Microsoft Responds to IE Criticism

darthcamaro writes "Looks like there was an online free-for-all on Microsoft's chat servers yesterday with Internet Explorer engineers. Several interesting things come out in the story including the fact that the IE big wig thinks that all of his engineers should have other browsers installed to see what they can do and, catch this...he thinks they're the underdog. 'I've worked at Microsoft for 14 years and I have always felt like the underdog,' said Hachamovitch. 'Maybe the road behind us looks easy, but at the time going it wasn't. I welcome the feedback today. Getting informed is the only way I know to get better. The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned.'" Reader nkodengar notes that "Microsoft has posted an article on MSDN listing everything that will be affected by the the updates to Internet Explorer in Service Pack 2. This will be particularly important to developers who use ActiveX controls, pop-up windows and file download counters in their websites..."

Microsoft are lying to us

[Real Troll Talk]

"People choose," replied Hachamovitch (IE lead engineer). "Hundreds of millions of people actively use Windows and they get to choose. Nothing in Windows as it ships keeps them from downloading other software that extends their browsing experience (e.g. the Google or Ebay toolbars) or changes it (e.g. an alternative browser)."

No they don't. Maybe I do, but I'm a computer expert.

My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use. Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".

There's a reason AOL is still popular with 20+ million people -- because it's easy and most computer users are idiots when it comes to technical knowledge/know-how.

I find Microsoft guility of contempt -- contempt of not upgrading their browser. They kept quoting x-million users but then saying they had a choice. No they didn't. They used what popped up when they clicked on a Web address somewhere on their computer, and they've used that default browser from Day fucking One.

Microsoft is going to be looking at major lawsuits if they don't immediately push this RC-2/SP-2 patch series out immediately. They owe it to the world and they owe it to those of us who write proprietary software that DOESN'T suck.

(P.S. GMAIL invites! I woke up this morning and saw that my other gmail account got 2 new invites, so if you reply with a funny joke about sex and befriend me, I'll give em out to my two favorite ones.)

Well

[arieswind]

We've seen what they said about it, now all thats left is to see what they DO about it...

Be Reasonable

[amliebsch]

It simply isn't fair to blame Microsoft for the ignorance of their users.

Oh my...

[Mz6]

"IE is a super powerful Web browser that hundreds of millions of people choose to use," Hachamovitch replied."

Let me be the first to say... HAHAHAHAHAHA.. choose to use? No, we choose to use Mozilla, Opera, Firefox, and the like... but we didn't choose IE.

Perhaps MS has finally looked at themselves and figured they were behind the times with their browser technology. Sure, they might still be #1, but word spreads quick about the underlying problems and that there is actually another browser choice out there... And it's better! The security problems right now are just the icing on the cake.

"CSS3 has actually been in progress for a number of years and you'll find that IE6 already supports some parts of CSS3 such as vertical text layout," wrote Massy. "This is particularly useful for Far Eastern languages. We can't at this time commit to implementing every part of some of these recommendations but we look at these carefully."

Why can't you comment on them? Why wouldn't you implement the CSS3 standard? Am I missing something here?

Microsoft the underdog.

[MisterP]

Over the years I've read several books and opinion pieces on Microsoft and their success. "Microsoft as the underdog" was a theme in many of them. I guess it's their strategy for motivating their workforce.

As a peon, what would influence you to work harder? Being told that you're the underdog and you're going to get stomped on by Sun, Apple and probably now Linux, or being told that you have a world wide monopoly in the desktop computing space and companies are throwing buckets of money at you every year despite the fact that your software is mediocre at best.

It seems like a logical thing to tell your employees. I guess they leave out the specifics of exactly where they would be classified as the underdog.

Big Mistake...

[Zone-MR]

How can I tell if Internet Explorer has blocked my pop-up window?
Functions that return a window object will return null if the window is blocked. Always check the return value of window.open() before using it to avoid script errors when pop-ups are blocked.
By allowing a script to determine if the popup was blocked, it opens the floodgates for even more annoying and intrusive advertising.

Now whenever the page detects it's popup was blocked, it will force the user to view a full-screen advertising page for a pre-determined time, or other annoyances.

When will advertisers get the message. If people block pop-up windows, they do so for a reason - they are not interested in you're stupid special offers. They should spare themselves the bandwidth and everyone else the annoyance.

Why not?

[Mz6]

" It simply isn't fair to blame Microsoft for the ignorance of their users."

When I build my software applications I have the end-user in mind. Why is it too much to ask the same from Microsoft? Why is they could get away with it, where if I blamed it on the user, it could mean losing my job? You make no sense.

stop spinning

[Doc Ruby]

It's fair to hold M$ accountable for taking unfair advantage of the ignorance of users. Who else would educate them? And which would be more appropriate to change, one monopoly company under court administration for illegally exploiting its market, or millions of unorganized consumers with better things to do today?

he's right

[dekeji]

Getting informed is the only way I know to get better. The day we don't get heated feedback I'll be concerned.

Every time you complain to any software company about a bug, a misfeature, or a problem, you are giving them something pretty valuable, something they would otherwise have to pay a lot of money to find through testing. But all your investment in time and bug reporting is repaid by--having to pay for the next upgrade.

It's like sending the company a $50 donation and then still paying $200 for the next upgrade.

That's one of the reasons why it is so important to use open source alternatives when available: when you report bugs in OSS, you don't pay for the resulting improvements over and over again.

Users, not programmers or lines of code, are the most valuable asset any software project has.

They are Evil, not Stupid

[LordZardoz]

One thing that Slashdotters tend to forget in their eagerness to hold Microsoft in contempt is that they are not stupid.

They may not have much respect for the typical consumer, be slow to respond, and ship buggy software, but they are anything but stupid.

From their standpoint, there really is not much imperative need to respond to complaints until they become critical enough to convince a common user to switch to a competing product.

But when it becomes apparant that such a thing is happening, they can and will respond.

END COMMUNICATION

Re:IE to block popups.

[cK-Gunslinger]

This pretty much means that the popup window will be officially dead in a year's time.

Agreed! But only if by "dead" you actually mean "more insidious" or "replaced by even more sinister means to spam-advertise you to death."

I dread the ubiquitous use of pop-up blockers, as that means their effectiveness will soon wane..

Re:Microsoft are lying to us

[supmylO]

I was using Mozilla yesterday to try and access a site (which was down). When it didn't work, my little brother told me to "use the real internet" (he meant IE) to try and access it. This just kind of shows how some people think that IE is the only thing out there...

Re:Big Mistake...

[myrdred]

Hey, its all good! As long as no other pop-up blocking browsers implement this functionality to return null, then these full page ads will only be presented to the IE users, as the website code would think that their pop-ups weren't blocked when they are with Mozilla, Safari, Opera, etc. So as always, better surfing for the rest of us. I love Microsoft. :P

Re:Microsoft are lying to us

[Quarters]

My mom certainly has no clue that there even IS anything other than IE to use. Most of our mothers probably don't even realize that IE is not "the Internet".

So now Microsoft is the bad guy for not advertising other browsers inside of their product?

When I drive my Subaru it doesn't pop-up ads for Ford.
When I drink my Starbucks I don't get told that I could also be drinking Folgers.

Your statement is illogical. Let me ask you this. If your ignorant mother had a computer that had no web browser on it would she know a different way to get to the Internet, find an FTP site that has browsers for download, retrieve one, and install it?

Didn't think so.

Can your mother use Windows and get to the Internet easily and manage to find information that she is looking for?

Thought so.

*sigh*

[Red Dane]

What, precisely.. is the point of having such a press release?

Is it to engender sympathy b/c microsoft is feeling abused or unloved?

Is it damage control because Microsoft finally figured out that many people are dissapointed in IE?

Or is it a press release that simultaneously tells the masses that Microsoft recognizes the problems, but wants users to still stick with it 'cause they are so concerned?

Hrmmmm

It's a bizzare situation, either way?? :/ what is the point?

Just ruminating.. I'm not trying to be insightful or anything.

CSS3 support

[danharan]

Oh great, they're looking at possibly, maybe doing more to support CSS3.

WTF? I don't want them to add more CSS, I want them to get what they have working like it should.

All the designers I have worked with are mad as hell. The amount of hacks they have to use to produce CSS that is cross-browser compatible and doesn't look like shit on IE is absurd, and the extra time spent on that is killing my budgets.

In other words, I'm mad as hell with IE and Microsoft. I don't really give a damn that IE doesn't have tabbed browsing, or that it ships with insecure defaults. Couldn't give a rat's ass about the lack of pop-up blocking. I care that every f'ing simple web design project's budget has to account for a few extra hours getting their shit working properly.

When FF hits 1.0, I'll go on a mission to convert as many people from IE. I hope others do the same; maybe this will help M$ wake up and smell the standards.

Better suggestion

[dachshund]

the IE big wig thinks that all of his engineers should have other browsers installed to see what they can do

No. All of the IE engineers should have a twelve-year-old kid use their computer at night while they're out of the office. Maybe after uninstalling a few thousand pieces of spyware they'll reconsider some of their basic design choices.

Re:IE to block popups.

[kippy]

It also means that non-power users will freak out when their banking websites or whatever that use valid popups stop working.

I would add to that prediction that help line call for institutions that use popups as part of their interface will skyrocket.

Re:Why not?

[argent]

If you buy a Ford and the radio only plays The Ford Station and you need to get a gas tank adapter to use anything but Ford Gas do you think Ford might be held responsible when someone plays a song on The Ford Station that makes Ford Gas explode?

M$ still employs IE engineers?

[Wizzy Wig]

What have the IE engineers been doing for the last three years? Handing out towels in the rest rooms?

Re:Microsoft are lying to us

[shawn(at)fsu]

Maybe your underestimating your mother. I told my mother to consider using mozillia last week and within 20 minuets she called me back saying she got it. She's not a developer like me, she uses her compuetr for office work, all I had to tell her was to go to Mozilla.org.

I think we need to get over this fear/belief that we /. readers are 1337 and all other people, like our moms, are poor sheep given to the wolves.
Why don't you try telling your mom that their is a different browser out there, give her the URL for Mozilla or what have you.

Maybe you'll find that your mother isn't some backwards internet user but she is actually capable of fending for herself.

CSS CSS CSS

[fredtheshingle]

Before you folks even THINK about implementing outrageous and curiously new features like... Tabbed Browsing or ActiveX, why don't you seriously think about the fact that the core part of IE is a load of junk. How about making the render engine RENDER XHTML and CSS2 properly?! IMPLEMENT THE STANDARDS *COMPLETELY.*

I, along with so many other developers are sick and tired of hacking our otherwise perfectly valid and conforming CSS and markup to make it display properly in the hack you call a browser, which has remained virtually unchanged since the *conception* of Mozilla's Gecko engine. Before you start implementing *parts* of CSS3, why don't you fully and *PROPERLY* implement CSS2? Have you seen the numerous sites dedicated to Internet Explorer specific CSS hacks? You are the most HATED browser. Developers are outraged. It's ridiculous. No one CHOOSES to use IE.

I feel guilty about flaming you on CSS support. I'd much rather see the browser and company just collapse under the power and superior quality of Free and Open Source software. But since that's not going to happen any time soon, and since you're not going to be shipping Firefox or an alternative with your POS software you call an Operating System, and since it's unfortunate that somewhere like 90% of the population uses that abomination you call Internet Explorer... my head would stop spinning so fast if I could just write valid XHTML markup and valid CSS and ... what a concept ... have it render properly in IE!

Just stop trying and give up, for the good of the common man. Really. Your days are numbered, so why not take some time to think about the good old days, and just let natural progression drag you under.

Thank you.

GIve people choice, get real feedback

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason why MS is potentially a big deck of cards is that they consistently shove things down peoples' throats and therefore never get to see what they *would* choose if they had the choice. This gives them an artificial sense of satisfaction among their user base, when it's simply a very long and forceful suppression. It's actually in their long-term best interest to provide people options and see what their choice is *absent* coercion. Otherwise, they will continue to eat their seed corn.

Re:Oh my...

[(trb001)]

Why can't you comment on them?

Um, nobody in business, in their right mind, would commit to something that wasn't finalized yet. That's just asking to kicked in the ass when the final document comes out. They'll implement the CSS standard, but in case the consortium decides to put in "And the <monkey> tag will make monkeys fly out of your screen", they don't want to commit to supporting everything yet.

--trb

Troll much?

[SuperKendall]

FireFox has been faster (and I mean FASTER) for some time than IE.

And for features, how does IE have more features when you get tabbed browsing and popup blocking in Mozila or FireFox?

What "features" does IE have that FireFox is lacking?

Re:Why not?

[volinux]

Ford would be held liable. Remember the Firestone/Ford deal with the bad tires? If a company 's product causes you physical harm because they're negligent, they'll get sued. So why not the same if a company's product causes all your personal information/identity to get stolen?

Stop, right there.

[khasim]

Check back to the Netscape trial and read Microsoft's rational for "integrating" the browser with the OS.

Also, check the comments of people who said that doing so would INCREASE the security risks.

Now, read the comments TODAY about the security holes attributed to IE and how difficult it is for Microsoft to fix them.

This is NOT a problem of "the ignorance of their users".

This is a problem that stems from an IDIOTIC approach to security that was motivated by the desire to destroy Netscape as a company.

Re:In support

[Mattwolf7]

Well good browsing habits will not protect you from Active X.

Re:IE to block popups.

[akeyes]

The default setting in IE will be to block popups.

This pretty much means that the popup window will be officially dead in a year's time.

WTF? You must joking, you actually must think that everyone, or even most will update.

Heck, there are still many people who are only using win98 [thecounter.com].

Choice, Laziness, Ignorance

[HighOrbit]

People don't choose IE. It's a default icon on their desktop and the default broswer in the file associations. Most Joe Sixpack users just don't know any better or are afraid to change or too lazy to change. If they do happen to know that they *can* change, they probably don't know *how* and are too lazy to find out or afraid because computers intimidate the average user.

If the Browser-Fairy were to suddenly change the target of the desktop icon on every computer all over the world from iexplorer.exe to firefox.exe, the market share for IE would go to something like 10% or less. Very few users would make the effort to switch it back. IE is a virtual monopoly because Windows is a desktop monopoly. There is no conscience choice involved.

Re:Well

[rice_web]

They do offer a "if this file does not automatically download" link, so they'll simply have to change the text to "Please click here to download" after they've chosen a server, or simply include the link to the file right when you choose the server. Actually, it'll take a bit of load time out of the equation.

But I would like to point out that this is vastly superior not blocking automatic downloads. As of now, the user is bombarded with spyware downloads that the typical user does not recognize as spyware.

In this case, I think it best to leave some inconvenience for the geeks that can stand the inconvenience as opposed to leaving the door wide open for spammers and malware creators.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us

[lpp]

Swapping engines in a car is more akin to swapping Gecko out for KHTML within Mozilla. But when Joe Person watches TV or drives around, they see numerous variations on the same thing. What's more, when they are taught to drive, they find that there is very little variance in how things appear to them regardless of which car they drive.

Do the lines in the middle of the road suddenly appear all crammed over on the left? No. Do the street signs suddenly show up all in illegibly small print? No. Do the traffic lights suddenly quit blinking and lighting up for them? No.

Now, the placement of various controls might differ somewhat. But a steering wheel works the same regardless. As do the pedals (some cars having a clutch of course).

But with a browser, the entire browsing experience is different depending on which layout engine you use. For the most part it's the same, but not always, and particularly if a site takes advantages of the quirks of a certain engine.

In any case, Microsoft is not in the same boat as a car manufacturer with regard to browsers. Most folks don't get ads on TV indicating the hot chicks they could pick up if only they would use Firefox (I mean, it has *fox* right there in the name!). And they aren't assaulted visually be billboards indicating how cool the latest Opera revision is. Likewise, they can't drive by fleets of computers all showing them the latest copy of Safari as they take little Timmy to school in the morning.

Most users are not aware, and usually only as a circumstance of their usage patterns.

The web conveys information (or is supposed to) and if you are not interested in information regarding web browsers, you will not be aware of alternate browsers. It's just that simple.

And the user who posted about AOL is exactly right. Likewise, Microsoft capitalizes on this fact. If it is already installed and working on someone's new computer, they are much less likely to switch, unless they a) have a reason to and b) have the knowledge of what they might be able to switch to.

And if Toyota could set it up so that people were unaware there were any other manufacturers available, do you think for one second they wouldn't?

Re:Oh my...

[danharan]

Why can't you comment on them? Why wouldn't you implement the CSS3 standard? Am I missing something here?

Meh, I'd settle for *properly* implementing CSS1 and 2.

Re:Why not?

[Randolpho]

When I build my software applications I have the end-user in mind. Why is it too much to ask the same from Microsoft? Why is they could get away with it, where if I blamed it on the user, it could mean losing my job? You make no sense.

Microsoft builds *every* piece of software with the end-user in mind. That's their problem. That's why their stuff is so riddled with security holes: people asked for the convenience of not having to deal with certain things, MS obliged, and then the people got fucked by it.

I'd say that the problem MS has (other than a tendency to unfairly dominate the market) is that they are *too* reliant on the end-user. All too often with MS, it really *is* a feature and not a bug.

Re:Well

[schon]

you have to love these suggestions
* Do not install ActiveX controls using a pop-up window or HTML dialog.
* Do not suggest to users they should lower their security settings to install an ActiveX control.
* Do create an instance of the ActiveX control on a standalone page describing the purpose and end-user impact of the control.


I had to read that twice to be sure that it was true...

They're saying they're making IE more secure by asking website authors not to exploit it?!?!?!?

OK, you can shoot me now. I've seen everything.

Re:Innovation

[rd_syringe]

By the way, those features, a popular staple of Mozilla, were taken from the commercial browser Opera.

Everybody "innovates" new versions of old ideas. Hell yeah, I'd love to see tabbed browser and mouse gestures. Pop-up blocking is already coming in SP2, and a download manager is in the Longhorn betas.

Re:Microsoft the underdog.

[Dutchmaan]

>

Some may wish to flame me for this, but, how is that any different than how the U.S. views themselves on the world stage.

It has been a long standing view of mine that Microsoft is to U.S. citizens, what the U.S. government is to the world.

Re:correction

[SILIZIUMM]

Ha, you should tell that to Microsoft...

Re:stop spinning

[kneecarrot]

So now it's Microsoft's responsibility to educate users? That is utterly ridiculous.

It's called educating oneself. It's called personal responsibility.

Re:In support

[khendron]

I have used IE my entire life...

Let's see, that makes you 9 years old :-).

You are right in that IE has many good features. One of the reasons MS won the browser war I was because IE worked just as good as and often better than Netscape, so there was no reason to change.

Good browsing habits will not help you with IE. I've been hit more than once by drive by installations of spyware that did not require any clicking 'Yes'. And, yes, I keep my Windows OS up to date.

So things might be different for browser war II.

Re: Microsoft Responds to IE Criticism

[manavendra]

Well, there have been several instances in the past where versions of one browser have been totally incompatible with the next. I specifically remember the differences in IE 4, 4.5 and 5. More recently, there have been subtle differences in 5 and 5.5

Specifically on IE front, I empathise that it becomes more difficult because a large number of websites have been written with only IE in mind. Maybe those are now considered flaws, but there was a time when IE was preferred because of those nifty things that it allowed one to do

This probably might make you unhappy, having to re-write probably large parts of your website, however, considering the number of attacks that have been targeted towards it, if the new SP protects the naive users, then I'm sure it will go down well with the user community

Re:Why not?

[ViolentGreen]

If you buy a Ford and the radio only plays The Ford Station and you need to get a gas tank adapter to use anything but Ford Gas do you think Ford might be held responsible when someone plays a song on The Ford Station that makes Ford Gas explode?

That is not a fair comparison. Windows doesn't force you to use any of Microsoft's products (with the exception of IE for WindowsUpdate).

It's hardly ignorant users, is it?

[Gordonjcp]

Imagine a car manufacturer produced a car where the wheels were held on by one big nut. Imagine that nut kept slackening off unless you tightened it every 1,000 miles, with the result that the wheels popped off occasionally when you went round corners. You'd expect them to either *warn owners to make sure the nut was tight*, or better still, fix it somehow. Maybe they'd put a split-pin through it, or better yet go for a conventional three-, four- or five-stud fixing.

Microsoft *are* that car manufacturer, but they're just continually saying that it's the fault of the owner, for not reading the tiny warning label printed at the back of the battery tray, only visible when you get under the bonnet with a torch.

Re:Why not?

[hraefn]

If there is a Ford dealership close to my house and all I ever do is buy Fords, should Ford be held liable when all my cars fall apart?

Maybe, if Ford was the only car manufacturer you knew about.

Maybe if when you drove car you didn't see any other cars.

Maybe if almost all your friends and neighbors drove Fords, except for the graphic designer down the street who drives a deisel BMW.

Maybe if the other person you know who doesn't drive a Ford is one guy from your IT department... and he drives a Chevy that runs off of used vegetable oil.

Maybe if schools provided their students with Fords and your work provides you with a Ford.

Maybe if switching to a Mercury requires that you tow it home with your Ford, and you have to keep the Ford around, not only because you cannot get rid of it, but also in case there is a road the Mercury can't drive on.

Re:In support

[DeusExMalex]

no, we bash ie because it's crap. the only reason it loads anything faster (or boots faster) is that it's always open and always running (unless you're using a mac). and it's simply not possible to use ie your whole life without getting spyware on your box. run ad-aware [download.com] or spybot search & destroy [download.com]. you'll be surprised exactly how much spyware is on your system.
while ie might load faster (because you can't get rid of it), it still doesn't have basic functionality that other browsers have. tabbed browsing? nope. not even w/ sp2 (that isn't out yet). popup blocking? 2.5 years after the fact. way to go ie.
and what "features and support" does ie have that mozilla doesn't? it's hard to beat open-source software on support, since it's a community effort to begin with...
bottom line - even with good browsing habits ie is still crap - as is all microsoft's products.

Re:Why not?

[jedidiah]

In civilized nations, people are held accountable for the forseen dangers they subject people to and for their incompetence.

Re:In support

[hcdejong]

More features? Like popup blocking, tabbed browsing, PNG support etc.? Or did you mean 'features' like standards-noncompliance? IE is years behind in terms of functionality.

Re:Why not?

[PierceLabs]

It doesn't force you to no. Bill Gates doesn't come into yuor house and put a gun to your head and make you use IE.

However what they do is integrate all of their products with the OS such that it becomes highly unlikely that you would exert any effort to replace those products. The Windows desktop/OS is just like viewing an ad that you see everytime your machine starts. You're more likely to use a product that you see all the time and the 'switching cost' just gets higher and higher for everyone else.

Re:Microsoft the underdog.

[Dan Ost]

Please don't make the mistake of assuming that US foreign policy reflects or is in any way
influenced by the actual opinions of individual Americans.

Re:Microsoft the underdog.

[IGnatius T Foobar]

Some may wish to flame me for this, but, how is that any different than how the U.S. views themselves on the world stage.
It has been a long standing view of mine that Microsoft is to U.S. citizens, what the U.S. government is to the world.
You're correct, and as a US citizen, I'm ashamed of this behavior by our supposedly (but not actually) representative government.

It's childish and stupid of either organization to act that way.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us

[jedidiah]

If an "ignorant mother" did not have the force bundled IE to browse with, the person that put her computer together would be more than happy to provide her with one by default.

THIS IS THE WAY THE INDUSTRY USED TO WORK.

What a moron you are.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us

[DShard]

This would indicate to me that if Microsoft didn't ship with IE as "The Internet" (tm), the vast majority of mothers would never even have the opportunity to use the internet.

That wasn't true in the past when Netscape had dominance in usage. Many mothers _did_ have to download or picked from install media which one they used. I think your style of dismissing people as incapable of being able to understand "the web" as an idea is arrogant and elitist.

The reason that IE is the predominant browser on the web is due to the fact that Microsoft leveraged their operating system to foist it as the default. This wouldn't have been bad if they were a vendor among many selling gui systems, but they took care of that by leveraging their office suite to remove competition over the click and point interface. (Apple does not compete in exactly the same market, so the fact that they have office isn't relevant, nor did it happen when the competition was actually in place.)

They had in the process put themselves in a monopoly position with exclusionary tactics, to the point that the government decided to label them as such. Which in a bizarre twist of fate, actually concerns Microsoft's chiefs so much that they are fearing that they can't meaningfully grow.

Maybe this isn't quite as bad for everyone as most of us think...

It's actually much worse. Microsoft has stiffled innovation and competition in the prefered developement space, namely web. Their virtual dropping of their IE product has forced people to work around the failed product, regardless of what the rest of the commercial world thinks.

It's the age-old MS strategy...

[aldarion]

Microsoft has been using this strategy for years, it's called "embrace and extend". Basically, when you have most of the market, if you leave in a few conspicuous bugs (e.g. rendering anomalies) or non-standard behaviour, but otherwise implement a powerful and popular standard, you achieve extended lock-in to your particular product. Everyone is forced to spend time adapting to you, and frequently don't bother with implementing for other users. That's why MS doesn't ever want to fully comply with standards. Because they can.

Re:Why not?

[4of12]

only plays The Ford Station

There's a problem.

The information to which people are exposed (the largest media outlets) is typically devoid of meaningful rational content and unbiased evaluation of different alternatives.

Either you have to open up media access so that people can be exposed to many more opinions, or else you have to educate people early enough to exercise some effort to exercise responsibility to actively go and seek out alternative sources of information.

Or else accept that we are mostly a herd.

Here at the Coca-Cola sponsored high school we're quite content with dumb-enough kids "learning" to purchase our products from the TV that we control.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Why not?

[Mr_Silver]

However what they do is integrate all of their products with the OS such that it becomes highly unlikely that you would exert any effort to replace those products.

...and whose fault is that if I'm too damn lazy to look for alternatives?

Hint: It's not Microsoft.

Extensions and Content-Type still broken

[Anonymous Coward]

Says the MSDN article [microsoft.com]:

Does your Web site contain files with file extensions that do not match their Content-Type?

If your site serves files that are handled by mime-handlers, the file extensions on those files should correspond to the same ProgID as the mime-handler. If the Content-type ProgID for a given file does not match the file extension ProgID, Internet Explorer in XP SP2 may take the following actions: 1) the user may be prompted to download the file and 2) the file will not be executed in the extension-handler if it fails to execute in the mime-handler.

You can correct these mismatches by changing the content-type to match the file extension. Be sure this is true for your Web pages as well. Exception: This change does not affect cases where a "content-disposition=attachment" header is sent. In those cases, the file name or extension suggested by the server is considered final and is not changed based on Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions (MIME) sniffing.

Versus the spec [w3.org] (emphasis mine):

Any HTTP/1.1 message containing an entity-body SHOULD include a Content-Type header field defining the media type of that body. If and only if the media type is not given by a Content-Type field, the recipient MAY attempt to guess the media type via inspection of its content and/or the name extension(s) of the URI used to identify the resource. If the media type remains unknown, the recipient SHOULD treat it as type "application/octet-stream".

Fortunately both the HTTP spec and the article think URLs have extensions. *bangs head against wall*.

-- Arien

MIME Type vs Extensions

[Jezral]

"If the Content-type ProgID for a given file does not match the file extension ProgID, Internet Explorer in XP SP2 may take the following actions: 1) the user may be prompted to download the file and 2) the file will not be executed in the extension-handler if it fails to execute in the mime-handler."

I'm not so sure I like or agree with that one.

MIME types are there for a reason, so I can serve anyfile.anyext as text/html or image/jpeg. Or name.hubba as a Quicktime movie. I'd expect both to work, since that's what MIME types are for...

Extensions are a bad hack, and a relic from the DOS era. They should get rid of them instead of enforcing them (yeah, I know Mac OS X partially fell for extensions also, poor sods).

Does anyone have an RPM or ...

[bob670]

source for this Internet Explorer, I think we should support this underdog company and try to break the iron grip that FireFOx..... errrr. wait, never mind.

Do you get the feeling MS is really starting to sweat that they are simply out of ideas and finding fewer places to steal from since they strangled thier own market place?

Re:Why not?

[argent]

The metaphorical Ford isn't forcing me to buy their radio. I can go down to Mobile One and install a Concord in an even exchange. Ford isn't forcing me to use Ford Gas, they even provide a free adapter via the mail. They still don't tell me that I can replace the radio and I have to find out about the gastank adapter through Consumer Reports.

Microsoft isn't forcing you to use their dangerous browser, but they make it sufficiently hard that it's taken several years before more than a tiny fraction of the users are thinking about using something else...

Re:stop spinning

[miskatonic alumnus]

Whatever, dude. Educating oneself -- what a laugh. Let me tell you something. I teach at a college where the majority of students have recently completed 12 years of "eduction"; and yet, they still cannot write a grammatically correct essay, add two fractions correctly, or tell you who the main players were in WWII. And you say these people should "educate themselves". Har dee har har!!! What country do you live in?

Re:It's hardly ignorant users, is it?

[metasyntactic]

Using your car analogy, would you be upset if instead of a tiny warning label printed at the back of the battery tray, you got a big blinking light on your dashboard saying "go in for service!!" If a driver saw that and chose to ignore it, who would you be upset at?

This akin to how WindowsUpdate works. You get a notification that critical updates are available and that you really should install them to protect the computer.

Who's at fault when the user ignores those messages?

No software is bug free and issues will have to be fixed as time goes on. However, unless we're going to automatically install updates without asking the user first, then it's goign to be a process where the user needs to be involved in some way.

This is true with any OS. Imagine someone complaining that they got hacked on their linux distro of choice, afterwards when asked it turns out they never once ran anything like up2date, emerge, apt, etc. to make sure they had all the necessary software patches in place. Would you blame the distro for shipping with those bugs. You could, but you'd be ignoring the real fact that bugs are inevitable right now. Instead, you would teach the person that responsibility lies partly with them in keeping their computer safe. This is no different on a windows system. Teach users to keep their system up to date (all it takes is one click to make that completely automated!).

-- Cyrus (http://blogs.msdn.com/cyrusn [msdn.com])

Re:Why not?

[krgallagher]

"When I build my software applications I have the end-user in mind. Why is it too much to ask the same from Microsoft?"

Yeah, I do the same thing. Still, the power of users, in numbers to large to imagine, to do stupid things I never counted on, still amazes me. Not a single release goes by that I do not have some "bug" fall out in testing that is simply due to some idiot doing the unexpected and idiotic.

Re:Oh my...

[Cereal Box]

I have a feeling these geeks who insist that anyone using IE "must've" been forced to do so suffer from a superiority complex. They, the erudite computer geeks, who have computer knowledge bestowed by God himself, have seen through the lies and tricks and have chosen The Superior Browser, Mozilla. Meanwhile, the "plebes" are stuck with IE because they are too foolish to see through Microsoft's smokescreen of deception and trickery.

Give me a fucking break. All this self-righteousness, over software.

But I'm in the same boat as you. I have Mozilla, but I prefer IE. No one else on Slashdot will believe it, but I choose to use IE.

Your analogy is broken.

[zantispam]

> When I drive my Subaru it doesn't pop-up ads for Ford.

When you drive your Subaru, the radio plays ads for Ford. And Chevy. And Kia, &c

> When I drink my Starbucks I don't get told that I could also be drinking Folgers.

When you go to the grociery store, you see House Blend next to #10 cans of Folgers.

> If your ignorant mother had a computer that had no web browser on it would she know a different way to get to the Internet, find an FTP site that has browsers for download, retrieve one, and install it?

Non-sequiter. Would anyone not familiar with the technology know how?

borked

[sharkey]

It's really hard to beleive that Microsoft would seriously listen to any criticism when they STILL deliberately send broken CSS to competing browers. Visiting MSJVM support info [microsoft.com] in Opera with Opera or Mozilla as the user-agent gets the "negative left margin" style. Choose IE as user-agent and it's fine.

Re:Why not?

[RLW]

It's not a matter of looking for alternatives. It's a matter of even knowing that alternatives exist. The vas majority of Windowss users are not computer savy at all. It is diffcult for the masses to even get their system on line and start looking around the web for even basic portals. it's not like driving down the street and looking for businesses. For the vast majority, the web is an alien place. it's also not a matter of lazyness but a matter of fear. Once a typical user gets their system up they typically leave well enough alone. Your average user is not aware that windows has allowed his system to be used as part of a DDoS attack or is now a smap bot. They just check out CNN or some other news portal they've managed to get to and check e-mail. A few even figure out how to go shopping. IE is on top because of ignorance and fear. Period.

Re:Why not?

[callipygian-showsyst]

I agree!

It's a lot like my G5!

I have to buy special "Macintosh" software, and if I add any third-party product (like memory or disk drives), Apple won't service it, even if I'm paying for the repairs.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us

[CrowScape]

Great, so instead of using whatever product Microsoft provides her with by default and never changing, she'll use whatever product the OEM provides her with by default and never change. Not a whole lot better.

Re:stop spinning

[aldousd666]

I know what you're saying, but people who drive cars know that they need to change their oil every once in a while -- even if they aren't mechanics -- they also know that there are serveral makers they can buy from, and what the differences between them are. But they don't seem to think that they need to keep up to date with antivirus and patch levels, and they don't know there is anything but what is on their desktop shortcuts list in the way of browsers. I'm not even touching the fact that they don't know that they aren't forced to use windows. Maybe people need to be trained to give their own machines an oil change every once in a while. I do't bug the neighbor to change my fuel filter for me for free every time I see him, and he's an automechanic. Same deal.

Re:stop spinning

[chris_mahan]

That's because they don't fucking read books.

As far as I am concerned, people who do not take their own lives seriously enough to read and educate themselves get the miserable lives they deserve.

Think it's callous? Watch discovery channel and note that the lioness goes for the antelope that limps.

A while back I was at a restaurant. I was also working in the restaurant industry, so I know good customer service skills. The manager at that Burger King on Sherman Way in Reseda treated his customers like dirt. Now, I though: "that's unfair" and I wanted to go tell him. Yet I thought to myself: "why should I help this man run his restaurant better? He'll just compete against me better. Fuggedaboutit."

(I'll get to MS in a second)

As I was driving away, I was thinking about the customers that go to that place. You know, the ones that don't know any better.

Now, you know, Microsoft understands that 90% of the world's people are generally stupid and uneducated. They cater to them. They give them crappy software that makes lUsers feel smart (in retrospect, it's hard, you know, to make something that makes a stupid person feel smart), they take their money, treat them like dirt (no phone support, no email support, we'll sue your ass if you steal from us), and the customers just love it...

I have no sympathy for those users.

I wish microsoft good luck in their endehavor to cater to the stupid 95%.

If that's what we open source people want to cater to, I say watch out. It's harder than it seems to make a stupid person go "this was easy". There's gonna be a lot of good high quality complex and powerful software that's gonna become mundaine and everyday for the everyman, thus absolutely unuseable by the people who have to get the work done.

Re:Why not?

[JDevers]

In what way is that different from any other industry though? I don't remember buying a Nissan that included an ad for a Mazda in the glovebox. If people have heard of other browsers (which most have, even if it is just Netscape 4.7), then they KNOW of the alternatives...if they aren't able to download and install them that is there fault.

Think about these scenarios for a second:

Microsoft doesn't include ANY sort of browser in the default Windows install. Only the technically literate will be able to get a browser using commandline FTP tools. This limits people's access to other browsers more than the current situation.

Microsoft includes Mozilla and IE in its default Windows install. This is something we would NEVER expect any other company to do. See the Nissan/Mazda example above. Also, what about people that don't like EITHER, should they also include Opera and Konqueror ports?

Windows installs only Mozilla by default. Same song, different pitch. Not only will M$ never do this they have no reason to be expected to do it, nor would this change the situation. Eventually everyone would use Mozilla and people would bitch about it and complain that M$ was forcing them to use Mozilla.

Personally, I hate M$ and IE. I use Gentoo/XFCE4/Firefox at home (have to use IE at work...), but this is an area where we really can't FIX the problem in any way other than doing our best to make people aware of the alternatives and helping them install the software if they can. Also we should do our best to stop new sites from using IE-centric features or just blindly assuming they are being viewed on a Win 9x/NT system using IE.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us

[.com b4 .storm]

When I drive my Subaru it doesn't pop-up ads for Ford.
When I drink my Starbucks I don't get told that I could also be drinking Folgers.

Bad analogy. Even fairly clueless people know that there are different brands of cars, coffee, etc. That's because there is competition, and face it - people probably put more thought into what they want in a car than they do with computers. A computer, to the "mothers" of the world, is an appliance. Until people realize that computers, like cars, require smart buying, maintenance, and can vary widely in terms of quality, that's the way it will be.

Even with the appliance analogy, however, there is a problem. Most people realize that if you don't clean, maintain, and intelligently use an appliance, it is not going to work very well or for very long. If I don't use my toaster properly, I'll probably set my kitchen on fire. Similarly, if I don't use my computer properly, I could end up losing all my data or having my credit card # hijacked.

Anyway, I got sidetracked there. Just keep in mind that when a monopoly has a stranglehold on a market, all the rules change. Microsoft doesn't necessarily have to advertise competing products, but the rules are different when the market is not totally or even mostly free. And there's no excuse for providing a crappy, security breach of a product, monopoly or no...

Re:Well

[cmdr_beeftaco]

IE is making a strategic push into the pron surfer user segment. Blocking pop-up from pop-ups is a huge productivity boost to all porn surfers. Other minor enhancements will definitly scratch the itch of many porn surfers as well. This clearly lays the groundwork for totally dominatation of the porn industry by Microsoft.

As IE becomes the browser of choice for porn surfing, a larger question opens up. Will millions of teen age boys grow up staring glassy eyed at an IE browser and not some other dirty browser. What long term effects will this have on Microsoft mindshare amoung young adults? And how effectively does it counter Apple's education play for mindshare? 30 years from now are you telling me the CIO of a major company is going remove Microsoft from the enterprise when he has been masterbating with IE for the better part of his life?

Re:Why not?

[BRonsk]

If their cars are low quality, they are not "liable". If their cars can cause harm, and you can prove they didn't take reasonable measures to prevent it, they are. This is the difference. IE can harm your PC - and to yourself. They don't give a fuck. Why wouldn't they be liable?

Re:thats crap

[miskatonic alumnus]

just becuase users are "too busy" to educate themselves?

Just exactly how much self-education do you think the general populace is capable of? Our (the U.S.) public education does a lousy job of teaching the masses the three R's, much less anything technical. How about this one, mister infinite-amount-of-time-on-my-hands -- Do you know by heart all of the local ordinances of your municipality? You are supposed to! After all, ignorance of the law is no excuse, right? So, you better not be ignorant.

Sit back and chill, while I relate my little tale. I went to drop my boy off at kindergarten. I parked at the curb beside the school and escorted him in. As I returned to my truck, a janitor relayed a message from a cop that if I continued to park there, I would be ticketed! Now, bear in mind that I was legally parked (correct distance from the curb, no "no parking" signs anywhere, I wasn't in an intersection or crosswalk, etc. etc.) So, I went to the P.D. and asked some cops what the deal was. Guess what? Of three cops questioned, none knew for certain what I had done wrong. One said something about the street maybe being to narrow (it wasn't). Another said he thought there was some law about not parking at the curb of a school (there isn't). They suggested I go to the public library and read the book of local ordinances. I did that, and it turns out that I was in the right -- I was legally parked.

Things I learned:

1) Laws I wasn't aware existed, and where to find them.

2) The cops themselves DID NOT KNOW THE LAW! They are supposed to be trained in these matters, right? I mean, if they don't know the law, how can they ticket you for breaking it?

Now, It being the case that everyone is supposed to comply with the law, and that ignorance is no excuse for breaking it, we can conclude that everyone should be familiar with the regulations -- right? But, but, the book runs about 1000 pages! A personal copy costs a whopping $800, unless you photocopy it. There are only three copies in the city (of about 20,000 people) available for public viewing. Now do the math!

It is entirely UNREALISTIC to expect every member of society to inform themselves of the laws they are bound to obey, much less the web-browsing alternatives to IE. They are bounded by their level of reading comprehension, the amount of free time at their disposal, their level of mathematical ability, and their access to information itself. Get real.

Re:stop spinning

[admdrew]

Most people tend to look at their home computer as an appliance; buy it and it should work just fine for a few years. Unlike cars where some upkeep is generally assumed, the average person does not see a computer in the same way.

Unlike an appliance, however, people don't often know when their computer is in need of 'repairs.' While a stove or a fridge often will either work or won't, there are varying levels of performance of a computer.

Computers *should* be treated more like cars. Running antivirus programs and keeping your machine up to date are as important as checking the fluid levels in your car. If only Joe Shmoe knew that too.

Re:Why not?

[kin_korn_karn]

Microsoft engineers users' perception such that they are led to believe that IE is the only web browser.

It's not a matter of being too lazy to download Firefox, it's a matter of not knowing it exists because Microsoft's marketing has conditioned them to think IE = The Internet.

Not everyone is as brilliant as the open source community thinks it is.

Re:Why not?

[galaxy300]

Unless you happen to take a walk another block down the street to the BMW (read: Apple) dealership.

Alternately, you might know somebody smart in the neighborhood that likes to tinker, and they can build you a Go-Kart (read: Linux).

Nobody forces anyone to buy or use a Windows computer. They do it because they're cheap and easy. Some people want cheaper, and some people want easier. Luckily those alternatives exist.

Re:Choice, Laziness, Ignorance

[Christianfreak]

If the Browser-Fairy were to suddenly change the target of the desktop icon on every computer all over the world from iexplorer.exe to firefox.exe, the market share for IE would go to something like 10% or less.

Sounds like we need an IE worm that does just that ...

(j/k ... mostly)

Re:MIME Type vs Extensions

[Anonymous Coward]

File typing is meta-data, sticking the meta-data in the file name is bad design. Apple figured out well over a decade ago that this sort of thing should go into the directory entry/inode, not be dependant on a file nameing convention. That said, the issue is not as simple as it sounds, and needs to be thought out carefully.

Re:stop spinning

[miskatonic alumnus]

Interesting position. However, there are consequences -- namely, even the intelligent and educated are affected by the "choices" of the ignorant. Case in point -- spam, viruses, worms, etc. flood the internet, eat up storage and bandwitdth, and reduce productivity. Extra time and money must be allocated to hire and train people to combat the problem.

Here's another -- I read an article in a medical journal a few years back. It discussed doctors giving too many antibiotics to the ignorant masses -- who demand antibiotics for everything from a common cold to a stubbed toe. This results in selecting for antibiotic-resistant bacteria -- super-bugs, if you will. The result is disease that can no longer be combatted by antibiotics. There are several bacteria that now exhibit resistance to penicillin -- for a long time, the most powerful weapon in the antibiotic arsenal.

It is in the best interests of EVERYONE that people lose their ignorance. Many need help to do it. Are you going to chip in? Or are you going to sit on the sidelines when the social, environmental, and financial systems collapse and giggle about how fucking smart you are?

Re:Why not?

[AstroDrabb]

Your leaving out a few important points. Ford has a monopoly (that they were convicted for) of 95%+ of all auto sales.

95%+ of all gas stations sell proprietary FORD ONLY gas protected by patents.

95%+ of tire stations sell proprietary FORD ONLY tires protected by patents.

95%+ of mechanic shops service FORD ONLY cars

95%+ of of all auto parts stores sell FORD ONLY proprietary parts.

95%+ of etc, etc This situation was created by Ford because of their illegal monopoly and tactics. The others went were the money is just to survive. If Ford had not been an illegal monopoly and engaged in anti-competitive tactics, competition would have come along and made the market much better overall.

Re:Why not?

[athakur999]

To be completely fair, it's taken several years for people to start discovering other browsers because it's taken several years for there to come into existance a free browser worth switching to.

Re:IE to block popups.

[leerpm]

But there is a major difference. CSS layers die when you close the window with the originating webpage. You have to close popups individually(putting aside those users that know how to kill the process), and thats why everyone hates them so much.

Re:Why not?

[BRonsk]

When the security breach installs a keyboard logger that gets my SSN, credit card numbers and password to my online banking website, I consider being potentially harmed. Me , not my computer.

Re:stop spinning

[SageMusings]

But they do exactly that!

The WinXP OS has the ability to periodically check for the availability of patches and other updates. All a user has to perform is the simple skill of reading the freakin dialog on his or her screen.

Isn't this the same as a recall? Sure you do not see the notification in your post office box but you do get it just the same.

Re:Why not?

[hkfczrqj]

Microsoft includes Mozilla and IE in its default Windows install. This is something we would NEVER expect any other company to do. See the Nissan/Mazda example above.

But, AFAIK, Nissan was not declared a monopoly, nor it behaves as a monopoly. I get your point, but I think the example you gave wasn't the right one.

Cheers...

PS: I almost wrote "monopole" instead of monopoly. Today I'm overloaded with physics...

Re:Avoidance of the W3C standards question

[Nurgled]

Of course, busting through all of your FUD, what they really mean is they can't just go in there and fix all of the bugs, because there are quite a few sites out there that depend on the bugs.

One thing Microsoft is fanatical about is backward compatibility. They had a whole team of people testing 16-bit apps to ensure they would run on Windows 95, and Win95 was full of little "shims" and other special cases to make applications which depend on Microsoft's old bugs and undocumented APIs continue to work.

From a purely idealistic point of view, I'd love it if MS just broke all of the sites which pander to IE's bugs, but I think we can all see that in practice that is not an option. Even Mozilla has lots of shims in it to emulate IE's bugs for the sake of backward-compatibility.

tacit ignorance

[krayfx]

well, it is microsofts' responsibility afterall! well, not the part where the stoopid average joe doesnt update his stuff, cant blame good ol' bill for joe's misery. but yes definetley the part where people pay gobs of money to write something good and billy doesnt write good stuff. writing a GRAND "daddy" browser that is integrated with everything in the system, while there are doors and windows everywhere for everyone to come and peek is billy's fault. billy cant feign ignorance for that. surely he could have changed things as he proceeded with 95/me/2k/xp/2k3/..."longhorn" now ?

Re:Why not?

[SageMusings]

Rediculous,

If someone could collect 5X damages for software error in a product like WinAmp (pro) software quality would not "Jump through the roof".

Instead, you would spawn a whole new type of litigious scum (a la SCO), who spent their entire day looking for the most obscure defects. This would make software UNPROFITABLE for me for you for everyone. Casual developers would disappear overnight and those willing to stay the course would have to charge exorbitant fees to amortize the effect of lawsuits.

Re:CSS CSS CSS

[Anonymous Coward]

I did a site with some advanced css and dhtml which worked in ie and moz. It was an interesting exercise. I've since returned to a large measure of table layout. css layout is a much preferable concept, but the effort, the hacks, the trial and error... More than anything else, ie is holding back the development of web design. The standards are in place for some exciting stuff, but because of market share, the defacto standard is ie.

Your days are numbered, so why not take some time to think about the good old days, and just let natural progression drag you under.

It would be so nice if that was true.

Re:M$ still employs IE engineers?

[ignavus]

What have the IE engineers been doing for the last three years?

Trying to weld IE into the OS. And weld it closed (DRM, etc).

Re:Why not?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Microsoft includes Mozilla and IE in its default Windows install.
> This is something we would NEVER expect any other company to do.

AFAIK, Apple includes IE and Safari in its default Mac OS X install.

Re:Why not?

[walt-sjc]

IE is used all over windows - not just for web browsing. They really have integrated the damn thing into everything.

Not so sure on the "Ford" analogy, but one I have may be close. I have a Volvo that has a Bose stereo. It had a POS in-dash changer that died. Talked to the dealer and they are notoriously shitty, and are constantly being replaced (for $450 for a refurb unit.) So I go looking for third party replacements. The old bose was a 5 speaker system (center in the dash.) No normal stereo supports that. Fine - I won't use the 5th. Then I find out that the bose "system" has little amps at each speaker so that means I have to replace all the speakers too! Well, this starts getting Very expensive, very invasive, etc. so I end up getting an Alpine changer with FM modulator and keeping the half-broken old bose system because of the tight integration.

This reminds me Very much of IE in Windows. Yes, I can use an alternative browser for some stuff, but the integrated IE is still there and used for other stuff I have no control over (more than just WU.)

Reality Check 2

[bonaman_24]

People just keep saying over and over that the users are just as much fault for not educating themselves. There is a reason why Slashdot users know about IE, Adaware, Linux and the new OS X system. We like learning about this stuff. Should I be accused of being lazy because I don't know how to cross-stitch? No, that just doesn't interest me and I could live out my life happily not knowing it. Many people feel that way about computers and we shouldn't call them lazy for not drilling into technical things when they really have no interest to do so. If I buy a PC from any store, I get Windows and IE...done deal. People should not be blamed for not knowing about Firefox, Safari and other options like that. It is up to a business to support the public interest of the business and since Mozilla is distributing Firefox free, don't expect advertising. Therefore it seems like the necessary advertising for Firefox is word-of-mouth and that seems to fall on users. Since Firefox's main users are techies, it's fate rests on us telling our mom's, not Microsoft. My mom is afraid of computers; she's not going to download Firefox any more than I'm going to learn how to stitch with her.

Re:Microsoft are lying to us

[Fulcrum of Evil]

They sure as hell can. However, if they do, they will lose the pricing agreements they have with Microsoft.

And then they get to pay retail price for XP. Haven't you been paying attention? MS isn't allowed to illegally bundle their products because they're a monopoly.

No, it's not Microsoft's problem because it's not Microsoft's responsibility to educate every user about alternatives to their software.

No, it isn't their problem because they hold a sword over the heads of their distributors so that they can't educate their customers.

Re:Microsoft the underdog.

[Slime-dogg]

It's more like the opinions of the 592 individual Americans in congress, the 1 person that matters in the White House, and 7 in the supreme court (although they don't have as immediate impact as the other 593 peopls.)

When you factor in the number of people or companies *funding* these people, you end up with a political culture that barely recognizes the average individual American's opinion. Of course, you have the vocal extremists that pop up, but they are typically ignored in the long run as well. America is full of lemmings who vote for those who can produce the most colorful television commercials, or worse, they blindly support a party that they know nothing about. Look at the unions, where every member of a union will support a party because that's what the union says to support. Look at the yellow-dogs who vote for a party because their parents voted for a party. Try arguing about politics with the average American, and you'll probably find a number of people who would be better followers of the party that opposes the one that they vote for.

Yes. I am a cynical American, and I feel like I have very little say in what our government does, or who is in it.

Re:Why not?

[shaitand]

Your not too lazy, you just don't even know what a web browser is, let alone that you could have other ones.

If however there was no browser installed on the system to begin with, you would be faced with this choice and make it.

But there is more to it than that, IE uses boatloads of proprietary technology. Proprietary technology is fine in a browser so long as it has nothing to do with redering web pages (popup blockers and so forth). Even if they stopped bundling IE today it would take years for anyone to move to an alternative. MS would claim they "chose" ie, but in truth they used the only browser that works with X proprietary app.

Re:thats crap

[AstroDrabb]

Exactly how should consumers know about the next potential MS exploit so that they could make an informed choice about the quality of a product? I owned a Ford Ranger truck a few years ago. There was a recall because of bad tires. I was sent a letter and I made an appointment at a local mechanic shop. I took in the truck and all four tires were replaced BY THE TECH. Ford didn't call me up and tell me to go and pick up the four tires and install them myself. Yet this is exactly what MS expects consumers to do. The average consumer has no clue about computer technology besides basic usage. Just as I am not a mechanic nor do I have to be one to get my bad tires fixed. If MS had to do the equivalent of what auto makers have to do for faulty products they would be required to notify every registered user and pay for them to take the computer to a repair shop to be fixed.

This has nothing to do with personal responsibility. If I purchased a DVD player that had bad wiring that could start a fire, would I be required to take it apart and solder myself? What if the DVD player were just defective? I still would not be required to fix it. The maker or a tech would do it at the makers expense. Liability for paid-for software should be no different. Note: paid-for software does not include closed sourced software that is free of charge. Basically, if you pay for a product, the maker of that product should be financially responsible to a certain extent.

Re:Why not?

[thedbp]

I have to buy special "Macintosh" software, and if I add any third-party product (like memory or disk drives), Apple won't service it, even if I'm paying for the repairs.

OK, name one operating system that doesn't require applications to be written/compiled specifically for it. Name one operating system that you can run Mac, Linux, Windows, Solaris, and OS/2 binaries on natively. Can't think of any? That's what I thought.

And Apple WILL service your machine if you add RAM and hard drives. What you stated is an outright lie. If your 3rd party devices are the cause of your problem however, why should apple fix/replace components that they didn't supply? Are you going to go to Dell when the Crucial memory you bought goes on the fritz?

You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about.

Re:Why not?

[Trelane]

Nobody forces anyone to buy or use a Windows computer. They do it because they're cheap and easy.

A terrible gross simplification. People buy windows for those reasons, along with:

1. They don't know anything else
2. They're afraid of trying out something new
3. They're uncomfortable if they're not with what they know best
4. They fear losing data in the change
5. Everyone else is sending them Microsoft-specific files and they fear losing compatibility (e.g. Mac Office vs Doze Office, all those cute IE plugins)
6. They fear losing application availability, since so much software is Windows-only or works best with Windows
7. They fear losing hardware compatibility because their hardware or hardware they want is Windows-only
8. The people who give them tech advice only know Windows
9. That's what the businesses use, so that's what others taught them (schools, home)
10. That is what their business uses, so they want to stay fluent or that's what the company told them to buy (it sometimes happens that the company gives you money to buy a PC, with such strings attached)
11. They can't find a good, reliable PC with another OS (e.g. it's not a Trusted Name Brand they're familiar with or they can't find a PC that suits their needs and runs something else.

The list goes on and on. To believe that people choose windows just because it's "cheap" and "easy" (many would dispute both; indeed the reasoning behind the reasons above is contentious while the reasons are real) is to be naiive in the extreme.

Re:Why not?

[AstroDrabb]

If he bought a Ford and by DEFAULT the radio only played the Ford station, but could easily be changed if one wanted to.

Yes, however that Ford Radio(tm) had no dials so Ford owners had no easy way to know that there are other stations. Also, for the more technical that do find out about other stations, when they go to remove their Ford Radio(tm), they find out that only the face plate can be removed and the radio itself must stay, otherwise the engine won't start.

Bashing only makes the basher look stupid

[Blitzenn]

What are you suggesting? Maybe that Microsoft engineers had not ought to look at other browsers? Should they move forward blindly? Or is it that you are afraid they will take something they see and make it better? Isn't that what makes any one product more salable than another, because they did the same thing better? Perhaps they should not release a security update? Would that make you feel better if they just didn't do it? Change can be hard, we all know that, to bad we will have to change a few things, I know how all of us hate to see change and progress in our industry, of course MS embodies that, that's why we hate them so much. I am glad we stopped fixing things and change in the linux world or linux would be just like MS and we would have to hate that too! Come on! Let's apply the same set of rules and standards of judgement to everyone.

About time...?

[aoptik]

I have to agree many end-users are dumb, but as a Computer Scientist we some times think too technical and less end-user. Many people that work for microsoft are very talented people. I am sorry to say it is the management within M$ that is the problem. Maybe it is a start with Service Pack 2 now but lets look at the end-user and standards many organizations put in place. IE for example is an abomination to web standerds not only it is seems to be completely unmantained as much as it should be but there are also many other problems wrong with IE. Back to the end-user (eg. my gf for example is not going to switch to fire or opera I tried!!! Sorry but people are used to it.) It is the responsibility of M$ to start getting on the ball with IE. On the other hand, I am happy with SP2 it will sting but that is how upgrades should be if they are good. Example I worked for 2 years in Networking and found that everytime we upgraded something would break if it was critical we would delay the upgrade to our production side of our networks and even then their can be problems. I am happy that m$ is seeing they have to balance end-user and security with this update ... may be there is some hope to see a standard compliant IE in the near future.

Insight into a MS developer's mind...

[sapgau]

I checked the MSDN article and they show an example of how to detect if your browser is running SP2 or not, talk about thinking in double negative!!!

var g_fIsSP2 = false;
function browserVersion()
{
g_fIsSP2 = (window.navigator.userAgent.indexOf("SV1") != -1);
if (g_fIsSP2)
{
//This browser is Internet Explorer in SP2.
}
else
{
//This browser is not Internet Explorer in SP2.
}
}

"IF you don't find an entry for SV1 THEN it means is SV2 OTHERWISE is SV1"

phew!!!

Everyone is happy

[BubbaJonBoy]

"listing everything that will be affected by the the updates to Internet Explorer in Service Pack 2. This will be particularly important to developers who use ActiveX controls, pop-up windows and file download counters in their websites..."

Like the trojan, spyware, and virus writers.

Let the nightmare begin

[billcopc]

It is TOO LATE for MS to fix their browser, because they should have done this years ago before even starting to work on the hundreds of stupid little patches for so brutally specific hacks they almost had to be originated by the user itself. 3/4's of the world's largest web sites will now break with SP2, because anyone with an iota of web talent has learned to work around the shortcomings of current MS browsers. Just killing the ActiveX popup would have been more than enough to relieve 99% of users' woes.

I'm just pissed now that I'll be hacking HTML day and night when this thing hits prime time, because my breadwinner is on the line. I'd rather see all the ignoramuses flock to Mozilla Firefox, but since they're ignoramuses they probably never leave MSN unless their 12-year old script kiddie is present to create a bookmark for them. URLs are rocket science to the common luser.

Bottom line question

[krygny]

Can ActiveX be made secure *AND* functional at the same time? I don't see how. Therefore, ActiveX does not contain vulnerabilities, it is one.

Why, right here of course!

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/catalog/default.a spx?subid=22&xslt=categoryl3&pgn=252fda7f-510d-47c 3-b381-c5b6878331ba [microsoft.com]

MS doesn't seem to consider browsers to be "utilities", though.

aQazaQa

Re:Why not?

[fwarren]

Why did AOL send out floppies and CD's with their software on it?

So people would have a choice.

Because you could not expect that a computer came with software that would let you go on the internet or hook up to an on-line service.

---------

Re:stop spinning

[aixou]

So let me get this straight? If you use and like Microsoft Windows software, you're stupid?

Gah, I'm sick of these posts. They all follow the same pattern -- "Microsoft Windows users are the stupid and unwashed masses, let's not cater to their stupity".

Home PCs are quite new in the world, and didn't really take off until the nineties. A fair majority of the world did not grow up with computers in the home, and if you're anywhere over 30, odds are that you didn't get your first PC until after you became an adult.

People in their sixties, for example, might not have gotten their first PC until they their life was already half over. Are they idiotic for unquestioningly using Windows? If you grew up your whole life without computers, went to college without them, worked for decades without them, lived without them until you were in your fifties, why do you deserve to be called stupid for not being an expert in them.

There a lot of things that you are most likely not an expert in, but does that make you stupid? No. Perhaps the lock on your front door is easy to pick. Would I be justified in robbing your house, and leaving a note saying how stupid you are for using that brand? Maybe a safe that you have in your garage is of low-quality. Does that make you part of the stupid and unwashed masses if someone opens/steals it?

Fact is, not everything we use can be "best of the best" or "most secure", we use what we can because it works. Microsoft software works quite well and is certainly adequate for most people, but it does not mean you're "stupid" if you use it.

Re:Why not?

[DunbarTheInept]

I don't think the number of IE-only sites are the reason for Microsoft's browser dominance. They are the result of them.

Neither one of those explanations tells the whole story. In reality it's a recursive circle. IE-only sites exist because IE is popular because IE-only sites exist because IE is popular because IE-only sites exist...

The first "base case" of this recursion was Microsoft making sure that IE exists on every single installation of Windows. That made web site developers think "If I develop for IE, I get most of the users, if I develop for something else I don't. Even if a user of Windows prefers something else to IE, I know that at least they have IE available as a fallback when they can't use my site in Netscape." (Of course the notion that it is good to develop for *all* browsers is alien to a lot of people).

The actual quality of IE versus the competition is irrelevant to this scenario.

That's what Automatic Updates are for

[tyrr]

By default Windows has Automatic Updates turned on.
And this is the feature you are talking about.
They are going to your computer and updating it.
It may not work but it is there and if Microsoft improves it to the level where your computer updates itself prior to catching a worm (or removes a worm and updates) they complete what you are requesting here.
They definitely have intent to address it.