Road Marker Marks You

If you could make a reflective road marker (a "road stud", in the jargon) that contained a small solar cell and battery, you would be able to: A) power a LED at night to provide lit lanes, not just reflection; B) monitor for fog or water on the road surface; C) monitor the temperature to detect ice; D) use infrared ranging and embedded cameras to detect and report the license number of anyone speeding on the road; E) All of the above. If the company can make them cheap enough, they'll be everywhere in a few years.

Road studs

[Cruciform]

Those little studs are great. There's some newly paves roads in our area that have long curves with steep dropoffs and the painted lines really don't show up well on rainy nights.

They placed the road studs on one of these roads and they practically glow compared to the paint. If the self-illuminating kind become readily available and easily placed it would be great for areas that see a lot of inclement weather.

Might cut down on the number of oncoming cars that drift into my lane on during the commute home as well. Now if we could just jam cell phone use in cars.

What would be very cool

[obfuscated]

is if the government started putting leds embedded into the pavement and they could send you messages (eg. accident up ahead, work zone, speed limit changed to XXmph, etc) to you while you're driving having the message pace with your car.

Also, you could make lanes that are dynamic during the day and night. (They already have those with changing street signs).

Real time stopping distance approxomations (are you following too close?). Lane change "handoffs" (the road infront of you goes orange because someone is turning into that lane.)

It's would be the same technology used for those rotating led clocks.

Of course, it'll all be moot when people finally let computers do the driving for them.

Probably have a high repair rate

[Anonymous Coward]

1.) Sensor in car detects distinctive LED light
2.) Triggers High power magnetron, under car chasis
3.) Sensor fries

Later:
1.) First person busted with Sensor killer makes National news
2.) Overseas companies start producing them by the thousands (ala Cell phone jammers)
3.) Sensor killing problem becomes national and widespread.

I've thought about this...

[FlyingOrca]

...ever since I saw embedded reflectors in the UK. Problem is, where I live, we get large amounts of snow and ice building up on the roads. Sometimes when I'm driving on the highway, my mind will turn to the notion of holographic lane markers... or some equivalent system that would interact with the windshield of the car to visibly plot lanes etc... How about it, physicists of /.? Any brilliant ideas?

similar idea

[for_usenet]

In a pretty recent issue of Spectrum (the IEEE "trade" mag), there was a piece on a sensor network being used on an island off Massachusetts to study birds that lived on an island in that region.

The sensor were about the size of golf balls, and had sensors for info like temperature, humidity, etc., were battery powered, and capable of creating their own network along which they could relay info.

Here, sounds like they're trading size for range of functions - but that's to be expected. Sensors, sensors, everywhere, and where does all that info go ...

Speed enforcement

[b0s0z0ku]

The markers will probably be useful for detecting fog and leaving a light trail after cars. Speed cameras are best placed on vertical structures where the lens is less likely to get covered with ice/snow/road grime/spray paint and where the lens is also best positioned to view license plates. Besides, we'll probably all go to RFIDs in cars within a few years :) Automated enforcement of speed laws is actually illlegal in many jurisdictions like NJ and PA (in PA local cops aren't even allowed to use RADAR or laser). Something about the right to face your accuser...

-b0s0z0ku

Bott's Dots (Re:"Road Marker")

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the original name for them is "Bott's Dots" after a guy named Mr. Bott who worked for CalTrans (California State Road Agency) way back in the day. I read awhile back that the state of California was actually fazing them out for state maintained roads and highways in favor of divots and shoulder grating (so it makes that nasty sound when you drift over at high speeds).

In deference to Mr. Bott, their inventor, we should refer to these things as "Bott's Dots". Isn't credit what we belive in in the open source community?

-Mr. Bott's heir

Insurance go down??

[Anonymous Coward]

"We all break the law regarding speeding," Mr. Kerridge said. "The system may leave a bad taste in motorists' mouths at the beginning. But when their insurance starts going down and stolen vehicles start getting recovered, the benefits will overcome that."

My insurance has never gone down with the same company here in CA. I have to switch providers for a $100 break, then it goes up, up, then I have to switch again. Perfect record.

Re:Just make them cheap enough?

[Mithrandir]

Oh, so you mean like the average aussie road then. Nothing unusual about that.... In fact, 1.5 lanes is rather generous. Most roads here outside of the main cities tend to be around 1 lane wide with half lane of dirt either side of it. Somewhat like this:

The Alpine Way 1 [vlc.com.au] and The Alpine Way 2 [vlc.com.au] in the Snowy Mountains area or somewhere near Mt Isa [vlc.com.au]

Re:Just make them cheap enough?

[swordboy]

We really don't need these for high-traffic areas. Ya' see, most cars these days are just huge rolling sensors with wheels and seats. Add bluetooth or wifi and allow the cars to communicate with a centralized data-acquisition system and you've got massive amounts of good, useful data. ABS kicking in on multiple cars in the same area? Warn other drivers of slick conditions (GPS sensor required). Air-bag deployed? Warn other drivers of potential debris/flotsam. Speedo registering well under the limit for all cars? Warn other drivers of congestion.

But I'm sure that some idiot with a patent will keep this from being deployed on a wide scale for decades to come, causing unnecessary deaths, injuries or otherwise reducing quality of life for all drivers.

Re:Insurance go down??

[gcaseye6677]

when their insurance starts going down

Yea, that'll happen. I'm sure I'm not the only one willing to bet my life savings that this type of thing will only raise rates.

Runway lights

[runlvl0]

Is for them to flash in sequence, so you see little ribbons of light flowing down the freeway. Trouble is, for it to look interesting, the lights would have to appear to be moving at about three to four times the speed limit. Which would encourage a certain class of Stupid Person to try and keep up with them.

Actually, that's a very clever thought: if they could be set to sequence at exactly the speed limit, they'd be a great 'heads-up' speed (and speed limit) indicator - "if you're passing the little flashing lights, you're speeding."

There are some of these on my route to college

[spamtastic2]

I don't think theyre made by the same company, but the ones on the road from Eckington to Chesterfield in the UK look like ordinary cats eye road studs, but contained within each one is a small rechargable battery, a solar cell, a few LED's, and a microchip pic microcontroller. As you approach them at night, once they detect a small ammount of light from your headlamps, they light up pretty bright, and continue to shine for a few seconds after you have passed. They look pretty spooky when you look in the rear view mirror and see them still flickering away (they don't light up constant but instead flash quite rapidly like the LED puch bike lamps). I believe the ones on the test site on this road were developed by an ex fireman.

What would NOT be very cool

[Too Much Noise]

is having all sorts of commercials follwing you around on the road.

I guess the better option would still be to have the messages sent by wifi to the car's computer and displayed on its screen, so you can read them easily. Reading stuff off the pavement while driving is not exactly convenient.

Interesting point though. It will probably happen, too (in one form or another), but not very soon.

Re:Speed enforcement

[Desert Raven]

(in PA local cops aren't even allowed to use RADAR or laser).

True

Something about the right to face your accuser...

Not true. It's an old issue that involved poorly trained municipal officers, corrupt small departments and a desire to keep the really nifty things in the hands of the State police. The first two are not much of an issue anymore, since the state now controls training of *all* police officers, and oversight of municipal governments is now pretty tight. The last one still holds though. The State troopers like their exclusive use of radar.

It doesn't really hinder the municipal cops much though. As long as it doesn't emit a doppler signal or use rangefinding, it's OK for use (VASCAR, speed tapes, stopwatch, etc.)

Hmm what about road repairs?

[funaho]

I can imagine this will make road repairs a real joy, because now you have to *carefully* pry out all these electronic studs before you can repave (or even just reseal) the road surface.

Re:Don't ticket me - control my car's max speed

[87C751]

It would seem that you are unfamiliar with the revenue enhancement aspect of speed enforcement. Speed limits are only peripherally about safety. In many (most?) small towns, speeding fines are a significant portion of the municipal revenue stream. Of course, they won't publicly admit this in so many words, but a proposal to implement red-light cameras in Ohio was withdrawn after a lawmaker proposed warning signs and a first-offense-free policy. Both the camera company and the town involved complained that that plan would reduce revenue too much, prompting the legislator to ask "Is this a bill about safety or a bill about revenue?"

Re:Shades of Orwell

[kabocox]

Because driving slower kills fewer pedestrians

Will these things light the interstate up red if a pedestrain is walking there?

Those pedestrians shouldn't be walking along the interstate! That is just asking for a Darwin award. I know it would suck if you had a flat or ran out of gas, but really you shouldn't walk on the shoulder of the interstate. You should be off the road entirely if you ever need to walk there.

Enforcing the speed limit...

[LesPaul75]

You know, there's an ironic thing about the speed limit. I don't think that police really want to strictly enforce it. If they did, what would happen? There would be a tremendous flood of tickets issued at first... There would be serious outcry from the majority of people who feel the limit is too low... They would probably raise it slightly, but not enough to really matter...

It's just like the weekly poker night that I host. I tell people: "Show up no later than 8:00, or cards will be dealt and your hands will be folded." Now, we don't really enforce that rule, but there has to be some rule in place, just because, otherwise, if I said, "Show up anytime from 7:00 to 9:00," then the first guy would show up at 9:30, and the game would start sometime around midnight.

There has to be some speed limit, but strict enforcement just isn't good for anyone -- especially the police.

Why not use an RFID tag in the licence plate

[willy_me]

If you want to identify who's driving where. Ignoring the obvious privacy concerns, it's not that bad an idea. For example, my uncle got hit biking by a hit-and-run. Shattered pelvis - never able to bike again. At least with RFID tags in the license plates that would have been able to track down the truck that hit him.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Better try a pickaxe

[zakezuke]

Streetdot epoxy is among the strongest glues I know of for good reason. They are practicaly impossible to remove without removing a large segemnt of asphalt. I've tried collecting street dots, and the only way to do it is with a pickaxe... and you try going in the street with a pickaxe and playing a game of collect the dots.

Re:What would be very cool

[lpangelrob2]

Here's a very direct link to Northwest Indiana's current solution, which doesn't incorporate all you asked for but does show everything I need and want :-). I do like your ideas, though.

Click me! [indot.org]

Re:Just make them cheap enough?

[jdray]

Great, then someone will come up with a hack that spoofs the receivers, creating "traffic jams" on deserted roads, "icy conditions" in the desert and many other, more nefarious things.

Not that I'm necessarily advocating "Big Brother"-type, camera-on-every-lightpost monitoring, but it would be foolish to rely on people correctly reporting what their vehicle is doing at all times.

Re:Aqua-planing ?

[arivanov]

I do not think you know what are you talking about. I have hit a stream running across a road in a tropical rainstorm which was just about quarter of an inch deap at 32 mph. Was more then enough for the car to completely lose grip. There was an 800m sheer cliff going down into the Atlantic on the left and 800m sheer cliff going up towards Cumbre Viejo on the right.The next 2 seconds I was busy avoiding either one of these and bringing back the car under control. Barely avoided either at least 3 times each. And believe me if you have ever aquaplaned you would not have ever tried to joke about it.

I'm being repressed

[Anonymous Coward]

I am reposting this, within 30 min. of it's previous post by another AC it got modded down. Since it is obviously insightfull and ontopic I can only conclude either massive idiocy on the part of modders or deliberate supression.

TOP SECRET FACT:Most modern cars have tracking transponders!

Spy transmission chips embedded in tires that can be read REMOTELY while driving.

A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFid chips embedded in the tire).

Yup. My brother works on them.

Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all "FastPass" "SpeedPass" technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people.

Its kind of like FBI "Taggants" in fertilizer and "Taggants" in Gasoline and Bullets, and Blackpowder. But these car tire transponder Ids are meant to actively track and trace movement of your car.

Taggant research papers :
http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/ ~ota/disk3/1980/8017/801705.PDF
(remove spaces in url from slashcode if needed)

I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to 'grain of rice' pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].

It is for QA and to prevent fraud and "car theft", but the US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border. The customs service and FBI do not yet talk about this, and are starting using it soon.

Photos of chips before molded into tires:

http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:TAQIKjBI01g C: www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html

(slashdot ruins links, so you will have to remove the ASCII space it insertess usually into the url above to get to the shocking info and photos on the enbedded LOGI 160 chips that the us gov scans when you cross mexican and canadian borders.)

You never heard of it either because nobody moderates on slashdot anymore and this is probably +0 still. It has also never appeared in print before and is very secret.

Californias Fastpass is being upgraded to scan ALL responding car tires in future years upcoming. I-75 may get them next in rural funnel points in Ohio.

http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html

but the fact is... YOU PROBABLY ALREADY HAVE A RADIO TRANSPONDER not counting your digital cell phone which is routinely silently pulsed in CA bay area each rush hour morning unless turned off (consult Wired Magazine Expose article). Those data point pulses are used by NSA on occasions.

The us FBI with NRO/NSA blessings, has requested us gov make this tire scanning information as secret as the information regarding all us inkjet printers sold in usa in the last 3 years using "yellow" GUID barcode under dark ink regions to serialize printouts to thwart counterfeiting of 20 dollar bills. (30 to 40 percent of ALL California counterfeiting is done using cheap Epson inkjet printers, most purchased with credit cards foolishly). Luckily court dockets divulge the existence of the Epson serial numbers on your printouts... but nobody except

Ain't gonna happen

[Lord Kano]

D) use infrared ranging and embedded cameras to detect and report the license number of anyone speeding on the road;

States rely too much upon the fines for speeding. They have optimized their income with the current system. If speed detection was made 100% reliable, no one would do it and the states wouldn't make any money off of it.

This is a part of the reason why interlock devices aren't placed on all cars at the factory. Everyone hates "drunk driving", but they make so much money off of it that they don't want it to completely stop.

LK

Another speed/ticket issue

[blueZ3]

Something that's prety much completely overlooked in these discussions of "auto ticketing for over the limit" is that setting one speed limit for all vehicles ignores the differences between vehicles that are based on physics and manufacturing quality.

In my Z3, I can (safely) take corners at speeds far in excess of the posted "recommended" limits. Indeed, I frequently don't actually need to slow down for the corners. That's because the car's center of gravity is extremely low, the wide tires provide huge contact patches, and the car is almost perfectly balanced (50/50 front/rear). Add to the mix the outstanding OEM suspension, and it is completely safe to take the corner above the recommended speed.

In my sisters Ford Excursion, however, a speed below the posted recommended limit is necessary to keep the behemoth between the lines. It has a high center of gravity, a terrible contact patch/weight ratio, and bad front/rear balance. Plus, being made by Ford, the suspension feels like a pair of overstretched rubber bands. The posted recommended limit is too high for that thing.

Impossible, but I'd like to see speed limits take into account the physics that control how safe a vehicle is at speed. Much more frightening to me than a sports car travelling at 100 mph (not me :-> ) is the overloaded minivan going 85.

That'll probably arrive right after the IQ requirement for driver's licenses.

Dan D

Re:Just make them cheap enough?

[Some_Llama]

Looking at those roads gave me flashbacks to "The Road Warrior".

road studs do not improve safety?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never liked reflective road studs. It seems to me that if you can't see the road far enough ahead to follow it, the proper response is to slow down until you can. Lighting the road doesn't help you see what's ON the road. Encouraging people to drive faster when visibility is poor seems like a bad idea.

I don't have any statistics to back that up. This story inspired me to spend a good ten minutes searching google, and I can't find any statistical evidence as to the efficacy of road studs in increasing road safety. Since I *have* found all kinds of people, governments, and manufacturers praising the idea, the absence of any evidence that it's any good leads me to suspect that my initial reaction is correct: Road studs are a safety hazard.

If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please enlighten me.

Re:We've got them in scotland

[FlyingOrca]

It's not so much the ploughs I'm worried about, it's the fact that our roads are covered with snow and ice before and after ploughing - i.e., for most of the winter. Anything embedded would disappear exactly when most needed - low visibility due to snow & night, snow covering existing lane markers.

Seriously, it's a problem. We just had the Trans-Canada Highway closed for a couple of days due to heavy snow. Increased lane visibility would eliminate one part of the problem. Cheers!

Re:One problem:

[bferrell]

Seems the brits have taken the placed of the soviets
in taking credit for things:

http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/bottsdots .a sp

Already got them

[David Horn]

We've already got these in the UK - some roads have cat's eyes with LEDs in them and they're great. It makes driving so much easier.

However, they do have the side effect of making drivers go "Ooh! Glowy cat's eyes!" and switch off their headlights to see them better... hence, they're statistically rather dangerous!

Re:Oh shit

[John Hurliman]

On the other hand, since this will improve law enforcement's ability to catch speeders, and speeding tickets is one of the yardsticks for insurance costs, if you don't get any tickets you might see rates drop (slightly). Also any technology that improves traffic safety in general should have a long-term positive effect on insurance rates.

F)

[Jo3sh]

They could also be RADAR transcievers for automatic navigation systems in cars and trucks.

The vehicle could send a ping which includes information about its destination or path, and the marker could send back a ping which contains information about upcoming hazards, speed limit changes, construction zones, road conditions, etc.

Thus the road edges and distinctions between lanes can be discerned by the nav system by simple ranging, and additional info can be trasmitted by the road itself to the cars using it.

Re:Not Without Benefits

[jburroug]

Speaking for myself I'd that the reason why so many slashdotters are wary of such technologies is because we know technology well enough to know that it's not a panacea to all (or really any) social problems and we understand the potential for abuse that comes with any complex, secretive technology controlled by a group or agency that operate de facto without public oversight/control. We're also, as a group, less prone to take sweeping promises about what a new technology can and will do for us at face value mostly because we've heard so many that proved to be damn lies when the dust settled: "Face recognition cameras will only spot terrorists!"; "The new bomb scanners will make air travel safer and more convientent, and no false positives!"; "Peoplesoft is an easy to use and cost effective solution to your HR needs"; "The speed sensors are for your own protection citizen" etc...

Also, speficically regard objections to automated traffic enforcement scams such as this a lot of object because we know that the stated objective, "increased safety", and promised benefits, "lower insurance rates" are total bullshit. If increased road safety were the goal then stealth enforcement wouldn't be seen as a benefit, bright red flags and flashing lights would mark the intersections dangergous enough to warrant traffic spy-cams and people would slow down, thus saving lives. That and having traffic engineers set the speed limit to a speed that the road can safely handle, or better yet pump the money being tossed into spy-cams into smart roads with adaptive speed limits. So yeah I'm afriad of any revenue generating, control increasing technology marketed as a safety device.

Re:road studs do not improve safety?

[Anonymous Coward]

"There's not much debate as to whether the dots increase safety or not"

Yeah, that's exactly why I want to see some evidence before I believe that they do.

Since they've been around for so long, someone must by now have gathered some data that shows what effect they have. I found only one reference to one study of one particular road on which they apparently did help, but even for that one road they didn't give much data. I found one large study of accident data for different types of roads, but its authors were too intent on showing that roads where traffic goes faster have more accidents to consider much else. The only potentially relevant thing they had to say was that the clarity of road markings is much less important than other factors such as traffic speed, number of sharp curves, and intersections.

It's possible that the only people who drive too fast at night in the rain are going to do it no matter what the road looks like... in which case we might as well help them stay on the road. But really, there is so much discussion of this subject in official highway improvement proposals and the like that I find the absence of any statistical evidence rather conspicuous.

Re:Article Text

[winwar]

True. But what exactly do safe driving discounts and being a safe driver have in common? Generally these discounts mean you have no tickets or accidents. But speeding is not very useful in determining safety. At fault accidents, probably, other moving violations, probably. After all, how many people don't speed? Probably as many as get caught speeding, if that :)

For instance, I have a speeding ticket. The second in 17 years of driving. According to insurance companies, I am suddenly a more dangerous driver, more likely to be in accidents. But my driving ability hasn't changed. Sure, they may be able to lump me in a different category, but that does not mean their model is correct. It's just that the only data they have to predict whether people MIGHT cause future accidents is tickets, so they use it and try to justify it. Garbage in, garbage out.

If they really were concerned about safety, they would only give discounts to people who took real driving courses. Courses that teach you how to control your car. But then they might find that those people got tickets at a similar rate as other drivers, maybe even got into just as many accidents. Would kind of destroy their system, wouldn't it? After all, what is the justification for not giving discounts for people who successfully complete intensive driving courses, regardless of their records? That perhaps our system and consequences are much more random than we would like to admit? And there is not a good and equitable way to predict these outcomes?

Re:Insurance go down??

[SacredNaCl]

Want to lower insurance rates? It's easy: Make fragile painted bumpers illegal.

It's not just bumpers that need to be fixed, a lot of cars now have an external spare tire on the rear that is positioned so that if you get into an accident with them with a vehicle taller than say a Geo Metro - you are not only going to impact the bumper but the spare tire - which in turn will impact the rear glass, 3rd light, frame for rear glass. Since that piece is usually one section, you end up not only having to replace the bumper, but the entire rear door assembly + glass + electronics (like wipers).

The accident that was $500 or less is now closer to $3,000-3,500 on a car like that.

Re:Just make them cheap enough?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Animals ranging in size from squirrels to bears will camp in the road with impunity. Beeping will not help. Creeping forward will not help. This is why gun racks for trucks were invented.

If you're talking about the ones in the window: They were actually invented to deal with the concealed carry laws in certain states.

If you want to carry a gun in a car it has to be visible from the outside. Otherwise it's a "concealed weapon" because it's "concealed by the car". Thus the gun rack across the back window, where the guns are plainly visible.

(Don't tread on me. And if you're a peredator don't eat my livestock - or try to stick up my car. B-) )

By the way: At least one southwestern state had a law that required any gun carried in the car to be loaded. That's so the car's occupants can use the gun to prevent the theft of the gun by escaping prisoners and the like, in the regions where the nearest telephone or cop might be several hour's drive away.

insurance is like gambling in reverse

[nounderscores]

The company bets that you are young and strong and that nothing is ever going to happen to you.

You bet you are going to die tomorrow, and that your babies need some dollars quick.

Once you pass a certain amount of time with the insurance company without anything bad happening to you, they start winning.

Solution:
1) take out insurance
2) OW OW OW OW!
3) profit!

Re:Insurance go down??

[sjames]

There have been a number of improvements, but also a lot of moving backwards.

Newer cars do a lot to protect the passenger compartment in an accident, as it should be. However, I saw tests of SUVs backing into those concrete posts in parking lots at less than 5 MPH and doing $1500 worth of damage to themselves (commonly, the rear windshield shatters). That's inexcusable, especially in a so called utility vehicle.

Of course, the worst I ever saw was a new Corvette with the entire body shattered after being hit by a Honda. Whatever damage the Honda may have had wasn't apparent while driving past. Thinking about the increadible bill the Honda's driver was about to recieve, I had to wonder if perhaps we should consider a legal duty to have a reasonably durable car. If someone taps your rear bumper and your $60,000 car goes to pieces, that's YOUR fault (and stupidity for buying such junk), not theirs.

Crumple zones are necessary, but they shouldn't even think of crumpling in a <20 MPH accident.