Using the Real ntfs.sys Driver Under Linux

caseih writes "A very neat hack uses the real ntfs.sys driver (obtained from your own windows XP partition and used via a wine-like layer (borrowed from ReactOS) to mount an ntfs partion with full read/write access. While not an ideal solution and certainly not free as in speech, this is an ideal stop-gap measure for many people trying out linux. I think that we'll probably see this in Knoppix pretty soon."

Re:How about the other way around

[homer_ca]

Merry Christmas. Here you go:

Explore2fs [swin.edu.au]

Re:Fsckin' Great...

[proctorg76]

yes, that's exactly right. I've got one ntfs partition for windows and all my program files that'll have to be reinstalled anyway if windows goes down, a very large fat32 partition for all my "legitimate backup copies" of my cds and dvds, and then a small reiser for gentoo

Another legal way to deal with the driver

[unfortunateson]

It would not seem unreasonable for the ntfs driver to be copied to a USB key or other media to be used at boot time.

Optimally, like the other suggestions, this driver should be moved during config time, but I would be willing to load it my USB doohickey prior to booting Knoppix/Mandrake Live/whatevernix.

I have valid Windows NT/2000/XP licenses on my machine, or I wouldn't have the NTFS partition to begin with. Maybe that's not a guaranteed assumption, and IANAL, but I don't think it would put too many MS lawyers on alert if it were done that way.

Perhaps a copyright/license file stating "These files are to be used on computer systems with valid Windows NT/2000/XP licenses only." when they are copied to the USB Key.

Re:Linux File System?

[Wumpus]

Linux still runs on FAT32 itself

No, it doesn't. Linux supports a wide range of journalling file systems: ext3, JFS, ReiserFS, XFS, in addition to almost any filesystem known to man, INCLUDING native NTFS [sourceforge.net]

Shouldn't Linux be on something "better" than FAT32

It is.

...Or am I overlooking something (I'm not a Linux user...yet)?

You got your facts wrong, that's all.

Re:How about the other way around

[richie2000]

Sure.

For Windows NT 4.0 [tripod.com]
For Windows 95 [demon.co.uk]
For Windows NT/2000/XP [sourceforge.net]
For DOS, Windows 95/98/NT/2000/XP, OS/2, BeOS, MacOS... [penguin.cz]

Re:Linux File System?

[chill]

...Or am I overlooking something

Linux does NOT run on FAT32 as a native file system. It has options of EXT2, EXT3 (EXT2 + journaling), ReiserFS, XFS (from SGI), JFS (from IBM) and probably quite a few more. Yes, you could probably make it run from FAT32, if you tried.

EXT2 is similar to FAT32, whereas the others are similar in concept to NTFS -- journaling, ACLs, etc. Each has its own benefit.

Re:I'm not sure if we'll see it in knoppix

[setzman]

Um... I'm wondering here: How does Windows load ntfs.sys from an NTFS partition???

Probably the same way OS/2 loaded HPFS.IFS on HPFS partitions. The boot kernel had some kind of micro-HPFS driver that allowed the system access to certain folders on the HPFS partition, allowing it to load necessary drivers.

Re:I'm not sure if we'll see it in knoppix

[mystik]

The same way grub or lilo loads linux from a reiserfs or ext2/3 partition --- rudimentary read-only access is coded into the bootloader.

Re:I'm not sure if we'll see it in knoppix

[Nevo]

NTLDR does the dirty work.

NTLDR contains a mini-NTFS filesystem driver and mini registry parser. NTLDR reads the registry and determines all of the boot-start device drivers. NTLDR loads those drivers into RAM, then loads the kernel and the HAL.

NTLDR then passes control of the machine to the kernel, along with a pointer to the in-RAM loaded drivers so that the kernel can start those drivers.

You're overlooking something

[ColourlessGreenIdeas]

Linux doesn't use FAT32. OK; Linux CAN use FAT32, or it can use ext2fs (usual on 2.2, very fast, no journaling), ext3fs (compatible with ext2fs, journaling, a tad slower, the default for RedHat), reiserfs (Very fast, journaling, default on lots of distros and probably the most popular), or XFS (SGI's file system) or JFS (IBM's file system). All the improvements you're looking for are there now.

Re:OK... good

[Progman3K]

IANAE (I'm not an expert) BUT,

Wine is actually fast because it ISN'T an emulator, it's an implementation of Win32 on Linux, and ReactOS isn't an emulator either, so in both cases, you'd get pretty close (if not actual) native-speed performance.

You WOULD get a hit on memory consumption though, those modules need RAM, certainly.

Re:I'm not sure if we'll see it in knoppix

[short]

It is already done fully automatically exactly this way during .RPM installation.

Re:Fsckin' Great...

[blixel]

How did people get around this issue before Read/Write access to NTFS? Did they have a FAT32 partition or something that both of the OS installations shared?

Linux is my primary O/S. I only use Windows to uhh... well... I'm not sure what I use it for since I haven't booted to it in a couple of months. But I still have it on another partition.

Anyway - I have my external Firewire drives formatted as EXT3 and I use Mount Everything [mount-everything.com] to read/write to them under Windows. Not a free program though.

This is another solution [swin.edu.au] you can try for reading/writing to Linux partitions under Windows. This one IS free.

And one final idea [ntfs-linux.com], also not free - and probably rendered obsolete by today's announcement of this Captive project - but it's another source never the less. This is for reading/writing to NTFS partitions under Linux.

I'd like to give credit to the people who pointed out these links to me but it was a long time ago and I don't remember who they were.

Re:I'm not sure if we'll see it in knoppix

[Anonymous Coward]

> Surely it is illegal to copy the ntfs.sys driver

Not if you copy your own NTFS.SYS file and use it on the same machine. Copyright law also allows copying for "repair" purposes.

There is a commerical product that does exactly the same thing -- "NTFSDOS Professional" (not the same as the freeware NTFS for DOS) -- and they have not been sued by MS.

Re:See this in Knoppix real soon...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody is suggesting putting the binary on a CD. It is already on the users computer - so there is no need.

Re:I'm not sure if we'll see it in knoppix

[Anonymous Coward]

Format it as FAT32 under another OS (Linux or Win98). Windows will recoginize large FAT volumes, it just won't let you create them.

Re:Hack?

[polyp2000]

I am amazed that anyone reading articles on slashdot doesnt know the correct meaning of the word hack.

I suggest that you read here

http://www.jargon.8hz.com/jargon_23.html#SEC30

shame on you ... call yourself a geek ?

nick ...

Re:OK... good

[Malcolm Scott]

The 2.6.0 kernels have safe read/write support for NTFS. (Not complete support, but enough for most purposes AFAIK.)

Re:OK... good

[Minna Kirai]

Wine is actually fast because it ISN'T an emulator

The oft-repeated tagline "Wine is not an emulator" is false. It would only be true if the word "emulator" meant "hardware emulator".

It does not. Although most people think of CPU virtualization when they hear the word "emulator", that is not necessarily the case. According to dictionary definitions, WINE is emphatically an emulator.

Here's the defintion:

1. 3.
2. Computer Science. To imitate the function of (another system), as by modifications to hardware or software that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, execute the same programs, and achieve the same results as the imitated system.

Re:I'm not sure if we'll see it in knoppix

[caseih]

If you read the web page and try out the driver you'll find it does exactly this. It uses code from the ntfs project (libntfs) to grab the ntfs.sys file and copy it over to use it. Therefore no distribution of microsoft binaries is needed. If it can't find the driver on your hard drive, it can download it from microsoft.com from xp sp1 (which has some interesting legal implications).

Re:OK... good

[cxreg]

While its 'write-safe', the writes it can do is completely useless to most people.

"The only supported operation is overwriting existing files, without changing the file length. No file or directory creation, deletion or renaming is possible. Note only non-resident files can be written to so you may find that some very small files (500 bytes or so) cannot be written to."

Maybe using the windows NTFS driver this way will help provide enough debug info to complete this driver

Re:What about NT4 for non-x86 users?

[gamorck]

MIPS, PPC, and Alpha all had NT4 versions (fully. None of them made it to Windows 2000. The alpha version of win2k made it to Release Candidate 1 and was subsequently dumped by MS and Compaq.

Supporting Links:
http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/down loads/re commended/SP6/allSP6.asp
(Notice the inclusion of an DEC Alpha download for SP6 for NT4)

http://home1.gte.net/res008nh/nt/ppc/ntfaq.htm

J

NTFSDOS

[Ratbert42]

I think this is how NTFSDOS [winternals.com] does it. Before you use it, you install their product on a working Windows machine (with NTFS) and generate boot floppies or CDs that then include the Microsoft-owned NTFS code.

Re:I'm not sure if we'll see it in knoppix

[facelessnumber]

Use FAT32. Then you're not limited even by which version of Windows you plug it into. Windows 2000 and XP can't (won't, actually) format a FAT32 parition over 32gb. But they can both read and use a larger one just fine. Theoretically, I've read that you can fdisk and format a bigger parition with a Win98/ME boot disk, but I tried that and for some reason I couldn't do it. However, I did this a couple of days ago on a 80gb partition...

Boot Knoppix, a Gentoo LiveCD, or somesuch other Linux that's running with that drive unmounted...

Run fdisk, make a partition of Win95 type b or c. (I'm not sure if both work; I used LBA and it did fine; I think that's c) Then...

mkfs.vfat -F 32 /dev/(your parition)

After that, I mounted it as /storage, then booted into Windows and used a little-known option in Disk Manager to mount the new partition in a directory. (c:\storage) Now I have a place where I can read/write under Windows, Linux, VMWare or even a 9x boot disk. It's not a particularly fast filesystem under Linux, but great for playing MP3s and movies, and nothing's going to really fly on USB.

Re:You need to get ntfs.sys legally somehow

[spectecjr]

It's not like ntfs.sys is readily distributable free of charge like the Win32 codec DLL's are, right? Or is it?

Just FYI; the codec DLLs aren't distributable free of charge either.

i'd like to try it but it doesnt work

[kayen_telva]

sometimes it mounts, sometimes it doesnt.
when it does, I try to ls and get 'stale NFS file handle'
or operation not permitted.
so I'll play a little with it and report back here

Re:I'm not sure if we'll see it in knoppix

[Anonymous Coward]

you know you shouldnt use flash storage with fat32
(incase you do - because usb2 would be fast enough)
uses a special byte somewhere and modifies it everytime a file is written etc, since this is always the same byte it will get destroyed way before all the other logic gates on the chip rendering it and without special remapping the whole device useless

Anything more annoying...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just great, I don't think there is a more annoying thing when dual-booting than not to be able to...

I dont think there's anything more annoying than dual-booting.... period.