Netscape 7.1 Released

Phil writes "Netscape has just released the eagerly-awaited Netscape 7.1 (previously known by its codename, 'Buffy') for Windows, Mac OS and Linux. The new version is based on Mozilla 1.4, which is due out later today. Netscape 7.1 features many improvements over 7.02 including even better CSS support, spam filters, find-as-you-type, automatic image resizing, more customization via about:config, Web development tools, Palm synchronization and more. Plus, for the first time, ChatZilla (Mozilla's IRC client) is included in the full install. More information can be found at Netscape Browser Central and in this MozillaZine article. The release is available from Netscape's download page, via FTP or on CD."

How does mozilla handle old caches?

[Thinkit3]

I hate getting old data because the browser is caching. Is it easy to totally turn caching off? Under certain circumstances, in mac IE, you can even hit reload and get an old copy.

I'll continue to use Mozilla

[sstory]

I'll continue to use Mozilla firebird and thunderbird, thank you very much. Why? Same code, basically, but Mozilla doesn't litter every spot on my computer with AOL icons, in my favorites, start menu, programs menu, etc.

Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm probably not the first to ask, but why? Why don't they just let Netscape die in peace and tell people to go use Mozilla? It doesn't add anything of value.

Re:How does mozilla handle old caches?

[bgarcia]

This is one of my pet peeves about Mozilla/Netscape.

If you really, really want to reload a page, you have to hold down the shift key while clicking on the reload button.

I have no idea why the developers think it is useful to have a reload button that does something less than a full reload, nor do I know why they believe that a "shift-reload" (which is completely undocumented BTW) is an appropriate user interface for doing a real reload.

But does it work on Red Hat 6.0?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

The recent mozilla and netscape browsers have been consistent in not working on a vanilla Red Hat 6.0 install, due to a Java runtime library install bug.

Did that get fixed in this release? Or are they still abandoning anyone who hasn't upgraded?

Re:I'll continue to use Mozilla

[OmniVector]

this is one of the things that has always bothered me when i see netscape installed on someone's machine. To the average user netscape and IE are the only two browsers in existance.

mozilla has very little exposure outside the geek world. i know it's catching on, but 99% of the people at work have never heard of it.

The continuation of monopolistic OSS/FS practices

[Anonymous Coward]

Although I understand the reasoning behind the addition of an IRC client to a web-browsing suite, why this trend, which is noticably shared between FS/OSS software, more or less reminds MS policies? Regardless if I am an MS fan or not, you should always remember that settlements regarding the MS 'monopolistic practices' can backfire at any time. I have considered that seriously as the small guy that produces commercial closed-source software is likely to be affected by the OSS/FS monopolistic plans. Again, this is not to state quality of OSS/FS versus CS, the freedom or whatever they stabd for, but simply a fair treatment they should receive from justice at som point. Cheers.

Re:To bad....

[g_arumilli]

This is the reason why Netscape lost out to IE on the Windows platform, not because Microsoft somehow unfairly leveraged its position as the developer of Windows...Netscape used to be the king of browsers, but their laziness/refusal to innovate eventually led them to fall behind Internet Explorer...By the time Communicator rolled around, Netscape was bloated and inefficient, while Internet Explorer loaded quickly (even on Macs, not just on Windows) and ran far more smoothly while incorporating support for more HTML standards...

Netscape can whine all it wants about how Microsoft competed with it unfairly, but the fact remains that Netscape is the only party responsible for its own doom...And now that its parent company AOL has signed an agreement with Microsoft, there's no way in hell that they're ever going to recover...At least some of their efforts will live on in Mozilla...

Better java support

[mao che minh]

Although I prefer Mozilla overall, I keep an install of Netscape around because of it's more efficient use of Java under Linux (for the rare occasions when I really need to access some Java program). I can get Java going decently in Mozilla, but I get tired of having to make fresh symlinks and other small changes each time I overhaul Mozilla.

Right press

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll stop using 4.x when you pry the keyboard out from under my cold, dead, fingers . . . or Netscape makes context menu on right mouse press down an option again.

Reason why Netscape failed

[AtariAmarok]

" This is the reason why Netscape lost out to IE on the Windows platform, not because Microsoft somehow unfairly leveraged its position as the developer of Windows..."

It is a combination of both factors. Netscape made their browser worse and worse, while M$ improved IE...which they bundled for free and promoted aggressively. The two factors combined nicely to turn Netscape into a footnote.

Why are version numbers so uneven

[superpulpsicle]

Netscape 7.1 for windows, linux, mac

Netscape 4.x for solaris, sgi and many other oses. Why is the numbering so whacked?

Re:Netscape?

[Delphiki]

"obviously there is no need to look beyond IE"?

Have you ever used a browser other than IE? Every other browser I've used in the last year has offered a better browsing experience than IE. Mozilla has tabbed browsing and more recently pop up blocking. Phoenix has had both for a while. Plus IE doesn't render especially fast, and lacks a number of other features contained in most Gecko browsers. There are some reasons to use IE of course, like for plugins that only work in IE.

There is obviously good reason to look beyond IE though.

Re:How does mozilla handle old caches?

[DNS-and-BIND]

I have the opposite problem. IE loads every page, regardless of whether it has the page on hand already or not. Especially irritating on those 360k-per-page web-based discussion boards, going back and forth on threads. And you can forget keeping any text you type in a text box if you go forward or backward in history.

Re:How does mozilla handle old caches?

[Politburo]

Without using shift, the browser will still used cached images. Therein lies the difference.

Also, there's a slight chance that hitting F5 is the equivalent of shift+clicking reload.

Code name: too appropriate!

[fm6]

The whole Mozilla/Netscape effort is, alas, a prime example of the Buffy Syndrome [csis.org]. As Anthony Cordesman summarizes:

...each series of crises only becomes predictable when it is over and is followed by a new and unfamiliar one.

While uncertainty is the dominating motif, the "Buffy paradigm" has the following additional characteristics:

• What expertise there is consists largely of bad or uncertain advice and old, flawed, and confusing technical data.
• The importance of any given threat changes constantly, past threat behavior does not predict future behavior, and methods of delivery keep changing.
• Arcane knowledge is always inadequate and fails to predict, detect, and properly characterize the threat.
• The more certain and deterministic an expert is at the start, the more wrong they turn out to be in practice.
• The scenarios are unpredictable and have very unclear motivation. Any effort to predict threat motivation and behavior in detail before the event does at least as much
• Risk taking is not rationale or subject to predictable constraints and the motivation behind escalation is erratic at best.
• It is never clear whether the threat is internal, from an individual, or from an outside organisation.
• The attackers have no firm or predictable alliances, cooperate in nearly random ways, and can suddenly change method of attack and willingness to take risks.
• All efforts at planning a coherent strategy collapse in the face of tactical necessity and the need to deal with unexpected facts on the ground.
• The balance between external defense, homeland defense, and response changes constantly.
• No success, not matter how important at the time, ever eliminates the risk of future problems.

Of course, Cordesman is talking about terrorism, not software. Still...

Re:Netscape?

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck is the point in tabbed browsing? That's something the window manager should be doing, not the application. You could replicate it anyway with gnomepanel or whatever.

Re:Mozilla 1.4

[DeadSea]

I just tried 1.4 and a recent fix that was in the nightly that I've been using for the last two weeks didn't make it in. The Mozilla developers finally fixed it so that the new mail notification can play sounds! Before, no matter what sound you specified, it would always beep the system beeper. Too bad the fix didn't make it into 1.4, I was looking forward to using an actual release for a while...

Who uses Netscape?

[Merk]

It's so strange. I look at the writeup for the new Netscape release, and when the poster talks about the new features, the links they provide are links to mozilla.org pages. I look at the Netscape [netscape.com] main page and I can't even tell that they make a browser. The "Downloads" link is tucked away in the upper-left corner. Even today, when they're releasing a new version, there's no hint of it even on their main page!! Instead the big deal is "10 things everyone should do before turning 30". Whaa?? Then, there's the awful pain of trying to install the Netscape version. The last time I installed a version of the Netscape-branded Mozilla, I had AOL crap littering my system everywhere.

On the other hand, when I go to the Mozilla [mozilla.org] site everything is clear. It's obvious where to download the version of Mozilla I want for the platform I want. It's also normally 2 or 3 versions ahead of the Netscape-branded release, and the install process is clean and painless.

Given all that, who are the poor sods downloading and installing Netscape?? I guess they have enough knowledge of computers to be able to install an alternative to IE, but not enough to be able to know about Mozilla? Can there really be more than a handfull of these people, and can't they be rescued and re-educated?

I don't think it should catch on yet

[sstory]

Though I use it, I wouldn't reccommend others use Mozilla yet. Why? Because the mechanism for saving your old mail is not yet developed. You have to physically find the file which contains your old mail and transplant it. This is an important capability which is missing.

Suggestion: Double Refresh

[Speare]

Here's a suggestion: if Reload has been clicked in the last second, and is clicked again, then perform a full reload instead of the default partial.

This is similar to the graduated selection gestures on Macintoshes and some terminal applications (click more often to select character, word, line, or paragraph).

I'm surprised more interface elements don't support graduated power, where a single click gives a happy-and-useful partial solution, a double-click does the same but is more inclusive in an obvious way. In this case, it's even more natural than the aforementioned text-selection: "dammit, refresh more!"

Re:Can't a browser just be a browser

[mobets]

I don't use the palm software now because I now use Evolution in Linux. But when I was first trying to get away from Outlook, it was realy nice to be able to sync with my Mozilla address book. Otherwise, I would have had to maintain a second copy in Palm Desktop. The only thing missing now is a good callender.

Re:Mozilla 1.4

[Ark42]

Really? I have had the Wee-woo! sound forever, not a default Ding! or Beep!
As far as I know it still works in 1.4 final which I just downloaded. ( I know it worked in RC3 ).

Any source for MD5 checksums?

[JLyle]

I am downloading mozilla-win32-1.4-installer.exe from the BitTorrent link posted here [slashdot.org] but for paranoia's sake I would like to check it against the official Mozilla release. Does the Mozilla project post MD5 checksums for its releases anywhere? I didn't see them in the download directory.

Re:Mozilla 1.4

[DeadSea]

I think it was only a Linux bug. I wouldn't know if it ever worked on Windows.

Do we need all of these?

[Luzumsuz Lazim]

...features many improvements... including spam filters,... Palm synchronization and more...

I hate this. I am a relatively smart person, above average for sure, and I live within computers all day, yet these densely packed programs manage to confuse me. Does it have to support Palm synchronization or do we really need to combine the web browser and the mail client? If they feel that they are good at these areas as well, they can produce a separate product(s) which can communicate with each other, but can also work independently.

Adding more properties is not the challenge, adding them transparent to the user is the challenge. I want to see neither millions of buttons in toolbar nor millions of options when i press the 2nd mouse button on the canvas. Ex. can someone tell me why do I need to press the 2nd mouse button and choose the "back/forward" in the pop-up menu, which may appear in different locations w.r.t. the pointer depending on the pointer position, instead of just clicking the "back/forward" icon in the toolbar?

Well I am sure that someone will find an absurd reason for this, thus let me respond it beforehand: Then, I need the "Sort the lines shown on this page w.r.t. the second word on each line" item in the same pop-up window. I need this once in every about 3 months. I can hear another reply. Here is my answer: Be realistic. Most of the users do not disable the toolbar. Thus, instead of making it complex to keep the minority happy, it can be programed as a dynamic menu depending on the toolbar status. (Well, I must admit, I didn't install Netscape 7.1 yet, but this is the defacto behavior for almost all browsers I saw -- Himm... I'm not sure about Safari I should check this next time I use it.) If Netscape 7.1 addresses these kind of issues, can someone point this out for me?

The bottom line is that we need simple looking but powerful software, not a messy software with kitchen-sink included.

Starting to get the non-geeks

[dimer0]

This surprised me... Last week, I've converted two of my not-so-savvy neighbors up the block to Mozilla. They never want to use IE again.

Popup blocking was their #1 concern. They were amazed how mozilla handled this. "Why doesn't IE do this?".. Ugh

Once I showed them tabbed browsing, they were in love.

Couple things, tho, that could help:

1) First guy I installed Phoenix for, upgraded to Mozilla 1.4rc3 because of the friendly reminder he was running an old build. Umm.. Don't tell my non-savvy neighbors they need to switch product lines when their home page comes up.

2) Would be nice if there was a bundle build you could grab with flash, java, etc - installed. Or at least something that goes and looks for the java plugin on your system and registers with that, instead of having to reinstall the java plugin to set the hooks that way.. (Is this possible?)

The tide is turning, tho..

Netscape/Mozilla vs. Internet Explorer..

[msimm]

Problem with the browser war is as an employee or a student there is a good chance you will *need* Internet Explorer, but what's the chance of needing Netscape?

The business I work for tends to do a lot of work online, things like banking and payroll. We use the ADP web entry system (buggy) that is not compatible with Mozilla (haven't tried Netscape) we also have a international booking system which is not compatible with Netscape/Mozilla. A few key features like this is more then enough to turn the average use off of anything but the tool that works. I can't think a single example where it was necessary to use Mozilla instead of IE.

I know none of this is really about Netscape or Mozilla, but Microsoft has their market pretty locked down with proprietary extensions and incompatibilities.

Mozilla will win some users with features like pop-up blocking and on-the-fly html editing. But we need a real zinger to actually pull people away from a built=in browser that works on a larger part of the sites people visit.

I've converted my work place over to Mozilla, but at least once a month someone comes to me complaining that they can't get a page to load and I have to tell them to use Internet Explorer (anyone who uses a site requiring activex more often already knows).

Re:How does mozilla handle old caches?

[DavidTC]

It's apparently completely unknown among web browser designers, but web browsers are not supposed to generate any network traffic at all on back and forward buttons. They're supposed to be backwards and forwards in what you have viewed, not 'where you're been'.

Of course, absolutely no browser's back and forward buttons actually follows this standard. (Or, alternately, they do not possess the commands the HTTP spec says they should have, and instead possess completely different commands named the same thing.)

Mozilla and (blush) systems resources

[drdale]

Okay, I confess that I'm a lamer. Not only do I run Windows, but I still run Win 98SE. But I decided to download Mozilla 1.4 today, making one feeble gesture toward geekhood. But you may remember that 98 still has the old system resources constraint, and Mozilla is an absolute pig for the resources. Makes it hard to run it along with any other programs. But it does seem to be pretty good about giving up the resources once it is closed.