Firebird Name Debate Enters a New Stage 711
An anonymous reader writes "As many readers will know, mozilla.org was asked to change the name for their standalone browser, Phoenix as another browser had the same name. After months of discussion, the new name was announced as Mozilla Firebird. Despite the new name being approved by AOL Legal, supporters of the FirebirdSQL database were quick to object (though the name is also used by many other people). A coincidentally named supporter of FirebirdSQL, IBPhoenix, put up a slightly immature request for their readers to participate in mass posting campaign targetting mozilla.org developers' email accounts, newsgroups and even forums at independent sites such as MozillaZine and Slashdot. FirebirdSQL's official site later reiterated this message. However, IBPhoenix have now declared this shock-and-awe stage of their campaign over, heralding it a success. Their second stage calls for a more focussed email protest at just two of mozilla.org's members: Mitchell Baker (mozilla.org's leader) and Asa Dotzler (announcer of the name change). In addition, they ask their readers to move away from 'derogatory messages' and to show more 'courtesy'. Unsurprisingly, the beleaguered admins of affected sites such as MozillaZine have welcomed this change of direction. This is getting very interesting!"
Why complain this way? (Score:4, Interesting)
Do they think that annoying some group of people will make it better? If I were the mozilla group I would have issues with giving in. Brute force does not mean its right.
A database and a browser are not the same. There would not be any confusion. There has to be a better way to handle this.
I think I would be less likely to use or work on the database project now... all because on how they reacted.
How about Bennu? (Score:5, Interesting)
I propose:
Bennu - Heron-like Phoenix of Egyptian mythology. It arose from the flames of Heliopolis and was worshipped as the soul of Orisis incarnate.
http://members.tripod.com/~Ertosi/Folklore/Myth
Re:"Interesting" My Foot (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe their methods aren't the greatest, but this is a good chance for them to raise awareness. The project should get more attention anyways, it's up there with Postgres (or maybe better) as a high-quality enterprise database (formerly SAP DB).
Re:They are 100% right. (Score:2, Interesting)
Screw this. (Score:0, Interesting)
Now there are similar posts here talking smack about "well who the hell knows who FirebirdSQL is anyway?" and "those immature people", all while any time a Microsoft employee farts loud enough for the guy in the next cubicle to hear it, it appears as a !!shocking post!! on Slashdot.
Also any time some remote governmental body in the furthest reaches of BFE adopts Linux to run its fileservers, its likewise heralded here so that the sheep-like masses may learn of the great advances of Unix-like OSes.
Yeah, people, I know, this is Slashdot. So let's just not even try to be even remotely even-minded, okay?
Screw the people behind this. They're twits that apparently couldn't handle the seemingly reasonable task of arriving at a name that was original (meaning that it wasn't before used by an automobile company for a popular car, or any other of a number of companies for any number of other products), creative (meaning that it didn't absolutely have to do with some kind of mythical flaming avian), and fair (meaning that they didn't decide to step on people's toes just because they finally got shoes big enough to do it). This just suggests that software developers in this space are all competing for the same pie and that ultimately it all comes down to who has the power to pull what stunt they want to pull. Mozilla's no better than Microsoft, they're just smaller.
Go ahead. Mod me down. At least I'm not baa-baa-baaing my way down the slaughterhouse chute while the rest of you are chanting the praises of the farmer.
Huh? (Score:2, Interesting)
Mozilla.org announced in the new roadmap that the whole Mozilla suite will be Using Phoenix/Firebird/... and Minotaur/Thunderbird/... as the base for future development.
Why doesn't Mozilla.org just rename Phoenix to Mozilla Browser NG and Minotaur to Mozilla Mail NG (NG = Next Generation) or something? That would IMHO stop confusion.
Re:How about Bennu? (Score:3, Interesting)
Dinosaur (Score:3, Interesting)
Mozilla Allosaurs Mail
Mozilla Stegosaurus Web Browser
Mozilla Coelophysis Usenet client
If not, then maybe stick to the lizard theme (i.e. Gecko):
Mozilla Chameleon?
Mozilla Iguana?
Mozilla Salamander?
Etcetera.
Re:I got a name for em! (Score:3, Interesting)
Why bother to take another projects name? (Score:5, Interesting)
I would ask them to consider how they would feel if Microsoft decided to rename Powerpoint as Microsoft Mozilla - in their (mozilla's) legal teams opinion it would cause no confusion?
Yes, Ok we could have chosen better as well, Firebird is but our mistake is three years ago and we didn't have the financial means to get any legal advice (still don't really). It was a name chosen by a few enthusiasts, after checking round the web that it wasn't going to conflict with anyone. From the lack of complaints over the last three years, I guess we haven't stepped on anyones toes.
But with mozilla we will overlap, some examples of confusing areas:
1. I can see mozilla users ending up at firebird.sourceforge.net looking for information on mozilla-firebird.
2. I can see much confusion between news and list names : see
http://www.mozillazine.org/forums/index.php?c=4
vs:
http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php?op=lis
After a year of two of posts to these, that will seriously muck up google searches for "firebird" and "download" for instance, as well as firebird (and moz) getting user requests for browers/databases in both our general newslists.
3. I can see package confusion occuring on most linux distributions - install which firebird rpm?
4. Security releases for "Firebird" are likely to overlapping on searches by product name.
5. My (limited) exposure to legal issues, was that just being another software product is cause enough to create user confusion. So Im supprised at their legal advice (but am not a lawyer).
6. Web applications often include browsers and databases. Scripting languages often support both , so what will something like PHP with Firebird support mean. My feeling is after a year, noone will remember it was a database.
7. I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining to people that Firebird (our project) is not a web browser.
So you've got to ask why cause all the confusion (most of which I fear will be suffered by our users and developers), when it can be simply fixed by Mozilla choosing another name that doesn't conflict with an existing project.
I find this especially strange when coming from one name clash, they decided to go into another, with all that "months of legal help" surely they can come up with their own unique name.
And yes I am involved with the firebird project and the firebirdsql foundation. Where a lot of people work very hard on a Firebird for zero dollars in return.
Regards
Mark O'Donohue
--
See you at the First European Firebird Conference in May in Fulda, Germany
http://www.firebird-conference.com
(since I've had a few pointy notes, that Im only doing all this for the publicity, [Im not personally I feel quite sick in the stomach about this whole episode] I thought I'd include my normal
"FirebirdSQL" and "Mozilla Firebird" can coexist (Score:3, Interesting)
Semi-generic names suffixed with "SQL" have already coexisted with other projects. For instance, there's a "MySQL", a "MyMP3", etc. So just call the database "FirebirdSQL" and the web browser "Mozilla Firebird". You don't see the maintainer of xstep [sourceforge.net] going apedung on the other xstep [thomasscott.net], do you?
Re:Are we missing the point? (Score:3, Interesting)
Hit by Friendly Fire is definately how I feel about this whole issue.
We don't have the resources for any legal challange, although I do think the claim we're in a seperate industry is questionable.
Essentially we probably have to cop whatever Mozilla (and their AOL legal team) decide they want to do.
If Firebird(tm) is all about standing up to defending your brand, then at least (but probably not in any important legal sense) we are doing that.
Cheers
Mark
Re:The new name (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Dinosaur (Score:3, Interesting)
Surely the stegosaurus name should be reserved for whatever app they make that hides information in jpgs, mp3s, etc?
Question... (Score:5, Interesting)
There's a little joke there for those "in the know", but it's really not a joke. The problem is that you *do* have to be "in the know". About a third of the people reading this post probably didn't realize there was supposed to *be* a joke there. I'll bet even a bunch of the "in the know" folks missed it. Didn't you?
That's because the names Firebird and Thunderbird are absolutely meaningless to most of us. There's no context. There's a reason the Firebird relational database is called FirebirdSQL most of the time, to help give it some context. Somebody on that team realized that Firebird all by itself wouldn't necessarily mean anything to anyone, until or unless it was built into a big name with tons of publicity.
If the Firebird/Thunderbird/Mozilla/Phoenix people actually want real humans to learn about and use their software, they really need to come up with some better, more relevant, more original names. Otherwise only the geek community is going to know what the hell we're talking about whenever we mention those products. There are still very few people who have even heard of Mozilla outside the geek realm. It shouldn't take a government study to realize that part of the problem is the cute, meaningless name. Every time I mention Mozilla I have to explain that it's a web browser. I shouldn't have to explain that it's a web browser, but only that it's a *good* web browser. Something about the name should already have told them, at least partially, that it was a web browser.
"Internet Explorer" may not be cute, but by gosh nobody is going to be confused about what a product with that name is supposed to do. I'm really kind of flabbergasted that the Mozilla community can't come up with something, after months of discussion, that's better than Firebird/Thunderbird. Two mythological names that tell me absolutely nothing about the software they refer to, and furthermore are so similar that it will be difficult even for us geeks to remember which part they refer to. "Now, does fire remind me more of the Internet, or of e-mail? Hmm..."
C'mon people. Surely the whole community can come up with something inbetween these useless "cute" names and the mundane dry clearness of the "explorer" and "navigator" names, and have something that's original, informative and catchy enough for non-geeks to use without feeling ridiculous. I mean, good God, OpenEmail and OpenBrowser would be better than what they've come up with.
Here's hoping the right people will read this, have the same thoughts and run with it...
Stick with Phoenix, *everyone* uses phoenix (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:One Man's Opinion (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Non-story (Score:5, Interesting)
That's how things should be. I wish Gentoo-as-file-manager's author would go smack some sense into Firebird-as-database's whiny users/developers. Of course I also wish it didn't take a pack of lawyers to pick a name for your fucking software.
Re:Question... (Score:2, Interesting)
Yet another fine example of my point right there. "Opera? What the hell is that? Why would I want to browse the web with an Opera?"
Welcome to the real world, folks. And this isn't even Joe User. This is a smart user. Joe User is the one who does confuse bananas and bread. Two words: "banana bread". (Another little in-joke there for those who RTFA.)
Re:Why bother to take another projects name? (Score:2, Interesting)
I hope you don't represent the Firebird SQL group, because that long list of examples you gave is kinda weak.
1. I can see mozilla users ending up at firebird.sourceforge.net looking for information on mozilla-firebird.
And so? It's not like people looking for Firebird SQL will end up going to mozilla.org. This example is something that should worry the Mozilla group, but guess what, it doesn't. Maybe you should thank the Mozilla community for giving Firebird SQL the free publicity.
2. I can see much confusion between news and list names : see
After a year of two of posts to these, that will seriously muck up google searches for "firebird" and "download" for instance, as well as firebird (and moz) getting user requests for browers/databases in both our general newslists.
Alas, any popular software named "Firebird" would give you the same problem. I know you don't think that you're the first software project named "Firebird", and I bet you're not even the first database named "Firebird". To whine about this now, after having chosen a very popular word used to sell many different types of products, is ridiculous. You may not be concerned that the category "software" is considered (common usage) a more broad category than one such as "automobile" (so a Mitsubishi Firebird is illegal, for instance), but you threw all your credibility out the door when, instead of coming up with an original name (a highly trivial task), you chose a generic name everybody and his cousin would consider using.
3. I can see package confusion occuring on most linux distributions - install which firebird rpm?
4. Security releases for "Firebird" are likely to overlapping on searches by product name.
please.
5. My (limited) exposure to legal issues, was that just being another software product is cause enough to create user confusion. So Im supprised at their legal advice (but am not a lawyer).
Are you saying there was no other software product name "Firebird" when you started using it three years ago? If so, I'd be interested in hearing about how you checked.
6. Web applications often include browsers and databases. Scripting languages often support both , so what will something like PHP with Firebird support mean.
The same thing "PHP with Mozilla support" or "C++ with Mozilla support" means. Nothing.
7. I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining to people that Firebird (our project) is not a web browser.
So what? You can't even come up with an honest scenario where confusion is likely. People who use SQL databases aren't as inept as you think.
Re:I see it as Mozilla.org's duty (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:wrong (Score:2, Interesting)
From what I've heard, Mozilla changed the name knowing FULL WELL there was another piece of software with the name.
I'm not saying this isn't true, but I would like to know if it is. Can you give any evidence?
behaving like adults (Score:5, Interesting)
if you'd like to see how sensible people handle this sort of thing, check out the two gentoo's:
http://www.obsession.se/gentoo/ [obsession.se]
http://www.gentoo.org/ [gentoo.org]
looks like so many problems would be solved if people just had some better manners.
Re:How about Bennu? (Score:5, Interesting)
I mean, yeah, when you're explaining what it means to your uncultured IE-using colleagues, you'd get to use phrases like "flames of Heliopolis" and "soul of Orisis (sic)"... but they're just going to go, "Benoo, huh? Ah think ah'll jez stick with me Explorer, or mebbe see what all the fuzz about this Firebird thingy wot I heard about is, it sounds tootin'-good. You can keep yer Benoo, college-boy."
I propose moving away from the flaming-bird theme if it'll make getting a cooler name possible. Minotaur, maybe, or Gorgon, or even a non-creature, like Odysseus or something. Hey, there's an idea: Odysseus was a navigator of sorts, wasn't he?
Re:"Interesting" My Foot (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not sure the "any publicity is good publicity" mantra applies when you're talking about an informed and critical forum like /. though. Just ask Microsoft how many new users they've acquired through their publicity here -- and they even get their own icon... ;-)
Re:The new name (Score:2, Interesting)
That almost exactly goes to the point. I would surmise that FirebirdSQL never registered the trademark, thus lacks the (tm). Furthermore, they aren't widely known as "Firebird". (In fact until now they weren't even widely known as "FirebirdSQL", but thats another matter.)
So FirebirdSQL meets neither the registered trademark requirement, or the "widely used" test for rights to a trademarked name.
FirebirdSQL has been benifiting from any potential infringement, and any confusion will only continue benefit them.
Re:Non-story (Score:4, Interesting)
Or do you really believe that more people are associating the name Firebird with this database (for the record, I didn't know about their name change to Firebird, and I'm a professional DBA) than they are with the Pontiac muscle car? I would be willing to bet that they were much further down the list before this came out.
Anyway, did the Firebird team consult with, let's see, Firebird Web Design [firebird.net]? Or Financial Firebird [financialfirebird.com]? Or any number of other software projects using the name Firebird?
My opinion? Its their fault for using a generic name. Microsoft's product isn't called Windows, its "Microsoft Windows". Why isn't the database Firebird called "Firebird SQL" (for example)? And the browser "Mozilla Firebird" (hmm.. bulky..). Nobody has exclusive rights to the name Firebird, no matter who came first.
I miss Usenet flames. (Score:2, Interesting)
They never considered... (Score:1, Interesting)
As for the Mozilla team, if they want new code names they can always continue with their original Japanese monster theme, e.g. Modan, Mhidra, Moamera, Momothra ("please return the source code to us!"), and so on.
Or they might go the message board route, with names like Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, Offensive, Troll, and Flamebait.
--- Brian
Re:They should call it... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I was hoping they would wait. (Score:2, Interesting)
Yeah, and they did a really exhaustive search...
I put the word "Firebird" into google.
Top "hit" was:
"Firebird - Relational Database for the New Millennium".
There was also a paid ad for the "Firebird SQL Conference".
Hard to find, huh?
Something else I've noticed is that people's reactions on this subject are mostly based on their feelings for the product -- had a commercial company decided to launch the next generation of IE or whatever under the banned of Firebird, I guarentee you there'd be much screaming from the open source fans about how evil said company was to do that.
But I guess those that use Phoenix feel that it doesn't matter who had the name first...
-G-