Retired Microsoft Operating Systems Still Popular 645
Decaffeinated Jedi writes "Despite Microsoft's recent retirement of Windows 98, News.com reports that many users continue to cling to the company's older operating systems. The study cited in the article suggests that 80 percent of companies still have machines operating on Windows 95 or 98. While Windows 2000 was the most common OS in the study, just 6.6 percent of the desktop machines included in the survey were running Windows XP." The results aren't too surprising. I get a lot of user mail from Netscape 4 users, and it only makes sense that they're running it somewhere.
Of course (Score:3, Insightful)
Why "up"grade? (Score:4, Insightful)
The alternative is to throw everything out, buy all new hardware (do you really want me to try to run XP on a Pentium 200 with 64Mb of RAM?), get stuck with a lease on the software, and then to get locked into whatever upgrade cycle Bill thinks is best for Micro$oft.
Microsoft has chosen the greedy path, and eliminated themselves from the list of viable true upgrade paths. I'll upgrade those machines when RedHat (or someone else) gets their act together, supports the still functional Office 97 standard, and does it for less than $60/machine/year. All we need are bug and security patches!
--Mike--
People are figuring out the real use of computers. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, most people (managers especially) have a decade or more of computer use experience under their belt, perhaps even two, and can get a good idea for themselves of what a computer can actually do for them. Ten years experience seeing that a two-yearly upgrade cycle just leaves you with More Of The Same instead of something really new means people are seeing computers as just the tools they are, rather than something awe-inspiring that can solve their every problem
It's like Graphic User Interfaces - they're a hell of a lot more complex now than the original Mac, but that's OK. The original mac was introduced to people who'd never seen a computer before, let alone a GUI. Nowadays, by the time someone buys their first computer with their own money, they're buying a machine with an interface they already have YEARS of getting used to using, and the extra complexity has been learned into them from age 5.
That's a bit sad, in a way. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd bet the reasons users retain the older operating systems have more to do with familiarity and the difficulty of upgrading than with the pricing (which was my first reaction) -- although Windows 2000 and XP offer a stunning level of compatibility with older hardware and a greatly enhanced user experience, the ability to migrate applications from an old system to a new system leaves something to be desired when compared to the DOS days where one could simply copy an application over.
Microsoft may do well to adopt practices that increase the ability for users to upgrade painlessly, such as by doing away with their authentication system and promoting a means of moving a software package (with its associated configuration and data files) to a new Windows installation or to a different computer.
Re:EBay market for W2K will explode (Score:3, Insightful)
Original CD prices going up! (Score:5, Insightful)
The market's a funny thing. Give your customers crappy features like DRM, and they'll find a way to tel you they're not interested... like back-grading to your previous versions.
You watch... i predict that soon Microsoft will find some way to prohibit the sale of these original CDs. A law will get passed, probably under the guise of national security.
prof. h.
Re:EBay market for W2K will explode (Score:3, Insightful)
If anything I think there will be a booming black market in cracked WinXP disks, a record number of BSA audits, and perhaps even raiding of private residences if the lobbies push hard enough.
Then hopefully someone will understand that all WPA does is bug the people that actually paid for the products, and stop these silly practices.
A lot of Mac users on OS 8.x and 9.x, too (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems that when people buy a computer, they expect the software to last as long as the hardware.
Simple reason... (Score:5, Insightful)
I've seen in many stores computers with config like: 2GHZ CPU, some Radeon gfx card, DVD, 5+1 audio card and to all that 128MB RAM (DDR). And of course Windows XP Home Edition. How fast will all that run when it has to use swap memory all the time?!
Solution 1: Install more ram. And void warranty by doing so, because there's a warranty sticker on the case and no internals can be changed.
Solution 2: Install some OS for which 128M RAM is more than enough. Like W98SE or such.
Re:Companies are better off than schools. (Score:5, Insightful)
The apple II's had a very common data acquisition mobo that allowed all sorts of physics experiments to be done. You could measure temperature in real time, trace a trajectory, and do other neat stuff. Why upgrade when these experiments work just fine with the old apples?
It's physics, not computer science. The data is important, not the computer that records it.
If it works, don't fix it (Score:5, Insightful)
I've tried WinXP, and found it very frustrating. Rather than learning how to configure things, such as installing software to be accessible to all users, disabling that damn "You've got too many icons on your desktop" message and dozens of other annoyances, I decided a WinXP computer was not for me and instead kept my older machine.
Of course, I do understand that some people need certain features that are available only in better operating systems, but let's face it: productivity software has very little new to offer, and sticking to an older version is not only cheaper, but also more efficient, as the user is already used to that particlular interface and features.
Re:Companies are better off than schools. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the problem here is that people have stuff that's more than they need. The apple ][gs from 1986 is capable of doing everything the average person does with their pc. So when someone has A Pentium 4 with winxp to run Word I hang my head in disbelief. They only need maybe a Pentium 2 with 98 SE. Companies that think about saving money and actually have brains keep the old stuff that works. Don't upgrade if you don't have to. And if you are just doing office work like word processing and nothin cpu intensive then you should have an old slow machine. It's cost effective. And odds are if the machine is that old and still around it's high quality and wont give you as much technical troubles.
As a free lance, computer repair guy... (Score:5, Insightful)
If companies realized just how much money they dump into fixing all of the problems Windows 98 is privy to, they'd all be on Windows XP.
When I upgrade users to Windows 2000/XP I immediately stop getting Operating System related calls. Suddenly my only work is occassional malware, "my network is down", etc..
Windows 98 is a horrible product, and it's a liability to most small businesses. Most of my clients would have saved hundreds of dollars to make the jump.
Clif
Some companies rely on particular apps (Score:2, Insightful)
One still uses DOS 6.22 on 486 based PC's for a few of their users.
I have run the app in DOSEMU on Linux, but have problems with network support.
I wish they would agree to migrate to a newer app.
Re:Of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Cost and Familiarity (Score:5, Insightful)
I think alot of people on
One other thing to keep in mind is that most mid to smaller level companies do not have onsite IT people. They will either higher outside integrators who charge by the hour or just wing it and hope that the existing set up continues to work for as long as possible. In both situations the company is very very hesident to upgrade as it will cost a ton of money to effectivly get the same results as now.
Slowly moving to 2000 and Linux. (Score:1, Insightful)
On the home side of things, many people are enquiring about Linux to install on their home machines Running Windows 98/ME/XP Home. The reaction of Seeing KDE 3.1 and seeing what a refreshing change fromg Windows have converted many. Many people have heard so much FUD about linux that they are shocked that it Works, unlike Windows XP who BSOD'd on me when I inserted my new USB digital camera, Linux on the other hand created a Disk icon on my desktop and I was able to view them with Konqueror. My old Pentium III with 64 MB much prefered it to Windows 98.
If Microsoft dares to EOL Windows 2000 to force people to use Vapourhorn, they are going to get creamed.
If Microsoft Released an Updated Version of Windows NT (not SP7 call It NT+) with bug fixes and USB/Firewire support it would make a lot of money and make lives a lot easier for companies running perfectly good hardware but not fast enough to run Windows 2000.
Re:Companies are better off than schools. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Companies are better off than schools. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:NT popular in the enterprise (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't laugh, it works. Despite all the whizbang marketing from Redmond, most busineses are extremely pragmatic. If all you need is a {print,file,login} server, linux will happily work on hardware later Microsoft OSes have no hope of running on.
Prediction: there'll be huge uptake of linux when Microsoft kills off support of nt4 server, because no one is going to want to take the double hit of replacing all the hardware and buying all new OS licenses. Not to mention new and different security headaches due to exponential increases in complexity, increased lock-in, restrictive EULAs, etc.
Re:Companies are better off than schools. (Score:1, Insightful)
Of course, that's my opinion, and the Visual Basic Script Kiddies will now flame me for it.
Business can stay with what they want, but (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Companies are better off than schools. (Score:5, Insightful)
Now I see that MS is pushing licensing scheme that makes it difficult to donate old Machines. Schools don't even want the older computers because all they care about is cheap tech support and surfing the internet. How many MSCE have the depth of knowledge to work on an old DOS machine or any apple? But if I were teaching programming, I would rather have enough machines so I could have every student in the school learn the logic of programming rather than just the lucky few who signed up first. Likewise, if i were teaching math or science, i would like every team to have their own computer so that could do their demonstrations and simulations. And I would want them to be old so that is all they could do.
Of course, modern machines are necessary when you are teaching Visual Studio and MS office. For the Vocational training stuff, this is defensible. But for the more basic classes, fast machines are really just a luxury.
Re:The lesson to be learned here (Score:3, Insightful)
Not if it's a reinstall it isn't. Not if it's a change of motherboard it isn't.
Also, what if you scrap one machine, and re-use its licence on another? That's made a lot harder by things like making the OEMs stick the licence number to the original machine case, and enforced limits on product activation.
There's a reason people call it the microsoft tax, it's because microsoft acts like it is owed a fee every time a machine is bought, regardless of whether it has an existing licence installed on it, or even whether it's destined to have another OS it from day 1.
As you say, WPA is truly broken, and always will be until we have
1) a police state 2) hardware under the control of the software vendor, not the hardware owner
Oh, and don't forget the fun that WPA causes for system builders. Do you pre-activate the software (which you're not supposed to do, because the user doesn't then read the EULA), or do you give the customer a machine they can't use until they have a net connection, or have to make a long phone call?
Re:Windows 98 (Score:5, Insightful)
Win95/ office 95 still in use (Score:2, Insightful)
(Or perhaps switching to a linux distro would be quite nice! It's companies like this where I think Suse or others could win over big with linux in the corporate world.)
Scott
Re:Windows 98 (Score:5, Insightful)
Inotherwords, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. (Score:5, Insightful)
Eventually, computers will break down and die or get too slow for their owners needs, or finally drive them insane, and that's where I'm seeing the majority of the market coming from in the coming years; upgrades and repairs. We've got the infastructure, now we've got to maintain it. Few if anyone is going to go for bleeding edge stuff, they want perfected, mature hardware and software. We're also going to see a lot of old people working, since the baby boomers who make up a large percentage of our economy are going to go into retirement and the companies they're going to be getting pension checks from are probably going to go under.
I'v also noticed a trend in the computer industry; MS's software has been getting more expensive. In 1998, a copy of win95 went for about $99, upgrade ed of win98 $99 and full ver of win98 $149. Now, in 2003, winxp home ed costs a whopping $199, and the corp edition costs $299 which for some computers is half the price of the machine. Is longhorn going to cost $499? I MS wants to know why sales of their latest OS is dismal in the corperate and goverment enviroment, mabye it's because it's too expensive to justify.
Re:Simple reason... (Score:3, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:EBay market for W2K will explode (Score:2, Insightful)
This assumes that you trust Microsoft's activation servers to continue responding throughout the lifetime that you expect to use your operating system.
I just reinstalled my copy of Windows98 a few months ago. This article mentions that Windows98 is, and I quote "retired". People are comparing its level of support to AppleII's. Microsoft sound surprised that people are even still using it. This is the same retired operating system that I rely upon to run some very expensive software.
If Windows98 had activation, do you think I'd still be able to use it today?
Howabout my copy of MS-DOS 6 on the 386? If that had activation, do you think I'd still be able to run it today?
Activation isn't about license disputes, it's about forcing people into an upgrade cycle. When WindowsXP came out, I had a long think about the activation features, and decided that my upgrade cycle would be Mandrake Linux. So far, it looks like that was the right choice.
Re:Windows 98 (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't understand this part. There are lots of places where you can buy a computer without windows installed/have to pay for it.
If you can't find a place, you are not looking or you haven't asked.
Re:NT popular in the enterprise (Score:3, Insightful)
Does the current system work
Will the current system work in one year
If either of those are yes, and in some cases both, the will to upgrade gets shot down the tubes. It makes little to no sense to upgrade a station if it is doing its job, before the argument ever gets to money.
Features are one thing that can supercede both the Is it working / money arguments, but that is a fine like that argument walks. If a feature is desired, but not entirely needed, would in some cases, money allowing, provide the urge for upgrading, but in alot of cases just fall to the way side in the interest of office stability.
And as a tech in a PC repair shop (Score:2, Insightful)
Win 9x at least you could get into DOS if you needed to restore files or fix the registry. You really don't have the same amount of control of XP. (And System Restore for XP, is a POS. I see more systems come in with problems AFTER someone ran System Restore.)
Re:Of course (Score:5, Insightful)
Your a small business and run Win98 machines with Office 97. Good enough you would say. That is until your largest customer is sending you files done in Office XP and you can't open them. The short term answer is to call them up and ask them to save it in an older format. Boy does that make you look like a shabby outfit. The other solution is to go out and upgrade the Office suite. Which may requrire you to upgrade the OS. Of course now you are running XP on a 200 MHZ PII and it runs like crap.
I think as a home user you can get away with an older OS but it is difficult to as a business.
Children are not the only '98 target... (Score:5, Insightful)
It took me years to get my father from Multiplan under DOS to Excel with Win98. And some more to get my father trained to 98.
For the sake of my Sanity (already quite low), I don't want to retrain my father to use XP or 2000.
+It just works !!! I don't upgrade what's not broken...(yet...8) I mean I don't fiddle with the computer, and neither do they
Of course, if my parent where to get a P4 (or, more likely, an AMD XP) I might get to install XP or 2000 for them. and get a new Debian server to replace my poor P200 for free...>
Don't tempt me, you insensitive clod 8p
Re:Windows 98 (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Quantum Leap? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:you can run netscape in winxp? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is very true and I think it will come back and bite Linux in the ass eventually. Most people switching to Linux from MS right now are knowledgable. They are the people that know how to set up a proper network and keep it running. As the common people switch to Linux, they will encounter many of the same problems they encountered on Windows, except they won't have any idea how to deal with them. They will end up switching back to their Windows boxes because they at least have an idea how to deal with things on that.
I think we'll see a lot of people switch to Linux, but then we'll see a decent portion of them switch back as they realize their problems weren't caused by MS, but by their own lack of knowledge.
Re:Windows 98 (Score:5, Insightful)
There are many industries out there which drop support for obselete products as they age. Just recently I needed to have an old oscilloscope serviced - the company no longer supported it so I needed an independant service company to fix it. Also not long ago, I found out that the music keyboard that I play in my band was no longer supported by the company that built it. So the phenomena of obsoleting old products is not unique to Microsoft.
And to expect an OS written in 1988 to work on new hardware 6 years later, and also to expect the company that wrote that operating system to support it on the ever increasing multitude of possible configurations is, IMHO, unreasonable.
In this case, I don't think you can reasonably use the word tax, even loosely.
Of course if Microsoft made the source code of Windows 98 available, so that independant companies could provide the support that Microsoft doesn't want to, it would take the sting out of this announcement for a lot of people.
Not XP, 2K (Score:4, Insightful)
2000 is what the 600E was designed for. It shows in how well it performs. I'm sure if you killed a lot of eye candy XP would be just as nice, but I'm lazy.
Linux also runs beautifully on this machine...this was the one and only machine IBM was going to get certified for Red Hat Linux. It's running Knoppix/Debian and very happy.
Re:Windows 98 (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, your oscilloscope actually broke. My Windows 98 hasn't broke, it's still working, it's just now unsupported.
And it's not really obsolete. There are still VERY few software applications out there that won't work on my Windows 98 machine.
The only reason it's "obsolete" is because Microsoft is trying to make it so.
Good Enough. (Score:3, Insightful)
Most very small businesses do the same thing. My dry cleaner has a 486 running a DOS-based database program that keeps track of my drycleaning. I remember using something very similar on a job in 1988.
Many companies don't bother going with the latest and greatest. It's just not worth it to churn their computers and operating software every 2-3 years. Unless they're in IT, it doesn't matter much which version of MS Office they're using.
Tribute money (Score:4, Insightful)
Spare me the explanations of the poor starving software developers; I am fully aware that a software developer seeks renumerations for one's labors, and charging license fees and upgrade fees is a way to amortize the effort required to develop a complex piece of software. That doesn't change the fact that license fees are a kind of economic rent (i.e. money you can rake in because the law grants you a limited monopoly -- you can say that software won't get developed in the absence of such a monopoly, but that doesn't change the material facts that "intellectual property" law has the intent of granting limited monopolies to facilitate collecting economic rents).
I prefer the term tribute money to "Microsoft tax" because "tax" suggests governmental power and some sense of the consent of the governed. Microsoft is not to be dignified by considering it a government -- it is more like such extragovernmental entities such as high-seas pirates, Mafia bosses, feudal lords, and Delaware corporations in that money payed to them to avoid punishment (i.e. lawsuits, getting wacked) is to be called tribute and not a tax.
I also differ with the common usage of "pirate" to denote someone who avoids paying tribute money. I use the term "pirate" to describe contruction contractors that you bring into your house for remodeling and repair work. The reason contractors are pirates has less to do with the amount of money you pay them than the part about when you let them into your house they control every aspect of your life. Yes, it is about the money because whatever contract you sign, there is some uncontrolled eventuality that you have to agree to spending more money once work commences, but even if you are rich enough that the money spent is a minor concern, you become their pirate-hostage regarding letting them in and out of the house at their whim and work schedule.
So construction contractors are pirates simply on the basis that their clients are pirate hostages, and money spent for the XP upgrade when 98 was working just fine for you, thank you, is tribute money.
Re:Windows 98 (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree with that. I have a topographical map program that I often use that won't run at all on any system except Win98. Plus many of the CD-ROMs still on the shelves of the local library won't run on any system newer than Win98.
Plus Win98 is the last MS offering that allows a user to directly access input/output ports. I still have a few ten year old ISA PC cards that interface electronics to PCs. The control programs for these cards directly access I/O as they were written in DOS in most cases. Without Win98, they are useless.
The concept that millions of people are just going to throw away the equipment that they have bought five to ten years ago because of an arbitrary decision of one company in the support chain is simply corporate arrogance.
If Microsoft is no longer going to support an operating system that is still used by hundreds of millions of people worldwide, then they should release the source code for this operating system.
Re:Companies are better off than schools. (Score:5, Insightful)
What is needed, is to have students with an enthusiasm for computers. I think the dot com boom rushed in a lot of people who "learned computers" because they wanted a good job, not because they liked computers. A good computer scientist will know where the RAM is in a motherboard - namely, what sticks of RAM look like - not because he will have had a class where they had to assemble a computer from scratch, but because in his personal interest he's taken the time to upgrade his memory, or to build a computer from the ground up, or to just take the damn case off to see what it looks like inside. Personally, I did all of these things back in my high school days, and the good computer scientists I've met at both my undergrad and grad schools did the same.
While I think it important the universities teach both theoretical and concrete concepts, I think it the hallmark of a good student to take an interest in the concepts outside of class. A university can only provide so much information - the rest is up to the student to hunt out himself.
Windows XP is not as easily pirated. (Score:1, Insightful)
It's no surprise to me that relatively few corporate desktops are running XP. You have to activate every copy! Yes, a few volume license keys were leaked that will get you a non-expiring illicit installation of XP but you can't apply certain updates (such as SP1) with them.
Compare that to Windows 98, 98SE, Me and 2000 where nothing stops you from borrowing a CD and installing it on every desktop in your organization with the same CD Key.