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Mozilla The Internet

Galeon Developers Interview 204

Nachtjäger writes "The Galeon website has an interview with the developers, describing overall project health, current problems, and future direction. There's also a place to ask your own questions for future interviews."
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Galeon Developers Interview

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  • by owenb ( 91248 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @03:59PM (#6541034)

    Gnome is rapidly becoming a major clusterfuck these days. Which is a shame, because the only other real option is selling yourself to SCO (aka... Trolltech's owner), and subjecting yourself to the full GPL just to write desktop apps, or paying SCO $3000 for every developer.

    Enough with this FUD. SCO own less than 2% of Trolltech. Trolltech put out an extremely high quality GPL'd product, and you complain? Write a better one, fix the problems in Gnome, or shut up.

  • To be honest... (Score:1, Interesting)

    by James A. A. Joyce ( 681634 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @04:09PM (#6541090) Journal
    ...I hope RedHat takes something like Firebird for its browser. It's featureful and it wouldn't be difficult to whack an even simpler configuration interface on it. Plus, being descended from Mozilla, it would be immune to all of the GNOME/KDE infighting that's going on. It's really a shame that there's so much politics going on among all of the OSS organisations-cum-factions. That's why I prefer Mozilla based browsers; their developers don't get embroiled in "Konq sux! Galeon rulez!" flamewars. GNOME and KDE people who say that they're neutral soon show which side they're neutral on!
  • by IamTheRealMike ( 537420 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @04:12PM (#6541102)
    What a load of rubbish. It's the default in Red Hat Rawhide because it's the default in the next version of Gnome, that was not a decision red hat made.

    As for the reasons why it is the default in Gnome, that might have something to do with the fact that MPG is co-operative and convinced the gnome release team he was aligned with their goals, as opposed to the Galeon team, who did not.

  • by intermodal ( 534361 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @04:12PM (#6541103) Homepage Journal
    I haven't had stability problems with it, and I rather like it better than Mozilla itself. I know it could use some work, but I find it disappointing to know that my favorite browser is being dropped...
  • by ChiChiCuervo ( 2445 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @04:17PM (#6541122) Homepage
    I think people wouldn't be dropping galeon if they core team were vigilant with maintaining the UI from version to version.

    For instance, I used to be able to have my tabs on the bottom, then i couldn't, then i could, and now i can't again. I vastly prefer galeon's tabs to mozilla's, being one of those features that keeps me with galeon even now, but i'm sick of this on again , off again feature.

    Another on again, off again feature I like was the ability to right click on the handle of one of my custom toolbars and opening the entire folder in tabs. They recently re-added this feature in the bookmarks menu, but I really miss it on the toolbar itself.

    Frankly, if there were another browser that had a similar level of control of bookmarks and custom toolbars, I'd switch to it in a second. Nothing else comes quite that close to galeon's level of customizibility.

    I just wish Galeon wasn't so flighty in it's feature set.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 26, 2003 @04:17PM (#6541127)
    This is lovely.

    Their MANIFESTO:
    "While Mozilla has an excellent rendering engine, its default XUL-based interface is considered to be overcrowded and bloated"

    The interview:
    "We still have problems dealing with the bad image we have of 1.3 as a featureless POS"
    "We've come a long way after hitting rock-bottom"

    So, what is that 'problem' ? Let's see, what they want to do:
    "Dump the albatross called bonoboui"
    "getting rid of the pain called bonoboui"
    "Getting rid of libbonoboui. I hate libbonoboui."

    But what IS bonobo UI ? Bonoboui is the UI widget set they used, instead of XUL:
    "While quite nice for static UI, it's painful for dynamic menus and toolbars"
    "Using it has caused a lot of harm to galeon"

    This is funny shit. Their MANIFEST says that they wnt to do a XUL-less browser because XUL sucks (they know better), and their replacement sucks two orders of magnitude more.

    I have an idea for them: why don't they use XUL for the interface ? It is quite nice for both static _and_ dynamic UI... And I know a couple of XUL browser that are really fast. And modular. And extensible. And maintained.
  • Re:Oh yeah (Score:3, Interesting)

    by sremick ( 91371 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @04:18PM (#6541132)
    Not sure if this is really flamebait or not, but for argument's sake, I wanted to post a screenshot of MY Galeon, showing the fonts are just fine:

    http://vtbsd.net/galeon_shot.png [vtbsd.net]

    This is Galeon 1.3.7 on FreeBSD 5.1, with all ports kept up-to-date.
  • by Xoro ( 201854 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @04:21PM (#6541151)

    Couldn't agree more about HP's destructive anti-feature craze. It's even hurt Galeon. Where did "Save Session" go? Where did "File Bookmark" go? I use Gnome because I find KDE too circus (cirKus?) -like, but man, they've got to leave *some* features in.

    Some other silliness:

    • No float on top feature to Metacity? Too complicated?
    • Ugly list of useless "put on workspace" choices (also Metacity) because nested listing is "unintuitive"?
    • New GTK file-save box -- much-needed upgrade but no way to access .(dot)files? Sure, it's much cleaner when they're hidden, but it meant I had to type in a filename five levels deep just to point my program to it.
    • And you said it about Epiphany. I've seen more features on a kiosk.

    I hope the galeon people take getting dropped as a liberation rather than a punishment. Let them get back to making a great browser rather than trying to conform to someone's warped interpretation of monkey-computer interface guidelines.

  • by juhaz ( 110830 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @04:22PM (#6541158) Homepage
    Since when RedHat has any obligation to follow Gnome defaults when deciding what software goes into THEIR distribution?

    It's damn certainly RH's choice, and I'm going to be DAMN pissed if Galeon will be missing from RH X or whatever it's going to be called.

    And what comes to Gnome release teams "goal" these days it seems to be to target people with iq10, fine, they may find most potential users there, but at the same time that totally alienates more tech-knowledgeable people, how do they think they're going to get any more developers if those said developers can't even use their own software because it's too damn braindead?

    Most people that write software for free do so primarily because they wish to use it themselves, not because they wish to make world better place to live.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 26, 2003 @04:42PM (#6541227)
    I have used Galeon since the 0.x days however since 1.2 version I have had Galeon crash on me numerous times running under KDE. The problem is Galeon's interaction with KDE's aRTs (sound daemon). None of the crashes happen with e.g. Mozilla or Phoenix and Galeon people are unwilling/unable (?) to fix Galeon to play along with aRTs. There are numerous bugs filed in Bugzilla about the issue but the developers mark it "NOTABUG" ie. not a Galeon bug. Regardless of whose bug is it it is shame that Galeon people haven't been able to address the issue. I have thus moved on to Mozilla Firebird.
  • by Alethes ( 533985 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @04:52PM (#6541273)
    From Final Modules List for the GNOME 2.4 Desktop Release [gnomedesktop.org]:
    There was a lot of vocal support for Epiphany on the mailing list, but little for Galeon. So, the consensus points to Epiphany. That was due to a number of factors: The Epiphany project goals seem to be better aligned with GNOME's goals, the Galeon developers do not seem to be 100% behind GNOME's goals; Epiphany has had regular releases for GNOME 2.3.x; the Epiphany hackers are working within the project to define standards and code for toolbar editing and other functionality, etc. While there are a lot of reservations about offending the Galeon hackers, and great disappointment that the two projects have not been able to cooperate, Epiphany does seem to have the consensus, and make the most technical sense. That is not to say that Epiphany is without faults, or that Galeon is not excellent software -> we do need to make a choice at some stage: Right now there is strong support to add a browser to the Desktop release, and strong support for that browser to be Epiphany.
  • by ttk ( 161270 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @04:54PM (#6541280)
    The Galeon developers basically do not wish to follow the Gnome HIG. This is certainly fine - and Galeon is a good browser - but I'd say it's pretty reasonable that an application that is so central to a desktop should also follow the common guidelines set up for the core apps.

    This is simply not true. We are trying to follow the HIG as much as we can, but when it comes to a choice between blindly following the HIG or a feature we feel is essential, we'll probably always be choosing the feature.

    It's Human Interface Guidelines, we are still allowed to think for ourselves.

  • Is it just me... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by .com b4 .storm ( 581701 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @05:26PM (#6541446)

    Or is this "interview" really not all that interesting? For someone, such as myself, who has not followed Galeon closely for the last year or so, it would help to provide some concrete background on the problems they've had. Instead, this so-called interview is basically comprised of two topics, rehashed over and over: libbonobo sucks, and Crispin 0wnz.

    This interview sheds very little light on Galeon's past, present, or future. It seems mostly like a page full of bitching by the main developers, with little substance. Tell us about the recent history of Galeon, good and bad, the direction the project will hopefully take in the coming months, etc. "We need to get back to 1.2" is not very helpful, especially for people who don't follow Galeon closely.

  • by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @06:01PM (#6541594)


    > the Galeon developers do not seem to be 100% behind GNOME's goals

    The same can be said for the newsreader Pan: the author ripped all the GNOME stuff out a while back.

    I wonder whether this might be the beginning of a trend, and kind of hope it is. IMO GNOME 2 has been a major step in the wrong direction.

  • by justsomebody ( 525308 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @06:45PM (#6541819) Journal
    And that might be the reason.

    Full moherproof browser (epiphany) for default, and yours on demand for people who need features.

    As for me I'm very pleased with Epiphany, dumped Galeon just because I don't wanna bother with features and second reason are bookmarks

    What default browser needs is not features it's higher usability as a non brainer.
  • Re: Galeon RIP (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @08:10PM (#6542146)


    > I had almost daily crashes with early 1.3 releases. At least since 1.3.5 things are shaping up, I only get an occasional crash now and then, about once a week or so. Version 1.2.x was rocksolid here, I could keep the same window on my desktop for weeks without having it crash.

    I think there's a very slow memory leak in 1.2, since it gradually eats memory and crashes on me very predictably every 2-3 weeks or so.

    Of course my usage habits may be somewhat out of spec. Once they introduced tabs I almost completely quit using bookmarks. Right now I have 1-5 Galeon windows open on each of 12 virtual desktops, and 1-50 tabs open in each window. I may be asking for trouble.

    Of course that makes it a big pain when I have to restart Galeon and let it reload a few hundred pages over an unreliable telephone link.

    > No, the other way around. If you open a link in new tab, without automatically jumping to it, it still gives focus to the new tab. It should keep the current tab in focus, which for example will give you a PageDown on hitting the spacebar (very usefull when reading /. and skimming the comments in a story).

    I'm not quite sure what you're describing, but it sounds similar to the one thing that I find most annoying other than the crashes. I like to read a story, opening interesting links in other tabs as I go, and then read the tabs when I've finished the story. But apparently the scrolling focus is lost whenever another tab finishes loading. I use the arrow keys to scroll down a story, but something happening in another tab will make it lose focus and I have to click the page or the scollbar to make the scrolling work again.

  • by RdsArts ( 667685 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @08:11PM (#6542153) Homepage Journal
    Gnome is rapidly becoming a major clusterfuck these days. Which is a shame, because the only other real option is selling yourself to SCO (aka... Trolltech's owner), and subjecting yourself to the full GPL just to write desktop apps, or paying SCO $3000 for every developer.

    *looks at his XFCE 4 desktop*

    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your GNOME and KDE.

    RC 3 is due out tomorrow, why not give it a try? You might be pleasantly suprised.
  • Almost Perfect (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Markus Registrada ( 642224 ) on Saturday July 26, 2003 @10:29PM (#6542635)
    It's funny -- of the "top 3 bugs" each developer lists, I have encountered only a couple. Of the top unimplemented features they list, I don't want any of them. To me, the only really critical bug was crashing within a few minutes every time I turned on Javascript, but they might have licked that in the 14 July snapshot I run. After that, being able to right-click on an image and get a menu reliably (not just after the third try) would help. The only "new" feature that would make much difference for me is honoring the Gnome emacs key-binding preference. (ctrl-A, E, N, P, B, F, K, particularly.) That worked fine in the 1.2 series, and is the only feature I miss from it.

    I have to admit that I'd like to see the per-site preference behavior of cookies extended to Javascript, image loading and animation, font forcing, color forcing, zoom, etc. Probably the most valuable improvement would be a way to use a different text editor entirely, in another window if necessary. But, mainly, it now has almost exactly the feature set I need in a browser, and hardly anything else. I wish it would stay that way.

    I've been using 1.3 since the beginning, and it was pretty sucky for a while, but I'm glad they did what they did. The version I'm using now is so much nicer, all around, than Epiphany, that it is clearly only politics that made Gnome switch to the latter. I'll never switch, because the Epiphany developers are a bunch of ideologues who have announced they will never add the features that make the browser useful and usable for me.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday July 27, 2003 @12:09AM (#6542881)
    The dialog you may have seen is a ximian patch to GTK, and is certainly not the final incarnation of the GTK file save dialog.

    Umm...this has been around for like 2 years now, right? And while it isn't perfect, its worlds better than the default dialog. Why in the world hasn't it become the default, at least until someone writes something better?

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