Mozilla Foundation Seeking Switch Success Stories

maggeth writes "mozillaZine has a story about how the Mozilla Foundation is looking to know if any organizations have switched to Mozilla products. Is your organization among them?" Can anyone point out an example of a library system switching? Lots of public libraries use PCs set up as kiosks running a web interface to their catalogs, and they all seem to use IE -- so, no tabbed browsing.

Unfamilliarity

[toetagger1]

The reason why you only see IE on public computers is b/c it is the most compatible browser in terms of usability (I mean in the case of it actually functioning, even so that is rare). I bet that any library with public computers that uses mozilla would have to hire an extra person to show people the advantages. Now if some people from the /. crowd would volunteer an hour every week and do this, I'm sure you will find some open arms somewhere in your community. What a great way to spread open source!

Locking down Mozilla?

[propellor_head]

For a site running Active Directory, IE can be locked down completely through group policies. Does anyone know if it is possible to do similar thing with Mozilla (ie. Default start page, proxy setttings, etc)?

Libraries

[JoshuaDFranklin]

Lots of public libraries use PCs set up as kiosks running a web interface to their catalogs, and they all seem to use IE -- so, no tabbed browsing.

Having just been looking into setting up one of those library kiosks, I can tell you that's it's because all the easy-install products are built with IE. There are lots of websites about how to set Mozilla up in a kiosk mode, but they invariably involve hacking JavaScript and messing with lots of configs. That takes too much time for anyone but the largest library systems. It's much easier to buy a $30 product like Fortres or Cybrary.

We need an easy download and install kiosk Mozilla, preferably also with an OS lock-down tool to make the catalog PCs as maintainence-free as possible.

Re:The Switch has been Made

[Anonymous Coward]

The biggest thing they were impressed with is that 99% of the spyware/ad-ware just doesn't work on it because the coders of those products only code for the dominant browser (IE crap-ola).

Each time you convert someone you're bringing Firefox one step closer to being the dominant browser. Then what?

A small success

[toxic666]

We have about 5% Mac users in my organization. All run Firefox as a browser and a few run Mozilla products as IMAP mail clients.

It's an apples and oranges comparison, because the Mac users are a bit more the geek than Windows users; they are capable of understanding a browser interface and I don't have to walk them through the most basic end user tasks. Not a blanket endorsement of Mac, simply because those users are (as previously stated) a bit more the geek.

I'm trying to get all the applications we develop web-standardized so I can eventually ditch the whole MS schtick -- accessible from compliant browsers an linked to open formats.

It ain't easy Ringo, but I'm trying.

Re:Unfamilliarity

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason why you only see IE on public computers is b/c it is the most compatible browser in terms of usability.

I very much disagree that IE is more usable than Moz or Fox. Most people I've converted don't even know they're using a different browser, and on a kiosk the user isn't going to have to worry about the differences like downloading or configuration because they will probably just be surfing anyway. Is it work trading security for a tiny bit of perceived usability?

Re:Tabbed Browsing for Libraries?

[Anonymous Coward]

My thoughts exactly. Tabbed browsing is pretty lame- why waste time and development into duplicating a windows manager? That's all what you're really doing when you implement a tab-based browsing. Tabs save you absolutely nothing except some cryptic keyboard shortcuts that you can accomplish with the already existing window manager anyway. The amount of system resources that a new window consumes over a new tab is so nominal that suggesting that tabs will save huge amounts of resources is really absurd. All tabs are is another way to display and organize information and a way to confuse users.

the switch

[mastergoon]

At my school library, I work as a semi-admin (well, I know all the passwords and help out a lot). Most of the stuff I end up doing is removing spyware. I installed Firefox on every box, but nobody was using it, and the spyware continued to pile up daily. As a last result, I replaced the firefox icon with the IE icon, and renamed it to "Internet Explorer." Everyone started using it, and I heard no complaints.

This is probably an evil way of doing things, but people are set in their ways, once they switch they like it, but getting them to not just use their same old browser is difficult.

Re:We're all success stories

[starshot]

Unless they've vastly improved MyIE2 since I've last used it, the "interface" is a huge mess. I will admit it had alot of function to it, but only useful to someone more technically inclined. The "average joes" you refer to would probably immediately shut it down in terror.

Re:Tabbed Browsing for Libraries?

[Patik]

Why does tabbed browsing keep rising to such prominence as a must-have feature more than simple standards-compliance and reasonable security does?

Because you can show Joe Sixpack tabbed browsing and he'll say "cool", but if you start blabbering about standards and security (and he actually understands) he'll say "so what?"

Hook them on the popup-blocking and tabs, then sheer numbers will force web designers to shift to supporting standards.

Re:Unfamilliarity

[maxbang]

Point and click is point and click. Most people don't do anything else with a web browser at all. Anyone who can point and click in IE can definitely do the same in mozilla/firefox/opera/whatever the hell lets you click on a url.

Re:The Switch has been Made

[Kremit]

Each time you convert someone you're bringing Firefox one step closer to being the dominant browser. Then what?

Then I can finally design sites with proper CSS and transparent PNGs, without hacks/workarounds.

Re:Courtesy of Ellen Feiss

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

I can remove IE from my system. Behold!

$ rm -rf ~/.cxoffice

Re:Library

[Lehk228]

well a content filter belongs on a proxy server anyways, so browser/OS shouldn't matter

Re:Library browser use

[DeepHurtn!]

Most patrons are barely capable of using existing public-access terminals let alone a multi-tabbed browser.

Heh, perhaps, but it's not like using Firefox is any more complicated than using IE -- casual users may not use the extra features such as tabbed browsing (hey, most of them might not even notice that it's not IE), but the advantages of using Firefox will still be there (security, the extra features for those who knows the software, and most importantly, freedom. Libraries just seem like the most natural home for free software. Conversely, libraries dependent on proprietary software just seems...wrong, somehow).

Additionally, the majority of catalog lookups are single-item queries--I'm not convinced that throwing a better browser at them would significantly enhance their library experience.

Sure, but some people also use libraries as their only net connection (particularly for e-mail, I'd imagine). These people deserve a proper browser too.

Re:Problem with Mozilla ...

[omicronish]

... in a public library, or any public place, is its lack of integration into Microsoft's active directory.

I second that. Integrate Mozilla and Firefox with Active Directory and you'll start seeing large deployments on Windows networks. Currently I can easily change IE security settings on all computers on my network with a couple mouse clicks. And somewhat related, I can also install programs that provide Windows Installer (MSI) packages with a couple mouse clicks. Luckily MSI support is listed in Firefox's Bugzilla (and was almost made blocking for 1.0), so hopefully it'll be soon when an official Firefox MSI is released.

It's actually pretty easy to create an MSI yourself if you have Visual Studio.NET (and maybe WiX, but I haven't tried), but some administrative rollout tools would be nice to augment MSIs. What'd be really great is MSI transforms that install additional plugins, so I can for example install Firefox on every computer in a Windows network and install Adblock.

Re:Locking down Mozilla?

[rsilvergun]

Yeah, but you'll get two copies of the software for the same money. Plus the option of writing your own sys admin tools and telling sun to go to hell if the need arises.

Re:The Switch has been Made

[RollingThunder]

Then the more actively developed browser (Firefox) will still be better than IE, which has been left to languish except for the most critical bugfixes.

Re:Unfamilliarity

[JessLeah]

You've obviously never tried to show Anything-But-Microsoft to a typical management type. I once had a boss tell me she wanted to use a "normal computer" when I offered to let her use my browser... which was Netscape.

Couldn't you just skin firefox...

[rsilvergun]

with a 256 color skin? If there isn't one already, it shouldn't be too hard to make. The MSI installer shouldn't be too hard to write either. Installing Firefox is basically just extracting the files and adding a few short cuts. Isn't the MSI api designed to make stuff like that easy?

MARK PARENT as TROLL -1

[nv5]

How does a complaint about running SETI@home on Linux relate to this thread about Mozilla????

Mozilla is bloatware

[mnmn]

Except for its latest incarnation Firefox. I used to use netscape 3.0, and from then on, hated its bloatware develelopment into what became Netscape 7. I used IE during this time, which itself competed in the international Hall of Bloat competition, but was second to Netscape, and later to Mozilla.

Mozilla started out as a free Netscape, with ALL the browsers features. That was the big mistake. Noone can wait 15 seconds to load a page, or fork out $$$ for more memory to run a simple browser, IE stayed a little closer to the 'balance' during this time, making itself more palatable to the ex-Netscape crowd.

Then came along Opera. They understood the game, and sold exactly what the public needed. During these days of running highly bloated spyware-infested applications on ever-faster CPUs, opera was a refresher. Everyone took notice.

And now, the team whose products I hated for so long blew my mind.

First I installed it on windows. It worked. It took little memory and never froze. Thats not like Netscape or IE at all. Then I installed it in Linux. It just worked. I didnt even have to wrestle with the source code. It even allowed flash plugins designed for netscape/mozilla.

That gave me the idea I could possibly put my sun Ultra5 and RS/6000 to good use, both of which lacked a good browser for basic usability. Thats when I realized the Mozilla Foundation has put its house back in order. They've produced a fast efficient and secure browser that compiles and runs anywhere, and only uses the CPU cycles it needs (almost). Just what all software should be like.

It has taken almost a decade for the software producing world to realize Bloat=Bad=No Profits. N A free piece o code like firefox will set a trend, hopefully even with Microsoft, whose Win98 is still used around because its smaller and faster than WinXP.Now why was that so difficult?

Re:The Switch has been Made

[linzeal]

Well than we wait for microsoft or someone else to catch up and switch to that. Isn't that how most of us began using IE, when netscape just wasn't cutting it?

Re:Unfamilliarity

[TC (WC)]

It sounds like you don't have firefox set as your default browser. Those things shouldn't be happening. If, in firefox, you go to Tools -> Options and then look at the general options section, there should be a button to press that'll set it as the default.

Re:The Switch has been Made

[ryen]

There is no doubt that Mozilla products and even Linux in general will be targeted as its popularity increases. *now* is the golden time for these communities to beef up on their security across all platforms.
No matter how sooner or later it happens, there is no time to waste as Microsoft most likely did with IE 6.

Re:Exactly: Arcane processes equal frustrated user

[lintux]

When someone asks how to do something in Mozilla or Linux, the answer is often one of two things: "Why would you want to do that?", or it's something like what we have here: "hacking JavaScript and messing with lots of configs."

Well, had to do things like that once to get a FF extension written by some Windows user who hasn't heard of file permissions installed.

But can you name me just one feature available in IE (apart from rendering non-W3C compliant pages) that isn't available in Mozilla/FireFox without hacking a .js file?

IMHO, having to edit a .js file to activate a non-standard feature isn't any worse than having to edit some registry keys... (Which is, AFAIK, an almost daily activity for many Windows users.)

Re:Courtesy of Ellen Feiss

[Colonel Angus]

People who drive BMW's still like to check out Ferarri's when they drive by.

Re:Courtesy of Ellen Feiss

[cyborch]

But seriously, if your girlfriend won't let you look at porn you need to make a choice, her or porn and give up the other.

I love my SO very much, and would rather not loose her. Especially not over something as trivial as my browsing habits. That said I consider my browsing as something personal. My SO rarely touches any of my computers, and when she does she has her own login, which kind of eliminates all cache/history/privacy issues. I also maintain a diary in my home directory which I'd rather not have her read. With all these privacy issues out of the way I could browse all the porn I'd like to without her ever knowing about it.

It seems to me that we are still individual creatures even though we share a relationship. There are things which are mine alone, and things which are hers alone. Neither of us see any reason to try and change that. While we share a lot of things, some things are still private. That is the way it should be. Let me have my porn in peace. While my porn needs dwindled conciderably when I met my SO they are still mine, and I would like to keep them among the things she does not interfere with. Browsing habits, personal diary, are among the things I'd like to keep personal, YMMV.

But seriously, if my girlfriend sets up any kind of ultimatum where she asks me to choose between her and something (anything) whe better be prepared to loose me. She is basically saying that our relationship isn't more important than my [browsing habits, nose picking, whatever]. If she thinks so little of our relationship that she is willing to compare it to [browsing habits, nose picking, whatever] then the relationship is going downhill fast anyway.

"IE Only", so I had to spoof it too.

[dpilot]

Perhaps one of our bigger enemies in "the browser wars," cloaking as the other guy.

So let's pretend that Mozilla/Firefox/Opera all together get 75% share, but 90% of them are cloaking as IE. To the folks gathering statistics, Mozilla/Firefox/Opera will still appear to have a paltry 6-7% market share, not worth messing with. IE will still appear to dominate.

The same argument is made about WINE, and was made about WinOS2.

Re:Courtesy of Ellen Feiss

[ByteSlicer]

I have also heard of people running mozilla from a USB key!. I am going to try that one myself

Make sure you don't put the cache folder on the USB key, or it will dramatically shorten its life (since it's flash technology with limited erase/write cycles).

Re:We CAN'T switch - FIX THE CALENDAR

[Anonymous Coward]

"Use Evolution . . . "

Um, no. It's not cross-platform (meaning, "my Windows users can't use it").

More significantly, I've never found a Free server-based calendar-sharing tool that's not web-based. Schedule+ was wonderful (except that it tended to break a lot) for our uses. Outlook would be pretty good if it didn't require the Exchange server. All I want is a Schedule+ replacement, and the OS community just hasn't delivered. (Like an earlier poster said, I wish I was an uber-programmer so I could create this app.)