Galileo System To Include Jamming Capability 1026
CharonX writes "The Galileo project, an european alternative to the US based (and controlled) GPS system, recieved a severe setback today.
Under US pressure the EU has agreed to use transmission frequencies that could be easily disturbed or completely jammed by the US military. Since one of Galileo's main advantages had been being independent of goverment or military control, this is a severe setback. Read more here on Heise.de (German - ya might want to use the fish)" Some of the background on this had NATO being unhappy with some of the provisions of it as well - at the least military structure.
Article is flamebait (Score:-1, Interesting)
What can I say... (Score:2, Interesting)
Or a combination of GLONASS & GPS
Re:Unbelievable... (Score:5, Interesting)
You're worried about one side having an unfair advantage in war? That's just weird, man. There's no "fairness" in war. The US dictating to the EU how their nav sats should work, that's pretty lame. But the EU will be even more lame if they knuckle under.
What I want to know (Score:1, Interesting)
Hold on here... (Score:1, Interesting)
Naivity (Score:5, Interesting)
The whole thing has been presentet as being too good to be true, and guess what: it should then not be assumed to be true. The US has developend, evolved and maintained the GPS for about 30 years and it has cost a bit more than what EU has guesstimated.
Secondly it was always rather hazy just who should control Galileo and just what limitations should be in place; it was always this unclear "someone" in "the approporitate commission", which should alert anyone who didn't fall out of a tree yesterday of big corruption ahead. Those still in their diapers might be surprised of jamming capability; the rest of us should ne be.
The French have always been a big proponent but then again they have this massive penis envy with respect to the US.
I wonder (Score:5, Interesting)
However, if the US GPS system is difficult (or impossible?) to jam.. then this is definitely a bad idea. However, the US is only doing what any bully would do. Make sure no one ever gets in a position where it wont have to take his/her/its bullying. (yes mod me down for calling the US a bully.. but frankly when the article says the US 'pressured' the EU into changing the systems specs, it really means 'bullied')
Does anyone know if the US system can be jammed? Is china working on a similar system?
So, what frequencies cannot be jammed? (Score:2, Interesting)
Any signal from a satellite is going to be very weak -- the satallite is a long way away, our atmosphere attenuates the signals somewhat (which does depend on the frequency), and they cannot transmit with very much power to begin with (because they have limited solar power, and cooling is difficult to do in space.)
Any signal from a satellite can be jammed from the ground just by pumping a few thousand (or more) watts into that frequency in the general vicinity. This noise would overwhelm the weak signal from the satellite and drown it out.
It's also quite possible that any yahoo with a big dish and a few thousand watts to spare could jam an entire satellite by aiming the dish at the satellite and transmitting a few thousand watts on the the frequencies the satellite uses (especially the uplink frequencies.) This has happened recently [bbc.co.uk] and made worldwide news.
(Of course, I imagine that the only reason they never caught (?) the person (organization? government?) responsible is that they were in Cuba. This sort of jamming isn't trivial to track down, but I'm sure that it wouldn't take long.)
I'd expect GPS-type satellites to be more resistant to this sort of jamming (because I imagine that they don't really use uplink frequencies at all) but one could certainly jam the control frequencies (which may or may not be needed often) and one could probably interfere with the transmitter by flooding it with noise on it's own channel (I guess ... my experience with RF electronics is limited.)
I doubt that the government would flood the satellite with noise, however -- I suspect they'd just use equipment to jam the local area.
Re:NOT obviously the US (Score:5, Interesting)
the US government wet their pants at that prospect.
Re:Unbelievable... (Score:1, Interesting)
Why should other countries have the same military advantages as the US? Should the US willingly give up its military superiority?
That's the kind of "Balance of Power" thinking that got Europe into WW1.
I know it's absolutely counter-intuitive and it sounds monstrous, but only the US and people we like (like Britain and Isreal) should have technology like GPS and especially Nukes.
It sounds fucked up, but that is the only way to prevent their catastrophe. If everybody's equal *somebody's* gonna feel froggy and jump. This madness is very deliberate, and it works.
Re:This is a good thing (Score:3, Interesting)
it just depends on which side of the border you're sitting on, sure this must be great news if you're american and would like to keep other countries under your (military)control for the foreseeable future as well. if you're an army commander in any other country then you'll see some very good reasons to not rely on american gps for everything(especially if one of the potential scenarios to defend in is usa attacking for whatever reason).
for now there has been little point in starting to rely on gps for any other military(or other critical crisis equipment) than for usa's own military, since there's no guarantee it will work precisely when you need it most(during an attack on nearby axis of evil country or maybe even your own country). missiles can be guided by other means also(and really the biggest hurdle is just getting the missile to fly that distance).
if it's jammable by usa on whim then there's absolutely no point in wasting that money in it(and i really don't see _any_ reason for india and china to contribute then).
Re:Article is flamebait (Score:5, Interesting)
Guess that wouldn't always be the case, but it is a bit ironic.
sPh
disapointing (Score:2, Interesting)
Sad day for the entire world (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, this is a terrible setback for the project, for the EU, and for the rest of the world. Galileo might work and everything, sure, but when push comes to shove the US will have full powers to unplug it as if it were its own, or probably worse, to keep it running sending bogus information. This entire "imposing our system on the world" goes against the US' usual free markets and options discourse, but hell, they are usually hipocritical about it anyway.
I, for one, am afraid I cannot welcome our old-school dictatorial global positioning controller overlords. Real bummer.
The sky is not falling (Score:2, Interesting)
Isn't it unfair? Doesn't it give the US too much power?
How about this... we finally find bin Laden's hideout in Afghanistan. He's tracked down while traveling in unfamiliar territory (to him). Wouldn't it be nice if we could jam that wonderful "open" GPS system that he's using to find his way somewhere else? Wouldn't it also be in the EU's best interest for someone (the US included) to catch bin Laden?
How about a situation where N. Korea or Iran launches a GPS guided nuclear missile. Wouldn't it be nice if the US could jam the GPS system in time to keep that warhead from reaching its destination?
Can't you think of other situations where this would be helpful?
I'm all for open systems and making technology accessible to the public, but sometimes there are good reasons for controlling that technology.
Re:Well obviously the US (Score:2, Interesting)
Right now, this is mostly against Europe, though. The yen and the yuan have been kept low thanks to China's and Japan's heavy, heavy buying of American treasury bonds to keep their currencies weaker, since they depend a lot more on exports than the US does (hell, Japan and China ARE export-driven economies).
Re:Unbelievable... (Score:3, Interesting)
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Israel [reference.com]
Re:Policy of hypocrisy (Score:5, Interesting)
Take terrorism. In England people were murdered for decades by IRA terrorists funded in no small part by Americans. Suddenly the Twin Towers are attacked and terrorism is the new world evil and the IRA funding via NorAid is stopped.
Welcome to the wonderful world of hypocrisy.
(more) Comprehesible Explanation (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:US Control is not a "setback" (Score:3, Interesting)
And who created the terrorists? Why, the good 'ol USA. The people that brought you Saddam Hussain (ex-CIA assassin and short-time puppet ruler of Iraq), the fantasy nation of Israel, many fun-time bombings by the IRA, the Cuban missile crisis (laugh and laugh again as the US nearly destrys the world by objecting to Russia having a handful of missiles as close to America as America's hundreds of warheads are to Russia), frollics in Vietnam, the friendly WMD of Pakistan, not forgetting most-favoured trading nation China and its ongoing attepts to crush the kingdoms of the Himalaya and its own democratic movements, the attepted assassination of democratically elected President of Venezuela (that happened during Gulf War II so if you missed it, just wait for the repeat), arms to Iran, arms to Iraq, arms to Nicaragua, arms for drugs, arms for cash, ARMS FOR ANYTHING!
This century only: a corrupt US-backed African government free with almost any African sub-Saharan country.
America's government is available in the shops or by phone: just dial Washington I-HAVE-OIL and ask for "Donald" for low, low prices on West Nile Virus, Anthrax, Botulism, and a host of other great diseases. Have your credit card details ready.
Yes, thank God for the US, without it who would you turn to in war-time?
I bought weapons of mass destruction from America and their after-sales service was second-to-none: they even sent over CIA agents to help "calibrate" the weapons when I fired them at Iranians. This saved a lot of time when I gassed my own civilian population later. I wouldn't buy E. coli off anyone else." Mr S. H., Iraq
TWW
hello (Score:1, Interesting)
If you can't beat 'em, "join" 'em (Score:3, Interesting)
What about this idea... (Score:3, Interesting)
Fuckers.
It should be as long as US foots Euro defense bill (Score:3, Interesting)
Despite the present ill feeling between the US and Europe, let's not forget some basic facts.
a) It is the US Navy that makes world trade possible. American domination of the deep blue sea is ultimately the engine driving containerships everywhere.
We take free trade for granted but really free trade and free travel across the oceans is because the oceans are essentially American, and, under American rule, travel across the oceans are not taxed or restricted.
There's no guarantee that a patchwork of powers would do anything different or better. Certainly the Europeans historically were a lot worse.
Maybe the British could share with the Germans the same way they did in 1870-1914.
b) It is the US Army and US Air Force that provide stability in Europe. What happens in Europe if the US pulls out? How long do France and Germany remain cozy? Or, better still, what is Europe like if Germany has the bomb, or what about Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, etc?
Yes, the Europeans may not like Americans that much, and, Americans may not like the Europeans that much, but, fundamentally, the reasons and advantages of maintaining the transatlantic alliance remain sound.
Ultimately, the rising muslim and anti-semetic populations in europe, coupled with an overall decline in population, will demand an american break from that old continent.
But, until that time, NATO stands.
Re:Close, but not quite. (Score:2, Interesting)
But we, being the citizens of that nation, are ultimately responsible for its behavior
i think the point the parent was trying to make was that the "citizens" DON'T have the power to be "responsible" for its behavior. the corporations - or, rather, in a Better Time, what a President (was it Eisenhower?) called it at that time, "Military Industrial Complex", are the ones in charge.
fully support civil disobedience with a sledgehammer re: Diebold voting machines
the problem here is that there is not much you CAN do about it either. are you really going to take a sledgehammer to them? you'll end up in jail, catching AIDS from being fucked in the ass by the prison population that the corporations dont give a shit about because they cant afford to buy anything anyway. civil disobedience? in this "political climate"? say hello to Guantanamo. the point is that the parent suggests -- and i agree -- that there is NOTHING any individual can do to really make a diffrence now
Re:Not even close (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Unbelievable... (Score:3, Interesting)
are the only EU nations with nukes, and the
British are our pet poodles. That means that
France is the seed from which a future nuclear
superpower Europe will grow. The U.S. wants
to remain the worlds only superpower. China
and Europe are the only threats to that
status. Therefore, PRC and France are the
only real enemies of the U.S.
Re:US Military, not EU (Score:3, Interesting)
The US has unfortunately been caught empire-building, but we also operate as a kind of police force. We brought this 9/11 shit on ourselves, and many of the things we've done in the world in response to it are therefore ridiculous. But, not everything we do is simple greed. Usually, greed is only a part of it :P
Re:Rough Translation by me :) (Score:4, Interesting)
Because the USA has a bigger army and is actively trying to stop us from making a common army of our own. I have to admit, I hate the idea of losing our national independence, but if we have to lose it, I'd rather lose it to Bryssel than to Washington... Meaning, I'm starting to wonder if the idea of making EU a real nation actually has merit...
why disobey? (Score:2, Interesting)