Technology Makes New Cars Too Expensive to Fix 1246
securitas writes "The CSM's Eric Evarts reports on how technology makes new cars too expensive to repair, which may lead to disposable cars. The increased use of expensive electronics, air bags and advanced, lightweight body materials are causing costs to rise. Add to it the cost of specialized training and equipment (for an aluminum-body repair shop: $200,000) or even the cost of new parts alone (xenon high-intensity-discharge headlights: $3,000 each), not to mention the knowledge base required (over 1 million pages, available only electronically vs. 100 pages 20 years ago) and a labor shortage. From the article: 'Specialist technicians need advanced reading, problem-solving, and basic electronics skills.... The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry.'"
Support your classic car restorer (Score:5, Interesting)
Another bonus: a back-yard mechanic can work on it...
Recycling (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone heard anything about this?
and you're just realizing this now? (Score:5, Interesting)
me neither, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
ed
this is caca de toro... (Score:4, Interesting)
b) While the cars become more complex, the tools to fix them become better. Nowadays a mechanic plugs a laptop into your car and the car tells him/her "the fuel pump is 10% off, should I readjust?". 15 years ago mechanics would do something closely resembling forensics to figure out which wire was fried. This is done today in seconds.
Clearly some complex parts are hard to repair, but instead of dumping them, export them to third world countries where they will be miracolously repaired....
/me hugs (Score:5, Interesting)
Ok... this one has got issues (Score:4, Interesting)
Um...Am I the only one who thinks there are probably numerous reasons why this is a bad idea/statement? Disposable Car? People in other countires must love our frame of mind. If a brand new BMW (as in story) costs more to replace the air bags than the car, than somebody please, sell me a BMW sans airbags. I'll throw in a five point harness, reinforce the subframe, and sign a waiver. I think I have a rain check for a mid-life crisis around here somewhere....
No... really... disposable car = huh? Recycled car / rethink industry as a whole = hah!
besides, does anyone here in the IT industry really want to figure out why the 2010 Ford Festiva is having a hard time finding drivers (pun?) for it's various parts?...
The parts industry (Score:3, Interesting)
I doubt that the parts themselves are too expensive to replace that makes some repairs seem unfeasible (after all, the automakers get parts so cheap in bulk), but rather it has been realized that they cannot add that extra 1000% markup on a per part basis, so why not make the consumer buy a whole new car? (where the markup is still 200-500% from cost)
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:1, Interesting)
I completely disagree (Score:4, Interesting)
Auto manufacturers can go a LONG way to lower the cost of cars and car repair by creating a variety of standardized systems. While it's true that to some extent that style and creativity would be hampered by the inclusion of modular standards for automobiles, the cost issue can be quickly and effectively addressed.
Consider the various levels of standardization that we already enjoy. There are standardized tool sizes. There are standardized bays for electronics in the dash such as radios, CD and even DVD players. The incredibly thin margins on the still surviving PC components market proves out that making automobile components even more standard and modularized could easily address the concern over the rising cost of automotive repair.
In many ways, if the concept were more widely addressed, a great number of matters could be addressed such as handling recalls of various components and even upgrades.
This could open the door to smaller manufacturers to get into the third party parts business... which is exactly why the idea will probably never be realized.
part of the problem.. (Score:5, Interesting)
God forbid you want a car that doesn't have all the crap or *GASP* not an automatic transmission (I'll take the lower gas milage and increased service problems for $800 alex!").
Anway, when we could only find ONE manual, base moodel subaru Forester in the entire STATE and we didn't like that color, we bought a used one at an auction threw a friend for $7k less, 2 years old 28K miles (this is why I don't buy new!).
Reliability versus feature creep (Score:3, Interesting)
What really gets me going is that I took it to VW to get the ECm re-flashed because emissions is coming up for me. Told em to do warranty repair/recall work only. They did it, but they "checked the car" because it's been a while since it's been to the VW dealerships. They found that the coolant and brake line fluid's PH balance was off (I can't even make this up!) They were more than happy to perform the fluid flush ($220).
HEY! While you're at it check my headlight fluid and don't skimp on the halogen fluid!
Goddamn I hate these new cars.
-B
The problem is dealer part prices (Score:3, Interesting)
Most of these cars get "written off", bought by salvage specialists, and then rebuilt using parts from other wrecked cars (which are also "too expensive" to repair). It makes perfect economic sense to do so. But the way the laws and insurance companies work, it's almost impossible for the original owner to do this. It pretty much has to be done through a salvage title.
The rise in parts prices isn't limited to brand new cars... I've seen some normal maintenance items (belts, filters, etc.) on my 1992 car rise by a factor of three in the past few years (and yes, the new models use those same parts!)
new cars are also lower maintenance (Score:4, Interesting)
This trend is also driving mechanics out of business. It used to be that a car would generate serious $$$ in terms of annual scheduled maintenance.
So consider the plight of independent mechanics - not only does it now require the equivalent of a college degree's education to understand most cars, but it's also less rewarding because there are fewer opportunities for maintenance.
This is a double-hit.
--Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu
Lateral Thinking (Score:3, Interesting)
Next step is why let the car sit in the home garage at all? Instead of buying the car just subscribe to a taxi service -- a fleet of robotic cars runs around picking up riders continuously.
The fact that cars in general are getting too expensive to maintain could give an encentive for this pattern. I think in 30 years very few people will actually own their own cars. My house will be have a lot more space when I don't need a garage!
Re:Oxymoron? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Keep it in the family (Score:2, Interesting)
This is a real concern for those who maintain classics.
Re:So, what they are saying is (Score:2, Interesting)
Ok, now I'm more depressed...
True, but with a boss that likes to point out 'You should be glad you have a job at all...' on a regular basis, the mechanics job is starting to look good.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
The downside of course is that it is an older car and has none of the safety gear that modern cars have. I once lost a wheel racing (and winning) a 930 turbo (when I was younger and more impetuous) as there were no safety devices that would retain it when the axle broke. You can imagine the fear that sets in at 110MPH or so when you suddenly find yourself running along with a presumably four wheel car that now happens to have only three.
As an aside, you might be surprised at how much an "automotive technician" who knows their stuff can make. The folks down at the Mercedes Benz dealer can truly clean up with six figure salaries. And judging from the last routine service bill on my mom's S-class, there may be more than one tech making that kind of salary there.
Re:Yay! Disposable cars! (Score:5, Interesting)
The typical 'movie bad guy hideout' junk yards will be a thing of the past in a short period. Cars won't be sitting around piled up ten to the dozen or in landfills, they're going to be snapped up by entities who want the materials.
It's also a sort of part payback to mother nature for some of the other bad shit we've been doing.
What with China et al manufacturing all the washing machines and stuff, and with prices rising (from forty pounds per ton to over a hundred, if i have been informed correctly) the demand will increase dramatically. Hell, a lot of manhole covers are disappearing around the country in what seems to be an attempt to cash in on the metal madness.
As far as the 'disposable car' goes, it all seems a bit of a gimmick, as current normal cars aren't exactly on the same level as toxic waste.
This is extremely bad for consumers (Score:3, Interesting)
This is only going to become more of a problem as more hybrids are released. Your average mechanic is what he is because he grew up working on cars with his dad/friends etc.. It's very much a lifestyle worn as a badge of honor by the blue collar salt of the earth crowd. They no more want to use a computer than many of us want to get our hands dirty under the hood of our cars.
The only saving grace here is that repairs seem to be less frequent on newer automobiles. I have less than 30k miles on my 2000 Ford F250 and have yet to need any under the hood work.
Re:my 84 vw rabbit... (Score:3, Interesting)
Oil will become too expensive for use in automobiles. Now, companies like GM have faked [gmev.com] electric vehicle efforts only to revert back to good ole oil. Because of the Big Company reluctance to supply EVs en masse, clever companies will eventually step in and supply bolt-in EV retrofit kits [uqm.com] and you'll be able to plug in that 84 Rabbit instead of gassing it up.
Eventually, the BigMotorCos will have to supply EVs. The EV1 was great in the respect that it required very little maintenance (no oil changes, air filters, spark plugs, head gaskets, transmission, etc). But how can GM make money when owners can rebuild the drivetrain so easily?
Re:From sys admin... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:3k for an HID light?? (Score:4, Interesting)
The problem with a lot of the expensive components is they have to be installed by the dealer, or somebody with the diagnostic tools to properly get something working. When the headline blew on my passat, I tried replacing the bulb. It didn't work, and the fuses were all good. So then I took it in to the dealer, who charged me for replacing the headlight. Thing is, he did something with his computer to get the passat to "accept" the new headlight
And it gets worse. I found I could buy tires for wholesale + shipping at some site online. So I bought them, but having them mounted on my rims and on the car cost an arm and a leg. Why? Because the "free mounting and balancing" at Firestone dealerships is only for tires you buy there, and it came to an arm and a leg -- more than I saved on the tires.
Re:Don't change jobs yet......... (Score:5, Interesting)
The trick is to avoid industries that are easily shipped offshore. This morning's paper had an article about drug testing going overseas because it's cheaper. At an Apple's developer's conference years ago, I saw a presentation by a radiologist that involved shipping x-rays over an ISDN line. That technology has made it possible to ship the radiologist's job overseas as well.
It's tough to squeeze a mechanic or a plumber through a data pipe, no matter how fat the pipe.
Re:So, what they are saying is (Score:4, Interesting)
now are you SURE you wanna be an auto mechanic???
if so, contact me and I'll trade my job for your job faster than you can download a 1K webpage on OC1 fiber.
Re:Support your classic car restorer (Score:5, Interesting)
Intuitively, that makes a bit of sense. All these modern composites and exotic metals can't be clean to work with. Though I suppose it'd be easier for a factory to contain the pollutants.
Would be neat to see a study on it. I wonder what the current situation would look like if manufacturing was included in the pollution scale, and compared against recycling old vehicles.
Re:3k for an HID light?? (Score:2, Interesting)
If anything here is inaccurate, I am just going by memory - but you get the gist....it's the high end import cars with expensive OEM parts.
Re:Recycling (Score:4, Interesting)
-B
Re:my 84 vw rabbit... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
If I were on his jury, I'd acquit anyone arrested for stealing those goddamn headlights (what kind of safety feature is it to blind oncoming traffic?).
Your point still stands but it is interesting to point out that Xenon HID lamps are not that irritating to oncoming traffice if they are properly filtered and aimed.
Its these shit ass ricers and idiot suburban wannabees that but the cheap ass aftermarket crap that aren't aimed right and are nearly unfiltered throwing an awful lot of crap in the shorter wavelengths.
Daytime Running Lights (Score:3, Interesting)
Compared to my first car (Score:2, Interesting)
Markups and DMCA real problem (Score:1, Interesting)
The markup on OEM parts is also ridiculous, a $15 hubcap will cost $55 OEM.. and that trend follows custom parts only available from the dealer.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
Apparently the diagnostic kit for this car alone costs 7000! Apparently the main reason for this is not to create disposable cars (although that's something I'm sure they'd love!) but to prevent unofficial garages from being able to perform repairs, thereby essentially restricting the the owner of the car to an official garage for the lifetime of the car.
Another off-topic thing of interest they mentioned was that the diagnostics of the car are accessed wirelessly and that these diagnostics can operate pretty much any feature in the car! I give it about a week before an exploit to unlock the car and start the engine is released...
buy smart then (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Support your classic car restorer (Score:2, Interesting)
Tony.
Re:Its Too Easy To Fry! (Score:3, Interesting)
These things are highly desireable in the US partly because they are not available, a friend bought a rolling SMART chassis (no drivetrain) off eBay from the now-defunct eMotion. He has since purchased all the other bits (engine, drivetrain, etc) and is now trying to put it together but he's stumped because he cannot get the SEVEN computers to talk to each other. He is no stranger to working on cars either. And once he screws it up, he can't exactly take it in to a "dealer" either since both he AND the car are in the US.
As a former tech... (Score:5, Interesting)
The only area in which cars have not become lower maintenance is oil changes. You still need to change the oil every 3,000 miles. But aside from that, most cars today require very little maintenance compared to their simpler predecessors.
Yes, cars are more complicated, but for the first time in history, machines with moving parts are more reliable than those without. The average PC is less reliable than the average car, and given a choice, I think most people would rather have a reliable vehicle than a simple one requiring more maintenance.
Re:Don't change jobs yet......... (Score:4, Interesting)
Instead, we're just giving them cheaper access to people with the same degree of training, and magnifying our trade deficit in the process.
Its partially intentional (Score:3, Interesting)
2 - it makes customers more likely to just buy a new car, rather than spend 10 grand on repairs as the car gets out of warranty.
Scary part is that people who want options are going to be out of luck soon. Between people not supporting parts for 'real' cars, and government mandates for features such as black boxes...
I'd do it (Score:3, Interesting)
Man I'd go back to that industry in a heart beat if they'd pay me anywhere near as well as I get paid for software dev... All this sitting in a sunless little dungeon room staring at a CRT all day is for the birds.
Re:Yeah! Car manufacturers pulling an Epson? (Score:4, Interesting)
Think "Subscription Cars" (Score:5, Interesting)
How do we know that the next step in this consumer financial treadmill isn't "subscription cars"? When it breaks beyond a certain level, you go to the dealership, turn in your car and get into a newly refurbished one. No hassle for the dealer to figure out complicated parts or systems, just basic fluid level maintenence.
Auto mechanics become few and far between; the use/broken/damaged cars are shipped by train/ship to $third_world where they're parted out and reassembled to be returned to dealers. The truly bad parts are either scrapped for base metals or, if modular, further disassembled for their own reassembly.
At this point, we don't have mechanics with any more skill than the droolers at Rapid-Oil and the high value technician jobs really have been essentially outsourced to a third world country. For the US, Mexico would make more sense than India due to simple geography and the size/weight of a car; but it's not improbable that labor rates in India/China/Philipines would be low enough that transhipping cars overseas would make sense.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
My '00 Honda Civic Ex is the best of both worlds. It's got a computer and fuel injection, but also still has a distributor - making timing changes easy. The engine is laid out intelligently (changing plugs and wires took me 5 minutes), and very well documented. Sure, it's crammed in the bay, but it's so well thought out that it doesn't matter so much. Also, it's one of the few reasonably priced well-equipped cars that you can still get with a manual transmission - seems (especially with domestics) you can usually only get the manual on the base model. Often on imports, its the other way around. Oh, and I'm pushing 92000 miles (bought it at 7000), and I've only had it in the shop to get the left power window lubricated. Clutch slips a *tiny* bit when launching from 2nd (which I shouldn't do anyway), but that's a wear/replace part. Otherwise still runs like the day I bought it.
What I can't believe is that people apparently consider many domestics to be "modern technology" at all, considering that GM is using essentially the same 3.8L pushrod V6 that they were using in the 70's. In fact, I think even the new 'Vettes have a fuel injected variation of the 35+ year old pushrod 350.
Re:Keep it in the family (Score:3, Interesting)
It also allows them to end-of-life cars sooner, without the built-in-obsolecence they tried in the 70's (which nearly destroyed the US automobile industry).
We recently had to get rid of a not-very-new Ford Aerostar because of this issue. Ford stopped making them, and don't have a decent replacement. But the van started hesitating and idling rough, sometimes cutting out at stoplights. Our regular mechanic could not get enough information from his diagnostic machine (apparently the problem was in one of the computer modules), and suggested we try the dealer. Probably will be expensive, we thought, but OK.
What did the dealer do? Refused to work on it because "it's too old"!!!!
At that point, our options were to junk it, or start replacing (rather expensive) control modules until it works (hopefully). And if any of those modules require adjustment on-board, there won't be any way to fix it at all.
So, this is double-bonus for the manufacturers. The dealers corner the market on repairs (how long before the prices double and triple?), and when they decide you've had the car long enough, you're forced to buy a new one.
I can just see the blue book listings for these cars now:
2015 Retail Value - Ford Cobina
Complex cars == Good economics (Score:3, Interesting)
It seems to me that as the requirements to fix the cars increase, so might the pay, providing better jobs for more people.
Could just be my take, but I am a civil egalitarian, so I am willing to put with extra complexity and cost to put decent person to work at a decent wage.
This is a bunch of horse shit (Score:4, Interesting)
I am a novice mechanic who has owned and worked on (to some degree) 12 cars. Some of them I ran into the ground, some of them I sold, some of them I ran into other cars. So that was my introduction to learning how to work on cars - buying beaters. About the most complicated thing I've done so far was a head swap on a SOHC toyota motor, or at least I participated in it :P Actually, doing the oil pan on my 240SX without removing the motor was kind of an odyssey all on its own, involving dropping the cross member...
Now, I'm in air conditioning class, have taken an auto body class and an auto paint class, and have been doing that kind of stuff for some time, and as well I have a car that I work on somewhat regularly and my girlfriend has another which I'm going to pull the transmission from soon as I get a sunny weekend. Then, I'm going to be getting a 1962 chevy pickup which is going to need a ton of work. So I know a little something about working on older cars.
The first big thing to make it hard to work on modern cars was the ECU. Code readers came out as a result. It's true that you can't get the really cool codes out of the computer without knowing all the manufacturer-specific information, like the position of mode doors, the values of sensors, and so on. However, the documentation still tells you how to go about testing all that stuff with nothing more complicated than a DVOM. Any shop without a DVOM is no shop at all, so that's no big deal.
Finally let us discuss the price of intensely expensive individual parts. This is a scam by the dealership to make money. However any car with $3,000 headlights (for example - The headlights on a 1991 Acura NSX are $500 each just for the reflectors is pretty much meant to be dealer-serviced-only. Basically all top end cars are meant to be serviced only by the dealer, but no automaker I'm aware of makes cars which are unfeasible to service in any old shop.
With that said, the repair garage is on its way out. Oh sure it'll be many decades before it happens but progress is relentless. Eventually everyone will want to trade in their internal combustion monsters (except for those people doing motorsports, did you know you can run methanol in ordinary engines with minimal conversion? it's high octane, too) for fuel cell, battery-powered, flywheel-powered, or other alternative-energy source vehicles because they will be both cheaper (to operate) and more reliable. As the part count drops the vehicles become easier to repair; Eventually the dealers will end up designing the parts to be easy to replace, and just charging ridiculous amounts of money for them, and anyone who can assemble a children's toy (of course, this isn't everyone) will be able to make any kind of repairs to a car.
Oh yeah, one last note on the computerization of cars ostensibly making it harder to troubleshoot problems with your car: Some of the cars with a screen in the dash have a diagnostic mode you can put them in (outlined in the car's manual) and you can actually use that screen for a code reader. In other words, you get the full benefit of having the code reader, without even having one. This is possible because all the little computers in the car talk to one another on the newer systems. You can see which switches, doors, etc are activated without even plugging anything in.
You have only yourself to blame if you get some high-falutin' car with the little radar parking system and everything, and then expect it to be easy to work on, and repairs to be inexpensive. It simply doesn't work that way.
Don't get your hopes up (Score:5, Interesting)
WRT to the expensive parts, you didn't actaully think all those safety features would not cost more than the old stuff? That's why an "economy" car costs what it does. It's litigation insulation that's not optional for the buyer.
One upside = job security. If you can read above a 3rd grade level, have some mechanical aptitude and a decent set of tools, you'll never be unemployed in the auto repair industry unless you just don't want to work. Everyone wants to hire a top diagnostic guy but they're never willing to compensate appropriately. If the worse should happen and I get layed off my IT job, it's comforting to know that I can bring 10 years of experience and college education to bear on the goal of earning $15-20/hour flat-rate.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
Disposable cars and UK insurance (Score:2, Interesting)
Call me cynical, but they get away with devaluing your car so much when they estimate its insurance value ("What? A dog pee'd on the hub-cap 6 years ago? that makes it worth another $1000 less. Next!"), that I guess it is cheaper for them to write off than repair.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
Then why is average fuel economy decreasing?
http://www.ase.org/policy/testimony/commercetest.
"The fuel economy of automotive fleets sold in this country peaked in 1988 at 28.5 miles per gallon. Now, cars going off the road and out of service are more efficient than the ones coming on. At a time when gas prices are high and looking to stay high, our fuel efficiency is moving in the wrong direction.
The last major push for an increase in CAFE standards came in 1991. The political might of the auto companies was sufficient to put down that effort, and the auto companies themselves became perhaps the chief proponent of the strategy of energy policy by wishful thinking. It worked well for them, because the policy of wishful thinking allowed the auto industry to increase the size and performance of the average vehicle, while decreasing fuel economy, all with the cooperation of the federal government. Now American consumers are faced with prices two times the amount they paid for a gallon of gasoline a year ago. And chances are great that they drove to the pump in a sport utility vehicle that falls well below the CAFE average."
Re:Support your classic car restorer (Score:3, Interesting)
Old cars are usually made of some heavy duty metal that will rust away for years. The bodies are filled with lead instead of plastic body fillers (Bondo). A patient owner who takes care of an old car and keeps it out of these yards is doing the environment a favor. Old car owners are also excelent recyclers! A lot of parts aren't made any more, and they are the ones hitting these junk yards, reusing these old parts. If a modern car was too complicated to keep on the road in the first place, how many people will be disasembling them for parts 10, 20, or 30 years down the line?
As for gas efficiency, my 1965 Volvo 1800S gets in the high 20's MPG, even in the city, with a pair of SU carbs. No computer to be found anywhere on that car. I could probably rejet the carbs to get in the low 30's, but I'm not sure of the powerband compromises that would cause.
Not true (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Don't change jobs yet......... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I'd do it (Score:3, Interesting)
Every job has it's minuses, for sure, but I REALLY miss the physical activity I used to get. I just don't miss the crappy pay check
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
I think you're also ignoring something else that American automakers do. They recycle parts amongst models. For example, I drive a GMC Jimmy and a Chevrolet Camaro. The Jimmy's parts are interchangeable with parts from the Blazer,Bravada, S10 and S15. My Camaro's parts are interchangeable with the Firebird and Trans Am.
Since they only have to make one part for multiple models of car, these parts cost less to make. Economics of scale and all. I think that has a LOT to do with foreign cars needing more expensive parts than their american counterparts in the same price range.
The more cars that use a specific part, the more generic offerings there are and the cheaper those offerings become. There's also more parts available from used auto parts catalogues.
This is exactly what is going on with current American made cars.
LK
IT Career Change (Score:1, Interesting)
"There's no shortage of general technicians, but there is a big shortage of qualified people to work on drivability and emissions issues," says Robert Rodriguez of Automotive Service Excellence. The Leesburg, Va., organization certifies repair shops and technicians.
These specialist technicians need advanced reading, problem-solving, and basic electronics skills, he says. "The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry," he says.
Re:my 84 vw rabbit... (Score:3, Interesting)
Still, leases aren't all bad. If you own your own business, you can lease a car as a business expense (up to something absurd like a $50,000 car) and it's a total tax write-off. That way you basically get a new car every three years and it doesn't cost you much at all. That way you don't have to worry about expensive maintenance; as anything really expensive (read: engine block, computers, drivetrain) will usually be covered under warranty. But the general idea here is that paying a little more for a lease is better than paying 33.5% to the IRS.
(just FYI; most of those "low, low monthly payments" are 5 year leases/loans, which are just stupid. You don't want to be still paying for the car after it breaks. 2 or 3 year leases/loans are where it's at)
Re:As a former tech... (Score:2, Interesting)
Let's get a few other things straight, too. There are two reasons that a car company can suggest a change interval of that length.
One, Schedule "A", which is pretty much no one and means you drive about 30+ miles every time you start the car, and it's all freeway with no stop and go. Stop-and-go and short-trips are not optimal, which is what schedule "A" is.
Two, some companies (usually upper-class vehicles like BMW) use synthetic oils, which last longer. In fact, some people will drive 10k-15k on synthetic oil because it takes that much longer to break down. But, you'd better have a big oil-filter on there if you're going to do that.
Have you ever changed your oil yourself and looked at it? 3k on dino oil really will turn the color pretty dark. That dark oil is contaminated and will not lubricate the engine as it should, leading to greater wear and earlier breakdown of the engine.
That same hype you talk about also says that new cars with plantinum spark plugs can go 100k miles without a tuneup. Hmm, I do mostly freeway driving with my car, it's a 2000, and it has 76k miles on it. I pulled out the plugs yesterday and they could've used a change a long time ago. And yes, my spark plugs had all kinds of "hard" and "complicated" technology on them, like the fact that there are no spark plug wires and the plugs aren't sticking out of the engine. Instead they're underneath those crazy things called "glow-packs" that are held in with torx screws, and the plug requires a 5/8" socket with about a 10" extension on it to take out. Whoa, that was too complicated. I can't believe I was able to adapt.
I guess the point is don't be so quick to bash the hype when you don't know what you're talking about. You shouldn't believe it whether it works in your favor or against. It's all hype, period. Make sure you get the facts about what was actually used in tests before you believe it (like the difference in oil-life for dino oil vs synthetic, and schedule "A" style driving vs schedule "B" style driving).
I can't believe I just ranted for that long. I'm done now, thanks for listening, don't miss another edition next week.
Do-it-yourself is dead (Score:1, Interesting)
THE FIRST TRUTH - disclosed
* Electronics = Complexity = Cost
When a simply networked 1996 compact had faulty wiring, senors and cpu, it was a total disaster. The car would quit running at 65MPH due to an erroronious stop code being sent to the cpu.
Thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of my time resulted in the car becoming more well-behaved, but it was never right. This included the manufacturers warranty and HQ Tech Support.
So when your GM Hy-Wire fuel cell powered, drive by wire car deleveops a short - - just throw it out and buy a new one.
THE SECOND TRUTH - secret!
Big auto-makers and big dealerships DO NOT WANT YOU TO FIX YOUR OWN CAR. They want the profits they make (more than they make from selling the cars) from fixing it for you.
Go to any autoparts store and get a price on say disc brake pads and rotors for your car. Then call a dealship and ask for the price on the same parts. If it isn't at least DOUBLE the price as the autoparts store, I'll eat my (red) hat, er fedora.
Also just try and find any anti-pollution related parts at the autoparts store. They are patented and not available outside of the dealership parts department. Try and find "non-traditional" parts such as the cpu, wire harness, sensors, certain body parts, etc. Only at the dealerships. For these parts the dealship can see you coming from 200 miles out, and the prices are set accordingly. Yeah bend over.
A changed over just occured (model year 2003 I think) to a new network sub-system and computer OS, which obsoletes every existing piece of diagnosic equipment in use for newer cars. The older models still use the old equipment. How long before these new dx tools are made only for dealerships? Are priced so high only the large shops can buy them? Are even available for purchase unless you qualify as a "Mr. Goodtool"?
So there are really two factors in play,
1) The cars are not really diagnosable, since the diagnosis relies on the the electronics, network and on-board computer. When the network and computer controls sub-systems fail, you're screwed blue.
2) Big auto is artifically driving (pun intended) up the costs of repair, and limiting what kinds or repairs and model year of car can be repaired, by using a kind of DCMA on parts and repair technology.
In my opinion the Second Truth has much, much more to do with the high cost of repair than the first truth. Artifical price control.
Don't forget... (Score:3, Interesting)
Couple it with the worse (yes, worse) pollution from modern cars fitted with catalytic converters, and from unleaded petrol (hmm, replace tetraethyl lead with two class-A carcinogens, clever) and it suddenly doesn't make sense to have everyone in new cars for "environmental reasons", does it?
Re:my 84 vw rabbit... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:As a former tech... (Score:3, Interesting)
Just because an oil is dark, does NOT mean that it has no life left in it. Just because an oil looks new, does NOT mean that it can lubricate worth crap! If you based oil changes solely on when the oil turned dark, you would be changing the oil more often than 3k, except on the cleanest of engines.
An oil that turns dark quickly is a sign of a good oil, that means that is is trapping and holding soot and other contaminants in suspesion. Where any large particles can then be filtered out of the oil by the oil filter.
You are right, short trips and stop and go driving are hard on an oil because the car will be running rich, and this leads to fuel running past the rings and mixing into the oil. Gasoline is a very poor lubricant. This is one area where modern engines have a definite advantage over older engines as fuel injection does a wonderful job of running the engine as lean as possible limiting the amount of fuel dilution.
Even if you're running synthetic oil, I would not be so quick to trust any manufacturer who claims you can run 10k-15k between oil changes, unless you fall into the light-duty driving category of all highway cruising and moderate speeds. I've seen too many used oil analysis results from those engines where the oil has thickened way out of grade and wear metals are significantly elevated.
The only real way to know how well your engine is holding up under your driving conditions is to perform an oil analysis, sending your used oil off to a lab to measure wear metals and other characteristics of the oil.
If you're curious to learn more about oil and how to maximumize the performance of it and minimize the time between oil changes, I suggest that you head over to the BITOG forums [bobistheoilguy.com] where you will find a LOT of information on oils and cars.
Another interesting site is the Synthetic Oil Life Study [spacebears.com] where they are testing various synthetic oils to see how well they hold up long term.
Why not? (Score:3, Interesting)
When I think a bit further about it, I'm thinking wouldn't it be neat to have a modular snap-together system of major assemblies that would fit in a chassis? That way you could buy whatever module you wanted and install it. You could have a Ford motor, A GM Tranny, an Allison rear end in a Honda body. When a module got to the point where it needed replacement you could shop for the features and price you wanted. Rebuilders could fix up old modules and sell them as replacements.
This concept is not without precident in the automotive industry. Checker did it for years and years, some big truck manufacturers do it to some extent today. Some buses have their motors and transmissions mounted on a pan that can be installed with a forklift, putting the bus with a blown engine or tranny back on the road in as little as forty five minutes.
It ain't gonna happen though. Manufacturers like things the way they are today.
I go to several large old car shows a year. I think I have hit on an idea that will put me in nice wheels at a reasonable cost. Several of these shows have areas set aside for cars that are for sale. Some of the really hot restored cars sell for tens of thousands of dollars but less hot fully restored cars are frequently inexpensive. You can get six cyl '67 Mustangs in fully-restored shape for five grand. This is a lot less than a new car and these cars are wonderful, unique, and would be up to the task of being a daily driver. I am seriously considering one of these machines insetad of a new car.
More fundamental than that. (Score:5, Interesting)
People putting obnoxious driving lights on their crappy wannaberacecars was just as bad with halogens and xenons as it now is with HIDs.
Re:How much energy does recycling a car take? (Score:2, Interesting)
I take it to the Honda dealer every couple of months and tell them I need an oil change and whatever else they find. Whatever they find I have them fix immediately. The car cost me $10,000 and I paid cash for it at the end of that model year. Except for dead batteries, which have always occurred at home on a day off from work, the car has never given me any trouble. It only has about 77,000 miles (I take public transportation a lot) on it and the Honda dealer is pleading with me to trade it in so they can get a well maintained used car. I am going to keep it until the wheels fall off.
I should have treated my last girlfriend as well as I baby that car.
Re:Yay! Disposable cars! (Score:2, Interesting)
I work long hours, and don't have time to spend money. If I had more free time, I would use the time on expensive (both in $ and natural resources) hobbies.
Cars (Score:1, Interesting)
This guy is DEAD ass on Take a look at the Semi industry, for YEARS you have been able to swap engines and drive components between a freightliner, Mack, Kenworth whatever. when they need a part they NEED IT NOW not a damn dealer runaround as you find in regular automotive.
Dodges are Macs (Score:1, Interesting)
The japanese make excellent cars also, late model japanese cars being better than late model american cars. However, anybody who doesn't know about the amazing chrysler slant six engine really has not lived the automotive existence. Google search chrysler slant six and learn about indestructability.
Re:I'm no mechanic, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, trucks are regulated by CAFE, it's just that they fall into a different segment and have a lower standard than cars.
CAFE has really become a complicated mess? Under CAFE, Chrysler can classify the PT Cruiser as a truck, because of the way the seats fold and create a flat cargo floor. The PT Cruiser convertible, OTOH, has to be classified as a car.
More info [caranddriver.com]
Actually it takes more energy to run a car... (Score:2, Interesting)
Yep, you read that correctly. The amount of fuel that powers the car is the primary energy expenditure. I didnt realize that until I looked at some of the literature.
Some numbers from a Life Cycle Inventory (USCAR AMP Project) noted Paper 982160 Society of Automotive Engineers, Inc.
Operational Phase: 84% of the energy
Material Production and Manufacturing: 14%
The rest would include mining and disposal.
Granted, one can argue about environmental impacts of the various activities, but the LCI does not deal with this.
This is based on a "life" of 120,000 years of a 1995 sedan (average of Intrepid/Lumina/Taurus). But your Volvo isn't going to be much different.
Oh, and cars running on catalytic converters with unleaded gas tend to have fewer emissions than those running on leaded fuel without cat. converters.
You are of course aware of the massive amounts of lead released into the environment by the use of leaded fuels? They are found in lake sediments anywhere powered boats where/are used. Lead released by motor vehicles also had a habit of accumulating in people who lived near roadways...causing lead poisoning
Re:How much energy does recycling a car take? (Score:3, Interesting)
A poser SUV? What the fuck do you call a Cadillac SUV then, or 99% of the other SUVs on the market?
Silly SUVs. But at least they tend to be real solid-axle 4x4 vehicles, built on pickup truck frames, with that stupid plush station wagon body dropped on top.
Don't even try to compare a CR-V or a Toyota Rectal Assault Vehicle with a real 4x4, even if it does have silly leather seats and carpets. A Lincoln Navigator could easily back over you in a parking lot, if his transfer case was set to 4WL.
At least if I took my CR-V offroad and broke it I could replace it without breaking the bank!Yup... But you'd be a lot less likely to break the Cadillac Escalade, Lincoln Navigaton, Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, Durango, Suburban, whatever.
Stand behind your CR-V and look at the rear axle sometime. Tell me, based on the width of the differential in there, exactly how much steel you think is in those gears? Oh, what's that, there aren't even gears in there? Well, I rest my case, then. And I'm quite secure in the knowledge that I could point my two wheel drive 1970 Dodge Dart down that little logging path, following the SUVs, and make it a hell of a lot further than your cute little 4WD or AWD setup.
(Please don't try to teach me about off-road driving. It really won't work. For one thing, I live in Ottawa, Canada - we get *lots* of snow. For another thing, I'm frequently in the bush, scavening automotive parts at ancient wrecking yards or going camping 25 miles down a dirt road from the next nearest human being.)
And WTF is "artificially high resale value"? Is that what someone with a car with crappy resale value says to refute the fact that their car ages like crap?No. That's what's used to describe the resale value of just about all trucks (real and poseurs like yours) at this current time. I just sold a 1993 Dodge Ram 4x4 with a 318 for $10,000. The thing is a former plow truck with 300,000km on it. That's artificially high resale value.
Anyways, IMHO in general an SUV is not an offroad vehicle. It's a yuppie-mobile.A real one is.
SUVs became popular only as the manufacturers were being forced to discontinue the full-size RWD station wagons like the Caprice Classic Wagon and LTD Estate.
But people still wanted them. So, noting that the CAFE rules didn't apply to pickup trucks, Detroit started dropping station wagon bodies onto pickup truck frames.
Need more evidence of this? Look up the sales numbers for the original SUVs - Jeep Wagoneer, Chevy Suburban, Dodge Ramcharger, Ford Bronco - before 1987-1988. They'd been around forever (Wagoneer and Suburban since the 1950s!), in fairly small quantities, sold mostly in rural areas. Urban yuppies had no interest in them until they couldn't get the car they really wanted!
The CR-V is an economical family car.You said it.
For us it's a solid, comfortable grocery getter with more cargo space than our 2 seater for long trips. That's it. All we want is something that drives, holds value well (relatively), is comfortable, reliable, and gets the job done.Wouldn't you have been better off with a lighter weight, lower aerodynamic profile station wagon? Oh, wait. Can't really make those anymore - thank your government and your environmentalists influencing technology from the depths of their arts degrees!
The Wrangler solves a different problem. I'm sure it's a way better off-road vehicle. But who cares? Look around, you idiot. 99.99% of the people who are buying SUVs today will NEVER take them offroad, unless you count that big gravel patch in the Safeway parking lot offroad.The Wrangler is a special case, appealing mostly to people looking for a particular image - and it's always been that way, since back when the first 1944-1946 Jeep M-38s (CJ = civilian version of M-38, YJ and TJ are descendents, all the CJ/YJ/TJ models have been called Wranglers at some point) were being surplused after World War II.
But I agree; most of these people would have been better off with station wagons or convertibles.
writing off the car is the whole point (Score:3, Interesting)
The major thrust of car safety design for the last 10-20 years has been that the car should be written off to protect the occupants. Therefore: airbags, crumple zones, seat-belt pre-tensioners and tension limiters, collapsing steering columns, staged failure of structural elements...
The BMW quoted in the article performed very well: the occupant was uninjured, the passenger cell was not breached. The damage looks minor specifically because the structural components are meant to be hardest and fail last. In that minute, the owner spent $30k to prevent their child from being killed or paralyzed. (Whether they still think that was a good deal is another question...)
If they'd been driving an older car, it might well have been repairable after a rollover: more steel, more parts that bend plastically rather than breaking or crumpling, no airbags. On the other hand, if they'd been driving an older car, they might have been dead.
It's pretty simple: if you don't want to write off your car, don't flip it over!
"A good landing is one you walk away from. A perfect landing is where they can use the plane again."
Re:How much energy does recycling a car take? (Score:2, Interesting)
You just answered your own question. But as it's already been pointed out, they're still better than a CR-V
At least if I took my CR-V offroad and broke it I could replace it without breaking the bank!
I thought you said it had a great resale value....
Anyways, IMHO in general an SUV is not an offroad vehicle. It's a yuppie-mobile. The CR-V is an economical family car.
No it's an SUV. Don't take my word for it, ask the DMV, your insurance company, or the federal gov't. Do you even know what CR-V stands for?
The Wrangler solves a different problem. I'm sure it's a way better off-road vehicle. But who cares?
One would think you would, judging by the type of vehicle you bought. It's absolutely retarded to buy a vehicle with a center of gravity that high if you're never going to take it off road. Was it the worse gas mileage, or the possibility of rollover that sold you on this purchase?
Look around, you idiot. 99.99% of the people who are buying SUVs today will NEVER take them offroad, unless you count that big gravel patch in the Safeway parking lot offroad.
So maybe you should have bought a decent CAR then instead of a wanna-be SUV.
In the market segment your vehicle is from, the Wrangler is clearly the better choice. (Unless you're buying an SUV for silly yuppie reasons.) You made the choice to say the American vehicles suck, and I pointed out that there's an American vehicle better than the one you're driving.
If you go around making silly generalizations like "American cars suck", expect to get called on it.
Personally, I drive a Mazda, but I appreciate nice cars from ANY country.