IT Workers Not Eligible for Overtime in New Rules 1068
bjarvis354 writes "The San Diego Union Tribune is reporting that the Department of Labor Secretary Elaine Chao unveiled new rules that seem to specifically target IT workers and other white collar workers for exemption from overtime pay. The Oneonta Daily Star claims that 'According to new exemption tests, the employee isn't guaranteed overtime pay if primary duties involve office or non-manual work,' and 'Computer employees are not guaranteed overtime pay if they make $455 a week, or if their hourly rate is $27.63. Affected employees include computer systems analysts, programmers, software engineers or anyone with a similar title.'"
This is new how? (Score:5, Informative)
Not news (Score:5, Informative)
Damn... (Score:5, Informative)
For all the difficulty and struggle that comes with it, it's a good time to be a contractor or self-employed.
They (some dept. in the govmn't) also put out a press-release type thing months ago instructing employers how to avoid overtime pay under general circumstances. Maybe someone could help me out and dig it up...
Your government, always fighting for the little guy instead of big business. Gotta love it.
Not All IT Workers (Score:1, Informative)
Only 100,000 people affected? (Score:3, Informative)
This sucks. I think that if you get an hourly wage you should get overtime pay, regardless of any other factors, if you work overtime.
Re:Damn... (Score:5, Informative)
Ah, here it is:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/ 2001830565_overtime06.html [nwsource.com]
That's an article about it, I used to have a copy of the actual document they're referring to.
Inaccurate Headline... (Score:5, Informative)
AFL-CIO story (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/overtimepay/
blakespot
Actually, this story is WRONG (Score:5, Informative)
The Bush administration on Tuesday pulled back from a planned overhaul of the nation's overtime rules, allowing more white-collar workers -- including those earning as much as $100,000 a year -- to continue collecting premium pay if they log more than 40 hours a week.
From The Oregonian [oregonlive.com]
Re: 100k (Score:2, Informative)
I don't want to hear any complaints if your making over 100k a year. If your making less thank 23,660 a year I'm confused too.
"According to new exemption tests, the employee isn't guaranteed overtime pay if primary duties involve office or non-manual work."
The people who have to make $100k are the people who aren't exempted.
It's not new - for salary workers (Score:5, Informative)
Employees that are on an Hourly wage get paid hourly. This new law is saying that if your wage is over this $20 mark, you do not have a right to earn time and a half, but you will still get paid on your hourly wage. If you work 60 hours you get paid for 60, not 70 (40 + 20 + (20/2))
Companies are required to have no more than 50% staff on Exempt status (ratio may change from state to state)
Re:Well... (Score:4, Informative)
So there are 48 weeks in your year?
$455/week x 52 weeks = $23,660/year
Your point is still valid, after taxes that's not a whole lot of money on which to live.
Re:Actually, this story is WRONG (Score:5, Informative)
IT in general wasn't in that group, very specific subsets of IT employees are in that group. Many employers would love to have you believe that every IT job is in that group, but that is simply not the case.
Re:Math troubles? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:If you don't get paid for something (Score:1, Informative)
this is news? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Inaccurate Headline... (Score:3, Informative)
Even in salaried positions, there are OSHA regulations which specify maximum continuous hours worked and minimum time off between shifts. I think the only exceptions are for certain health care and emergency personnel, but there are laws for the nonunion employee about allowed work practices.
This whole argument, to me, is kind of silly because people are either uninformed or just angry that they can't get as much of a free lunch as they once did. I'm with all those folks who have no tears for people "in tight financial straits" with a family and going from $100k to $75k salary (my parents raised me and my two siblings on about $28k (gross)/ year, and we even had two functional automobiles and a swimming pool! So yes, I'm biased and think that people with problems that make over $35k / year should shut up and suffer the consequences of poor decisions).
Read the friggin rules (Score:4, Informative)
Systems Administrators are still non-exempt. Programmers with 'high skill level' are not.
Re:It's not new - for salary workers (Score:5, Informative)
They can't make you punch a timeclock... nor can they deduct pay for being late or leaving early. Just like working extra time can't earn you extra money for the week, they can't deduct money if you work less than fourty hours. When it comes down to it, about the only retribution they have if they don't think you're working enough is to let you go.
I usually make a policy of demanding offsets for any time that I'm schedule to do something outside of business hours within the same week so that if anybody asks while I'm not there, there's a recent project that can be pointed at.
If a project just can't survive without me showing up seven consecutive days... then this is an ill-designed project to begin with. Most states have a "day of rest" law that prevents employers from scheduling any seven days in a row for the same employee anyway...
Want to know more about unionizing? (Score:1, Informative)
Actually, actually, this story is RIGHT (Score:5, Informative)
In a move designed to blur the issue, the Administration today said it was revising its previous effort to terminate overtime protections for 8 million workers [cnn.com]. But even by the Bush Administration's own admission, the "new" regulations will mean that tens of thousands of lower-income workers will be cut off [nytimes.com]. Opponents of the Administration's plan say that the revisions would still cause problems for mean millions. The regulations are so bad for workers that some state legislatures have even rushed through legislation to block them [kaaltv.com].
Re:This is new how? (Score:3, Informative)
Is your hourly rate $27.63? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:"New" rule? (Score:1, Informative)
Doesn't make any sense at all if you ask me. Not like it matters, IT's are already nothing more than slaves to the machine!
There is a union for computer professionals (Score:4, Informative)
Predates Bush administration (Score:1, Informative)
So this is not a new issue, but a continuation of the same standings.
I was beat out of overtime on Labor Day weekend of al times.
So quit your fucking liberal bedwetting and deal with it.
Re:Don't you wish you were blue collar? (Score:3, Informative)
I agree.
Seems to me that most blue-collar workers damn well do get paid for their overtime, and if the boss doesn't want to pony up the bucks, he can do the work himself.
I agree.
Seems to me that most professional blue-collar workers, like plumbers and carpenters and such, make upwards of six-figure incomes.
Six figures? Maybe if you include cents. According to this page [collegegrad.com] (from a quick google search), carpenters make an average of $16.44/hour. That's about $32k/year. Plumbers make $13.70/hr [collegegrad.com].
Re:Don't you wish you were blue collar? (Score:4, Informative)
The parent should not me modded Interesting
My brother in law is a plumber and steam fitter. It's true that when you're an independent contractor, and own your own business, you can make lots of money. However, to get to that point you need to get trained, and certified, and pay lots of dues. And you literally do pay dues. To become a plumber, or other skilled blue collar worker you need to work as an apprentice, for $30k a year, if that, for somebody else who makes the $100k a year, until you pay off your training -- which can take years
Even then, when you finally do become a master, and can start out on your own business, that takes a lot of money and hard work. You need money to set up shop, and you need to be a certain type of person to make the business work. If you're not good at keeping books, and running the business, you will never make $100k+ a year, and will have to go back to breaking your back for somebody else, even though you might be making as much as $40k+ for them
From the Dept of Labor: (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/whd/fair
Section 13(a)(1) and Section 13(a)(17) of the FLSA provide an exemption from both minimum wage and overtime pay for computer systems analysts, computer programmers, software engineers, and other similarly skilled workers in the computer field
These are the proposed rules to affect computer workers; there was a last minute change, but presumably these are the most up to date rules proposals, as it's straight from the DOL's website. Essentially, unless you make less than $455/week, you don't qualify for overtime if you're a computer worker.
Re:It's not new - for salary workers (Score:3, Informative)
The Exempt Employee Must Primarily Perform Exempt Duties.
To be exempt, the employee must be engaged in work that is "primarily" intellectual and varied, etc. The rule of thumb is that the employee must be engaged in his/her "exempt duties" for over 50% of the work week. However, under the federal rules, there is not an absolute 50%-plus rule if it is unquestionable that the employee's role is as an exempt individual.
However there is a stipulation about exempt vs non, but not a ratio. You just must be able to prove that your employee is exempt. You can't just blindly say "Sorry no OT for you". and you can get called on it.
Here is an article on Florida's overtime:
http://articles.corporate.findlaw.com/
Re:"New" rule? (Score:3, Informative)
If we were union (my last employer was) I'd work with some slugs who barely get 40 hours in, and don't do half the work I did most days, and I was a part time student employee. And they got paid triple what I was paid. Yeah, I got screwed, and I made them all look very bad, but my boss also knew I did a lot of work and so would let me take some extra time off with pay from time to time (no vacation for students/part-time) and let me "work from home" a few times a month. Not perfect, but it worked while I was in school.
Re:Actually, this story is WRONG (Score:5, Informative)
The employee must be employed as a computer systems analyst, computer programmer, software engineer or other similarly skilled worker in the computer field performing the duties described below;
-The employee's primary duty must consist of:
1) The application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software or system functional specifications;
2) The design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications;
3) The design, documentation, testing, creation or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems; or
4) A combination of the aforementioned duties, the performance of which requires the same level of skills.
These are the up to date rules changes proposals.
http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/whd/fair
Re:Bush administration (Score:1, Informative)
I didnt think anyone who made over 40k a year and is salary (who isnt salary at that point except contractors?) got paid OT pay.
Best I've ever seen a place give out for extra-hours worked is 'comp time'
How does this translate to a right wing conspiracy?
Re:Bush administration (Score:2, Informative)
I don't think that's true. 21K is very close to the median for some of the poorer states like AR, MS, etc. States with higher populations like NY, and CA are higher, around 26-27K per year. Someone in IT making 21K/yr is far, far, far from rich.
Here [payscale.com] is a link to find median wages for the US.
Re:Bush administration (Score:4, Informative)
Re:gimme a link (Score:1, Informative)
If you currently work, you're probably rich [nashvillecitypaper.com]
Re:Bush administration (Score:3, Informative)
2002 census info [census.gov]
Salaried workers can and do get overtime (Score:5, Informative)
Just because you are a "salaried employee" does not mean you are exempt from overtime regulation. Salaried employees have an hourly rate - it's determined by dividing the "salary" by the number of hours worked each week.
Essentially, all employees are subject to overtime rules by default, unless they are categorically exempt. Exempt employees include "professionals" such as lawyers, doctors, etc., and employees whose principal duties are the management and supervision of other employees. There are a number of other exceptions (I seem to recall that truck drivers, for example, are exempt. In California, many employers try to screw employees out of overtime by giving them the title of "manager" or "assistant manager", even though they remain wage slaves.
Re:Actually, this story is WRONG (Score:2, Informative)
There is no "highly compensated test" in current law,
There is... As an IT worker, you can be exempt if you make 6 times minimum wage or more.
Re:No better in Canada.... (Score:3, Informative)
If you're salaried, you're not entitled to overtime. If, on the other hand, you're payed hourly and are working more than 44 hours per week, your employer is legally obligated to pay you time and a half for every hour over that. If this is the case, contact the labour relations board immediately and they will bitchslap your employer through the floor and obtain the outstanding wages owed you.
Re:If you don't get paid for something (Score:3, Informative)
Er, not legal under US labor law.
Unions must be certified by the bargaining unit (the employees). If a union comes from outside to organize a shop, they (1) usually need someone inside to do the organizing, because it's only employees that have those rights (the union organizers who are not employees do not necessarily have the right to distribute literature, organize meetings, etc.); and (2) have to hold a certification vote where a majority of employees vote to bring in the union. There are cases where bargaining can become recognized without a successful certification vote, such as:
- The union presents signed union cards that represent a majority of the employees (proof that the employees *would* vote for the union). This is not usually done, though, because people want their anonymity protected until the union is certified.
- The shop is purchased by a company with an existing union contract, and the acquisition defaults to union status.
- An unsuccessful certification vote is held, but it is determined by the National Labor Relations Board that actions of the employer tainted the results, and further, that any re-vote would suffer from the same taint, such that it is not possible to have a fair election. The NLRB can then require the employer to recognize the union. (This is VERY rare; usually the NLRB requires the employer to remedy the actions that tainted the election, then holds a new election.)
- The employer can choose to recognize the union without a vote. This is very risky for the employer, though, since they could be accused of installing a company union, which is an unfair labor practice. Further, the employees have a right to hold a decertification election if they don't actually want to be recognized. (This is the only way the story you tell could have happened, but since the employees could have voted out the union, it seems very unlikely.)
So, um, where are you getting your "facts?" It sounds like you're getting a garbled version of the story from someone who was very much against this unionization campaign. Do you have a news article or something with more concrete information?
Nothing new (Score:2, Informative)
Join the club...it's getting bigger daily.
Re:Bush administration (Score:5, Informative)
Kerry, among other Democrats, has taken great pains to point out that he favors a tax increase on only those household who take home more than $200K a year.
Just as a little personal example... I make a bit mroe than 28K a year, but less than 100K a year. I'll leave a little wiggle room in there for your imaginations. Last year, thanks to George W's tax cuts, I had to pay less income tax. Net savings was approx 300. Thanks!
But wait. Because W wasn't done yet, oh no sir. He lowered the amount of interest I pay on my student loans that I could deduct on my taxes. Net loss to me, approx 740. Apparently getting a (very slight) break on the interest of your student loans is too much to ask for. Thanks!
So thanks to George, I'm paying about 340 more than I did before, our deficit is through the roof, and it doesn't seem things will get better. If Kerry wants to raise taxes on people who make over 200K, and reset it so we middle class folks get our real advantages back while losing those superficial advantages, god bless him and good luck in November.
Re:Actually, this story is WRONG (Score:2, Informative)
Wrong. Try 150,000 [house.gov] I'd be interested in seeing the stats to back up your other numbers...
Interesting - but article is wrong... (Score:4, Informative)
Of course, we were not very happy at the prospect, and complained loudly!
We were then routinely dispatched to fire scenes for 'standby' so that the county government could try to argue that we were 'fire fighting personnel' and fell under that exemption. When that didn't fly with the workers either (and the law was pointed out to the county commissioners), a LARGE chunk of back pay was paid.
The current law requires overtime for anything over 212 hours in a 28 day period for fire fighting personnel - for anyone else covered by the FLSA it is any hours over 160 in 28 days.
For you or I, that means working slightly over 10.5 hours a day every work day (5 days per week) for 4 weeks - WITHOUT GETTING OVERTIME PAY. (by the way, I am salaried and don't get overtime, anyway - but I do get compensatory time off...)
So when the article mentions the overtime protection already afforded to Fire, Police, and EMS workers, it is deceptive, as they are NOT paid under the same rules as other people.
My take on this is this is another "business friendly - fsck everyone else" move by the Bush administration. I don't like it.
And the truth is... (Score:2, Informative)
Dept. of Labor rules governing overtime pay haven't been updated since the 1970's. Those rules have an extensive list of occupations and exemption (from overtime) status - I think there are about 1300 of them. Since that time, many new "occupations" have been created (mostly in IT), and those that existed then are totally different now. If employees were in an occupation not covered by the DOL rules, they would often have to seek redress through the courts to have their overtime eligible status determined. This was very expensive and created an incomprehensible web of court rulings that employers couldn't make heads or tails from. The new DOL rules simply codify rulings already made. So for the first time in a long time, Employers and Employees will know the rules up front instead of a bunch of ad-hoc rulings that were fair to no one.
And by the way all of you "indentured servants" and "slaves" should get back to work now instead of reading Slashdot on your employer's dime.
Re:Actually, this story is WRONG (Score:4, Informative)
Companies depend on IT. No IT, and your company will collapse. Now if we had a nation wide Union, we could stop this is a heart beat.
Some people don't want to let market decide pay rates when it doesn't work in there favor.
The law doesn't mean you won't get overtime pay .. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Actually, this story is WRONG (Score:5, Informative)
Back in the 50's and 60's the popular press was filled with stories predicting a future when automation would mean we could all work 25 or 30 hour weeks and still live the good life. The accepted presumption was that the wealth of society would be shared.
But under our current system of unrestrained capitalism business has found it more profitable to fire a quarter of the workforce, move a quarter of the jobs overseas and crack the whip on the remaining few workers forcing them to work massive hours for stagnant pay.
Eventually something has to give. The trouble is that Joe Pickup and Mommy Minivan still buy into the illusion of upward mobility even as their finances crumble around them and decent work disappears.
Maybe when the 30 million Walmart and Fast Food jobs get turned over to Service Robots people will wake up and start to wonder how we are going to provide the chance at a decent life to all the members of our society.
Re:Bush administration (Score:3, Informative)
I would agree that this is rare in an office environment, but there are any number of blue collar jobs that are hourly and pay better than $40K per year. For that matter, I have had several salary style jobs that paid considerably less.
Re:Math troubles? (Score:2, Informative)
Most salary jobs include benefits so the net value of the job to the employer is the same as a higher hourly wage.
Re:"Salaried" usually equals "hourly" anyways (Score:3, Informative)
It is illegal. Many companies have (fairly recently) been found in violation, and had to pay every employee all their owed overtime pay. By docking you 2 hours of pay, the company has firmly classified you as an hourly employee, and they now owe you 26 hours (just math from your hypothetical situation) of overtime pay, regardless of whether you're even still employed there.
If there's no dispute over the fact that you were docked for sub-40 hours, this is cut and dried. If the company made a practice of this and is reasonably large, they are in very real danger of getting hit with a class action, and having to pay a massive amount of back overtime pay.
Re:Actually, this story is WRONG (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Bush administration (Score:2, Informative)
Clinton Added The Exemption In 1996 (Score:3, Informative)