de Icaza: Rest of World Will Force US Into Linux 886
Eugenia writes "OSNews had an interesting discussion with Miguel de Icaza about all things Linux and Novell. Miguel talked about the general patent problem and how this will become the one single stumbling block of widespread adoption of Linux in USA, while he asserts that Longhorn uses some 'new' technologies already found on Gnome and elsewhere. Miguel believes that poor countries will be the first that will adopt widely Linux, and as long the EU won't adopt a similar system to US for patents, Europe will follow soon after, leaving no option to USA but to eventually adopt Linux as well in the long run (despite potential patent problems). Another strategy Miguel discussed was about moving as many F/OSS applications as possible to Windows in order to familiarize the casual users with open source. Among many other interesting tidbits he also mentions that Quark is now using Mono on Mac OS X." Of course, the EU not adopting software patents seems to be less and less likely.
EU software patents. (Score:5, Interesting)
The Poorer Countries Will.. (Score:0, Interesting)
The new market for the 21st century (Score:4, Interesting)
Evolution Win32 (Slightly OT) (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been trying to get them off Outlook/OExpress for ages (for safety purposes) but most refused to go to Thunderbird as it was "too different"
They can hardly say that about Evolution.
it's up to everyone else, not us... (Score:2, Interesting)
But the problem is that it is NOT "good enough". Just because OSS zealots think it is does not mean that it is.
When I can open every single one of my Word and Excel files without a single error then it will be "good enough". The missing features, etc, are one thing but not having the exact replica of what I saved in Office is a hassle.
I agree with him that if OSS software gets rooted on the Windows side then the transition to the Linux side would be easier... Only if Linux becomes a large percentage better than Windows at somepoint. That point comes when the rest of the world decides it not when "we" do.
Because Miguel de Icaza is unbiased? (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course someone deeply involved in the Open Source software movement is going to say that Linux will become the dominant system. It's in his best interest to say that.
Bill Gates, Steve Balmer, Craig Mundie, etc. all feel that Windows and Microsoft software will be the dominant platform. Steve Jobs thinks that Apple and OS X will be the dominant platform. Is this really news?
The more interesting question is if de Icaza *really* believes that Gnome and Mono are going to be the dominant desktop. I know as the founder of the project, again it is in his interest to say yes. I just wonder if he's tried to use a KDE 3.2.x system and what his impressions are of it?
Do as I say, not as I do?? (Score:4, Interesting)
It always bugged me that Evolution was not available for Windows. I'd be more than happy to ditch Outlook, but a good alternative does not exist. The Mozilla family is not a good alternative.
I hope that this means we'll see Evolution and others ported to Windows in the near future.
Russia and China (Score:5, Interesting)
Hello! World to Miguel! (Score:0, Interesting)
Don't forget: this guy also thinks Mono is a great idea.
Sometimes I wonder if he's actually working for MS with the ideas or "strategies" he comes up with.
Re:Havn't I heard this before? (Score:4, Interesting)
No it didn't work, but the rest of the world cares not for the backwards, stone-age measurement systems used by the US. Instead of persisting, we just point and laugh when the US talks of feet and inches.
The US won't be the world's super power forever, once they're second or third for a half century, I'm sure they'll make efforts to fall into line.
Re:Evolution Win32 (Slightly OT) (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:it's up to everyone else, not us... (Score:2, Interesting)
Business.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Thats not to say though that I haven't had my share of problems- cant get tv out working nicely, or 5.1 sound, or my OpenGL working right...
But for sitting down and doing research, coding and web activites, I'm finding Linux (i'm using Mandrake 9.2 btw) is more productive for me than Windows.
And when it comes to business, productivity is a significant drawcard. Due to my new found fondness of linux and OSS this week, im thinking that OSS will win users over due to it's increasing quality moreso than patent issues.
Metric System (Score:5, Interesting)
They just didn't force people to stop using the units and measures with which they were familiar.
Coming from a science/engineering background, I *hate* working in traditional/avoirdupois/empire units.
On the other hand, it feels unnatural to talk about the weather in anything but degrees Fahrenheit. I've tried. I have plenty of European relatives. But centigrade's units feel too "big" and awkward.
Microsoft might prefer piracy over Linux usage... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Maybe Not... (Score:1, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Law of unconsidered consequences (Score:4, Interesting)
This will backfire, as it forces innovation out of the US.
Honestly, I expect Europe to follow the US lead. The same corporations that are doing this to the US are also well entrenched in Europe. So in effect, we're pushing innovation to India and China, the new growing world economies.
Misconceptions (Score:3, Interesting)
Other changes for metric adoption (Score:3, Interesting)
Lumber - 5x10's instead of 2x4's (a 2x4 is not even 2 inches by 4 inches) and metric lengths.
Carpeting/flooring etc - sell by sq meter instead of sq yrd.
All scales sold must use metric as Primary unit (they could also give the archaic english units)
There is a lot more use of the metric system in the US society than you might think at first glance. Those people working in anything to do with chemistry are likely using the metric system in their work.
I don't think the US will ever adopt the kilometre in place of the mile, however, because in a lot of the US, the land is plotted into 1 mile square sections and this provides a more usable unit with which to measure distances. Using km would just be more confusion.
Does anyone know if there is a metric unit that would correspond to the english bushel? (a unit of volume)
Re:Yes and No (Score:2, Interesting)
Pssst... wanna hear a secret? So do the new ones.
Re:Evolution Win32 (Slightly OT) (Score:5, Interesting)
Exactly the same problem here.
I've tried to get our administrative staff to switch to Thunderbird.
Really just for safety reasons. (because our email addresses are in many attachment-clicking-OE-users' addressbooks, and it takes only one non-attachment OE-exploit to infect our staff's computers)
However after a week they told me in unanimity they wanted to switch back to OE.
Naturally, I asked: Why? Doesn't Thunderbird do everything OE does too? (and better, like filtering and searching)
They answered: Well, yes that's true, but it's still different!
So grudingly I had to switch them back.
Moral of the story: We need a better Outlook skin for Thunderbird.
Re:Metric System (Score:5, Interesting)
Is it the American thing where 'bigger is better' or what? That's what always confused me on why we don't adopt the metric system. Base 10 is so natural to use, not this base 12, no, base 3, no, base 5280, no, fractions baby! Is it a math teacher conspiracy or what?
I dropped out of college to stop my brain from exploding when I went from a physics class that was full metric to an aerospace engineering course that was all 'english' measurement. When a prof or whatever popped up and said something about a 'slug' being an measurement of atmospheric pressure I thought I was going to die.
Re:All that needs to happen (Score:4, Interesting)
It needn't even be Linux
Re:Metric System (Score:4, Interesting)
My dad thought metric was horrible until I gave him a 5-minute explanation and then asked him how many grams of water are in a cubic meter, and he was able to answer. Then I asked him how many tablespoons are in a ton of water, and he decided that metric had something going for it after all.
My father-in-law thinks it's funny that I never remember how many cups are in a pint, or some other weird conversion. To him, it proves that people don't learn as much in college as they think they do.
Re:Uh huh... (Score:4, Interesting)
After all, we're only ordinary men.
Holy crap! Someone makes a joke about a comment using a pretty well known, 30+ year old Pink Floyd line and it gets modded Insightful instead of Funny. I always thought those guys were great lyricists, and this looks like conclusive proof to me.
Rock on all you Floyd fans!
Re:Do not underestimate the EU (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Do not underestimate the EU (Score:2, Interesting)
but you did not what is ranked first in:
certainly not GDP 9.61 vs 10.4 nor GDP/Head 21.1K vs 337.6K, and certainly not population, China and Indian has everyone else beat on that count.
No flames please.
Re:Do not underestimate the EU (Score:2, Interesting)
Only they're not. With the major exception of Ireland, the developed european countries have been growing more slowly than the USA for decades now, and if anything the gap is probably widening. This slowdown trend is most pronounced in Europe's biggest economies (Germany, France, UK) so even if the dirt-poor basketcase former communist countries manage to improve, Europe as a whole will still be heavily weighted down by the slow performance of these major countries.
not to mention China and India.
Unlike Europe, these two countries now have solid growth trends going back for decades, and the trends outpace both the USA and especially Europe. Of course, you have to allow for the fact that both countries are unimaginably poor by Western standards, and their governments are terribly scrwed up, especially in China. In the long run I think we'll see India pull ahead because their government is dramatically less screwed-up than China's is.
The days of the US as the economic superpoer of the wolrd are numbered by just abount any metric you use.
WRT to the EU's relative position, this is absolute fantasy. It appears that Europe's days of being relevant may be numbered. As I pointed out earlier, Ireland is the only "major" (if a country with 60% the population of New York City is "major") developed European country to have an excellent and established growth trend.
WRT to the eastern hemisphere, things may be different. Even if my pessimism about China is unwarranted, it'll still be a couple generations before they can match the West's prosperity. Of course, that'd be a great day if it comes. Personally I think by the end of the decade, there'll be clear signs that India will completely overshadow China as an industrial and technological power. We can only look forward to this day, for it is in developed nations where new technologies are created, medicines discovered, etc.
But looking at everything as a "race for dominance" misses a lot of the point. In general, we all benefit from each others' prosperity. Prosperous people invent and produce more stuff, making us all wealthier.
Re:Are you being sarcastic? (Score:1, Interesting)
a kilometre has 1000 metres which have 100 centimetres
You tell me which seems more intuitive
and if you can reduce the speed of light to an intuitive number then you'd win a nobel prize
Try converting it to your archaic system
As for their reason of creating metric, is was to make a better system that was easier and more logical
Competition vs Cooperation (Score:3, Interesting)
On one hand competition is good and it may happen that it helps further adoption of free software, improvements in both Evolution and Glow and all that. And we hope both remain standards-based and interoperable.
But at this point, we aren't strong enough to compete much, we already have too much duplication of efforts like in the whole KDE vs Gnome mess, and the BSDs vs GNU/Linux vs Hurd one.
Worse yet, he is happy that Sun users get less goodies! This is simply Not Good. Whatever Sun motives may be, this is not a good thing in itself. It would be much better to work with Sun to address its concerns, but then de Icaza already proved he would rather follow his own path, like he already dissociated himself from copyleft and the FSF because he didn't like the focus on ideas over pragmatism.
And perhaps that's nice about Sun doing their own stuff: it's copylefted and they have copyright assignment. Not only Glow may prove a safer choice (legally speaking) than Evolution both to users and developers (if Sun ever frees Java, or makes it run good on free JVM implementations), but Sun is getting used to free software and copyleft. Free Solaris and Java anyone?
Canada's worse (Score:5, Interesting)
When you're buying a house, the property size is measured in metres. However, the interior measurements are all given in square feet.
I know my height in feet and inches, but my driver's license lists it in centimetres. Funny, because I measure my skis in centimetres.
I buy meat in the store by the gram or kilogram, but my microwave asks me how many pounds is it when I want to defrost it. Of course I know my weight in pounds.
Construction materials are measured in feet, while I drive in km/h. I pump litres of gas into my tank, while I purchase hard booze in ounces. But beer, water and soft drinks are sold in millilitres.
I read the outside temperature in celsius, and I set my thermostat in C, yet my oven is set in farenheit. At least, all the recipes I have do (some ovens have both C and F listed).
We're pretty damned confused up here.
Re:The European Union is not "Europe" (Score:5, Interesting)
I wouldnt be suprised if Denmark breaks away too, possibly taking the rest if Scandinavia with it.
Germanic cultures will then find itself isolated with Latin countries to the West, poor ex-communist states to the west, and independant states to the north and south. Cant imagine Germany will hang around when its having to bankroll everyone elses peasant economy.
After that, I think its Britain's turn to invade France. Or maybe Germany's, its hard to keep track these days.
Re:Metric System (Score:0, Interesting)
Win win for MS (Score:3, Interesting)
More Linux developers porting software to Windows = more software for Windows.
At the same time I'm sure MS is not going to arrange things so that more Windows developers writing software = more developers writing software for Linux. Remember Java and MS JVM? This time
And don't forget, Windows comes preinstalled on many x86 hardware. There is no need to install Linux to run some cool Mono app as long as Mono is compatible with
So if things keep as it is the likely net result is the amount of Windows software will grow even faster than the amount of Linux software.
If mono is not compatible with
Lose/lose for MS? Must be drinking Miguel's kool-aid or something.
Re:The money's moving (Score:5, Interesting)
Every netbar I went to (and they're a lot more popular in China than the states) was running Windows. I didn't even see "Red Star Linux" while I was there. Maybe it's more of a government thing or somthing. Makes sense, security wise.
Don't let those articles from a while back about China "adopting Linux" fool you too much regarding the situation on the ground.
The balance could tip (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't ignore the immense coercive power of the US corporate presence around the world. While China is certainly in a position to make up its own mind without major interference, that certainly isn't true of Malaysia, Taiwan or just about any state in Africa or South America. Don't believe for a moment that the US has any intention of letting Third World countries grow their economies to the point where they become serious competition in any way.
The US entertainment industry in concert with Microsoft are already moving to tidy up the First World (the impending FTA in my own country, Australia is just one sad example), and while they don't seriously think they can enforce their will entirely on piratical Asians, they can certainly change their business environment by owning ours.
We are certainly at a crossroads: if the US can enforce its will via specific treaty with poorer nations (as it has already done in several arenas), then Hollywood, the RIAA and Microsoft will be eagerly adding new provisions to the demand letter. I have no hope for Africa or most of South America, but I do hope that the joint project of China Korea and Japan bears fruit and gives hope to their necessarily satellite neighbours. That's really the only hope we have of rolling this Darkness back.
Re:Does it matter? (Score:2, Interesting)
It's the equivalent of decoupling business logic from presentation. Casual users (probably the majority) don't care about the business logic, but they tend to have major infarctions when it comes to changing their precious desktop icons.
I'd rather not see one monopoly exchanged for another, either, but with Linux at least the details exist and are available for me to delve into if I chose to enlighten myself about what's running my PC. The same can't be said for Windows. Perhaps the landscape would change if MS had to compete for market share?
Do not OVERESTIMATE te EU... (Score:5, Interesting)
They recently enlarged their government so much that their effectiveness has been reduced many times. What used to be a small organization that could react fairly well is now a cumbersome organization that spends hours giving each minister his time.
Plus at this time a lot of the newer countries are poor. This puts a lot of load on the EU and will seriously test it.
Unfortunately I think the EU is soon to be bogged down in its own government just like the US is. The issue is worse as they can't even settle on a Constitution that is viable.
As for the article, Linux isn't going to happen until the business community is convinced that the apps are here and will be supported.
10 Gallon Hats (Score:1, Interesting)
For those that are not aware, the US has standardized on the metric system -- a very long time ago, in fact (19th century). The metric system is taught in schools whilst the SAE / avoirdupois system isn't. Ask any kid in the US how many fluid ounces there are to a pint or feet in a mile and 9 times out 10 they'll tell you that they don't know -- and they've never thought about it. We don't measure things in stones, or furlongs, or rods anymore. Ask them how big a liter or a meter are, and most can tell you.
So why do we still use "miles" and "yards", and why you still buy "gallons" of milk and gasoline? Well, the use of miles and yards has stuck largely because there are so many maps and signs made that way and people are used to thinking about larger distances in those terms. In some areas, there are still laws on the books that date back before the metric adoption that use measures of acres, yards, and miles, rather than hectares, meters, and kilometers so the old measures still stand.
In the case of milk, there are dairy compacts and the like that harken back centuries that have all sorts of mandates about how to measure dairy products -- and they aren't metric either.
I know quite a few people that are completely lost when trying to deal with the non-metric measures because they are rarely taught anymore. Which, if you know anything about the USA, means "opportunity". Confusion amongst consumers is rife for exploitation by marketers. Hmmm, how many 12 fl. oz. cans of soda does it take to equal a 2 liter bottle... Anyone? No fair pulling out a calculator...
articles logic is flawed (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Do not underestimate the EU (Score:2, Interesting)
In fact the government itself owns almost half of the debt [treas.gov]! And that doesn't include debt owned by local or state governments
Re:Do not underestimate the EU (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Nope. (Score:4, Interesting)
The huge risk in not migrating is not being able to satisfy your customers while your competitors do.
If your clients decide TCO is compelling, then it doesn't matter what you think - someone will be there to support them, and someone will be there to send them documents in formats that work well for them, or take their data in formats you can't handle, or whatever is relevant to your business.
That's how Windows and Office came to dominate in the first place: Some people saw a benefit, and they got a domino effect from partners, customers etc. that may not have seen a direct benefit, but saw a benefit in interoperating with people who had taken the leap.
Re:Do not underestimate the EU (Score:3, Interesting)
Read out loud. Slowly. NA-TIO-NAL DEBT BUD-GET DE-FI-CIT And you still think the US is such a great economic power?
Too true. But to the rest of the world I say EX-PORT ECO-NO-MIES, TREA-SURY NOTES, UN-EM-PLOY-MENT.
You are not creditors, you are partners! -- Donald Trump
Metric system. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Do not underestimate the EU (Score:2, Interesting)
> will have no way of verifying your name and
> address as they relate to the card's genuine
> holder.
They most certainly do have the means to verify the address of the card holder. It's been a couple of years now since this facility came in. Along with the card number and expiry date the retailer now passes the numeric component of the house number and postcode and the card issuer checks that this is correct.
Any mail order company not using this facility is demented.
However, having run a mail order company for five years, I can say that the single most effective anti-fraud measure is having people with clue taking the orders.
John
Re:The European Union is not "Europe" (Score:2, Interesting)
The US has a high GDP because of the large number of international companies with head offices in the US. If they all went offshore the GDP would plummet.
The US is an international bully. Don't get me wrong; I have met several Americans and in general they are good people. But as a country, you have WMD yourself but heaven forbid if someone else develops them! You have economic clout that is used to benefit the US at the cost of other countries, including third world countries. Studies have already shown that the *only way* Americans can continue their current lifestyle is to keep the third world in poverty. There simply are not enough resources in the world to support that lifestyle if the third world catches up.
Sure, you live in a pretty good country. But don't think that makes you better than the rest of the world. You're not God's chosen people, or at least no more so than the rest of us.
Incidentally, I wonder sometimes when Americans will wake up and realise that you live in a Capitalist society, not a Democracy. Some of the laws over there (the DCMA comes to mind) only benefit the large corporations. Great for their hip pockets, terrible for the people. Some democracy.