Technology Makes New Cars Too Expensive to Fix 1246
securitas writes "The CSM's Eric Evarts reports on how technology makes new cars too expensive to repair, which may lead to disposable cars. The increased use of expensive electronics, air bags and advanced, lightweight body materials are causing costs to rise. Add to it the cost of specialized training and equipment (for an aluminum-body repair shop: $200,000) or even the cost of new parts alone (xenon high-intensity-discharge headlights: $3,000 each), not to mention the knowledge base required (over 1 million pages, available only electronically vs. 100 pages 20 years ago) and a labor shortage. From the article: 'Specialist technicians need advanced reading, problem-solving, and basic electronics skills.... The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry.'"
Its Too Easy To Fry! (Score:5, Informative)
As these cars get more and more advanced its getting harder for doityourselfers to even attempt to modify or maintian them.
Oxymoron? (Score:0, Informative)
If the radiator mount is strong, how can it be brittle at the same time?
Re:Recycling (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, "strong" isn't a very precise term when talking about materials and different types of strength are better suited for different tasks.
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:5, Informative)
If the radiator mount is strong, how can it be brittle at the same time?
High tensile strength, low ductile strength.
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Whoever moderated this troll (Score:0, Informative)
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:2, Informative)
Strength is related to how much force a material can take before it yields (bends plastically).
Brittleness is a function of toughness (ductility), or how much impact a material can take before it breaks.
For most materials, strength and ductility are inversely proportional. It takes some fancy alloying and creative manufacturing to create a material that has both.
For instance, a lot of titanium alloys are very strong, but also very brittle.
After-market services (Score:5, Informative)
So instead of replacing your spark plugs (~$15), you have to replace the plugs, the wiring, etc. The total cost? More than $100 for some. It's intentional - it's like soldering your CPU to your motherboard so you have to replace the whole board in order to upgrade/replace your CPU. I believe Packard Bell used to do this, and look where they are now.
It's not just electronics (Score:2, Informative)
Engine bays are so small these days (either because the car is a compact or because the emphasis is put on the roomiest interior possible) that one often has to drop the entire engine to change things like a timing chain or an alternator.
I have an econobox here that I brought to a small garage because I have a sump gasket leak, and the guy said that he'd take so much time just getting the engine out and back in that it's just not worth fixing. (On a side note, modern cars are supposed to be environmentally friendly, but cars that are left leaking oil or plain junked because they're not economically worth fixing don't seem very green to me).
Anyway, the short is, on my old '69 Charger, I can pass full size regular tool around the engine and still have spare room to work, while I'd need very expensive, specialized tools, and very flexible cervicals to work on an econobox. And that's not counting the electronics at all...
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:3, Informative)
A brittle part will crack and break shortly after exceeding its yield strength. A tough part will stretch and deform after reaching its yield strength, finally breaking at a much higher stress level. However, it is possible for a given brittle part to have a much higher yield strength than a given tough (or ductile) part. The material used, and the production method, and the heat treating process all affect the material's final strength.
In other words, it's kinda complicated. : )
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:3, Informative)
Strong will tell you what it takes for magnesium to bend--a lot. Brittle will tell you what magnesium will do when it bends--it breaks.
Think of the old super ball in liquid nitrogen trick. It doesn't take much to deform a super ball at room temp. But it isn't brittle and won't break. Freeze a super ball and it gains strength--you probably won't be able to deform it with your hands. But throw it down or hit it with a hammer and it will shatter. It becomes brittle.
Re:The problem is... (Score:3, Informative)
http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20040407.html
Quote:
In 1951, Chrysler introduced a new line of V8 engines called the
Hemi. The name came from the cylinder heads, which had a
hemispherical design. The design itself wasn't new, but it had never been used
in a passenger car before.
As TheHemi.Com [thehemi.com] explains, the
Hemi engine differs from standard V8 engines in three main ways:
efficiency. Thus, the engine can create more power without increasing
compression, which would entail a higher octane fuel.
side-by-side, to allow better intake and exhaust gas flow.
combustion in the chambers.
A photographic comparison [thehemi.com] of the
Hemi and other engine types might help explain the differences. If you really
know your stuff, you can race through this incredibly [victorylibrary.com]
detailed explanation. And if you want to get revved up about Hemis, check
out Hot Rod Magazine [hotrod.com]
for an article about a Hemi exhibit at the Walter P. Chrysler Museum. It might
just spark your interest.
'Strength' is a measure of energy absorbtion (Score:5, Informative)
After you undergo elastic deformation (where the item returns back to its original shape, within tolerance), you reach plastic deformation, where the item will not return to its original shape.
Different materials have different strength ratings for compression (crushing), tension (pulling), sheer opposite forces in a different place), moment (bending), etc.
Ductility the ability of an item to take on a new shape. Although it's different from tensile (tension) strength, ductility is a not a 'strength', it's a measure of maleability.
The above's off the top of my head (civil engineering undergrad 7yrs ago that I never did anything with), but the following seems to explain some of the concepts:Oh -- and don't forget that strength is typically a function of temperature. [steel's biggest enemy is fire, even though it doesn't burn.... it just becomes really weak, really quickly]
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:3, Informative)
No such thing.
Ductile means that when you exceed the yeild strenght of the material, the material flows plastically to give significant displacement before it fractures. Think clay or silly putty.
Brittle means that when you exceed the yeild strenght, there is very little or no plastic deformantion before failure. Think ice.
Glass and mild steel both have similar yield strengths. Glass failure is brittle, while the steel is ductile.
Yield and Ultimate strength of a material and ductility/brittlness are completely unrelated and independent of each other.
$3000 for Lights? (Score:1, Informative)
I don't know where they got this, but I totally disagree.
Take a look at
http://www.coolbulbs.com/
http://www.brighthea
The bulbs themselves cost anywhere from $30 to $100 a set. It may cost a few *hundred* dollars to replace the ballast, and a few wires, etc., but *thousands* to replace the lights? I'm skeptical.
Don't believe the hype! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Support your classic car restorer (Score:4, Informative)
All this "backyard mechanics can't fix today's cars" talk is just nonsense. Modern parts are lightweight and precision manufactured. There's no banging or clanging to get parts off, no rusted bolts, no tweaking of the carburetor and timing. There's no cables to break, and very little danger of an improperly timed engine pinging itself into oblivion.
Cases in point: the Passat stopped firing on one cylinder. There were three things that could have caused this: a broken plug wire (it was fine), a broken plug (brand new and tested fine) or a problem with the ignition control module. Testing the ICM showed cylinder three was receiving no signal. $100 later, I had a new module which installed in about five minutes.
When I had a similar problem with the Beetle, I had the same three possible sources (plug, wire or ignition control). However, the ignition control system, being mechanical, was far more difficult to troubleshoot. I ended up replacing pretty much everything...the distributor, the condensor, the solenoid...and even then, I spent the better half of an afternoon tweaking it.
Of course, working on the Beetle is more FUN, because the endless possibilities of a custom and delicate relationships between components make it more satisfying.
Re:IT by day, backyard mechanic at night (Score:3, Informative)
As for things like airbags, that definitely requires dealer or competent mechanic replacement. I've been fortunate so far to not have to deal with that yet (knocking on wood - curses, a metal desk).
I actually have two newer cars right now (a 2002 and a 2004) that are both Nissan's. One was a replacement for a 1993 Ford Aerostar, the other was a second vehicle. I've also had a 1997 Suzuki Esteem (which I wouldn't recommend to anyone, maybe a bad one off the line, but parts were difficult to find and pretty expensive/dealer only in most cases) and a 1985 Nissan Sentra. Out of all the vehicles, only the Aerostar had a tight engine compartment. When I look at vehicles now, even new ones, I naturally look at the space I have to work with. I've helped work on a fair number of vehicles (mostly economy class vehicles) and Honda's seem pretty tight in the engine compartment (fortunately they seem pretty reliable, but doing a roadside water pump replacement isn't much fun at night).
I guess from my experience, look at how difficult a common repair will be with your vehicle if your going to do it yourself, or ask a mechanic for some time estimates on common repairs. Mechanics have the resources to provide labor hours for just about any repair plus they'll have insight into which cars they see in the shop too often.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Informative)
When a car leaves the dealership with HID lights, it is aimed and filtered properly so it does not blind other drivers. When a car leaves the dealership and then decides to retrofit HID lights into headlight housings meant for halogen lights, then you have problems. IIRC, the housing internals has to be modified for HID lights.
-dk
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:3, Informative)
People fit the housings in cars that don't have auto levelling features, so they end up too high when you put people in the back. Or they put the HID bulbs in normal housings, which don't have the correct reflector shape and cut-off, and blind people.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Informative)
The big problem is bumpers (Score:5, Informative)
Then came "integrated bumpers" and "bumperless cars". Those things can be totalled at very low speeds. Damages in minor collisions soared.
Here's the Institute for Highway Safety [hwysafety.org] on the "$3000 light replacement" issue. They write: "The Institute's continuing series of 5 mph bumper tests show that today's flimsy bumpers can result in substantial and expensive damage to vehicle lighting systems. For example, in March of this year the Institute released results of front-into-angle-barrier tests of several new models. In the tests, the housings for the headlights on both the Acura RL and Infiniti Q45 broke and had to be replaced. Largely because of the cost of the headlamp assembly, the damage to the Q45 in the angle-barrier impact totaled $2,661." That's probably the source of the "$3000" figure.
The lack of a tough bumper standard coupled with the crashworthyness requirement means that the car's crumple zones crumple in minor collisions. Hence the big repair bills.
Re:Actually.... (Score:1, Informative)
I'll take the wildly unpopular (and undiscussed) position that that is not the case.
The poor, hopeless people in Palestine, for instance, are not killing people because they don't look or act like themselves. They are pissed off about certain policies vis-a-vis someone is sitting on what used to be their land.
The Al Queda killers did not hate us because they hated our freedom, or our religion. They had a specific grievance primarily, which was the U.S. presence in their Holy Land (which we have totally abandoned for new bases in Iraq). They don't have a problem with us as long as we don't bother their culture; it's not about us being white or christian. It's about their assertion that we should not bother their culture. Not that they're right; it's just that they aren't doing it because we're different.
I can't think of anyone in the world who's a "terrorist" because they hate Americans. Being poor doesn't make you insane. It always starts out with a grievance that makes sense to them; Lebanon,the West Bank, Fallujah, desecration. Then it starts snowballing because of the tit-for-tat and stubborn misunderstanding by BOTH the Americans and the Others. Add in required vengeance for killing, and we have a he-killed-him-so-I-must-kill-you idiot's war.
On the other hand, I live around Chicago's burbs. And I DO hear the young men talking about killing "Afghans", "Iraqi's" and "ragheads", because they "bombed the World Trade Center". They really do think that Islam is now a religion to be despised and crushed. They're immensely confused as to who is who. But they really want to go and kill themselves some "terrorists". And anyone who is moslem or wears a turban is commonly called a "terrorist" on the playground, the gym or even at the dinner table.
An unpopular point, I know. We may be far more guilty of confusing just who the "enemy" is than all those poor, deluded people in the world. Maybe they aren't that deluded? Sigh.
Re:This is too true (Score:3, Informative)
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:3, Informative)
Not it's not a bunhc of horse shit (Score:3, Informative)
The reality is that cars are becoming harder to work on.
The problem is all to do with the computers.
Manufacturers are deliberately making it harder and hard to get diagnostic information from your car.
Let's contrast my old '87 Buick LeSabre, vs. my GF's 98 Toyota Tercel:
-On the Buick, if I want to read the trouble codes, I need a paperclip. That's it. That will let me access ALL the trouble codes. Clearing them is as simple as disconnecting the battery/removing a fuse.
-On the Tercel, I can't get the trouble codes until I buy a $150 code reader. Even then this code reader only gives me a faction of the functionality that it should. OBDII was designed for gov't emissions testing. In order to clear trouble codes you MUST have a reader, and your car will not pass inspection if it has uncleared codes.
Basically, here's my rant about OBDII:
Here's an example:
My GF's MIL comes on. We call around and find out that any shop is going to want $70 just to look at it. So I'm pretty much forced to buy a reader.
The trouble codes indicate a misfire. I replace a $5 set of spark plugs, problem fixed.
A problem that would have cost me $5 to fix on the Buick, cost me $155 on a newer car.
Now look, I'm willing to shell out $150 for a reader, but I want it do be able to do more than I can do on an older car with just a paper clip.
The way it's set up right now, $150 gets you your trouble codes, but if you want any of the things that you SHOULD be able to get with a computer interface (like TPS sensor status) you need to buy ANOTHER special purpose computer (if you lucky and it's even avaible for you model) or spend the value of the car itself on a computer.
The solution to all this BS is pretty simple:
No dealer-only diagnostics
Any non-engineering computer interfaces must meet a federal standard, and any deviations from this standard must be disclosed.
Right now I could build a car and cryptographically block you from doing anything but basic ODBII functions. If you want to do something as simple as bleed your brakes you MUST pay a dealer or you will not be able to properly bleed the ABS unit. Then it's both a market manipulation issue and a safety issue.
Re:Its Too Easy To Fry! (Score:2, Informative)
Stupid Ford Indeed,,,
The Focus's Firewall is Plastic in many spots!, Right behind the drivers legs at one place,,, just hope that flywheel dosent explode!
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:1, Informative)
These are all fully programmable, which of course means you or someone else has to program them before they will work, which isnt particularly an easy task, and most of them wont control things like VTEC/VVTI, but They are an option none the less. And most of them will also require wire harness adaptation (they wont just plug right in) Not an easy solution, but again it all depends on how bad you want to keep your car.
WolfEMS [wolfems.com.au] http://www.wolfems.com.au/home
Haltech [haltech.com] http://www.haltech.com/
AEM [aempower.com] http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp
Electromotive [electromotive-inc.com] http://www.electromotive-inc.com/
SimpleDigitalSystems [sdsefi.com]http://www.sdsefi.com/
CA Smog law stuff [ca.gov] Basically if its aftermarket it has to be approved, and none of these are, there are a bunch of approved ECU reburns but no full on programmale systems.
Re:Why blame technology? (Score:2, Informative)
The simple fact that there are engineers who worked on such a project is a good indication that engineering profession needs a serious kick in the ass.
Its not necessarily the engineers faults. A friend of the family developed something for the automobile industry in the 70's and they asked him (insisted) to make it less reliable, so they could make more selling replacements. On those same lines, I wonder how quickly these cars will need to be disposed of.
Re:Yay! Disposable cars! (Score:4, Informative)
You want your headlights. You pick em up cheap from a big pile of headlights. You win.
The companies interested in cheap raw materials buy everything else that is of no use to Joe Sixpack. They win
The scrap yard owner gets both your money and money from the company looking for cheap bulk scrap. He wins
Less junk piles up that people off the street don't want. Mother nature wins.
Re:Yay! Disposable cars! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Yay! Disposable cars! (Score:5, Informative)
Like the poster said, cars are worth a lot in parts. Thats why you see Push Pull Drag in deals where they will give you 1000 bucks for a POS, it's worth it to them.
These places keap prices for repair down. If you need a big part for your car like an engine or tranny this is where it comes from, or a fender or hood. When a body shop or garage goes fixing your car they will always use these parts first unless they can't find them. Insurance company price out for these parts. You wouldn't want to pay for OEM fenders or a brand new engine. Even if they say they are new it is very unlikely they are new.
The reality of it is, if you bought a brand new car, or maybe a year old model cheap, then took it to a salvage yard, they could probably turn around and turn a profit on parting it out.
The giant car eaters are good for stuff that is crap. But those programs also raise the cost of used parts for your car. They are mainly pushed because the car companies get emmissions credits for getting old clunkers destroyed. Not a bad thing, just has it's serious draw backs. Since if your a car collector it will be come very hard to find that car you always wanted or parts for it.
It should be noted that in some places in Europe now car companies have to set up a EOL plan for the car that includes it's disposal, thats why those scredders are coming into play.
Re:Actually.... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How much energy does recycling a car take? (Score:5, Informative)
Anybody with *any* experience with Chrysler products, or Honda Civics, would moderate this as a troll, or perhaps humorous. There's a reason that Consumer Reports (among others) gives top ratings to Honda, and low-end ratings to anything Dodge. And I can assure you that Honda Civics last a *lot* longer than 7 years, and you don't even have to change the oil every 2,500 miles. Perhaps in the late 70's what you're saying is true, but now Civics are the most reliable cars on the road.
The idea of being a car snob over a Dodge is absurd. I owned one before, and I wouldn't wish one upon my worst enemy.
Re:my 84 vw rabbit... (Score:2, Informative)
Ever hear of something called power to weight ratio?
You don't need giagantic tires and 300HP, when your car isn't a bloated, heavy pig (like the new GTO for example).
I've seen a VW Rabbit tear it up at the autocross, and it was really cool to watch this old guy in his beat-up rabbit hang with WRX's and Evo's. Sure, they would have ate him up in a straight line, but it was like watching Bruce Lee beat up Mike Tyson.
Re:This is too true (Score:2, Informative)
Philip Greenspun saw this coming (Score:3, Informative)
Philip Greenspun wrote a fascinating analysis of this [harvard.edu] a few months ago. To quote part of it:
If his analysis is correct -- and it certainly seems plausible -- then the predictions he goes on to make from there are wide-ranging and dramatic. What happens if the 5% of the American workforce that makes, sells, and finances cars is suddenly out of a job? What other manufacturing field could pick up that much slack? Can the economy change course in time to maintain America's wealth, or could this drastically accelerate the loss of blue (and now white) collar jobs that we've been seeing since the 1970s?
Maybe we should all just go apply at Wal-Mart now. At least then in 10 years we'll have a shot at being a minimum wage shlobs with seniority.
Re:Why blame technology? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:How much energy does recycling a car take? (Score:5, Informative)
Wow, biased much? No offense but I (and a ton of other people) would prefer to own some fine Japanese tinfoil, any day. Americans have produced some decent cars, but overall... suckage. IMHO of course.
Honda CR-V. 5 years old, 45k miles, good as new, seriously very close to mint condition. Check the resale value if you like.
Also, I wouldn't wax your car every week unless you're talking about automatic carwash wax. Waste of time, waste of wax.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:3, Informative)
Then why is it that every single blue-tinted headlight that I pass on the road blinds me? I don't think there are too many ricer fools that drive SUVs or other yuppie vehicles.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:1, Informative)
But, you will be surprised to learn that even halogen projector head-lights (like on recent Kia models) have this same blue sparkle effect with no xenon or other high-intensity discharge light source being present.
On the other hand, projector light systems are extremely good at providing both more efficient and more direct use of the light source. A projector is able to provide a very well defined cut-off such that if your eyes are above the cut-off you will see less than 1/1000th of the light below the cut-off, far better than traditional reflector-based headlights (HID or not).
What does this all mean to you? Who knows, but you are clearly complaining in ignorance, not unlike many others with similar attitudes regarding this subject. The least you can do is to educate yourself on the topic here's a couple of good places to start: www.candlepowerforums.com and www.hidforum.com.com -- good luck.
Re:How much energy does recycling a car take? (Score:3, Informative)
You cleary know nothing about cars.
The car he was talking about had a slant-6 engine in it. Those are one of the most reliable engines EVER MADE. Try looking something up instead of talking out your ass.
Perhaps in the late 70's what you're saying is true, but now Civics are the most reliable cars on the road.
Hondas are over-rated. I'd take a GM 3800 V-6 (good for 300,000+ miles) over a Honda engine any day.
The idea of being a car snob over a Dodge is absurd. I owned one before, and I wouldn't wish one upon my worst enemy.
Well it certainly wasn't a Viper then. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the specfic model of car you purchase matters and THAT's why they cost different prices?
If you buy a cheap POS from ANY company you're getting a cheap POS. I've worked on old Civics, they're nothing impressive, especially when they leave your gf stuck on the other side of the country.
It always amazes me that people think their car will never break because it has an "H" on the hood. The trick to getting a good car is to research that specfic model and that specfic car. You couldn't give me a Dodge Neon, but I'd take a Buick LeSabre over a Honda Accord.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:3, Informative)
And a lot of the parts are transplantable, like the console is. (Wheels aren't; the Passat has a different lug pattern than the Golf/Jetta/New Beetle.) The Passat has the same 1.8T engine that the Golf, Jetta, and New Beetle do. The Eurovan has the Jetta/Golf GTI VR6. Etc.
Some of the "problem" is engineering philosophies and some of it is foreign currency exchange rates. And VWs are one of the easiest foreign makes to get aftermarket parts for, Honda being the other. There's probably just as much aftermarket VW/Honda stuff available as there is from Mopar and other suppliers of go-fast parts for American cars.
Re:More fundamental than that. (Score:2, Informative)
John Z. DeLorean (Score:3, Informative)
It might not be easier, but wouldn't it be a significantly better investment to build cars meant to last as long as possible rather than cars meant to be thrown away?