10-1000, so nobody say that this won't hurt them.

IOW, AOL/the mozilla guys fucked up.

Okay, this is now getting *OLD*.

[jonadab]

First it was Mozilla. Then it was Netscape. Then it was Navigator.
Then it was Communicator, which contained Navigator and was produced
by Netscape. Then it was Mozilla again. Then it was SeaMonkey.
Then it was Mozilla again. Then they decided to split it up into
Phoenix, Minotaur, and so forth. Then they renamed them to Firebird,
Thunderbird, and who knows what. Now the name Firebird is in
dispute... *ENOUGH*. No more name changes. Just call it "the
Mozilla.org browser", "the Mozilla.org mailreader", and so on, and
that'll be fine.

Re:Why bother to take another projects name?

[synx]

Hi,

Yet another opinion, but since you expressed yours freely, I shall express mine freely as well.

First, I'm sort of confused, you claim that the word 'Firebird' is hereby permanently owned by the 'Firebird SQL' project for all Software projects? Even if you had a trademark on 'Firebird' in the US, the trademark office would probably still grant Mozilla/AOL the ability to use that word to describe their product. Why? Databases and Browsers don't compete, they aren't in the same functional area by far, and there is no way a 'reasonable person' would confuse a database and a web browser.

Most of your arguments seem to rely on "we wont be #1 in google anymore" complaints. You seem to be fixated that by naming their browser the Mozilla Firebird browser this somehow dilutes the FirebirdSQL project. I don't see how, and I think a reasonable person would either.

I think there is something deeper here.