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Standard Brewing For PC Card Replacement 'Newcard' 187

Posted by timothy
from the standard-flux dept.
winston_pr writes "The details on the successor to the PC Card is starting to take form with details being given in this article at Nikkei Japan. The standard is scheduled to be finalized in 2003, while the first PCs with NEWCARD slots are expected to ship in the second half of 2004. Will this mean the end of all these crazy SD-card connection based peripherals?"
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Standard Brewing For PC Card Replacement 'Newcard'

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  • by baywulf (214371) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @10:58AM (#6744216)
    same as the old.
  • Summary! (Score:5, Funny)

    by RumpRoast (635348) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @10:59AM (#6744224)
    In new computers, things will be smaller and faster.

    Thanks!
    • Re:Summary! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by ackthpt (218170) * on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:33AM (#6744555) Homepage Journal
      In new computers, things will be smaller and faster.

      No...

      In summary you will now have to ditch all your old grotty cards to get *NEW* cards! New Mobo, new cards, full employment, a chicken in every garage, etc. And you thought you actually had choice in these things?

      Further summarized...

      All your base are belong to us!

      Yes, this means crap like WinModems which may be the only choice for the new standard paint buyers further into a corner, as manufacturers could give a care less as they try to compete in a highly commoditized market.

      Whee.

      • Re:Summary! (Score:4, Funny)

        by Lionel Hutts (65507) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @12:05PM (#6744962) Journal
        Yes, this means crap like WinModems which may be the only choice for the new standard paint buyers further into a corner, as manufacturers could give a care less as they try to compete in a highly commoditized market.

        This is the first post I've ever seen that quoted "All your base are belong to us" in which that wasn't even the most bizarre sentence. A mixed metaphor, a mangled cliche interbred with another cliche, a conclusion that simply does not follow from the antecedent, and an example with no logical connection to the assertion being demonstrated -- all in 39 words.
  • Old news (Score:2, Informative)

    by philask (216894)
    Yawn.

    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/21/2029 22 9&mode=thread&tid=137

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0302/03022103pcmcia ne wcard.asp
  • by ded_guy (698956)

    NEWCARD (development codename)

    Yeah, we all know that when it's finalized they'll call it cardXP.
  • crazy (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Boromir son of Faram (645464) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:02AM (#6744254) Homepage
    Isn't this the wrong way to go about it? Usually the hardware is built and then the standard is derived from that, guaranteeing compatability. What if the standard requires something that turns out impossible to implement? Everything will be broken. We'd never have cool tech like FireWire, PCI, and SDRAM if hardware producers had to wait for a standard before they even started working on products.
    • I may be off base here, but isn't that basically what happened with 802.11a--that it turned out they couldn't implement it? Then .11b was the toned-down but feasible standard?
    • Re:crazy (Score:4, Informative)

      by Trigun (685027) <evil@evilempire . a th.cx> on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:14AM (#6744362)
      The 'standard' is being built upon already established standards, specifically PCI express and USB 2.0. The connection interface will have to implement both, whereas the card itself will only have to implement one of the two.

      The remainder of the standard has to do with tolerances for the connection interface, something that should be standardized to prevent rogue cards burning out your bus, or creating too much interference. They also deal with size and shape, as well as trying to standardize the exection mechanism (although this is only a suggestion at this point).
  • by yourruinreverse (564043) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:04AM (#6744267)
    Will this mean the end of all these crazy SD-card connection based peripherals?

    No, of course not. It just adds one more peripheral standard.
    • by ackthpt (218170) * on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:51AM (#6744769) Homepage Journal
      Will this mean the end of all these crazy SD-card connection based peripherals?

      No, of course not. It just adds one more peripheral standard.

      Also means getting another pocket or drawer hold more crap in. Smaller, yes, but more diverse.

      "Ah, this model uses Newcard and SD and has an adapter for PCMCIA so you can plug in another adapter for your CF card, blah, blah, blah."

      Funny how more octopus-like compact electronics get when you finally have everything hooked up to it.

    • Nope, SD is still way smaller than the Type 2 NewCard. It's also a fairly standard on PocketPC and many brands of camera now.

      I don't think that SD on notebook was ever intended for expansion, only for plugging in your camera film or using SD "as floppy".
  • by goombah99 (560566) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:04AM (#6744268)
    Can some informed person speculate as to what the purpose of a PC card is in the day of Firewire800? Does a PC card have better bus access or something? Is it a form factor issue (e.g. its not dangling but is sort of part of the laptop?) With laptops getting smaller and PC-cards tending to get larger and bulging outside the chasis, the form factor issue looks less distinct to me. so why PC cards?
    • by abhisarda (638576) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:29AM (#6744522) Journal
      because there are millions of laptops that are not equipped with USB 2 ports. Thats why there are PCMCIA USB 2 cards.
      Many laptops have only 1 USB port( those made before 2002).
      If you already have a USB mouse, where can you plug in that webcam, USB external keyboard etc?
      Many laptops made before 2002 do not have Firewire ports. If you want to use the iPod and camcorders, you need a Firewire PCMCIA card.

      Take 56k modems and 10/100 ethernet ports. Again, older laptops do not have them onboard. You need PCMCIA cards for that.
      Then you have the case of wi-fi. Unless your laptop is a Centrino, there is no way of going wifi without a wireless card.

      Firewire 800 is "only" in the Macs now. It might come to the PC soon but it will take a while to come to laptops(~6 months). Firewire 400 is the norm for laptops.
      • by Anonymous Coward
        If you already have a USB mouse, where can you plug in that webcam, USB external keyboard etc?

        Into your USB Hub. I thought that was the entire point of USB, in fact.

        A new hardware standard is not going to help anyone with an old laptop either; they won't have NEWCARD slots to plug in their USB 2.0 and Firewire NEWCARD's anyway, will they?

        You've missed the point of new standards like NEWCARD completely.
      • Then you have the case of wi-fi. Unless your laptop is a Centrino, there is no way of going wifi without a wireless card.

        Not quite true. There are a lot of laptops with mini-pci slots which accept an 802.11 card.

        TTFN
      • by nvrrobx (71970)
        I purchased my Dell Inspiron 4150 in February of 2003. It only has one USB 1.1 port. It also does not have FireWire (I bought an SIIG FireWire PCCard)

        Something to note on laptops with FireWire: For a lot of devices (like my ADS Pyro 1394 WebCam) you still need an external, powered hub. The laptop does not provide 12V of power to FireWire devices.

        FireWire is _not_ a norm on laptops!
    • I'm not quite sure I'm informed, but I'll give it a shot:

      Firewire 800 is only 800 M*bits*/s ~ 100M*bytes*/s
      from the article is seems that one way data flow is 250 M*bytes*/s
      so it appears to be about 2.5x as fast. That's one advantage.

      Having a small harddrive (or other small peripheral) that you could access at high speeds (not a lot around, I know: but think of future advances), that wouldn't be dangling around outside your computer. And since laptops are notable not very expandable, but *supposed* to be
      • Agreed.

        NewCard is simply an external module for NextGen PCI-Express devices. Firewire was never meant to be a system bus.

        The USB2.0 based stuff is a nice extension. The fact is that they really don't need firewire in these instances when it's relatively low-bandwidth and no daisy chaining is required.
    • by dasunt (249686) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:41AM (#6744608)

      I can't speak for other laptop users, but the reason I like PCMCIA cards is that they provide an easy way to swap in and out components, fairly standard (way easier to find a PCMCIA modem then a firewire modem), and the integrated card is harder to break then a dongle, thus leading to the 'bulge' that you speak of for firewire, network, etc cards.

      It would be nice (but I'm not expecting) for the new standard to give the PC Card Redux enough room where it can fit, say, an RJ-45 or two squeezed together USB or firewire ports without a dongle. Instead of a flat card like we have in PCMCIA or PC Card, it would be more of a square peggish looking card. OTOH, the flatter cardbus cards we have today are perfect for miniature hard drives, and memory sticks still aren't made in the largest size as the miniature hard drives.

      As for myself with my old laptop, I'm going to check out the Xircom realport cards. :)

      • Firewire800 would be a cool idea, and to eliminate the bulge, why not add a new "compact card" interface standard to firewire800?

        You can then have your internal, PC-card-style card, except it connects internally to a firewire800 bus. No unsightly bulges.

        You could make an external adapter to plug the cards into on machines that only had external firewire ports; such a system could even be used to bridge (albeit clumsily) new "firewire compact card" devices into a machine with standard PC cards: add firew
        • Apple learned it's lesson about introducing competing standards. Adopting PCI and other standard PC components has provided a definite benefit of cost.

          Apple wants to stay "PC component" compatible. Introducing a competing "next-gen" PC-Card standard would only cause problems.

          Beyond that the biggest benefit of Firewire over USB is it's daisy chaining capability (peer-to-peer) capability. This really can't be exploited in small expansion cards.

          Firewire is here to stay (as was SCSI before). However, I w
          • Beyond that the biggest benefit of Firewire over USB is it's daisy chaining capability (peer-to-peer) capability. This really can't be exploited in small expansion cards.

            The advantage to firewire over "nexgen" or whatever the new standard for PC cards is that you wouldn't need a seperate bus protocol and all the support for it.

            Plus the cards would be usable outside of the slot by a simple adapter on an external firewire bus, enabling backwards compatibility with non-firewire PC card systems (pc card
            • In the article, they mentioned that external "docks" for computers would become available. This is effectively what your describing with firewire.

              The big difference is that the NextCard is actually a direct extension of the systems expansion bus. You cannot accomplish this with Firewire as it was never intended to be the systems main way of expansion.
    • Features sell products... standards can help with uniform driver support. I completely agree with you about their practical benefit. This wouldn't influence me at all.
    • Form factor. There's a big difference between a card you can leave in the laptop (providing extra ports, or with a WiFi antenna sticking out, etc) and attaching a USB or IEEE1394 dongle (particularly if you don't have a nearby flat surface handy), and then possibly having to attach something else to that.

      Of course, PC Cards are more important to me as someone whose primary laptop is a 486SX25 with a single PCMCIA slot :-)
  • by kevinbarsby (558876) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:05AM (#6744277)
    I hope they avoid similar problems that plagued ISA / PCI motherboards.

    As I recall there were a lot of timing issues with the PCI / ISA bridge which affected system performance.
  • yeah, whatever... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by TWX (665546) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:05AM (#6744284)
    Most modern laptops seem to come with an array of smartmedia, compact flash, USB, Firewire, integrated 802.11, and integrated ethernet, so I don't see what the big deals is. Granted, it's nice to be able to swap things into the computer, bit if excessive numbers of dongles are going to be required, just give me the device in USB or firewire, and let the device be the dongle. That way I don't have to carry around this metal wafer-type box too.

    the only two PCMCIA devices that I use on my laptop regularly (which is two years old or more) is the wireless ethernet adapter, which doesn't have a dongle as such, and the compact flash reader, because the laptop is too old to have these features built in. Next unit I buy will probably have them integrated.
    • Look on the bright side of using a wireless Ethernet card on PCMICA. When the semi-annual new 802.11x standard comes out, you just buy a new card, instead of replacing a laptop with WiFI built in. :)
    • The NewCard represents somewhat of a paradigm shift. It's effectively directed at ALL segements of the computer marketplace. Basically you would have a very modular capability that could easily be moved between notebooks, tablets, and desktops. In the case of the USB2.0 based stuff, it could even pop-up in handheld devices like PocketPC/Palm and future eBook readers.

      The NewCard will also add capabilities to notebooks that simply weren't possible before using Card-Bus. For example, laptop graphics could
  • by blcamp (211756) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:06AM (#6744288) Homepage
    Someday, the peripheral that hardware and software makers may want on all PCs is the Credit Card reader.

    Want your next Windows Update? Please insert your Credit Card into the reader. What, this is Linux? SCO needs another swipe of your card, please.

    Why stop there? I can see it now: "CNN... the most trusted... and expensive... name in news."

  • by nurb432 (527695) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:07AM (#6744298) Homepage Journal
    Hmmm so PCMCIA cards are being phased out next year .. and PCI slots are already on the gone list for next year ( express PCI ) ...

    I guess they need to make everything obsolete to sell more hardware and keep the PC market afloat.

    Next round of software will be the same: It will require some special hardware components only available in the new machines ( can you say 'trusted computing'? )

    Bah.
    • Next round of software will be the same: It will require some special hardware components only available in the new machines ( can you say 'trusted computing'? )

      Next round of proprietary software may be the same, yes; but I doubt my 4 years old 400MHz powerbook will be able to run gnu/linux with free software before it physically breaks (few years more?).
      • Future Legal Issues (Score:5, Interesting)

        by nurb432 (527695) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:32AM (#6744548) Homepage Journal
        While that may be true today, dont be suprised if in the near future the 'homeland security' department will mandate you use 'approved hardware and software' before you can get online. And use of anything other will be considered criminal...

        Then watch it expand to other conutries..

        • Why stop at conutries? I say we take it all the way to the coconutries?

          --
          What the fuck?
        • 'approved hardware and software' before you can get online.

          Now that our infomation is in the cross-hairs, a security-regulated Internet will be much much more dangerous than other forms of regulation, such as that imposed on cars. While regulation on cars can be argued for safety reasons (tempered glass is a good idea, for example), I don't see this argument regarding information. The only reason for a security-regulated Internet is government empowerment. This is something to very seriously keep in mi
    • Yeah man, my 8 bit ISA cards and MFM drives still work just fine, all PC hardware should be maufactured so I can still use them!
    • by Microlith (54737)
      Yeah let's NEVER update the technologies we use.

      133MHz PCI is good for everyone, forever!

      8MHz ISA is the most anyone needs!

      Any of that NEW stuff is just a thinly veiled attempt to STEAL OUR RIGHTS AWAY FROM US AND MAKE US SLAVES.

      *cough*
    • I guess they need to make everything obsolete to sell more hardware and keep the PC market afloat.

      The Pentium 90 I bought almost ten years ago had PCI slots in it. PCI has been a performance bottleneck for years already -- AGP slots have been standard in desktops for years, because PCI graphics cards just couldn't handle the necessary throughput.

      This is not artificial "planned obsolescence"--it is actual obsolescence.

    • Consumers make products obsolete. Believe me, most companies would prefer to put out the same shit every year and pocket R&D money.

      Rather, your just looking at the evolution of computer technology. It's actually a lot better these days. In the beginning buying a Computer carried the risk that your entire platform would become obsolete without possibility of migration (Commodore 64, Atari, Apple2, etc...)

      Ultimately, the PCI Express/NewCard is meant to bring a level of convergence between desktops an
  • More info: (Score:5, Informative)

    by cK-Gunslinger (443452) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:08AM (#6744306) Journal
    Links:

    PC Mag [pcmag.com]
    Extreme Tech [extremetech.com]
  • Pet Peeve (Score:2, Insightful)

    by CGP314 (672613)
    It's a pet peeve of mine when people call something the New Whatever. It sounds like it is planned for obsolesce. Like they don't think anyone will use the standard or equipment after 3 years.
    • Re:Pet Peeve (Score:4, Insightful)

      by hey (83763) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:19AM (#6744419) Journal
      No that *my* pet peeve. Have about the "NT" (New Techology) OS? Not so new any more is it. I don't think New York and New Delhi are so new any more.
      Still users are aways calling files new this or new that. Then they come back in a year and say what's that?
      • Or art nouveau. And what about 20th Century Fox? Naming something "New" or giving it a date will only make it seem outdated faster.

        Mozart, Bedthoven and friends were smart. They called the modern music of their time "classical". That way, in the future it wouldn't seem outdated and stale, but rather elegant, refined, and well, classic.
      • Very true... but remember: .old is always old.
      • ...video resolutions

        Video Graphics Adapter
        Super Video Graphics Adapter
        eXtended Graphics Adapter
        Ultra eXtended Graphics Adapter

        And with the funny little laptops, they've sometimes added a W for Wide too... so you have something like

        Wide Ultra eXtended Graphics Adapter - WUXGA

        Face it, "super" VGA isn't that super anymore, and the resolution is just as easy to understand. Never understood why they started with those Friendly But Useless Abbriviations (FBUA) in the first place.

        Kjella
        • And with the funny little laptops, they've sometimes added a W for Wide too... so you have something like

          Wide Ultra eXtended Graphics Adapter - WUXGA


          Your Mum said my 16inch by 10inch WUXGA was a good size.
    • It's a pet peeve of mine when people call something the New Whatever. It sounds like it is planned for obsolesce.

      There's plenty of placenames that make the same mistake: Newtown, Newport, New Street, New Road etc. OK when it "just happened", but some of these places are planned towns from the 60s and 70s. Surely they would have known that one day their town wouldn't be "New".
  • NEWCARD??? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by barureddy (314276) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:11AM (#6744335)
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I have not noticed the bandwidth limits of my pcmcia card. Granted I don't run a gig-bit ethernet, video equipment (firewire takes care of it), or scsi cards, but I don't use my laptop to do that kind of stuff. What I have noticed is the slowness of my laptop hard drive, which will not be able to handle all this new bandwith anyways. Though it is always nice to have more bandwith and smaller cards, there are more important things that need to addressed.

    P.S.
    I hope this NEWCARD uses less power.
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Yeah, it's like NEWCOKE. That didn't even last 6 months in the market. Can we expect a re-release of PCMCIA Classic about 6 months after NEWCARD is released? :)
    • Yes, 3800 RPM drives do kinda suck. That's why 2.5" inch drives are now available in 5400RPM and 7200RPM.

      I've noticed that computer hardware does not advance altogether. One area surges ahead and then others catch up to take advantage. Three years ago, the main bus was holding everything hostage. Now it's the PCI bus that's really the slowest component. PCI-Express was built for expansion has reportedly has about 15 years of growth ponetential.

      The computers coming out in the next few years will be re
  • I mean, we have to buy new motherboards every couple of years anyway. Today's new pc owner only has a video cart installed in their AGP slot, a cpu and ram. Why not make GPUs socketed and just get rid of the slots?

    Most other peripherals can be attached externally via usb or firewire.

    • Because then ytou'd have craptastic mobo's like Intel Itanium made for nVidia chipset.

      Trust me, none of these companies would want to make something that simple.
    • Theres more to the video card than just the GPU, you'd need a new RAMDAC for higher resolutions and faster refresh rates and whatnot, and the memory interfaces video cards use get faster and faster, so that's probably not practical.

      But I'm with you in concept.

      I've always wondered why the northbridge and southbridge cant be socketed. What technically would prevent me from pulling the SiS 645dx chip out of the computer I'm using now, replace it with a pin compatable 648 that will let me use the fancy new H
    • I beleive you want an Nforce2 chipset it's not socketed but todays new PC owner dosent change out there video card. But otherwise slots are usefull for neatness sake if nothing else and high speed busses. The fastest external connector is firewire 800 at 100MB a sec half duplex (Not entirly sure ont hat bit) It cant deal with GigE speeds. PCI at base does 132MB a sec and can clock much faster and wider currently to around 1024MB a sec thats 4 GigE adapters running full out to get buss saturation. And m
    • 1. why even make it socketed? Just build it in completely. The card matches the MB anyway, and by the time a new card comes out, its gonna require AGP10x or a newer model CPU anyway.

      2. No because thats too much engineering for 1 company. Specialization is what is bringing all the great advancements. So as long as we can break out the video card, their will be more advancement.

      3. You are better knowing the price for each individual piece and paying for them individually then paying one lump sum. Th
  • Second half of 2004 is still some time away. I see all kind of devices around me in the shape of SD Cards or Sony Memory Stick, from modems to GPS cards. Mini Memory Stick works in my phone. It wouldn't be the first new standard that didn't make it because there was already something else that did the job and had the marketshare.

    Support a lawyer free internet top level domain
    Sign [douweosinga.com] the .ianal top level domain petition.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    People Can't Memorise Complex Irritating Acronyms
  • by simong_oz (321118) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:15AM (#6744376) Journal
    Heh, so much for RTF! I saw the words "Standard Brewing" in the subject and without bothering to read further immediately clicked through to a story I thought was going to be about one of my favourite subjects - beer! I was not amused ...
  • Headline (Score:3, Funny)

    by Mike Schiraldi (18296) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:15AM (#6744382) Homepage Journal
    Did anyone else read the headline and think this was about some kind of peripheral that calibrates beer-making machines?
    • Re:Headline (Score:3, Insightful)

      by MarkGriz (520778)
      I reread the headline several times, thinking "what the hell does brewing have to do with PC cards?"

      Mmmmmm..... Beeeerrrr.
    • No. Even if you're a drunken, blinded squirrel with Alzheimer's, it's impossible to read that headline that way.

      ***ALERT***
      Your blatantly obvious attempt at a +5 Funny moderation has been detected!
      ***ALERT***
  • by Anders (395) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:16AM (#6744388)
    I did not get further than "Standard Brewing" before I thought of RFC 2324 [faqs.org], namely the Hyper Text Coffee Pot Control Protocol.
  • steps (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Bubba-T (578601)
    Step one create a new standard and milk the licensing as long as your can.
    Step two repeat step one.

  • Now driver support will become even crappier since the same number of engineers will be split across NEWCARD and PCI versions of every new product for several years.

    I suggest that it be a licensing requirement for NEWCARD devices that the details of how to access the cards functionality be published.

    At least the open source community has a fighting chance of providing the kind of support that most card manufacturers ought to be.
  • Floppy disk: $.10
    CD-R: $.50
    256 MB SD Card: $50
    Wifi PCMIA card: $50
    Having to keep up with the standards: priceless

    For everything else, there is NewCard
  • Didja know... (Score:2, Offtopic)

    Do you know what's SOOOOO great about standards??

    There's sooooooo many to choose from!!

    (PoOO! Tang!!) Thankyou Thankyou. I'll be here all night.
  • by BigBadBri (595126) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @11:30AM (#6744525)
    will it talk NewSpeak?

    Doubleplusgood!

  • 'cos that is bound to be better and cheaper
  • NEWCARD supports both PCI Express and USB 2.0 as internal interfaces. While the slot (host) must provide both PCI Express and USB 2.0, the card only needs to implement one. As a result, there will be two types of cards: PCI Express cards directly connecting to the PCI Express interface, and USB cards directly connecting to the USB 2.0 interface.

    Okay, let me provide some predictions here and now. Manufacturers will create NEWCARD (the lamest code name since "Project Pink") slots which support either on

  • Naming scheme (Score:3, Informative)

    by gadwale (46632) on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @01:45PM (#6746193) Homepage
    This is a great naming scheme! I hope whoever came up with this name in the Marketing dept. got a good raise...

    NEWCARD 2 years later
    NEWERCARD soon
    NEWESTCARD and then
    NEWERTHANTHENEWESTCARD after that
    BRANDSPANKINNEWCARD a while later
    SHINYNEWCARD eventually
    NEWASCANBECARD

    At least it is better than Fullspeed, Highspeed and Doublespeed.

    -Adi Gadwale.
  • Anything with "new" in it's name is doomed, because soon it's no longer new and then the name is contradictory.
  • They neglect a lot of important things in these standards. Foremost, they neglect Linux when creating these standards. Most of these standards become proprietary licensed patents and the hardware they are based on them only has drivers written for Windows by the hardware manufacturers.

    Secondly, we need standards for things like CD/DVD burners, drives, and bus architectures and many other things that lately seem to more commonly cause hardware conflicts than not. I am having a conflict with my EHCI and OHCI
  • Another complaint (Score:3, Insightful)

    by netdemonboberb (314045) <`moc.oohay' `ta' `znomedten'> on Wednesday August 20, 2003 @03:49PM (#6747687) Homepage
    Why are all these standards created behind closed doors? They should get more input from users of their hardware.
  • Labeling technology with superlative names is a dumb idea. When it gets outdated it sounds stupid. When a 'supercollider' is surpassed, what do you call its replacement? When things NEWCARD is slow, creaky, and obsolete, what do you call it's replacement? NEWERCARD? EVENNEWERCARD? This isn't my idea, many people have said it. It's just a bad idea to name things in that fashion.

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