MS Security Chief: Windows Never Exploited Until Patch Available 1040
BenBenBen writes "The head of Microsoft's security business and technology unit states that Windows is never vulnerable until a patch appears, and that releasing patches is what causes exploits to be developed. Good quotes: 'We have never had vulnerabilities exploited before the patch was known', and '[he] could only think of one instance when a vulnerability was exploited before a patch was available'. Erm..."
Interesting stock photos (Score:0, Insightful)
Beware the evil shift and return keys! They should be removed from the keyboard as they clearly are used to write exploits.
Logic??? (Score:5, Insightful)
The real question though is: If the patch can be exploited, is it a patch? Yes, I know that they are analyzing the patch to attack unpatched machines, but to claim that vulnerabilities are not present before patches are released is circular logic.
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc (Score:5, Insightful)
At best, the notion that patches are the source of all exploits is a logical fallacy [datanation.com]. However, I'm sure I'd not be in the minority of /. readers if I opined that Mr. Aucsmith is either lying outright or simply delusional.
I say that since Microsoft has a policy of "eating their own dog food", they should be forced to stand by this ridiculous proclamation and henceforth cease and desist all efforts to patch their code. Thus, all exploitations of buggy MS code will also halt.
Simple solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Also liked this quote, from the end of the article:
"Almost all attacks against our software are against the legacy systems," he said.
"If you want more secure software, upgrade."
Hmmm.
An article disproving this... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Assume for me... (Score:5, Insightful)
-m
Riiight... (Score:2, Insightful)
"If you want more secure software, upgrade."
Should I start laughing now or later? David Aucsmith seems to be missing a clue.
Re:Piffle (Score:5, Insightful)
That quote goes for Linux as well as MS. How many people do you know that are still running 2.0.34
On the same logic (Score:5, Insightful)
Reply to this post with your street adress and your usual work hours, thanks!
Re:Piffle (Score:-1, Insightful)
This isn't a deliberate thing. Not all old software is supported. If Linux 2.2.XX had security holes they would say upgrade. There aren't new fixes being written. If there was an old version of Lotus Notes that had a security hole, they would say upgrade. This isn't unusual or M$ forcing on people.
Partly right (Score:5, Insightful)
As soon as they release the patch, every hacker knows 99% of the systems won't be patched for a while, and Microsoft just about gave out what is the problem and how to exploit it.
So I say yes, it is dangerous to say out loud "hey, there is a hole in our system, but we have a patch". I would prefer if they just shut up, and release a "cumulative patch" once in a while.
Just my opinion.
Re:Post hoc, ergo propter hoc (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with this reasoning is that it assumes the only people writing exploits are lazy/clueless enough to wait for someone to tell them what to exploit. It ignores the fact that there is a community of hackers out there actively looking for the holes.
Possible Reason (Score:4, Insightful)
Then, when MS does release the patch, the people who found the flaw throw up the details on their website for all the "hackers" to get their hands on.
hence the exploits coming after the patch is released
Re:Piffle (Score:5, Insightful)
But, you are wrong about this. In fact, a new Kernel update to 2.2 was released. Version 2.2.26. It's been a year, but they were still released.
Here's a quote from the release: "Marc-Christian Petersen announced the release of the 2.2.26 Linux kernel. This release includes several security fixes, including a fix for the latest mremap() bug." See the Linux 2.2.26 Release Notes [kerneltrap.org]
So, really, MS is forcing users to upgrade by not releasing patches to old version.
MSFT mentioned!! Slashbot tantrum time!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
There are no doubt circumstances where the super-1337 h4x0r finds an exploit all on his own, I'd imagine through trial and error, but for the most part, they look at windows update and see "This patch resolves a vulnerability in WMP which could allow arbitrary code execution", and they write an exploit for the unpatched boxes.
The MSDN knowledge base is a great source for folks looking for exploits, they very often have step-by-step directions to reproduce the problems.
That's how you get root on linux boxes too, you find people still running an older kernel version, or an old sendmail, ssh, whatever, and hit the known exploits for that version.
And if you want a more secure system, yeah, upgrade. It works that way no matter what your personal philosopy behind your OS choice.
Upgrade sales? (Score:2, Insightful)
shouldn't this be on bbspot? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Oh really? (Score:4, Insightful)
> Another way to look at this is that I should be able to remove every patch from my Windows PC and it would be totally secure?
Um, no, since his point was that exploits are only found when a patch is released. By removing the patches from your system, you'll be vulnerable to those patches that were found. The parent's statement was more correct and humorous:
Of Course, this is now moot (Score:3, Insightful)
Welcome to a whole new ballgame, Microsoft.
Re:OK (Score:5, Insightful)
There's still one major difference - M$ is driven by the almighty dollar, while Linux is driven by people who want to do what's right. Further, with Microsoft, you not only upgrade your software, but most likely, your EULA as well (and no telling what kind of nastiness). With Linux, you have no such worries.
Re:Oh really? (Score:3, Insightful)
Engage Brain, Think About It (Score:2, Insightful)
Makes sense to me. Hackers and crackers are losers by definition, so it seems a reasonable explanation that they don't have the smarts to find the holes themselves.
They're scavengers; a slightly higher form of script kiddie, who looks for knowledge won by other people and then exploits it.
By the way, no one suggested that companies should stop looking for vulnerabilities that need patching. That spin is just the standard
Re:Partly right (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Identify known, 'in the wild' virii, that took advantage of a Microsoft vulnerability before MS announced a patch.
2) Identify how many virii were developed/released using knowledge derived after announcement, or release of, a patch.
Obviously there's way to many viruses to do a complete list, but say the major 10 virii per calendar year, would be a good sample. Case 1 would identify how many vulnerabilities are discovered by hackers through their own active behaviour,wherease Case 2 would help narrow down the % of virii related to script kiddies I think. I suspect the number of virii leveraging net-new vulnerabilities vs clones of existing code are at least 10:1.
In the end, I unforutnately fear that there's alot of truth in Microsoft's statements. It doesn't absolve them of being responsible for developing poor code in the first place, but the correlation they've identified is probably valid.
Why read the BBC anymore? (Score:5, Insightful)
Kernel upgrade... (Score:4, Insightful)
Tm
Re:Post hoc, ergo propter hoc (Score:5, Insightful)
I somehow think the quote might have been taking out of context, especially when he states that:-
"Many people reverse engineer the patch and then build the exploit code,"
I have a feeling that the main point of his statement, was that the majority of attacks are on unpatched systems. Certainly when you consider Symantec's Mr Beighton's statement:-
"It's a myth that hackers find the holes,"
He said in many cases the appearance of a patch was the spur that kicked off activity around a particular vulnerability.
Which would probably be true, once the problem is widely known, then there is more likliehood for an exploit to be devised. Hence the more devasting attacks such as Code Red were centred around a previously patched exploit.
Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:On the same logic (Score:5, Insightful)
A better analogy: It's more likely that a robber will be able to break into your home if he heard you explain how the lock on your door doesn't work terribly well. This sounds more reasonable, and is more like the point he was trying to make.
Re:An article disproving this... (Score:3, Insightful)
Politicians get torn apart in the media only because other politicians and opinion column writers get involved. It almost never happens in the original story.
When a science story appears, it is invariably presented by the journalist as gospel truth, and it's only after the rebuttals are published that there is a chance of credibility loss.
I saw nothing in the article to suggest that this was "like when God speaks". I simply saw an account of what a MS executive stated in a keynote speech. In this situation, there are no questions, no rebuttal, and no excuse for a journalist to impose his own opinions into the story. Instead, it is an opportunity for the readers to for their own opinions. And, quite frankly, as the story develops, this won't be good for Microsoft. It never is when the head of a security technology unit makes ludicrous statements like these.
Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Assume for me... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sigh, it's a losing battle arguing with them, and I've pretty much given up.
Wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
But now that the patch is out, you can expect hackers to know about the vulnerability and attack you if you don't have the patch.
They are dumb, dont try to play dumber.
Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Insightful)
What this is is security through hiding problems you find and hoping that no one else finds them.
RonB
Bad patches (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Piffle (Score:5, Insightful)
Just how long should a company be obligated to support its older products? And why are you coming down so hard on Microsoft while ignoring the fact that this is simply standard practice, in every industry?
Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Insightful)
The really scary part is that this wasn't said by some marketing guy like Gates or Ballmer, it was said by the Microsoft Security Chief.
Re:Never, util... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Piffle (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Piffle (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:Piffle (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, quite the opposite is often the case if older versions remain maintained, because they are more thoroughly debugged and locked down. And they are maintained because there is no profit motive to not do so.
KFG
How did MS find out they needed a patch? (Score:2, Insightful)
"If you want more secure software, upgrade." (Score:2, Insightful)
Did anyone read the article? (Score:2, Insightful)
All they are trying to say is that patching your machine is a good idea because many exploits are created from reverse engineering. I don't think there's anything revolutionary about that statement, and I think it's a pretty accurate one.
Seeking examples... or Flamebait if you will (Score:4, Insightful)
So let's really hash this out.
Just for kicks, let's make a list of examples in the last three years where a virus/explot happened on any kind of wide scale before the patch was available. If we really disagree with his comments, let's make an intelligent attempt at rebuttal.
I'll take first shot: the first major incident that comes to mind for me is the COM+ bug of this last summer.
Re:Just one?? Really?! (Score:4, Insightful)
However, in the cases I cited, people were absolutely exploiting those bugs in the wild before Microsoft released a patch for them. While the articles I linked don't explicitly state "this is already being exploited", the fact of the matter is that exploits did happen before Microsoft finally put out a patch. A friend of mine was hit with the domain-spoofing bug while surfing pr0n, seriously.
Re:Piffle (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not Microsoft's fault your Windows servers have been hacked, infected and your entire system is down, it's the fault of your IT department for not keeping up to date on the Windows patches. You see Microsoft software is 100% secure as long as you keep up to date on the patches.
I'm not sure whether this is uncertainty or doubt, though.
If you want more secure software upgrade... (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, to me it sounds more and more like they knowingly shipped a defective product (remember, it wasn't until class action suits that the ar industry started to clean up thier act). Then they are using fear of security issues to force upgrades. It almost sounds like racketeering to me.
"Ya got a nice server there, it would be a shame if something happened to it... for just $bignum dollars we can protect you..."
Hey! That sort of sounds like the AV "industry" as well...
A crackers mind? (Score:5, Insightful)
Any sane cracker wont report his latest exploit to bugtraq. He will continue to use it until someone else finds out about it. When it hits MS and they patch it the cracker will have found another hole to use. The most dangerous breakins is ofcourse corporate espionage and i think the ones doing those have a field day on Windows right now. They dont use common exploits that intrusion detection systems detect since they want in and out unnoticed, even if the systems in the target is unpatched.
only Microsoft finds exploits (Score:5, Insightful)
say [pun]"Only Microsoft exploits exploits"[/pun]...
from the article
"Almost all attacks against our software are against the legacy systems," he said.
"If you want more secure software, upgrade."
Here you are. They said it, officially.
I seem to remember that my debian stable is composed of 1-2 years old software, and, regularly patched, will say secure without even have to reboot...
PEOPLE !!! "If you want more secure software, upgrade."
Symantec partly agrees... (Score:5, Insightful)
"It's a myth that hackers find the holes," said Nigel Beighton, who runs a research project for security firm Symantec that attempts to predict which vulnerabilities will be exploited next.
He said in many cases the appearance of a patch was the spur that kicked off activity around a particular vulnerability.
For the most part, I think this is true. Most Windows exploits DO "magically" appear a few days or weeks after a patch is available. Of course, hundreds of thousands of users never patch, or never patch in time. The "magic" lies in the symbiotic relationship between anti-virus software producers and malware creators.
None of this excuses MS from releasing Swiss cheese code, but it looks like a lot of malware gets created after a "proof of concept" has been released by "security researchers".
Counterexamples? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe they knew about the vulnerability for a week at that moment, maybe they were testing the patch, but the patch was not yet available, existing systems were being actively exploited, and site owners had no clue about that vulnerability because the "will be no exploit till we release this patch" policy.
I'm not sure if that is the best example, but at least is one that is enough to show how much bullshit they used to tell in public.
Re:Logic??? (Score:3, Insightful)
Or any other commercial software developer for that matter.
The real question though is: If the patch can be exploited, is it a patch?
Well, yeah. If I released a patch today for SSH, along with the notification that it fixes a bug in some buffer overflow for instance, you would have tons of people looking for and eventually finding the bug. Then it's only a simple matter of rushing to find all of the machines with that vulnerable version still installed. Me releasing the patch, or the patch itself wouldn't be to blame in that instance.. but the people who don't bother to install those patches.
Of course, this guy saying that Microsoft products are never exploited until a patch is released is total bullshit and everyone at Microsoft surely knows this. Maybe this guy is the only one who doesn't? Who knows.
Can I sue? (Score:3, Insightful)
So can I sue Microsoft for providing hackers the information they need to hack my machine. Sounds like they're aiding and abetting according to that logic.
Instead of usual slashdot antics.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Piffle (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, so a product has a definite lifetime.
So? You don't have to upgrade an antiquated software but if you keep using Win95 today it's up to you to accept the risks.
I don't see what's wrong with this.
Re:Piffle (Score:1, Insightful)
They can pull that crap on the business market and get away with it, but joe sixpack can always go try that linux thingie he heard about.
"
no, joe sixpack can always say "I won't get a virus." and just go on running win98. Joe sixpack doesn't switch to linux. Joe sixpack accepts the problem as unfixable voodoo and just lives with it.
Re:Piffle (Score:5, Insightful)
It depends if you run updates through regression testing on a series of "standard" machines in the office and all goes well until you actually try to patch the systems. Then, some obscure third party app that you completely forgot even existed clashes with the freshly updated machine and fucks the whole thing but good because of some bizarre bug that prevents the machine from even getting to first stage boot. On 350 desktops. In the middle of the night. On the weekend.
As compared to the boxes that kernel-upgraded flawlessly even though we didn't list out half the stuff being used on said boxes.
Windows update for home use? (Usually) painless. Windows update for wide deployments. Potentially, the most painful fucking nightmare you will ever experience unless you have a completely homogenous environment.
Re:Piffle (Score:4, Insightful)
Plan A:
1. Issue security patch for 98 (COSTS MS $)
2. Fix issues caused by hackers examining patches and determining new exploits. (COST MS TIME AND $)
3. Goto 1
Or, there is another way...
Plan B:
1. Issue bulletins telling those 25% of the home user base that their systems are insecure.
2. Sell new copies of an OS to those 25% peoples.
3. PROFIT!!!!
4. Issue new bulletins telling those that upgraded that their *new* replacement OS is insecure.
5. Goto 2
Yep, Plan B has a few more steps, but in the end I think even the silliest would choose that route, provided they could get away with it.
Re:Piffle (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not about how long a company is obligated to support it's products, it's about having a company that refuses to fix their products and has the legal right to sue you if you try to do it yourself.
That's the real problem.
Re:Simple solution (Score:3, Insightful)
In this respect, the claim might be largely valid. It's just a really, really stupid thing to say, and has no bearing on absolutely anything at all. You'd still want to release patches, you'd still be responsible for writing buggy software, and you'd just be wasting your time saying things like this. I think the point was just, ``we never see massive outbreaks of this in the wild until after the patch is released.'' But that doesn't mean your software is any more secure.
Re:On the same logic (Score:5, Insightful)
Until someone tries to open the door to see if it is actually properly locked, or gets a tip that it isn't.
Therein lies the flaw of "security through obscurity".
I know exactly the point that he wants to make, it's that if no one talks or reports the security holes it's not a problem. But it IS!
Re:Piffle (Score:1, Insightful)
ie... on a car, even when the manufacturer's warranty runs out, it's still possible to either fix it yourself or find somebody who knows how. not exactly possible with Windows.
Things that need to be pointed out. (Score:5, Insightful)
Few quick observations...
1.) Microsoft end of lifed windows98 on Jan 16th of 2004. That's 6 years of supporting an operating system, folks. That's impressive. $100, and you got downloadable updates for 6 years? RHN subscriptions or enterprise linux don't touch that. So, if they don't provide security updates for it anymore, it's only because, in terms of software, it's ancient and it should be phased out. Upgrading to get security sux, but who'd buy a new computer and willingly want to use their old win98 on it (i know slashdotters can always come up with whatever reasons for anything, but in the general public).
Yes the Linux kernel, even back to 2.2, is still being updated. And yes, linux updates don't cost money. But, what if I have just downloaded kernel 2.4.11, and it works great, and oops, we found a problem in 2.4.11. The solution is to upgrade. Not patch. What if going to the new kernel breaks stuff that used to work, while in the process patching an old hole?
This is different, but similar to MS. "You have a problem with 2.2.7? You should try to upgrade to 2.2.26 or 2.4.24." "You have a problem with windows98? You should upgrade to ME or XP."
2.) The article claims windows has not had security holes that were exploited before a patch was available. I don't think this was true, but keep in mind, the VAST VAST majority of Microsoft problems are with outlook, internet explorer, office, IIS, exchange, etc. Technically, these are not windows problems. It's like saying that wu-ftpd has an exploit that gives a user root access (which is almost always true), and then blaiming that on the kernel dev team.
Or, it's like OpenBSD. "Only one remote hole in the default install, in 7 years". My ass. The default install is unusable as an OS. How do they accomplish their security claim? Partially through well-written systems. Partially through turning off every freaking useful service known to man that you would want to run on a server. And yet, people hold them up as a paragon of security. The holes in OpenBSD are from other programs, the masses cry. But no one thinks about the same thing in terms of microsoft.
3.) The time warp thing is confusing me. Everyone is saying that it's a logical fallacy that Microsoft could have released patches for security bugs that are not yet discovered? Or, what, i'm not following. The have the code, they test it, they find a bug, they try to release a patch before it gets exploited. This involves, as has been discussed, not mentioning that there is a bug, but i suppose security through obscurity is still security.
How many times have we seen a story on slashdot that exclaims how microsoft has yet another hole (!!!!1!) and then, 40 minutes after the bashers have played their part, someone comes on and says "people should have applied this patch (link) which is discussed in MS Knowledge base 7498923298232"? I see it all the time.
The average linux user is smarter than the average windows user. Therefore, we tend to keep our shit up to date. Microsoft tries to make it as easy as they can, but there's no such thing as idiot proof (i mean, in windows XP, the windows update service pops up on the first run of the OS and asks you if it can run in the background, checking for updates, and downloading / installing them automatically for you!).
I'm not trying to defend microsoft here, all I'm saying is that, before you bash them, think.
~Will
Actually (Score:3, Insightful)
The older systems are growing more secure, because the virus writers are going after the newere ones.
Coupled with running any e-mail program besides Outlook and you are pretty secure.
Re:Kernel upgrade... (Score:5, Insightful)
Here [microsoft.com] is the big example that I can think of -- SP6 broke all kinds of stuff. So much stuff that MS released SP6a shortly after. And that's hardly the only example.
Re:Piffle (Score:3, Insightful)
The reason for this is simple: Motivation.
Microsoft isn't motivated to patch software they are not making money on. They are motivated *not* to make changes since that can push users to upgrade. Since the code is closed, they are the only group that can act on this motivation effectively.
Linux 2.0.x and 2.2.x are maintained by people and corporations who use those kernels and are motivated to keep them secure. Since the code is open, anyone with this motivation can make corrections even if the changes are not widely distributed or placed in the main branch.
He makes a good point (Score:5, Insightful)
Although the MS guy overstates his case, it isn't always a good idea to release a patch for a system after an exploit is discovered internally that is not well known. The problem is that releasing the patch also alerts malicious individuals of the vulnerability. The real problem that must be solved first is figuring out a way to deploy a patch at a level near 100% so that releasing the patch does more good than harm.
Poor analogies (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is this phenomenon so hard to accept? When I first played around with Linux, I put up a server on multiple T1's of bandwidth to experiment. After pointing a domain to the system, it was attacked and compromised regularly, but only after a patch was released. Yes, that's right, Linux suffers the same problem. Now, I'm certainly not advocating the cessation of security patch development. The people reverse-engineering patches for exploits are small potatoes--the real threat is the person capable of ascertaining and exploiting holes on their own. However, releasing patches does facilitate the development of exploits by those who would otherwise be unable.
I hate Microsloth as much as the next geek, but the issue here is not whether patches facilitate attacks (of course they do). Exploits will occur regardless, and I for one would rather have the opportunity to pro-actively patch my systems instead of hiding in a Saddam summer home. The issue is half-assed buggy software that requires so many patches, and security holes that totally compromise systems.
Oh, and I don't buy the 'logical fallacy' BS either--I've seen it happen, so obviously their argument is invalid, or the premises false, or both.
"Even logic must give way to physics."
Re:Piffle (Score:3, Insightful)
Jay Leno owns a fleet of a hundred or so rare classic cars. In a column a few years ago he talked about how some part for one of his Packards broke, so he went to find a machinist.
Guess what? There aren't any. The one guy that he eventually found to fabricate the part was like 75 and could only do the job because he bought out some surplus tooling from a Packard factory years ago.
We live in a disposable society.
Thousands of Dollars - Thanks For Asking (Score:3, Insightful)
My desktop XP is on its fifth install. I have compressed images of the XP partitions saved on the network so I can restore the entire system state rather than reinstall from scratch.
-Hope
Compare this to the car industry (Score:3, Insightful)
Well of course you didn't. The defect still caused accidents but other factors were blamed.
This disgusts me.
Re:Must have a good source for that stuff... (Score:2, Insightful)
As pompous (not to mention unlikely) as this article sounds, I can't remember a time when a working trojan was going around, exploiting an unpatched feature. And I'd remember that, because there would be an uproar. Waiting for microsoft to release a patch while a worm attacked system after system via an unpatchable bug? It'd be a coffin nail.
Is what this guy saying -- that if you had kept your patches current, and your version (reasonably )current, you would have been unaffected by every major trojan or worm released in the past two years? In my experience, yes. So in what way is the guy not an expert? Is it because, according to OSS theory that "open source == secuirty," you'd expect him to be wrong? Or is it just because you don't like the alternate theory he presents?
Me, I don't care. As long as there's a way to keep the machines that I have to use secure, I'll do what it takes...and a $200 OS upgrade every three years or so isn't much compared to some of the support plans I've seen...
Absolutely (Score:3, Insightful)
This is completely true. Publishing the details of a hole certainly draws attention to that hole.
However, it doesn't change either the facts or history: many holes were exploited long before MS either published a description, or a patch. If MS did not publish patches, crackers would *still* discover holes, and exploit those holes.
There are several levels of cracker. There's the script kiddie, which accounts for the largest number; there's the typical malicious coder, who can create a new exploit based on the description of a hole; and there are the true malicious hackers (the ones that deserve the term, bastards as they are), who can find a hole and write an exploit.
Many security firms find holes in MS-Windows. This is without code or anything else. If good guys can find holes, why would you assume the bad guys sit around waiting for patch descriptions? That's very poor logic.
Yes, upgrading and patching will make you more secure. But, security is also dependent on the quality of the OS you run, and no amount of MS-Spin (tm) or outright lieing can change that.
Re:Piffle (Score:4, Insightful)
Each time Microsoft comes out with a new OS or product upgrade, it usually IS the most secure and state-of-the-art example of WINDOWS.
Microsoft is twenty years behind the development curve on stability and security because they spent the early years building up something that's usable. Linux is playing catch up on the usability side and Microsoft is playing catch up on the security and stability side. Each is making good ground, but IMHO, Linux is going to be the winner in the race because Microsoft has to figure out how to keep things usable AND make them secure. Linux just has to add a usability layer on top of things and make sure the new layer is secure while trusting the guts of the machine.
Heh.. then there's BSD out there actually pretending to be UNIX and not giving a crap about either of those two nutjobs.
True, but (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Upgrade sales? (Score:3, Insightful)
The best firewall doesn't protect you if you have a stupid OS sitting behind it. The most common exploits nowadays attack javascript/activeX/VBasic in IE and Outlook. Your firewall doesn't help against a remote controlled machine inside your network.
Not Necassarily. With no released patch... (Score:3, Insightful)
With the patch in hand, people can say, "Oh THAT was how they did it."
Re:Actually (Score:3, Insightful)
Win9x;
Good: Less complex, so fewer places to exploit.
Bad: All programs run as 'root'/'administrator' and no architectural protections at all beyond the system crashing (intentionally) after a priv. operation has occured (usually a program bug).
WinNT/Win2000/WinXP/...;
Good: System enforces 'root'/'administrator' access.
Bad: Most configurations and users do not respect this separation.
While these are not complete reasons, they do cover the major areas.
Security has little to do with popularity or attention. Win9x can't be hardened, and many of the older attacks still work against it as it is actually used...so why bother inventing more?
Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Its flawed alright.
First off, MS is making a statement they can't possibly know to be true. "We have never had vulnerabilities exploited before the patch was known." At best all they can say is never that they know of. Then we find out its a lie anyway because the article later says that "he could only think of one instance when a vulnerability was exploited before a patch was available".
Which is it, never or one? Or do they just not know?
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but its not the script kiddies MS is talking about that I'm worried about. Its the professional crackers who are willing to take the time to find a new exploit because they're after something more specific than bragging rights on some IRC channel. They are the ones MS isn't going to hear about because they don't go around submitting vulnerabilities or bragging about their escapades. They are the ones who are going to do real damage, and they are not the ones who are going to be stopped if MS stops issuing patches.
MS just doesn't get it.
Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't care either way, just providing interpretation.
Gross misquotes there (Score:5, Insightful)
He said no such thing. Not only does he say no such thing, but you (Michael) are clearly aware of it. To claim that the vulnerability doesn't exist until a patch appears would certainly be absurd, which is probably why no one made that claim.
The article is simply making an observation: That most vulnerabilities are not actually exploited until after a patch is released. This is an observation, not an assertion. It seems like a very reasonable one, too, since most evil crackers are not smart or patient enough to go though Windows binaries instruction-by-instruction looking for bugs. Instead, they just wait until a patch is released, and see what was patched. That way, they know where to look.
No one is claiming that a bug can't be exploited before the patch is released. They are simply pointing out that they usually aren't.
Michael, you can't just misquote people like that. It is obvious from looking at the comments here than most people did not read the article. Most people believe what you write, and don't realize that it is a gross exaggeration of what was acutally said. Even if it is Microsoft (and mind you I'm no fan of Microsoft), it's still not ok. Don't stoop to Microsoft's level; lying about your enemy is not the right way to win any battle.
It's posts like this that made me give up on Slashdot as a source of anything other than humor long ago (see the sig).
Known != Available (Score:2, Insightful)
I get a different message from this (Score:4, Insightful)
This could easily be a prelude to Microsoft releasing OS upgrades without a description of what is being done to the system. Consider how scary it will be to do your daily upgrade/update/reboot only to find that along with new fixes, they've done other nasty things like change the EULA again... of course not agreeing would mean you can no longer use the system. Or maybe they decide to do some other trashy thing like forcing an upgrade of (Insert Program Here) that you prefer not to have upgraded for some reason.
I have a feeling they might be trying to give out updates and patches without telling us what they are.
Re:Engage Brain, Think About It (Score:4, Insightful)
They're scavengers; a slightly higher form of script kiddie, who looks for knowledge won by other people and then exploits it.
Um, who do you think finds security holes in the first place? Hackers. Whether they are "evil hackers" out in the wild, white-hat hackers, or working for Symantec (or whoever), they're still hackers.
True, most people who actually exploit the holes are script kiddies, but script kiddies are not hackers.
Re:Oh really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
It's true that SOMETIMES a patch is released before the potential exploit was publicly known. But to imply that this ALWAYS happens, or to even imply that this is how it USUALLY happens is an outright and calculated attempt to deceive. That's also known as lying, as in one of those things that parents almost universally indoctrinate their children against from the time they can converse. You know why? Because lying is despicable, especially for someone in a position of responsibility.
Re:Which ignores the point.. (Score:1, Insightful)
You know, the guys that were sitting on the latest IIS hole for 6+ months waiting for MS to patch it before releasing the details?
The same guys that said they were sitting on at least two other holes?
So, what was that about the 'community of hackers' that has never found a single hole ever? Sure, the eEye guys aren't on the same level as a bunch of script kiddie worm writers.. But who are you to say that there isn't a single person out there who wants to write a worm and just happens to know enough to find one of these holes?
The holes are already there, thanks to bad coding/auditing/testing/QA/whatever. This is the point that every Slashdotter is trying to get across.
MS is almost making it sound like noone should be looking for these holes, noone should be fixing them. They want us to believe that by never disclosing vulnerabilities, they will never be exploited. Which is all well and good, if you can completely ignore the fact that the holes are already there.
Not *that* outrageous statement (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Piffle (Score:4, Insightful)
Every once in a while you hear stories about a company running a dedicated-purpose machine with a fixed set of software for decades because it does the job it's supposed to.
For these people, the real waste of resources would be requalifying their system after an upgrade.
When a vendor provides support for crusty old architectures like VAX or HP minicomputers for years and years, people say that that's great "enterprise-level" support. When a couple of guys maintain security patches of older Linux kernels, you say it's a "waste".
You people are forgetting something (Score:3, Insightful)
The lesson is: practice safe computing. All platforms have flaws, and since 90% of the desktop market is MS, that of course is going to be the target platform for viruses. I bet you anything that if Linux was the defacto standard for desktops in the home and enterprise, that we would see a hell of a lot more security issues arise on that platform.
Re:Oh really? (Score:4, Insightful)
What is this, a game of telephone? The further into the thread we go, the more wildly inaccurate the posts have become.
Well, in that case, Bill Gates recently declared "The world is flat. The sky is green. Earth is the center of the universe." That's right. Mod me up, baby!
No, not really (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Gross misquotes there (Score:1, Insightful)
Yes he did.
"In a keynote speech to the E-Crime Congress organised by Britain's National Hi-Tech Crime Unit, Mr Aucsmith said the tools that hackers were producing were getting better and shrinking the time between patches being issued and exploits being widely known.
"We have never had vulnerabilities exploited before the patch was known," he said."
There. Does that clear it up for you? He said it, Slashdot reported it, and you tried to spin it.
I can't believe I'm defending them... (Score:4, Insightful)
Stay with me, I'm as surprised as anyone else.
Consider this: you buy a window that says it will stop insects. And it does. But then some nut genetically enhances* an insect to have diamond tip cutters that can cut through the window. Since the window did keep out all know insects when originally sold, the manufacture really isn't liable for the new one and is allowed to say 'the new model fixes it', though they could release a spray the would cover your old model but possibly introduce new problems.
Yes, that's a terrible analogy, but it shows that they have a bit of a point: any business would go out of business if they had to fix problems that were ineffable at the time of the original sale. Where this falls down with Microsoft, of course, is whether the problems were from completely new areas, or flaws in their original work that they just ignored and denied -- similar to how certain problems in cars/children's toy result in recalls, but other problems don't. (e.g. it isn't a problem if a toy breaks after 3 years of continued use, but it's a problem if it breaks in a potentially injurious way - and let's not get started on the liability/lemon laws that Microsoft avoids with EULA.)
* And this isn't intended as an attack on genetic engineering per se. But anyone who does this to insects would be, in my opinion, a nut.
Re:Wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Post leaves out most important quote (Score:3, Insightful)
A researcher finds a vulnerability. The researcher reports it to Microsoft. The researcher waits up to a year (in the case of the ASN.1 vulnerability) for a patch to be released. Simultaneous with the release of the patch, the researcher posts how to exploit it. So yes, usually the information about the vulnerability comes after the patch... by a few minutes.
Now ask yourself: what if the researcher doesn't contact M$ first?
No S**t! (Score:4, Insightful)
You're not going to see worms using unknown sploits because the developer woub essentially be giving away a tool that could be used for perhaps more nefarious purposes.
And furthermore, I wonder how people would know to notify MS about unknown an exploit that's been used to crack a system when such exploits either crash the system (which NT admins are very use to experiencing during NORMAL use and will ignore the crash) or are used in a covert manner, not warranting attention from NT admins in the first place.
If this is the kind of logic MS has behind it's security department, then MS is just doomed.
This kind of logic is just so incredibly flawed I can't even comprehend how an educated person could think that way. It's like say "well, whenever I go to sleep, the sun goes down, so if I don't go to sleep the sun will stay up".
Just absolutely ludicrous.
The (not so) recent mass breakdown of basic critical thinking skills among people in powerful positions around the United States just scares the crap out of me.
Re:An article disproving this... (Score:3, Insightful)
If a Republican says something ludicrous, there is always a Democrat close to a TV camera who will invariably say, "That's ludicrous!"
If a scientist says something ludicrous, there are about one hundred thousand other scientists with access to journal publication and mainstream media to say, "That's ludicrous!"
Who is the opposition to Microsoft? Who does the mainstream world listen to on a regular basis about computing matters other than Microsoft?
Re:You people are forgetting something (Score:4, Insightful)
But you wouldn't have somebody in authority effectively stating that problems can be addressed by keeping them quiet. If somebody from one of the distributions did say that, users would be able to make a judgement on whether or not it might be better to migrate to a competing supplier. Emphasis on competing. The only reason MS can pay somebody to spout nonsense like this is because they have a monopoly. I hope and believe that that time is coming to an end now.
Re:Assume for me... (Score:3, Insightful)
Something like a locksmith. Would someone claim that a locksmith can't get into a lock unless he's cracked it before or has seen blueprints of the lock? Rubbish.
I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but that's the type of example you need. Computer programs, like locks, follow patterns and have standard ways of doing things (e.g. reading a string into a buffer). Once you understand the ways of the craft, you can break into any non-perfect system in enough time.
Cheers
Re:Gross misquotes there (Score:3, Insightful)
You might like living in your world of literal interpretation, most of the rest of us are happy with a language where context matters.
Now if that misquote was presented as a quote and not a paraphrase then the author is either a liar, hard of hearing, has trouble reading, or needs to be more careful when using those quote marks. But, for almost everyone the misquote has the same meaning anyway.
patches are not really the problem. (Score:5, Insightful)
ANY two OS releases can be compared to detect the changes which can then be reversed engineered. It may be more complex as the security changes are mixed with other changes but blackhats have the time and, it increasingly appears funding, to do the research.
It looks like MS are applying "security through obscurity" as a business policy.
Re:Gross misquotes there (Score:5, Insightful)
That--to me-- is not "never."
Re:Oh really? (Score:3, Insightful)
Civil Action anyone for M$ causing damge to our machines?
Re:Known != Available (Score:3, Insightful)
Right - but irrelevant.
"there is no contradiction."
Wrong.
MS is claiming sequence of events as:
1) Vulnerability discovered.
2) Patch created, distributed.
3) Exploit created (from study of patch).
This MS spokesperson is claiming that "We have never had vulnerabilities exploited before the patch was known." - i.e., EVERY exploit came after the patch was available (AFTER #2 above) but he also states that he could think of at least one instance where "a vulnerability was exploited before a patch was available" (BEFORE #2 above).
As the parent poster stated, it is either never or not never; it can't be both BEFORE and AFTER #2 above at the same time.
Re:Partly right (Score:3, Insightful)
What you should REALLY worry about is the folks that say, "if I steal corporate secrets from [pick a large tech company] I can make $10 million selling them to the highest bidder in [pick a country that has emerging tech], thus it is worth my time to spend $1 million on security bug discovery." Now you have a whole other ball-game. Here, Microsoft cannot hide behind the veil of publicly reported attacks because these sorts of intrusions will be as stealthy as possbile and if the work, no one will ever know.
Thus, you have to look at how many vulnerabilities there were, say, last year and extrapolate how many people will have available to them to perform such attacks.
Open source on the other hand, contends that not only are the fewer exploits on the whole, but YOU have the source code, and can analyze it yourself and/or fix it if you find problems. When you're a huge corporation that can be a life-or-death difference because you are a very juicy target.
Patch ecomonics (Score:2, Insightful)
William, thou scurvy patch!
"And Where's The Harm?" You Ask... (Score:4, Insightful)
Aucsmith and Microsoft have succeeded in misleading the public by giving the impression that no mechanism other than the ill will of a few fiends is responsible for the appalling state of Windows security. It's not Microsoft... it's not the vulnerabilities inherent in their code... it's the bad guys!
I work with users every day. I've been in the industry for twenty years and I know that user ignorance is a powerful force in sales, marketing, design and support of IT products and services. This Aucsmith debacle is a textbook case of a company depending on it. They know that the average user doesn't have--or want--the wherewithal to think critically about statements their representatives make. It's groundwork for Next Generation computing. It stinks.
On a large scale ? (Score:2, Insightful)
The single professional hacker who exploits MY work server and modifies/steals the data contained is far more devestating than even a ddos directed at me by a script kiddy, but because professional hackers don't brag about their exploits in irc, these vulnerabilities will go largely unnoticed by MS until someone else discovers it and exploits it large scale or posts it to a discussion on security so that MS can fix it.
Large scale exploits are not the only concern here.
On another note, if you discover that you have been hacked, you would try to remove any backdoors that may have been installed and upgrade/re-install all your software but how do you figure out which exploit was used ? Is it a known exploit or is it a new one ?
I visit a website that has been hacked and taken down twice in the last two months. It seems that the maintainer simply didn't know how they got in, so put the box back up with basically the same configuration, plus some security patches from the distro website but it obviously didn't include the right patch, or possibly it was a configuration thing and not buggy software at fault so they got in again and hosed his server again.
So, how do you determine how they got in apart from scanning your own box for vulnerabilities and assuming it was one of those ?
This Statement Says It All (Score:3, Insightful)
"If you want more secure software, upgrade."
They WANT YOU TO SPEND MONEY TO MAKE BILL RICHER!
This is the sole and total purpose of this idiot's comments.
That simple.
No further discussion is necessary.
Re:Oh really? (Score:1, Insightful)
For the record, I am not a developer so I don't know for sure if this is accurate or not.
How to create an exploit from patch (Score:2, Insightful)
1. backup current system
2. install security patch
3. compare files
4. reverse engineer differences & refer to the security advisory
5. create an exploit
but:
what if step 3 was made difficult, say, by obsfuscate the new file, so comparation with old file will result in way to much difference?
Just an idea
Hmmm... (Score:2, Insightful)