de Icaza: Rest of World Will Force US Into Linux 886
Eugenia writes "OSNews had an interesting discussion with Miguel de Icaza about all things Linux and Novell. Miguel talked about the general patent problem and how this will become the one single stumbling block of widespread adoption of Linux in USA, while he asserts that Longhorn uses some 'new' technologies already found on Gnome and elsewhere. Miguel believes that poor countries will be the first that will adopt widely Linux, and as long the EU won't adopt a similar system to US for patents, Europe will follow soon after, leaving no option to USA but to eventually adopt Linux as well in the long run (despite potential patent problems). Another strategy Miguel discussed was about moving as many F/OSS applications as possible to Windows in order to familiarize the casual users with open source. Among many other interesting tidbits he also mentions that Quark is now using Mono on Mac OS X." Of course, the EU not adopting software patents seems to be less and less likely.
Maybe Not... (Score:5, Insightful)
A great idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux needs to improve to become a better desktop OS.
Many organizations do not use Linux and F/OSS becuase they have not been certified for use with their profession, like accounting etc. So there needs to be certification of Linux and F/OSS products. If the organization doing the certification is in the pocket of MS, fat chance of that happening.
The rest of the world... (Score:5, Insightful)
I really don't see this changing.
Re:de Icaza and software patents (Score:3, Insightful)
> Actually, the same criticism applies to all these big name open-source advocates.
Right, RMS is in it for the $$$:-)
Re:A great idea (Score:5, Insightful)
In the good fight with Microsoft, we must use every advantage we have. Coverting OSS packages to work on windows is a killer because Microsoft can't do it without aiding us! If we have applications that work across a variety of platforms, then we have a selling point that Microsoft doesn't. However, if they tried to do the same thing - for instance, porting Office to Linx - that would only benefit us anyway. So it's win/win for us and lose/lose for MS.
"US" is one entity? (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to mention (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean, when is the last time you heard of a successful business person taking advice from a skid row bum?
And, yes, I know it sounds harsh, elitist, and rude, but it is the truth and we all know it.
All that needs to happen (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course, while the U.S. sucks for console games, it rules the PC game market. So I don't know how likely it is for games to be a way for the world to force the U.S. into OS compliance...
Also if De Icaza gets his way this won't happen.. since Icaza's glorified-Wine mono project is more likely to lead to crossplatform games than linux-only ones...
-- Super Ugly Ultraman
Re:Maybe Not... (Score:3, Insightful)
The Third World (Score:5, Insightful)
From the article:
Poor countries don't have the money to buy and maintain Windows; this is where open source software is becoming a real and powerful alternative," he said.
OK, but if they are too poor to maintain Windows, doesn't that also mean that they are that much more open to pressures and special "deals" (to ensure lock-in) from Microsoft?
Re:Havn't I heard this before? (Score:5, Insightful)
Joe Six-Pack in the U.S. doesn't usually need to use the metric system in his life, so he has no incentive to change over to it. He DOES however use the internet regularly, and his company may do deal with some overseas companies. If Linux is adopted overseas, all it means it that interoperability will probably have to be maintained between Linux and Windows. Once that happens though, managers in the US may start to see the cost savings, and switch.
On the other hand, as long as the interoperability is maintained, there is no incentive to switch.
For instance, if the U.S. was REALLY serious about moving to the metric system, they should offer incentives to Juice/Bottle makers too only put out things in metric containers (instead of a Half gallon of milk/Juice, go get a 2 liter contianer). They should also mandate that all gas pumps should be switched to the Liter instead of the Gallon. Those two things alone would bring the Metric system into the average persons, life in such a dramatic way that it might foster adoption (one they get past the resentment that things have changed
Cross-Platform (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nothing to see here. (Score:1, Insightful)
Here's to another 7-10 years of the Linux community ignoring people telling them how to improve the end user experience!
Re:Uh huh... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Havn't I heard this before? (Score:4, Insightful)
And at the same time, avoid pissing off the rest of the metric world by spelling litre properly. I know "liter" is an accepted way of spelling litre, but it just looks wrong IMHO.
Do not underestimate the EU (Score:5, Insightful)
The EU is becoming more and more unified every year, and the economy of Europe is quickly becoming simmilar to the economy of the US, where you can compare a European country to a US state.
United States:
Total GDP (2002) - 10.4 Trillion $
GDP/head - $37,600
Ranked 1st (countries)
European Union:
Total GDP (2002) - 9.61 Trillion
GDP/head - 21,125
Ranked 1st if counted as a single country
Europe is coming up fast... not to mention China and India. The days of the US as the economic superpoer of the wolrd are numbered by just abount any metric you use.
Re:Maybe Not... (Score:5, Insightful)
The US isn't exactly known for following the rest of the world. Think of the metric system, for one...
Well, the metric system has made inroads here. It's patchy--you buy liters of Pepsi, but gallons of milk. In certain occupations, though, it's the lingua franca.
Linux adoption will probably be equivalent. It'll be here-and-there, except in areas where it's omnipresent. And that's a good thing, as it avoids a software monoculture.
Yes and No (Score:5, Insightful)
Metric vs. SAE
... and a lot of other things
But then this weekend something happened that changed my mind on the future of Linux. I downloaded Knoppix 3.4 and stuck the CD in a friend's WinXP box with a failing HD. WinXP wouldn't boot. Knoppix "just worked". It auto-configured all the hardware (a Dell 4550 series P4) and allowed me to back up most of this person's data to a CDR.240V 50Hx vs. 120V 60Hz
Drive on left vs. drive on right side of the road
EBCDIC vs. ASCII (IBM vs. everyone else)
This is the kind of thing that will make people take notice of Linux. They want a car that they can turn the key and drive away. People don't want a car that needs to have the engine tuned before they can drive it off the lot. Or one that they actually have to read the owner's manual.
They want an computer that auto-configures and is intuitively obvious to use. Knoppix 3.4 is a step in that direction.Re:The rest of the world... (Score:4, Insightful)
The advantages of linux and the like extend beyond price alone. Linux did not exist in a viable form when the windows empire took hold of the states, but it has a fighting chance in some of these new markets. While I doubt that linux will ever reach a point of domination similar to what windows has gotten, (honestly, would any reasonable person want it to?), it will force a lot of interoperability efforts on behalf of MS.
US and EU patents (Score:4, Insightful)
In the US it is all too possible for something to be well established prior art, but an inventor claims to have made the invention prior to the first date of open publication. Having been involved with both US and European patents until about 1995, I considered the US system to be deeply screwed - the opportunity for fraud is immense. (though yes, that didn't stop me from filing US patent applications...)The EU system should not be so bad.
If this still applies, the important thing is for all ideas and concepts being brought to the OSS table to be published as soon as possible after they arise, thus creating prior art even if it is only in a very buggy bit of code.
Of course, if the US gets the entire IP world to rely on "date of invention", we're all screwed, and I'm going to buy a farm and retire.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Maybe Not... (Score:1, Insightful)
Thankfully, for a time, the government ignored the ignorant protesters and decided to help Iraq.
Re:All that needs to happen (Score:4, Insightful)
I was discussing this with a friend over dinner the other night. once games are released for Linux as well as Windows (UT2004, for example, and the forthcoming Doom 3), gamers need only be shown Linux GL benchmarks before they'll happily switch to a Linux 2.6.x system for 5-10FPS gains over Windows.
The money's moving (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Maybe Not... (Score:2, Insightful)
The pro-Saddam protesters (Score:0, Insightful)
No, they were protesting out of hatred for the Iraqi people and out of a desire to keep Saddam Hussein in power. They cared nothing for Iraqi lives: Saddam was executing between 10,000 and 20,000 a year.
"No, they cared about the eleven thousand people who are now dead who woulnd't be dead right now but for the war."
Given Saddam's previous track record, there likely would have been 20,000 dead if the protests had their way and their hero Saddam was still around to fill the body pits.
Biased, but a true believer (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Evolution Win32 (Slightly OT) (Score:3, Insightful)
Not sure. Most are already using Mozilla FireFox because it's simply better than IE 6, but we don't use OpenOffice as we all have copies of MS Office. Personally I dabble in linux a few times a year but never found a compelling reason not to go back to Windows.
The problem Linux faces in our situation is that Windows 2000 *just works*. F/OSS can be driven by our choosing to convert to OSS software on our PCs but, although this makes it easier for us to switch to Linux it gives us few reasons to do so. With AVG or Norton Antivirus, Zonealarm, Media Player Classic and iTunes we're quite happy with our Windows desktops.
The American Consumer (Score:1, Insightful)
And that's not because Americans are stupid/lazy/whatever; it is because it is the largest consumer market in the world. Corporations will bend over backwards to cater to the needs (real or perceived) of the American buyer.
Not saying that it is good or right, but that's just how it is.
Missing Points (Score:4, Insightful)
First, F/OSS is only as good as it's user input. If you use such software and gripe about it's this-or-that, but never submit even these quirks to the dev team, DON'T expect the issues to get resolved any time soon. The dev team, unlike major corporations, doesn't have the ability or capital to test and develop on a wide scale.
Second, on a lower level, I doubt Microsoft would be up for offering deals to poorer economies, lock-in or not. If they offer WinXP Pro to Uraguay for $50 a license, the American businesses that got the "Special Business License" for $75 would start whining. That's just something they don't need to deal with. In such case, I think MS will continue to treat the market as a whole in the manner they always have.
Third, in relation to the productivity of an application or OS, I would haard a guess that one is more productive when one goes into something (e.g. a new OS, a new F/OSS app) expecting to BE more productive. I tried the Firefox browser a few months ago, and hated it. Coincidentally, I expected to hate it because it wasn't IE. A month or two later, I tried it again, with a more open mind, and lo and behold, it's my current favorite browser. Same idea for C++/C# IDEs - from VC++ 6 to some no-name F/OSS IDE with ero problems. It's all relative.
So as far as a mass migration to Linux, it's anyone's guess - but I think it's a bit too early to be calling it Linux's game. Too many branches, and a whole new system to learn, seem to be a bit daunting for the average user. Wait ten years until Linux certification really gets a firm footing in the industry, and until the weaker Linux flavors drop off or conglomerate, and we may have some good competition.
Re:it's up to everyone else, not us... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not to mention (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux will only become pervasive in the US after companies have seen other companies make it work (and make it work better than Windows) and be profitable. Once it's proven itself, adoption by US companies should be easier...at least to newly formed companies. Some existing companies are still using mainframes, so I doubt they're going to be switching over to "The Next Big Thing".
--trb
Re:Gut reaction (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:"US" is one entity? (Score:1, Insightful)
If that weren't true, then Microsoft wouldn't have any concern over Linux or MacOS. Many businesses use Linux. I'm working on a project where we are using it in a mixed environment. I have several friends who are doing similar things with it.
While it is often fashionable to portray businesses as lumbering dinosaurs, the truth is that they are quick to adopt things that drive sales to an identifiable market. The shift will occur in different industries at different times. If manufacturers find that their foreign customers want to use OpenOffice document formats instead of MS Office, you can count on someone having OpenOffice loaded on a bunch of machines and some internal training happening pretty quickly. The profit motive drives production of what customers are willing to buy.
Re:Are you being sarcastic? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Do not underestimate the EU (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't blame the store - blame all those lads trying to get stuff shipped to Nigeria, or the UAE, or any one of a dozen other third-world crime holes.
It's about 10 gajillion times easier to just flat out say "No foreign cards or deliveries" than it is trying to train up a gormless local to spot fraud. Costs a hella lot less, too.
And don't forget that most UK businesses will have no way of verifying your name and address as they relate to the card's genuine holder.
All in all, I'm glad that you can't just use any card from any country. It's a pain if you're living in Brittany, but I'm sure you've found numerous things that make up for it. I'll trade the ability to painlessly buy a keyboard for your rail system, for one.
Re:Maybe Not... (Score:2, Insightful)
The Spanish really started to turn out after their country started to get attacked. Just shows the difference between Americans and Spanish. We get attacked and we fight back. The Spanish put their tails between their legs are run home.
Re:Russia and China (Score:3, Insightful)
No, thats the US. China and Russia are strong but nothing compaired to the US.
>China, as we have seen went out of their way to develop an alternative DVD standard
So did BestBuy.
>And they almost went their own way on WiFi too.
The US has gone their own way with alot of standards. They "did", not "almost".
Re:Uh huh... (Score:3, Insightful)
Quite a breakthrough.
Re:Hello! World to Miguel! (Score:3, Insightful)
"Another strategy Miguel discussed was about moving as many F/OSS applications as possible to Windows in order to familiarize the casual users with open source."
It is not easy to move Linux/Unix stuff to Windows. It is expensive - costs the developers time and effort, and there are other costs supporting a rather different architecture- look at the various apache-win bugs. And what does that gain Linux and the rest? More Windows software. Wow, great move that.
What next? Get people to write more native windows software, instead of just porting Linux apps to windows? Oh yah he's trying that too:
"Another Microsoft spokesperson told internetnews.com [internetnews.com] that, "Mono is just one example of the level of excitement within the developer community around
Insert image of MS spokesperson "rubbing hands with glee" - More Windows software.
If more Linux developers write Mono software for Linux and Mono software runs on Windows with no modifications, AND MS office and other Windows-only software doesn't run on Linux.
THEN the software available for Windows increases more than software available for Linux. Go figure.
Do I need to talk slower and more loudly? Doh.
And what if there's an "embrace and extend" war? With some slight incompatibilities? Who wins? Mono-certified
And now this joker talks about the World Forcing the US into Linux if the EU doesn't do the US thing.
Doh. What next the World Forcing the US into signing the CO2 treaty? Sorry I must have lost track of which universe I was in. This must be the universe where the World forced the US into Iraq eh? And where Miguel ends up being the whole reason for the universe entire existence.
a singularity of.... (Score:2, Insightful)
I think FOSS will be universally adopted, because it has the momentum and mindshare now within the developer community of the younger people,not the users yet but the developers, who are becoming the techs/admins and eventually the managers all across the professional IT board, the dreaded PHBes. They will use what they are comfortable with, and attrition will negate the dominance of closed source and propietary and (more) expensive.
But I also think that change in hardware will dictate what gets used as well, I can foresee when all devices use embedded, and that will extend to the desktop, both home and business, which will go to a merge between a full thin client model, distributed computing, and stand alone single use machines. Hmm, for example, the "business desktop" that comes prebuilt to work only with a secure company server system, and is even more modular than wehat we have today, extremely easy plug and play modularity, with "aware" components that don't have to work in conjunction with extremely specific hardware, following the USB and Firewire progression modality, and that also contain their own processors, ram, OS and so forth. Plug it in, it can talk to all the other devices, not being dependent on a single OS, just having a common way to communicate in other words.
It's interesting to watch it really. Cellphones that are becoming PDAs with audio video capabilities, PDAs that evolve into cell phones, desktops that resemble laptops (smaller, adoption of LCDish screens, etc), laptops that can mimic powerful desktops justfrom advanced features, etc. Hardrives becoming more RAM like, while RAM being used more and more like a hardrive used to be used for.
It's quite amazing really, because we've crossed the point where any sort of single monolithic standard can be dominant, there just isn't time to market something extensively before it's entirely obsolete, this will gradually force just the interoperability standards of communicating between devices to determine general computing trends more than anything else, and even there that's a moving target right now.
Re:Metric System (Score:2, Insightful)
Which is precisely why it's so useless for day-to-day temperature measurement. In many places it frequently drops well below the freezing point of water during winter, but unless you live on Venus or Mercury, temperatures never come close to boiling.
It's not completely coincidental that 0-100 F happens to correspond to the normal range of temperatures one might experience over the course of a year, with anything below 0 F or above 100 F being clear extremes.
Re:liter/litre meter/metre (Score:3, Insightful)
I disagree (Score:3, Insightful)
I do feel that linux will take over though, but it won't be because of pressure from interoperability. Eventually, Microsoft will buckle like the UNIX companies and begin distributing their own linux distribution with as full Windows compatibility as linux can get (insert macro virus joke here). People will say it sucks but use it anyway because it becomes preloaded on most retail machines and businesses will continue to prefer it. MS will get most of its revenue from infrastructure consulting, hardware and Office sales, and console game licensing, and will be able to move farther into the highend server arena.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Terrorism caused Spain government change (Score:1, Insightful)
You are forgetting the fact that the Aznar government, which supported helping Iraq, was very popular in Spain and was headed for re-election. The terrorism changed it.
Re:Gut reaction (Score:3, Insightful)
I missed one arbitrary difference: US mains is 60Hz, while most of the rest of the world is 50Hz. This ensured that - even if the whole world had agreed on a single TV specification - it would still be incompatible with the US.
Why is the US 110V 60Hz instead of 220V 50Hz? Because of Thomas Edison and his bizarre attempts to foist a DC system on the country.
The underlying aspect is that in America it is capitalism which determines standards and that capitalism often involves sticking it to your competitors and their customers. Look at the New York City subway map [nyc.ny.us] to see what happens when you rely on free-market competition to deliver a solution. See all those lines between the financial district and Brooklyn Heights? Those were the valuable routes, so you now have six parallel lines with virtually no interconnection. Ditto US cellphones in the 1990s.
Re:Do not underestimate the EU (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, yes.
Do you think that a weak country could even begin to get close to their size of what they owe the rest of the world? US interest rates are insanely low (~1%) and they still lend them money. Not a sign of what people think is a weak country.
Re:All that needs to happen (Score:5, Insightful)
- Require a reboot
- What if you need to patch the game ?
- What if you need drivers for hardware (ie video cards) that came out after the CD ? Or updated drivers ?
- What if you want to run a third-party application (ie Roger Wilco) in paralel with your game ?
- Where and how do you save game ?
- How do you use/apply mods to your games ?
- How do you manage networking (setting, patch, etc)
There's probably more, these are just those I can come up with in 30 seconds.
Re:Metric System (Score:3, Insightful)
I've lived in several metric countries, they all get along quite well with integeral Celsius weather reports. It's always irritating when I read some story where it's obvious some editor or reporter has taken a round figure in one system and converted it to another with 5 figures of implied accuracy ("it was about 160.93 kilometres away..."). One Celsius degree is more than fine enough to know what to wear.
Re:Metric System (Score:3, Insightful)
In the real world, you'd be deciding whether to make it 31C or 32C. Incidentally, that'd be for a hothouse.
Re:The European Union is not "Europe" (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't forget, even the United States has trouble getting along with itself. Not just the political parties, but the North and the South still see each other as "separate but equal". Just because you belong to the same state/country/alliance doesn't mean you'll get along.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Metric System (Score:5, Insightful)
For most long distance trips I figure 60 miles/hour on average (I drive fast, my kid needs stops). That works out to... a mile a minute.
More precision. Calculate that.
F/OSS on Windows - great idea. (Score:2, Insightful)
But fundamentalist F/OSS developers often tell me that they don't want their software running on the Evil Empire's OS and that if users want to run them they need to use a supported OS. They seem to be angry at the user for running Windows in the first place. I think this is a counter-productive attitude: We want people to use F/OSS software, but we refuse to make it available on the OS that the majority of them run?
I don't mean to imply that all or even most developers feel this way, but it remains an attitude that must be dealt with if we are ever to 'dominate the world.'
-Nick
It's a Fad (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:Maybe Not... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's easy to protest when you don't think you have any skin in the game. Unfortunately not everyone can cede the responsibility to stand up for what is right. Because of their economic and military prowess the US has been a prime target of attack and must reserve the right to join battles to protect their citizens. While there are many valid reasons to fault American leadership, appeasing terrorists in a wrongheaded and cowardly attempt protect Spanish citizens and to spite the US is not a productive way to register displeasure. Why not just vandalize a McDonalds? Better yet, promise - and deliver - support for a limited approach to deter terrorism that Spain supports.
Of course, no one should be surprised that following French "leadership" isn't exactly the best of political moves. Spain is out of the war, but the public professions of weakness in the face of adversity not only caused the horrible train bombing in Madrid, but will cause more deaths as the American elections roll around. Hopefully the lives of American servicemen will help to keep you safe.
Unfortunately the US will not be able to do anything to deter Spanish internal terrorist groups. What lesson do you think the ETA learned from the public professions of weakness?
Re:Metric System (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:who says? (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, if we are picking at random from major disributions (especially if you choose a weighted average) then there is a good chance you'll get a distribution from France (Mandrake), Germany (Knoppix, SuSe), Internationally Developed (Debian, Gentoo). The only really major distribution I can think of that comes from the USA is Redhat, or possibly Slackware, which is only major in historical terms.
Yes most of these distributions can be localised to American English, but of course that is not the only locale they support. Every one of the above distributions supports more than one language.
Check your assumptions, boy.
Re:All that needs to happen (Score:3, Insightful)
All of these are neatly handled by requiring a USB port and a USB flash drive to store settings, patches, drivers, etc.
A reboot and/or parallel applications is not a big problem for a high end game that uses most of the machine anyway.