Stoplights to Mete Out Punishment?

gilrain writes "The San Francisco Chronicle is reporting that traffic engineers have created a stoplight that deals with speeding. According to the article, 'It senses when a speeder is approaching and metes out swift punishment. It doesn't write a ticket. It immediately turns from green to yellow to red.' This is not just a prototype: it is in use now at an intersection in the Bay Area. Does stopping speeders before others serve a purpose other than petty revenge? Is it even safe to change expected stoplight patterns, especially for drivers in a hurry?"

Old Tech

[BillFarber]

In the town where I grew up about 20 years ago, there was a light that did that. It was on a 25 MPH road, and if you were going faster than 28 or so, it would turn red. We would go out of our way to avoid that light.

Another solution looking for a problem

[Safety Cap]

For all you that don't RTFA:

Many neighbors are so peeved with the popularity of the road that they didn't want a traffic signal at all at Montevino because it would allow traffic to flow better than the stop sign it replaced. At least the stop signs made speeding impossible and persuaded some commuters to steer clear, neighbors said.

As far as speeding tickets goes, it is a doucmented fact that traffic laws are not for safety but revenue generation. This bad boy will probably pay for itself in no time and continue to reap dividends for years to come.

Combine the "smart" light with the auto ticket-giving camera (don't need to pay for the copy to write tickets!) and city budget problems will be cured overnight. Oh, and when people get smart and start slowing down, just decrease the yellow-light time and watch your profits rise!

America: Best profit-making government money can buy.

If this is new it ain't very new

[phearlez]

I drive on Herndon Parkway in Herndon, Virginia every day to and from work and there are 3 stoplights over an a stretch of about 3 miles that behave this way. Been in place for the last year I've lived in the area, I dunno how much before that.

Excellent plan!

[ke4roh]

This will make for excellent driver behavior modification. In the town where I used to live, people habitually stopped their cars in the intersections for red lights (just past the stop bar). When they put in sensors, people quickly figured out they needed to stop on the sensor - which was where the car was supposed to be in the first place. Likewise, if speeding produces no benefit, people will stop speeding.

As for running red lights, cameras can mete out punishment for that, too.

In my city

[zakezuke]

I've noted that alot of the lights are actually timed so if you go a given speed, it's all green. But in most cases, if you actually go the speed limit, you are assured to actually catch every light. Specificly there is this 30 zone that goes right into downtown. I can either drive the entire distance at 30mph and stop every 3 or 4 city blocks or I can go 35mph and stop only a handful of times.

While the timming is off in this case, I find it an excelent system to keep me within the speed zone that they approve of.

Re:Stoplights say a lot about the people

[Debillitatus]

More evidence that Europeans are a more civilized in their driving?

Are you insane? You ever been to Rome?

Re:Another solution looking for a problem

[Safety Cap]

>And the documentation you mention would be...

Pick a city, any city. Check out NTSB stats on that city's traffic accident rates. Now check out that city's municipal revenue from the traffic courts. For bonus points, do a time series.

Correlate, interpret, conclude.

Re:Bad Idea...

[nharmon]

In my home town, the yellow light gives you 4 seconds before it turns red. It does not matter if the street being traveled has a 25mph limit, or 55mph limit. 4 seconds is not enough time when you are traveling 50mph.

Re:Stoplights say a lot about the people

[devnullkac]

One possible reason for the red-yellow-green sequence is that in many European jurisdictions, drivers are required to take their manual transmission completely out of gear, rather than simply keeping the clutch in. The yellow light warns them to get the car in gear so they'll be ready to go when it's green. Not as relevant in these days of cheap automatic transmissions, but it's the sort of thing that's tough to just get rid of.

Lights can render speed limits irrelevant

[rewt66]

I remember a small town that we went through in the 1970s. They didn't have speed limits at all. But they had signs that said, "Traffic lights synchronized for 25 MPH". As soon as you figured out that the signs were telling the truth, you drove 25. If you didn't, you hit every single light red.

We have them in sweden - they work very well

[jaclu]

We have speed-triggered traficlights on a lot of places, typically on places with one-lonely light on a 70kmh road.
The only differense is that they idle red 4-ways, as soon as somebody comes close, a sensor notices it. After the time legal speed would require, it goes green (unless crossing trafic is in a green of course ;). So when you get close to those lights, there is no point in going to fast - you know that will force you to stop, so you just slow down to legal speed ;)

Re:what about other drivers?

[spiffturk]

...The problem of speeding..

Laws against speeding are stupid. See this report by the US Department of Transportation [ibiblio.org].

In a nutshell: people ignore speed limits and drive the speed they feel is safe, regardless of what the speed limit is.

As a result of this, it can be inferred that speed limits (for the most part--though there are exceptions) are set unreasonably low and as such serve no true purpose other than to generate revenue. It seems to me that laws that exist for no other reason than to fund their own enforcement shouldn't exist.

And for those that say speeders cause accidents--read the report I linked to. It begs to differ.

--
Will

Re:Another solution looking for a problem

[Anonymous Coward]

1) California normally allows the establishment of speed limits for roads and highways only after an engineering survey determining the appropriate safe speeds for those roads. (California Committee Analysis, StateNet, af Bill No. AB 872, May 9, 2003 hearing.) People v. Goulet (13 Cal.App.4th.Supp. 1; 17 Cal.Rptr.2d 801) pointed out that speed limits set more than 5 miles below the 85th percentile "do not facilitate the orderly movement of traffic." They do, however, generate larger revenues for cities, because more "reasonable and prudent" people will speed.

2)http://www.roadsense.com.au/homepage.html
Qou te - Based on the facts that we have researched from around the world as well as Australia, not even two percent (2%) of road crash fatalities occur above the speed limit while over ninety eight (98%) occur below the speed limit. (Based on government research - exposed in "Below the Radar" book.)

3)http://www.motorists.com/issues/speed/fhwa_rep or t.html
-Ouote "Based on the sites selected for this study, it appears that highway agencies have a tendancy to set speed limits slightly below the average speed of traffic"

-Ouote "There is not sufficient evidence in this dataset to reject the hypothesis that crash experience changed when posted speed limits were either raised or lowered." Translation - The raising or lowering of speed limits did not have any effect on automobile accidents.

And the beat goes on....

Re:Aww, unfair to speeders!

[Grishnakh]

the funny part is that speeding does NOT get you there any faster than the guy driving the speed limit.

What kind of idiotic statement is this? Simple math proves that faster speeds equate to less time spent in travel.

Suppose you're driving to a city 400 miles away. At 60 mph, it'll take you 6.67 hours to get there. If you go 15 mph faster, you'll get there in 5.33 hours, which amounts to a 1.34-hour savings. Do you really want to sit in your car that much longer on a long trip?

The using more gas part is incorrect too. Fuel consumption is fairly complex, and is different for every vehicle, depending on aerodynamics, gearing, engine design, etc. Many vehicles get better fuel economy at speeds over 60.

It's not the first time...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, this sounds kind of like something that was pulled in St. Louis a few years back...A police officer got a hold of a button that would change a light quickly from green to red when he saw a motorist approaching. They wouldn't have time to stop, and he would pull them over and give them a ticket for running the light. Made the news and everything. The courts quickly ruled it illegal. Is it much different when a computer does it instead of a cop? And although they're not handing out fines yet...

Re:Timing it right could be tricky

[gilmour14]

About Peeing in the Pool... [snopes.com]

Re:automatic transmissions

[dollargonzo]

cheap is often not the issue. i was in germany and there a lot of people still have manuals. why? because the engine has to have a certain minimum amount of power to not stall with an automatic. this is around 100hp. the ford mondeo (at least when i saw it) was about 80hp.

Re:Another solution looking for a problem

[thelexx]

Start here:

www.hwysafety.com [hwysafety.com]

Re:what about other drivers?

[Anonymous Coward]

Urban Legend, http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/snaptrap.asp [snopes.com]

Something better here in Brazil

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in Florianopolis (Brazil) we have something much better. We have 5 lights for green and red lights; 5 green, 1 yellow, 5 red. The way it works is that the go in descending order, in other words, when it's on green and its about to go yellow, it goes down the 5 green lights first, then go to the yellow one and red. And the same way for red lights, when it's about to go green it goes down the 5 red lights and then green and so forth...It works very well because the drivers know when it will turn green, yellow and red.

Re:Timing it right could be tricky

[EboMike]

If you are twitchy enough to flash your high beams 14 times per second. [defrance.org] Good luck.

Re:Speeding in perpindicular directions?

[kavau]

Did it occur to you that the traffic lights may show red in all four directions?

Re:California

[Dirtside]

Quite a lot of places allow diagonal pedestrian crossing, and for very good reason. The places that do it typically have very high pedestrian traffic volumes, and it's better for both vehicle and pedestrian throughput (and safety) to have distinct vehicle and pedestrian walk cycles. Pasadena, here in southern California, has numerous diagonal crosswalks in the Old Town area (which is an extremely popular entertainment/dining area). Beverly Hills has several of them in its downtown, due to the relatively large amount of pedestrian traffic.

And here's a general idea: Next time you feel yourself getting really INDIGNANT and ANGRY about something you don't UNDERSTAND, you might want to stop and think about it, or maybe look into it, before posting a BLITHERING SCREED that makes you look like an ignorant [slashdot.org] nitwit. :)

Welcome to BELGIUM !

[Anonymous Coward]

In Belgium, such traffic lights already exists. I know a town named Vinderhoute near the city of Ghent where there's a big sign 50m before the traffic lights : 'more than 50kmph = RED LIGHT'.

It actually jumps to red when you're approaching it too fast. This red light has no other goal then slowing down speeders.

Fine for me, but if I'm approaching it at 49kmph and the driver behind is driving just a little too fast I'm being punished for respecting the law.

Re:Timing it right could be tricky

[hazee]

"but can we define speeding?"

How about this:

At 40mph, 9 in 10 pedestrians struck by cars are killed.
At 30mph, half are killed.
At 20mph, 9 in 10 survive.

Seems like a pretty compelling statistic to me. As you state, pedestrians can wander out in front of you whatever speed you're doing, but if you end up hitting them, surely it's better to be doing 20mph than 40mph?

Yes, you could argue that maybe at 1mph, 999 out of 1000 would survive, which is even better, but obviously a practical limit has to be established, and given the dramatic change in numbers above, it would seem to lie around 20-30mph.

This applies just as strongly on an apparently deserted city road at 2am as during the day, probably more so, as you're probably even less likely to anticipate that lone pedestrian suddenly jumping out at you.

So I'd argue that the numbers above should apply to anywhere there are likely to be pedestrians, ie: urban areas. Freeways/motorways on the other hand, could reasonably be expected to be clear of pedestrians at all times, and hence subject to much higher limits.