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Toys Technology

Las Vegas Monorail Finally Ready To Open 469

doormat writes "The Las Vegas monorail is finally set to open to the public on July 15th! The project has had some problems - it was originally scheduled to open in March. The first part of the monorail, which uses Bombardier M-VI train vehicles, 'a derivative of the famous Walt Disney World Mark VI trains', is 4 miles long and connects several casinos on the east side of the Las Vegas Strip (see map, QT video), as well as the Las Vegas Convention Center (Home to CES, NAB, Networld+Interop and what was Comdex). Future phases seek to expand the monorail to downtown to the North, the west side of the strip, and eventually the University and the airport (which the taxicab and limo groups fight tooth and nail). I swear it's the strip's only choice... throw up your hands and raise your voice! Monorail, Monorail, Monorail! Mono... D'oh!"
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Las Vegas Monorail Finally Ready To Open

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  • by spacerodent ( 790183 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @12:35AM (#9578509)
    I've always wondered why the US hasn't built up their mass transit abilities on the national level. We have subways in various towns but none of them link together and we don't have any of the long rail lines like they do in Germany or Japan. I also feel safe in saying the rail road is pretty shitty in compairson to other countries. I wonder if this is because as Americans we demand the right and excuse to use cars or if we have no other option right now.
  • by Mycroft_VIII ( 572950 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @12:44AM (#9578552) Journal
    It's simple. The US is phyiscally to big for this sort of thing to go nation wide. Now mind you they could do a couple or so on each coast. And just maybee somthing connecting a city or two in texas through Kansas city to St. Louis to Chicago, but even that may be stretching it.
    Look at it as if each US state where a single european country, then make a comparison.

    Mycroft
  • Re:Yipee!!!!! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by faedle ( 114018 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @12:47AM (#9578565) Homepage Journal
    Much like BART had all kinds of computer problems when it first went online. These things were not totally unanticipated. This is "new" tech, in the sense that Las Vegas Monorail will be the first mass-transit application of "driverless" rail systems anywhere in the United States (BART comes close, but somebody still pushes the "close door" button).

    Yes, it's "old" 70's (well, really, 50's, as it differs very little from the original Alweg designs that run on Seattle and Anaheim trackage) technology. However, buses are, what, 30's technology? Light rail vehicles, also, are nothing more than the modern version of the 1910's streetcars.

    In transit systems, very little changes.. because it dosen't have to. The fundamental job of getting people from one place to another across town is a simple one: it dosen't need maglev. The physics of rubber tires on a concrete "roadway" are well understood. Construction techniques required to build the Las Vegas Monorail are essentially no different than what was needed to build I-215: once you know how to pour concrete, it doesn't matter if you're building a highway for cars or a guideway for a monorail.

    Personally, I can't wait. Monorail technology is a good transit solution: clean and quiet, with the potential to be cheap and easily maintained. Hopefully, Las Vegas Monorail will prove out as good as the monorail enthusiasts (like myself) have been saying it will.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 01, 2004 @12:47AM (#9578567)
    It's interesting that the taxi cab and limousine services are fighting the monorail tooth and nail.


    When I went to Florida, I had to catch a plane from Orlando airport, so I caught a bus to 'airport boulevard' - having been told it was near the airport. It was in the middle of nowhere and there was no chance of hailing a cab (even if as a poor student, I could have afforded one), so I walked for 90 minutes in the midday sun until I got to my flight - with 15 minutes to spare.


    I had been told I was on the right bus, but there didn't seem to be a bus stop in the entire airport. I was completely incredulous. Is this the reason why?


    So much for the free market and consumer choice.

  • Useless (Score:5, Interesting)

    by DNS-and-BIND ( 461968 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @12:48AM (#9578573) Homepage
    Like most public transportation projects I've been on, this one is pretty useless. You can't go from the airport to the hotel...what's the point? The system is similarly useless to anyone who actually *lives* in Vegas. Los Angeles authorities thought it would be a good idea to build some trains...they don't go anywhere that you'd ever want to go. It doesn't connect to the airport because the taxicab union lobbied against it. The Houston rail "system" is similarly pointless. Atlanta's isn't bad, mostly because union opposition was overcome and it actually connects to the airport.
  • by dieman ( 4814 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @12:49AM (#9578576) Homepage
    Yeah, I'm thinking about moving the .mov file. :)

    Apache::Gallery does caching, so really my box isn't doing too bad. Its all about the B/W though, but my webserver is configured as QBSS queuing on the link -- it should be the 'last' packets out on the pipe.
  • Not that uncommon (Score:4, Interesting)

    by gotr00t ( 563828 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @01:18AM (#9578687) Journal
    The BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) system in the SF/Bay Area costs just about the same to use, the only difference is that its not a flat rate, but rather, a calculated fare from station to station, averaging around $3 a ride, one way. The discounts if bought in bulk are minimal (only $4 savings when $60 worth of fare is bought), and I don't think there is an "all day pass" or anything of that sort.

    I think it goes to show that when you think of this kind of rapid transit system, don't think "bus fare," which is usually cheaper. It may also be because these systems are not subsidized by local or state authorities, forcing them to charge higher fare. (though I'm not sure if this is true in either of these cases)

  • Re:Yipee!!!!! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by faedle ( 114018 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @01:21AM (#9578699) Homepage Journal
    On BART, the "driver" does nothing more than push a "close door" button. They are not in control of the train, except when the automation system fails (which when I worked there in the 80's was "often"). However, part of BART's design was to have a 100% automated system. The "driver" is there solely because of a concession to the transit operator's unions. 99% of the time, the BART operator is just passively sitting in his chair.. bored out of his tiny little mind.

    SFO Airport SkyTrain is not, technically, a "mass transit" system, it is an airport peoplemover. Many airport peoplemovers are "driverless", including Denver's. I was speaking strictly of mass transit systems.

    Docklands Light Rail isn't in the US. At least, last time I checked England was still part of the United Kingdom. Has something changed?
  • Re:Yipee!!!!! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by faedle ( 114018 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @01:30AM (#9578735) Homepage Journal
    Dunno. Considering that BART was the first fully automated passenger rail system in the world, I guess Europe is stll learning from the US.

    "Driverless" is an important test concept on the Las Vegas Monorail not because it couldn't "theoretically" be done in the US (many systems, like SF-MUNI, BART, the Chicago "El", and the LA Metro Red Line are fully or partially automated). Questions of liability prevent many systems from operating "driverless." Concerns of organized labor (this was BART's problem) prevented other systems from running "driverless."

    The technology has existed for 30 years (see BART). Because LV Monorail was largely privately funded, they got to dictate terms a lot more than a lot of transit agencies get to.
  • Several Responses (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Aidtopia ( 667351 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @01:34AM (#9578751) Homepage Journal

    Responses to several comments here:

    Monorail "track" is a lot more expensive to build per foot than light rail. That's the main reason Disney hasn't built any new monorail for a while, even when they moved all the parking a couple blocks away from the Anaheim park entrance.

    There's no good way to evacuate an elevated monorail train in an emergency. Somewhere on the net I've read a copy of the procedures for the WDW monorail, which involves helping passengers slide down the curved windshield so they can walk along the beam to the nearest station. Yeah, right.

    Say all you want about the lightrail system Los Angeles built. Fact is, it's far more popular than ever anticipated. Yeah, it goes through some pretty scary neighborhoods. But the point is to make it possible for people who live there to get into downtown where the jobs are. It's worked pretty well. And the Metrolink extensions do take some of the commuter burden off the Orange County to LA freeways.

  • Why? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by TheOnlyCoolTim ( 264997 ) <tim.bolbrockNO@SPAMverizon.net> on Thursday July 01, 2004 @01:40AM (#9578767)
    Does anyone know if a monorail actually has any advantages over regular two rail operation and under what situations?

    Tim
  • Re:Yipee!!!!! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Hans Lehmann ( 571625 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @01:40AM (#9578771)
    This is "new" tech, in the sense that Las Vegas Monorail will be the first mass-transit application of "driverless" rail systems anywhere in the United States (BART comes close, but somebody still pushes the "close door" button).

    Not exactly a rail system, but the PRT [wvu.edu] that services WVU in Morgantown, WV., has been running for about 30 years now. Driverless, electrically driven cars with rubber tires on a concrete track, powered from a 3rd rail. The tracks are steam-heated in winter. It was a pork-barrel Rockefeller project from day one, and most likely sucks up great piles of federal funds to this day. Being prone to breakdowns, the University still had to keep buses & drivers on constant standby to shuttle students between the two spread-out campuses.

    I remember news stories when I was attending college there in the late 70's about how stray dogs would occasionaly manage to get onto the track. The PRT cars, being computer controlled, would soon overtake and squish the pooches without even slowing down, while the passengers watched the whole thing, unable to do anything about it.

  • I'll add a review (Score:3, Interesting)

    by snooo53 ( 663796 ) * on Thursday July 01, 2004 @01:55AM (#9578811) Journal
    First let me start of by saying, I love the idea of public transportation, and that this was a great *idea* Unfortunately this light rail line is wrought with major problems in its implementation.

    -First of all, the tracks are laid right into the street. Not only has it been causing massive traffic congestion but often times the train itself has to wait for traffic lights! They should have elevated it or buried it.

    -Stations: There are WAY too many stations. Obviously there was some lobbying going on by the downtown businesses because there is a freaking stop every 2 blocks!! It is literally faster to walk. The NYC subway stops are a more sensible 10 blocks or more away from each other for the most part.

    -Furthermore, most of these stations are OUTDOORS with NO ENCLOSED SPACE. Let me remind you this is a state with 6 months of winter, and subzero temperatures are very common. And none of them match up with the skyway system here (an excellent way to get around in the winter btw).

    -It doesn't connect to anything important...yet. They are working on the connections to the airport and the Mall of America, but those will not be done until Dec. 04.

    That 96000 total is extremely deceptive in that after the weekend when it was no longer FREE, the attendance dropped like a rock. The peak attendance on these trains was something like 14 people at a time. On a monday morning during rush hour. Not suprising considering how inefficient they are. The bus system is much the same here.

    My hope is that they take this stretch of the line as a lesson in what not to do, and instead try to model it off of other major cities with successful public transit.
  • by Zorilla ( 791636 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @02:01AM (#9578820)
    I live in rural Japan. People here are almost as dependent on cars as Americans are. Cars on the local market aren't cheap, either (but are cheap as hell if you can buy a used one from a US servicemember, my '96 Toyota in excellent condition cost $2000). Probably half of the cars here are 3-cylinder because the taxes on them aren't nearly as steep as something larger. Only difference in the roads are that they accomodate for bike riders and pedestrians in the form of steep curbs, barriers (like you might see on bridges in the US, only on level roads), and well marked crosswalks.

    If you're talking about going long distances though, I believe the toll roads are actually more expensive than a train trip, which is quite expensive itself.
  • by tlainevool ( 793171 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @02:06AM (#9578830) Homepage
    "The US is phyiscally to big for this sort of thing to go nation wide."


    I don't thing so. Europe is 3,837,000 Sq. Miles and the US is 3,537,438 Sq. Miles. Europe has a good continent-wide train system. Its just the love of cars that keeps trains from not working in the US.
  • by dieman ( 4814 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @02:13AM (#9578849) Homepage
    The state of minnesota spent $100 million on capitol costs. The *rest* of the funding was provided by the federal government.

    http://www.startribune.com/stories/462/4826639.h tm l

    Now the operating costs are far differen't -- I'll admit.

    It wasn't money avaliable for a stadium or other costs.

    We have insufficient highway infrastructure. Take a look at highway 252 sometime. Anoka County has one of the worst commutes in the nation and the region.

  • by DNS-and-BIND ( 461968 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @03:06AM (#9579086) Homepage
    A heavily urbanized, dense urban area will always benefit. New York City is very unlike most of America, but I don't expect New Yorkers to believe that. Here in "flyover territory", as you call it, things are different. Who the heck takes taxis, anyway? The cities I've lived in, you can stand on the street for an hour and not see a single taxi.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday July 01, 2004 @03:26AM (#9579180)
    Yes... AFAIK he was impressed by how well the autobahn stood up to bombing during the war, and figured the US could use something like that.
  • Re:Not that uncommon (Score:2, Interesting)

    by k8to ( 9046 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @06:05AM (#9579758) Homepage
    The BART has not offered unlimited use fares within the last several decades. There _are_ deals which include ulimited city transit and a certain amount of BART usage included. Typically BART Plus is 30 in BART ridership (about 10 trips) and uliminted MUNI.

  • by foniksonik ( 573572 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @07:06AM (#9579909) Homepage Journal
    Fuck the taxis... the limos.... bring on mass transit...What's the Problem? Oh no you have competition? Let people make their own decision about how they can best get to their destination.

    Mass Transit cannot and will not solve all transportation problems. On the other hand it will allow visitors and locals to have a choice of transportation.

    Again if your business can't survive a tech revolution... your business is not fit to survive..... simple as that.
  • Re:Yipee!!!!! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by achaudhary ( 461062 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @09:27AM (#9580588)
    Though it is not entirely new in North America: Vancouver's (British Columbia) SkyTrain system uses similar Bombardier technology and is the backbone of their transit system. Also, in New York City, both Newark and Kennedy airports (small towns in themselves) have Bombardier systems connecting the terminals to each other and to regional rail networks a few miles away from the airports.
  • by David Greene ( 463 ) on Thursday July 01, 2004 @01:45PM (#9583634)
    Land would also have to get a lot more expensive as well. Right now, it's very cheap for Wal*Mart to build a huge, single-floor store, with a huge flat parking lot. All of those huge stores with huge parking lots, mean that you have to walk a long ways if you want to visit multiple stores.
    I am currently working on a proposal in Minnesota known as the Land Value Tax. The idea is to tax commercial and indusrtial land at a higher rate than the building. This encourages more efficient use of the land, fewer parking lots and abandoned buildings, etc. In Harrisburg, PA, the number of vacant buildings went from ~5,000 to about 400 after a similar bill was passed. This has been done and it's worked very well. Hopefully it will gain wider adoption.

Understanding is always the understanding of a smaller problem in relation to a bigger problem. -- P.D. Ouspensky

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