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KDE GUI

KDE Gains Full Accessibility Support 201

Posted by michael from the great-governmental-selling-point dept.
kandalf writes "Together with some other interesting news about making KDE and Gtk apps interoperable as well as porting OpenOffice to Qt/KDE, KDE gained accessibility support through the ATK interface from Sun with Qt - so KDE 3.2 will be 'accessibility ready' for the end user once coming out in January. Got the dot?"
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KDE Gains Full Accessibility Support More

KDE Gains Full Accessibility Support

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  • This is great news for KDE, I can see how this will enable it to gain a more diverse market share. By allowing for more users to interact with it, despite their physical limitations truely shows that KDE and GNU/Linux in general is ready for mainstream use. Oh, yeah, and FP!

  • Congrats! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 19, 2003 @11:34AM (#7764398)
    This is a big step onward. Anyone know how this assistive technology compares with gnopernicus [gnome.org]? Or do the separate softwares need to be made due to differences between Gnome & KDE?

  • And hopefully (Score:3, Troll)

    by justsomebody ( 525308 ) on Friday December 19, 2003 @11:34AM (#7764400) Journal
    They will adopt desktop settings at freedesktop.org too and there will be one control panel to maintain both KDE and Gnome. Until then I'll be avoiding KDE.

    I just don't want to tweak every single feature

    • Not Relevent (Score:5, Interesting)

      by brunes69 ( 86786 ) <`gro.daetsriek' `ta' `todhsals'> on Friday December 19, 2003 @11:50AM (#7764579)
      XSettings and the Desktop Color Scheme specs only refers to things like mouse curosr movement, drag and drop timeouts, and color schemes, trivial things of that nature. None of the more advanced types of configuration, like positions of panels, menu types, etc, are included in there.

      All it is is a standard spec for controlling how happs behave in a fundamental fashion.

      KDE and Gnome are so different and have such totally different config architectures (GConf vs. KConfig ) that you'll never be able to manage both with one single spec, unless either one desktop ditches their system and adopts the other (not going to happen ), or someone makes a huge monolithic app that can do both ( would be hideous ).

      • GConf is XML architecture, KConfig is a software.

        And if you ask me KConfig is already a huge monolithic app that is hideous
        • You mix up KConfig and the control center

          And Kcontrol is not monolithic it's nearly 100% modular

          • My bad! Sorry kcontrol yes.

            As for modular, probably yes, but usable and nice, NO. kcontrol is the main reason I left for Gnome

            • Re:Not Relevent (Score:5, Interesting)

              by nutshell42 ( 557890 ) on Friday December 19, 2003 @12:25PM (#7765014) Journal
              Yeah, Gconf is *so* superior. I always miss the registry when I'm away from Windows, too.

              SCNR, really =), cleaning up kcontrol would be a *very good* idea I'm not arguing with you here. I'd really like to see simple and advanced profiles with all the stuff of the Gnome control center plus some essentials (language selection for example) as standard and a seperate section/a big red button for people who want all the settings.

              That said one thing I'd like Gnome to reverse is the decision to abolish the apply/ok button in the settings. That's outright dangerous imho.

              • > Yeah, Gconf is *so* superior. I always miss the registry when I'm away from Windows, too.

                At least the Windows registry editor has a search function.
              • Yes, it is *so* superior, it's not one big file, thus access time won't get slowed down if more settings would be in it.

                That said one thing I'd like Gnome to reverse is the decision to abolish the apply/ok button in the settings.

                Yep, that I agree

              • Re:Not Relevent (Score:5, Informative)

                by nitehorse ( 58425 ) <clee@c133.org> on Friday December 19, 2003 @02:55PM (#7767024)
                FWIW, even though I don't work on GNOME (and I have worked on KConfig and KControl, so I have some idea what I'm talking about in that area at least), GConf is really nothing like the Windows registry. The fact that the GConf editor _looks_ somewhat similar to Regedit is really bad for the GNOME guys because it gives the wrong impression (IMHO), but the underlying system is really absolutely nothing like the evil that is the Windows Registry.

                And as far as KControl goes... trust me, work is being done to clean up the mess. :) KDE 3.2 is a pretty big step towards it, but it's not done yet, and there will be much more work to clean things up for KDE 3.3, and KDE4 will likely feature a very different configuration application altogether.

                But KDE 3.3 is at least a year away, and KDE4 is (to quote Havoc Pennington) something for the Star-Trek future.
            • I think that kcontrol most has an appearance of being unusable. KDE 3.2 has "settings:/", which has the same content as kcontrol, but presents it in a much better way (akin to GNOME, Windows, MacOS before OSX).. and to me, it feels a lot more usable.

    • Re:And hopefully (Score:5, Insightful)

      by nutshell42 ( 557890 ) on Friday December 19, 2003 @11:57AM (#7764653) Journal
      I just don't want to tweak every single feature

      Then don't do it. Noone forces you to change everything, the defaults of KDE are at least as sensible as the ones of Gnome (although with a different focus)

    • Re:And hopefully (Score:5, Informative)

      by nitehorse ( 58425 ) <clee@c133.org> on Friday December 19, 2003 @02:50PM (#7766965)
      I know that I'm probably just feeding a troll here, but I just can't resist...

      Look, KDE has been very involved with creating the specs at Freedesktop.org. Hell, I'm a KDE developer, and I'm also in the CVS commit list on the freedesktop server. The reason that you haven't seen Freedesktop standard support in KDE yet is because either A) You haven't tried a KDE 3.2 beta or B) You're obviously trolling.

      KDE 3.2 will have support for all of the relevant standards that have moved out of the 'still in progress' stage and even some support for a few that haven't yet been finalized. KDE 3.1 was released almost a full year ago, when none of these standards was really done yet, so it isn't exactly a crime that it didn't support standards that didn't exist.

      And KDE 3.3 will support even more of the specs that Freedesktop puts out, because we're involved in their creation (things that are currently pre-spec, even, like the shared MIME and Help systems).
    • You don't have to tweak every single feature, you nitwit! Do you have so little self control that you must twist and turn every little knob if they aren't hidden twenty layers deep?

      Let's put it another way. If you're so damned concerned about this, then stop using GNOME as well, since it comes with GConf allowing you to tweak features you've never even heard of.
  • For example, Windows' accessibility features has saved me many times when the mouse just doesn't want to work for various reason. It enable me to use the numpad to simulate the mouse, and troubleshoot the problem - instead of reinstalling it.

    I welcome this addition to KDE even more for that reason.
    • You have a valid point, but actually you don't need a mouse to fix Linux software problems, one of the features I like about Linux, when the GUI fails, you can always use the command line and edit some config files, and voila, it's back to normal, OSes that rely heavily on the GUI are vulnerable to being completely inaccessible when the GUI fails, and you know, the command line is more likely to be still working when problems occur that the GUI system.

    • Re:This may prove useful to ordinary people as wel (Score:5, Informative)

      by hviezda14 ( 580875 ) on Friday December 19, 2003 @11:42AM (#7764495)
      This is already included in X server (on which KDE is running), if you press SHIFT+NumLock, you can navigate mouse cursor with arrows on numpad.

      • Please (Score:1, Troll)

        by palad1 ( 571416 )
        Pressing ALT-F , Q, Enter : 1 second Pressing Shift num + UP, UP, Up, UP, DOWN, LEFT, LEFT, LEFT, LEFT, RIGHT, SPACE to open the file menu, then DOWN, DOWN, DOWN, DOWN, DOWN, DOWN, space for 'quit' ... 15 seconds, 45 swearing words... This ain't the same level of functionnality :)
      • That's really neat, but the cursor moves SO SLOW!

        It'd be a real bitch to do anything with this. I mean it takes a full 2 minutes to cross the screen.
        • Speed (and acceleration) are settings which can be changed. This can be done while X is running. I've seen a nice GUI app for it, but I can't remember where. Google is probably your friend. Otherwise, it's probably in xset somewhere.

          Oddly, IIRC, Slackware and Debian ship with really nice defaults here, but Redhat and Mandrake go way to slow. Weird.

    • I find the mouse to be an increasing bother. I mostly use the keyboard, even in Windows. It's just so much quicker then wiggeling around with the mouse. Who needs to position a cursor to a certain point of the screen to click, and then another, when they can just do a WinKey+R -> cmd ?
      • Actually, that's one of the few things I like about Windows (and most MS software): it has always been possible to access almost everything using your keyboard. Although it's often neither convenient nor efficient (press TAB 42 times until the correct widget is focused and then press Enter), but at least it's possible. With many X apps, especially older ones, you basically can't do anything without a mouse (e.g. xdvi). Focus-follows-mouse isn't very convenient if you don't have a mouse.
    • Mouse emulation has been available in XFree86 for a long time (don't remember how much, but long it is). Use Shift+NumLock to enable it (you will hear a beep), use the 1234 6789 number pad keys to move the cursor around, use the /*- number pad keys to select the active mouse button, use the 5 number pad key to click the active mouse button, use Shift+NumLock to disable it (you will hear a beep).

      Maybe KDE provides a better interface to that facility, but the functionnality was there already.
    • I would think using the keyboard without the numlock "acessability feature" mouse would do just as well. ctrl-esc pulls down the start menu, alt-tab, shift-tab and ctrl-tab does a lot of stuff too, often quicker than a keypad-mouse. This is all my opinion. The only exception might be controlling stuff in the system tray.
    • Linux can operate just fine without a mouse...in fact, there are console tools that allow you to do just about whatever you need...it's surprisingly pleasant to code in vi, play music with mp3blaster, and browse the web with lynx. Besides, if you screw something up in windows, you NEED a mouse just to load / remove drivers, change your GUI config, etc. In linux, all of those things can be done from the console.
  • What percent of windows users use the accessibility features ?

    How does this make KDE any more useful to us , who don't really need accessibility. Making KDE more accessible to physically handicapped people is sure nice and appriciable, but shouldn't it come down the list of things like

    consistent UI look and feel.
    Better interoperability with non KDE applications
    etc etc etc...

    • How does this make KDE any more useful to us , who don't really need accessibility.

      I'm sure you can find a use for screen magnification, improved typing commands, and keyboard-mouse-control.

      So it is more useful--about as "more useful" as that handicapped ramp you never appreciated until you have to roll a heavy desk up it.

      Making KDE more accessible to physically handicapped people is sure nice and appriciable, but shouldn't it come down the list of things like

      No. You can use KDE as-is. Others cannot use it without handicapped accessability at all.

      'sides which, this is OSS "scratch an itch" software.
      • I think what makes this significant is the fact that now that KDE has full accessibility it can be more easily adopted into public/government domains where accessibility features are mandatory.

        This lack of accessibility has kept KDE out of consideration from a lot of places for a long time, but now... prepare for total world domination:)

      • Re:Without intention to TROLL.. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by RealProgrammer ( 723725 ) on Friday December 19, 2003 @12:18PM (#7764886) Homepage Journal
        So it is more useful--about as "more useful" as that handicapped ramp you never appreciated until you have to roll a heavy desk up it.

        There are many other settings where making something accessible also makes it easier to use for the rest of us:

        • I always use the handicapped stall in public restrooms. Spacious, well-lit heads are better.
        • I really appreciate wheelchair buttons on the doors to public buildings when what I'm carrying won't let me open the door otherwise. Powered doors are better.
        • We're doing some remodelling on our house. Part of that will be 36", wheelchair-friendly doors. Big doors are better.

        It's really just about being user-friendly, making your edge cases disappear.

      • You make a great argument. I would expand it by adding that all too often, when people think of "accessibility," they picture a person in a wheelchair, or a person who is completely disabled in some way. Even the post [kde.org] at KDE.news (linked-to in this post) is in the category "accessibility" and the logo is a wheelchair.

        But accessibility has advantages to all, in ways not necessarily pre-conceived by the authors/designers of software. For the web, different devices emerged in the past few years - mobile p

    • Re:Without intention to TROLL.. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mental_telepathy ( 564156 ) on Friday December 19, 2003 @11:43AM (#7764499)
      From what I understand, people with disabilities want to access everything everyone else does. I know, it sounds crazy.

      So, if I am a partially deaf or blind kernel developer, why should I have to wait for fucntionaility everyone else already has?

    • Accessibility is a huge issue. Without it, KDE cannot be used for many government purposes.
    • What percent of windows users use the accessibility features ?

      Ever questioned their quality maybe?

      How does this make KDE any more useful to us , who don't really need accessibility. Making KDE more accessible to physically handicapped people is sure nice and appriciable, but shouldn't it come down the list of things like

      Yep, let's ignore them. Nicer icons should get in the first plan.

      Your comment made me feel that you're mentaly handicapped, and you deserve some special atk settings for brain damage
    • As another poster [slashdot.org] stated, accessibility options are very useful in a pinch.

      Just because bomb shelters aren't used every day doesn't mean we don't need them.

    • Re:Without intention to TROLL.. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) <teamhasnoi AT yahoo DOT com> on Friday December 19, 2003 @11:48AM (#7764568) Journal
      Let's say it happens to you. You get in a car accident and lose an arm. Or find out that you have a degenerative eye disease. Then where will 'Sticky Keys' and 'Magnifier' be on your list?

      It's easy to discount stuff that doesn't immediately apply, but this is only a good thing for lots of people.

      I agree that UI consistency is something that needs work, but thinking about how *everyone* uses KDE can only help the UI design.

  • I'll never get a date now! (Score:5, Funny)

    by pair-a-noyd ( 594371 ) on Friday December 19, 2003 @11:38AM (#7764454)
    2.6.0, 3.2 and R.o.T.K. all about the same time?!

    Where will I ever find the time to get a life!

    • Re:I'll never get a date now! (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      What's really sad is that any of us on this Board knows instantly what you are referring to when you simply state "2.6.0, 3.2, and R.o.T.K."

      Show that list to the man on the street and he'll say, "Huh?"
  • Despite what seems to be a widespread misapprehension of conflict between the GNOME and KDE camps, KDE's adoption of ATK, originally developed for GNOME, is another great example of the cooperation that actually is more the norm.
    • Its also another example of the KDE side having to wrap GNOME C APIs because the technology transfer is going GNOME -> KDE rather than the other way around. In this case, its perfectly fine (since ATK is superior to anything KDE had), but hopefully, a lot of the superior technology of KDE will make it into GNOME. My biggest fear is that the fact that GNOME is C and C is easier to wrap will make GNOME technologies more prevalent in standards even when the KDE versions are greatly superior.
  • "Got the dot". All I can think of, now, is a pinball game with a malfunction [pandora.be]...does KDE use a switch matrix? :)

  • OT - KDE as 'default' (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mgkimsal2 ( 200677 ) on Friday December 19, 2003 @11:56AM (#7764642) Homepage
    I've been reading this for months, people saying that 'distro X has KDE as the default desktop' or 'distro Y uses Gnome by default'.

    EVERY distro I've installed over the last 3 years *asks* me which desktop managers I want to install. Although this decision is generally put on par with choosing whether you want to install 'games' or 'server software' or 'scientific' software, it's still a decision you're expected to make. I don't think any distro I've ever installed just puts a desktop on by default with no choice (save for Knoppix).

    What have I missed in these wars where certain distros make the choice for you? I've installed mandrake, redhat, suse, plain debian, knoppix and and caldera over the years.
    • I actually don't remember now if debian offered a choice or not - it was a joint install with someone else and I don't recall exactly how that went, except that I didn't keep it on longer than a week. :)
    • Perhaps they offer you the other DE but the support is often lackluster at best.

      Red Hat KDE is ridiculous and Bluecurve (I think that's what it's called) was practically maiming KDE. Gnome on SuSE otoh always lacked the polish their KDE had. Similar things can be said for a lot of distributions

    • EVERY distro I've installed over the last 3 years *asks* me which desktop managers I want to install...What have I missed in these wars where certain distros make the choice for you?

      1) I think the newer desktop-targeted distros (Lindows, Lycoris, those guys) do push a particular desktop on you.

      2) Also, with other distros, if you install both they often still default to booting to gdm/GNOME or kdm/KDE without asking you for a preference.

      3) As someone else said, the non-default, like KDE in Red Hat, is poorl

    • Knoppix actually does give you some choice as to the desktop you use - it's just slightly hidden. When you boot the CD, hit F2 (I think) and it'll give you a list of options that you can pass to the initialization scripts. Among these options is "desktop=foo". I prefer Fluxbox, as it loads significantly faster than KDE does from a CD. There's about 8 other WM's to try, so you've got your pick of the litter.

      So, just type the following when you reach the Knoppix splash screen:

      knoppix desktop=fluxbox
    • Try installing some of the newer debian based 'live' cds..

      Your choice is made when you download the distribution.. Not at run time..

      Not saying this is bad.. just an observation...
  • Which one does what again? It's all so confusing.

    -gam

    • Re:QT, GTK+, KDE, ATK, ugh... (Score:4, Informative)

      by damiam ( 409504 ) on Friday December 19, 2003 @12:03PM (#7764730)
      QT and GTK are toolkits - libraries that display stuff (windows, toolbars, buttons, text boxes, etc.) on the screen. KDE is a desktop environment - a set of programs that use the QT toolkit to create a user interface. ATK is a set of accessability standards, which are now supported by KDE and GNOME, the two majro desktop environments.
  • excellent news! wow! incredible!

    no, serious now, good...

  • From a user: Thank you! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday December 19, 2003 @12:03PM (#7764728)
    I lost most of the use of my fingers and 40 percent of my vision in a chemical accident 15 years ago. I am so glad to see linux taking steps to make things more usable for people like me. I truly feel linux will soon take the lead in accessibility (not to mention stability and performance) from Microsoft very soon. Thank you linux hackers!

    --Berry
  • Slashdotted.

    Only the KDE/Qt OpenOffice port link at dot.kde.org was in Google's cache: porting OpenOffice to Qt/KDE [216.239.37.104]

    Direct link to kde.openoffice.org [openoffice.org]

    -Mike

  • I found KDE to have too much of everything (Score:3, Insightful)

    by xutopia ( 469129 ) on Friday December 19, 2003 @12:39PM (#7765229) Homepage
    I'm glad they have this accessibility thing but unless they do some usability efforts people like me will go for the unKluttered look of Gnome.
    • Good. I don't understand this attitude many people seem to have that all window managers should behave in a manner perfect to their own prefrence. I like most things in KDE, I have a mild dislike for a lot of aspects of Gnome. I'm thrilled that Gnome exists, because obviously it scratchs the itch of a lot of people, and prevents that same behavior being implemented in an environment where it would only annoy most users - not help them. I love the fact that there's so much choice in Linux, and I think it'd b

  • Sun? (Score:2, Funny)

    by elmegil ( 12001 )
    Sun? Aren't they dead yet? Don't they just suck all around and pollute Linux by their very existence?

    Oh wait, Sun is Goood this time. Sorry, wrong knee jerk.

  • So does using QT mean that free QT developers cannot have their contributions adopted into StarOffice by Sun?

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