Stoplights to Mete Out Punishment? 995
gilrain writes "The San Francisco Chronicle is reporting that traffic engineers have created a stoplight that deals with speeding. According to the article, 'It senses when a speeder is approaching and metes out swift punishment. It doesn't write a ticket. It immediately turns from green to yellow to red.' This is not just a prototype: it is in use now at an intersection in the Bay Area. Does stopping speeders before others serve a purpose other than petty revenge? Is it even safe to change expected stoplight patterns, especially for drivers in a hurry?"
Timing it right could be tricky (Score:3, Interesting)
Still, one thing to be really clear about is (a) don't set it up so that if you really speed you make it through the yellow, but (b) don't make it so far away that you catch someone ahead of the speeder with the red light!
By the way, I've had lights change to red on me for no apparent reason, and wondered if this policy was already implemented. It was in the Bay Area, but not Pleasanton.
This reminds me... (Score:3, Interesting)
It was deemed crooked by the show, and it's crooked now.
What a bad idea (Score:4, Interesting)
Stoplights say a lot about the people (Score:5, Interesting)
In the states, this doesn't happen. It's almost as if we can't do that to people in the US - they'd run the yellow at the red. More evidence that Europeans are a more civilized in their driving?
Re:great! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Danger (Score:2, Interesting)
I bet it's the all-powerful casketmakers' lobby behind this... Get your tinfoil hat.
I saw this (Score:2, Interesting)
Vehicular safety ONLY FUNCTIONS when the behavior of all of the drivers is as PREDICTABLE as possible. That's why we have stoplights in the first place, if you think about it.
I can't wait for the first time it rains in this area. One person will speed, the light will suddenly turn red, half the cars will notice and come to a sudden stop, some of the cars will stop more slowly than others because of the slippery road, some will hydroplane... just THINK of the number of rear-end collisions you'd get. (And, of course, in each case, the insurance companies would place "at fault" the person in rear for failing to notice the without-warning red light immediately and stop immediately, or for failing to predict the person in front of them might come to a stop without warning...)
Re:Stoplights say a lot about the people (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe drivers are more rule-abiding in Switzerland. But you should try going to Italy sometime. In Italy, stop signals are regarded as mere suggestions. Many a tourist has been rear-ended by naively deciding to actually stop at a stop signal, and thus catching all other drivers completely by surprise.
Re:If this is new it ain't very new (Score:2, Interesting)
Great, the one thing people respect... (Score:1, Interesting)
They will stop partially because they are "programmed" to do so, but also out of self preservation- a red light means cars coming from the other side.
This mechanism disrupts the natural order of things, turning a neutral respected tool (the stop light) into an instrument of morality (because no one is being helped directly by you stopping because you were in a hurry).
The overall effect is that if you are driving and the light turns red... not only might there not be any cars who need to go by, but those cars might not even have a red light!
Now brought to you by the Ministry of Traffic: Intersections with four red lights at once! For the convenience of all!
I hope that the "shotgun vote" that defeated metric streetsigns goes into effect here.
Speeding in perpindicular directions? (Score:5, Interesting)
| | me, 85 mph |
| V |
--------- -------------
you, 85 mph O
-----> O light, changes quickly
O from red to green to red...
--------- -------------
| |
| |
| |
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All over the place over here (Score:5, Interesting)
An effctive alternative is a traffic light that is red and turn green a fixed amount of time after an approaching car has come to a certain distance. Those who were going too fast have to stop, others can drive on smoothly.
Re:Old Tech (Score:3, Interesting)
While I was visiting Portugal during the winter, I ran into many traffic lights setup in a similar fashion. They were a necessity: often times parts of a major road would run right through the center of a town. If speeding cars were allowed to pass through (mostly empty roads in the country, so speeding was not uncommon), they would put the townsfolk walking around in a lot danger.
Re:Timing it right could be tricky (Score:3, Interesting)
I saw a traffic light working exactly as described in Italy more than 8 years ago in a mountain locality.
It was tuned to become red if the speed of the car approaching was more than the 50 Km/h allowed in the town.
It has a strong psycologic effect
HOWTO: How to speed and avoid a red light (Score:2, Interesting)
Of course the speeder has to accelerate to 70 MPH before entering the "zone" where the camera can measure speed.
Now what was once an only slightly unsafe problem (someone doing 10 over the limit) becomes VERY UNSAFE, someone doing 30 over the limit.
All I can say, is BRILLIANT!
Perhaps these brilliant traffic engineers will then think, "Ah ha! We can decrease the yellow light duration to nothing. That will solve it!"
Wrong again. Someone like that obviously doesn't understand the psychology of those speeders. Removing the minimum yellow duration makes the intersection VERY dangerous. If they just turn the light instantly red, and keep the lights in the other directions red too, speeders will learn that the "instant red" light is "not really a red light at all" and will learn to ignore it and speed on through. Now you'll have speeders AND red-light runners. That's a lovely combination.
Brilliant!
Re:what about other drivers? (Score:5, Interesting)
I heard a related funny story a few weeks ago. The police have these trailer units that detect speed and usually just show the number to make people aware of how fast they're going. The new ones check if you're speeding and take a picture of the back of the car as it passes and the owner of that license plate is issued a ticket (they do the same thing with stoplight mounted systems, but these are mobile for smaller towns). Someone with huge brass ones stole the license plate off of the back of the trailer. They put the plate on their own car and drove in front of the trailer a dozen times at 100 MPH. The next week a dozen reckless driving tickets were delivered to the police department. I hope it's true.
All this stuff is just another step towards our 24 hour survailance. "If you're not a criminal, then you won't have anything to hide."
-B
What about emergency vehicles (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, I know, they already "run" red lights to respond to emergencies, but they are slowed down by virtue of pulling to the intersection, making sure other vehicles have recognized that they're about to pass through and then continuing towards the emergency.
Still, do we need to complicate the jobs of first-responders by making sure every stop-light between them and someone in need of immediate assistance will turn RED?
They had these in my area, they don't work (Score:5, Interesting)
Things like this are a Good Idea(tm) in theory, but when put into practice fall quite short of the mark.
Additionally, their triggers are often set to unreasonable levels, such as 5 miles over the speed limit, which can easily happen due to sensor differences and upward drift of speed in between glances.
Re:Stoplights say a lot about the people (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Speeding in perpindicular directions? (Score:1, Interesting)
Besides, in your scenario, one of the two people was going to blow the red light anyway (why would you be approaching a red light at 85 MPH?). There was going to be an accident no matter what.
Re:Timing it right could be tricky (Score:3, Interesting)
If you think the average joe will slow down, a sadist will speed up and just run the red, especially since the consequences are only effective if the person cares enough to break one law, but to follow another without repricussions. I dunno about you, but when I'm driving in the bay area there are sure as hell a lot of sadistic drivers. And this is *REALLY* gonna curb the street racing groups who care a whole lot about traffic laws to begin with.
That, and will it change anything if the same guy who's speeding has an IR remote to change the signal back? Good god no more messing with these systems. PLEASE GOD NO INPUT DEVICES in public systems like this AT ALL.
Re:Timing it right could be tricky (Score:5, Interesting)
Part of the problem with speeding (in fact, I'd go so far as to say most of the problem) is the ease at which motorists can obtain driving privilidges. It costs next to nothing, the DMV's are so overworked in metropolitian areas that the "barrier for entry", is VERY low. As a good anecdotal example, I had to take my driving test twice. I took one in the boondocks (no wait time) and one in the city (4 hour wait time for the test alone, 7 to actually complete the license). Here's the run down of my experiences:
Boondocks (where I failed):
I had to, in no particular order -
back around a corner,
park on both an uphill and a downhill grade,
drive along streets with varying speed limits of 20-45mph
park in a parking lot
there was more to the test, but I failed by rubbing on the curb during downhill parking (I guess that's a "dangerous action", and considered an instant failure. Oh well.)
total time elapsed: > 30 minutes not including what would come after the failure.
City: back around a corner
drive on one 20mph street
total time elapsed: < 5 minutes.
As you can see, the test where there were no people waiting was FAR more involved and probably a better test of my driving ability, although I still claim shenanigans on the curb thing, dangerous my ass... Any how, make it more difficult to get it, like in Germany, where license costs are almost two orders of magnitude more expensive than ours are. And they test to make sure you know your machine and your rules. (As an aside, I say the German idea of "road etiquette" should be adopted as soon as possible in the States. Pass on the right my ass. Once you hit your intended crusing speed, hit the right lane. Pass only on the left. Perfection if I've ever seen it.)
But regardless, I will concede that for the foreseeable future, there will be jackasses who absolutely have to get ahead, feel the need to swerve in and out of traffic because they just saw the "Fast and the Furious", etc. I say, make it easy for them to do it so they stay the hell away from motorists who are safe and conscientious, while still allowing Joe Average to get where he needs to go in a reasonable amount of time without the hassle of stop and go.
Re:great! (Score:3, Interesting)
IMHO this is the big problem with the system. Moving violations are no longer deterrents because people are willing to hire a lawyer and piss away court time to fight it, and it seems that most of the time they get off.
Break the law? No problem, just take it to court. Personal responsibility? No thanks, this is America where we have the right to break the law and not be punished, apparently.
The law was written with the understanding that the has a minimum amount of time that it stays yellow, allowing somebody to stop or go through. When you break that bargain, then the law becomes unreasonable.
Re:Aww, unfair to speeders! (Score:2, Interesting)
Besides, not sure if this is a chicken/egg or if this is a causational/ correlational issue, but ever notice the "natural" speed of a road is about 10 MPH over the limit, and 10 MPH over is where the fines are actually worth giving out?
ever wondered ... (Score:3, Interesting)
1- "hmm ... maybe i'm being unsafe to my fellow citizen and this radared red light is only warning me that i am a potential danger! I should slow down so as to no longer endanger the lives of my fellow, taxpaying citizen! i'll just be late to my meeting and the boss will have to wait"
2- "GODAM@#$*(@# STOOPID @#$*()@*@# LIGHT GONNA GET ME LATE TO THE MEETING !!!!! COMON YOU STOO@()#*$(*@ B*TCH GO GREEN ALLREADY COMON!!!!!!"
Like it not not, rightfull or not, this isn't gonna help anything.
Re:California (Score:4, Interesting)
They'd better. Denver's whack. Is there any other town in the WORLD where pedestrians can cross an intersection DIAGONALLY, right through the center of the intersection? So that pedestrians can pull off this amazing stunt, you'll be sitting at a four way stop light for a minute or so to allow granny to walk through THE MIDDLE OF THE INTERSECTION.
With weird ass customs such as this, Denven had BETTER allow left turns on red!
Re:Timing it right could be tricky (Score:5, Interesting)
I hit a deer at 75 on the interstate once, now I generally drive around 5mph slower than the speed limit.
See, life threatening situations can cause a drop in average speed a lot better than tickets ever will, so maybe they should setup a system that releases deer when it detects an oncomming speeding car.
This isn't new (Score:1, Interesting)
I tested it and it appeared to work as rpomised.
Re:Stoplights say a lot about the people (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Negative Reinforcement? (Score:2, Interesting)
For the same reason it doesn't stop traffic jams. The individual is not directly penalised. You said it yourself - it makes *everybody* later to get home. But I bet those who weave and cut people off and so on get home just a little bit faster than everyone else, even if the average person is slowed. Let's face it, who is delayed, the person cutting someone off, or the person being cut off?
The traffic light idea is interesting. In theory it precisely punishes the offender. You speed, you get stopped.
In practice, I can see any number of problems with the notion, even before reading the discussion here, which I'll bet is full of smartarses poking holes in the system.
-- Pete, registered smartarse
My Driving Test (Score:5, Interesting)
I thought that I would use the opportunity to get a learner's permit. I filled out the papers and took the eyetest. Then the written test with pictures of the correct answer in order to aid the large number of people in Louisana who can't read.
As soon as I passed the written, the state trooper stood up and said 'Ready to drive?'. I borrowed the keys to my friend's car and very slowly and carefully drove around the block. Thank god it was an automatic transmission.
I thought that I was doing OK until the last stretch of the block which was an expressway. I actually got up to about 45 MPH and then pulled back into the Motor Vehicles lot and cut the engine.
The state trooper started to write something on the form and then just looked at me and said "Girlie, You don't drive worth a piece of shit! You'se lucky you didn't get somebody killed back there! Well, I'm gonna give you your license anyway, but I strongly suggest that you learn how to drive!"
I went in, completed the papers, paid the fees, took the photo, and became a fully registered driver in the great state of Louisana.
When I got home I started laughing and couldn't stop for ten minutes.
I had never driven a car before in my life!
(But I had read a book on it at the library.)
Re:Timing it right could be tricky (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:All over the place over here (Score:2, Interesting)
When I was living in Albuquerque, New Mexico, we had a couple streets that lead to and from downtown. The speed limit was 30 (I think) and if you went 30, you had a green light all the way. If you went over 30, you were likely to get a red at least once.
Oh and there were signs telling drivers this.
It worked great. No one ever sped on those roads. Now the other roads
Re:Another solution looking for a problem (Score:2, Interesting)
The farmers who owned the land on each side of this speed trap were getting upset at the bad name their town was getting from this, so they put up billboards next to the highway on their land announcing to slow down for the Auxvasse speed trap. The city told them to take the billboards down, and their response was, "Why? We're trying to help people obey the law like you want them to, right?" They agreed to take down the signs when the city raised the speed limit there back up to match the rest of the highway.
Re:Timing it right could be tricky (Score:2, Interesting)
The police would only catch one out of every million criminals - but that poor guy would be beheaded publicly as an example to the rest not to sin.
In a utopian country - every sin would have an immediate but porportionate punishment - and no one would do wrong on the assumption that they might "get away with it."
I think that on balance this is a very good move.
The general trend towards catching everyone (cameras, IRS requiring employees to collect taxes, searching every box that crosses the border) tend to sacrifice privacy in exchange for a more balanced distribution of the punantive burden.
This is brilliant - no fun intended - because it is a strong move toward utopia with a zero increase in big brother intrusion. The traffic engineer should be applauded by both sides on this one - and I think the complainers here would do well to reconsider.
Even the hassle of a unequally timed light is trivial next to the cost in human suffering caused by speeding.
AIK
Re:Timing it right could be tricky (Score:2, Interesting)
These local people will soon learn whether they can safely(?) go on through at a speed that causes the light to turn red (and whether it turns red for them only). If the police are present they will get tickets. After the police no longer attend the intersection daily, there will be fewer tickets, but still attempts to "beat the light". The police may be able to use other monitoring methods including CCTV, but that is not what I meant. It is not presently useful to install CCTV at all major intersections, but that would be a way to help reduce the intersection rushers.
Re:Something better here in Brazil (Score:3, Interesting)
In major cities in India we have 2 digit LED displays on traffic lights that actually count down... it helps in many ways-
1. Reduces driver axiety - So people are less tempted to "gunning" their engines
2. Reduces road rage - People are less tempted to jump lights
3. You can see the signals from a distance and read the timer counting down... so you slow down well in advanced if you find you can't make it in time.
4. Less (well almost) fuel wastage since if the time reads anything above ~30 seconds you can easily switch off the engine and start it when the count is down to 5.
And it doesn't cost too much money either!!