Follow Slashdot blog updates by subscribing to our blog RSS feed

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Windows Operating Systems Software Bug

Last Words On Service Pack 2 542

thejoelpatrol writes "So did Slashdotters call this one? Windows XP SP2 seems not to be so secure after all. A Register reporter goes in depth to find out just how safe a fresh install is. He provides a list of which dangerous ports are left open and which services are left on by default. I guess now we know why Microsoft's security timetable is 10 years." Reader ack154 writes "ZDNet is reporting that many Dell Inspiron users are reporting an extreme performance decrease since installing Windows XP SP2 - decreases as much as from 2.6ghz down to 300mhz. Dell claims no responsibility, claiming it is 'externally loaded software' and they don't support it. In the mean time there has been a fix posted on Dell's forums, which rolls back the processor driver." Finally, Marxist Hacker 42 writes "Amid complaints of too much XP Service Pack 2 coverage on ZD Net, David Berlind writes that Service Pack 2 deserved the scrutiny it got- and charges that it failed to live up to Gates' Trusted Computing Initiative." Finally, Microsoft warns that installing SP2 on a spyware-infested PC is a bad idea.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Last Words On Service Pack 2

Comments Filter:
  • by ebsf1 ( 689864 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @06:56PM (#10154008)
    I don't get them moaning that there is too much scrutiny being given to this. It is going to affect 90% + of all the computers in the world.
  • So basically: (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Sheetrock ( 152993 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @06:58PM (#10154025) Homepage Journal
    SP2 doesn't patch every possible security flaw for now and forever?

    Because I wasn't expecting that it would, but apparently somebody is. Unrealistic expectations also lead to insecure implementation.

  • I don't get it (Score:4, Insightful)

    by WD_40 ( 156877 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @06:58PM (#10154027) Homepage
    I don't get why Microsoft insists on leaving so many services enabled by default. So many of them the average home user will not need, and like the reporter from The Reg said, if a sys admin needs those services, it will be trivial for him to enable them.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 03, 2004 @06:59PM (#10154036)
    Now all I need to do is go down to the grocery store and buy my copy of the Inquiror and I'm all set for news.

    Tell me again why people other than rabid Microsoft haters read that garbage?

    Of course SP2 isn't completely secure...neither is *gasp* Linux *gasp*. Nothing plugged into the Internet ever will be.
  • Easy Windows (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jals ( 667347 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:00PM (#10154045)
    You Could say that if you disable and enable everything mentioned there, configure your machine so it is secure, you should be OK. But the problem with that is Windows is meant to be the option for the user who doesn't want to be dealing with configuration and settings to get their computer working.
  • Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Marxist Hacker 42 ( 638312 ) * <seebert42@gmail.com> on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:02PM (#10154065) Homepage Journal
    To some extent the Reg Reporter was just FUDing- if you truly turned off everything that article said to turn off, you'd lose a lot of functionality.

    Having said that- I was surprised by his port scan of a SP2 machine, since my own tests at ODOT showed NetBios inaccessible after SP2 install, killing the ability for SMS to see the machine (one of the reasons that I'm NOT allowed to do testing on the real network for SP2).
  • Re:So basically: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dirvish ( 574948 ) <(dirvish) (at) (foundnews.com)> on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:02PM (#10154067) Homepage Journal
    Every currently known security flaw would be a good start. Eh?
  • by braindead ( 33893 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:02PM (#10154069)
    CPU driver? CPU driver? What on earth is a CPU driver?

    I mean, a driver is something that tells your computer how to talk to some piece of hwardware - say a modem. It maps from a common API (say, the windows API) to the specific API of the device (say, use Int21 with ax=3 to hang up the phone).

    Are you saying there's a windows API to the CPU? Something like HWND add(HWN ax, HWN bx) ?
    That makes no sense at all.

    Someone please explain this to me.
  • Re:So basically: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wobblie ( 191824 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:04PM (#10154078)
    RTFA. The main gripe is that it doesn't follow braindead simple best security practices (e.g., not leaving services listening on the public net) , not that it doesn't fix all the holes.

    Many of microsofts security problems could be fixed by just following best practices, and the built in firewall doesn't do shit.
  • It's not THAT bad (Score:0, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:05PM (#10154084)
    Remember what was out there previous to SP2. Sp2 is a major improvement, and just like anything else, there's still room for much more. I will be installing SP2 on every XP computer I can because it may not be the holy grail of computer science, but it's better than not installing it.

    M$ spent a LOT of time and money on SP2 trying as hard as possible to make it a quality piece of code. Hell, my 400MHz laptop boots twice as fast w/ SP2 installed and I haven't had one piece of spyware install itself, and I was getting 3-10 a week before. Kudos to the guys at M$ who worked their ass off to make my ancient laptop a viable machine for years to come.

    And it IS a Dell.
  • ZDNet, huh... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Chris Mattern ( 191822 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:07PM (#10154093)
    > [Performance] decreases as much as from 2.6ghz down to 300mhz.

    I'm not going to place any faith in benchmarks generated by someone who thinks performance is measured in clock speed.

    Chris Mattern
  • by dastrike ( 458983 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:07PM (#10154097) Homepage

    My guess would be that it includes CPU model specific definitions for power management and other features that need to be activated in a certain way by the OS for them to function.

    This could also explain that the processor clocks it down as certain power management features do that to the processor.

  • by Adam9 ( 93947 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:10PM (#10154118) Journal


    Do you actually believe an article that has:
    "Microsofties say they were more worried about Linux a few years ago, when it was a truly free program, spreading on its own, from user to user, like a virus."

    The author insists on comparing Linux support costs to Windows product costs:

    "If the Linux camp simply manages to create an operating system that does roughly what Windows does for roughly the same price, what will be the point?"

    The author says the difference between support and the product is "semantics":

    "... Red Hat ... charges $799 to $2,499 for each server running Linux. That's not for the software, mind you, but for "maintenance." Semantics aside, you're paying for Linux."

    The author also drank some of the SCO Koolaid:
    "You might need to buy insurance to protect you against lawsuits over intellectual property rights. (One outfit hawks such policies for $150,000 year.)"

    Some other excerpts:
    " IBM and Novell are pumping millions of dollars and mountains of brainpower into development of a commodity operating system--they are re-inventing the wheel."

    Actually, I could just quote the entire article. I hope Daniel Lyons (author) got paid for his time in writing this press release for Microsoft.
  • Stop bitching (Score:4, Insightful)

    by maelstrom ( 638 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:11PM (#10154120) Homepage Journal
    Microsoft at least got some things right in SP2. Personally I usually run Linux. If you don't like it stop fucking whining and install Linux.

  • Re:So basically: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by GigsVT ( 208848 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:13PM (#10154133) Journal
    MS really is in a bind here.

    If they were to close off all those ports, they would risk all the clueless sysadmins screaming on MS forums that SP2 breaks everything, even basic windows sharing facilities.

    I think the main point here is that MS has tried to appeal to people by saying that it's easy to be a sysadmin, that anyone can set up a network and run it. Real sysadmins all over the place freaked out, with good reason. They were accused of being set in their ways, etc, etc.

    Now all those things that the skillful have said would happen, have happened. Rampant security problems, etc.
  • by Mordaximus ( 566304 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:13PM (#10154134)
    90%?? Your point is well taken, but unless XP SP2 also installs on 2000, ME, 98, 95 and under Wine, you've overestimated it's impact by a longshot.
  • by Psiren ( 6145 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:15PM (#10154148)
    I say it's a "massive step forward" because there are literally MILLIONS of windows machines which are never updated, don't run any firewall software, and which are directly connected to broadband ISPs. The people running these boxes truthfully don't know what they're doing in these matters.

    So if these machines are not updated, and the owners don't know what they're doing, what makes you think they'll install SP2?
  • by sparks ( 7204 ) <`moc.silibateal' `ta' `drofwarca'> on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:16PM (#10154156) Homepage
    Oh, they won't, no doubt about that.

    But I'm anticipating SP2 making it onto new PCs at some point soon.
  • Re:any time now... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by el-spectre ( 668104 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:18PM (#10154180) Journal
    They're still waiting for someone who wants to use it to be born...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:19PM (#10154183)
    ...Is that much of SP2 is designed to help protect users from themselves. The average Windows user has no idea what a firewall is and thinks a "precision date/time manager" is a pretty neat idea. He might even fall for those popup ads that look like message boxes. In this case, the extra warnings, popup blocking, automatic firewall, etc in SP2 are definitely very helpful.

    Also note that many of the "flaws" in SP2 still have to do with users' stupidity. "A program running with admin privileges can make the security center falsely report that the firewall is on" - well duh, but why did you download that program in the first place, and why are you running it as admin?
  • by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:22PM (#10154214) Journal
    It not thier fault or the universities fault.

    Perhaps not the first time you notice the problem, but after that, it's the university's fault. It's very easy to tell people to install and run adaware before installing the update...
  • Re:So basically: (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SlashdotLemming ( 640272 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:28PM (#10154252)
    I think the main point here is that MS has tried to appeal to people by saying that it's easy to be a sysadmin, that anyone can set up a network and run it.

    Ahh, but it is easy to be a sysadmin and setup a network in the Windows world. Good network? probably not. Secure network? probably not. However, it's going to be good enough for people to get their work done.
    I once saw a small company with a terrible network. The configuration was an abomination and security was lax. Everyone in the company drove an SUV or luxury sedan (Mercedes, etc...)

    If the bonehead sysasdmin somehow sticks up a firewall and figures out that spyware is bad, then that is golden. Sure they could get hacked and have sensitive data stolen and go into financial ruins, but probably not. They can get robbed or have their building burn down too, but probably not.

    Microsoft is good enough. Perfect? Far from it, but good enough. That's why they're the king.
  • Re:Correction (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Volmarias ( 705460 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:28PM (#10154259) Homepage Journal
    Because it's trying to start a holy war for a few cheap laughs. "WINDOZE SUX!!11LOLOLOLRLR!WTF" Can we collectively get over that now?
  • What crap (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rabtech ( 223758 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:31PM (#10154285) Homepage
    The writer of the article is full of it and obviously knows nothing about Windows.

    He claims that WebClient, DCOM, TCP/IP NetBIOS Helper, Secondary Logon, Remote Desktop Help Session Manager, Remote Access Connection Manager, DNS Client are all on or set to manual and should be disabled. Thanks, but I'd like to be able to use WebDAV, COM/DCOM, share files with a roommate/family member, use remote desktop from work, VPN into work in the first place, and resolve DNS hostnames thanks.

    I might also add that he rails on Microsoft not taking advantage of multiuser capability properly then recommends that Secondary Logon be disabled for home users! Without it, Windows can't popup when you try to install a program or run Control Panel and ask for an admin password to proceed... which makes using a non-admin account a pain in the ass.

    He also whines about these network drivers being installed:
    Client for Microsoft Networks, File and Print Sharing, and the QoS Packet Scheduler

    But perhaps he assumes everyone has one and only one PC in their home and has no wish to share files between them (yeah right). Oh, and you'd like to take advantage of QoS for VOIP or bandwidth throttling? Forget it if the driver isn't available.

    With "genius" insights like these I certainly wouldn't trust this yahoo to install a toaster oven, let alone an operating system.
  • Re:So basically: (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mythosaz ( 572040 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:35PM (#10154306)
    Ports 135-139 are turned off by default on NON-DOMAIN installs for XP2 at the firewall.

    Ports 135-139 are enabled by defailt when joining a domain.

    Windows Firewall is managable by DOMAIN POLICY.

    Complaining that they're enabled by default is moronic.
  • by gordgekko ( 574109 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:36PM (#10154317) Homepage
    I have to respectfully disagree. The average user can install two pieces of software that will protect them against the vast majority of online threats: a firewall and a virus scanner that updates automatically/scans email.

    For an added bonus: Installing Firefox and Thunderbird.

    That's it. You're done. The average user installs far more than two/four pieces of software and someone put together a CD of this stuff, all of which is free or OSS, with simple instructions you could teach anyone to harden their computer. Hell, I've taught people who know nothing about computers some basic security. Now they ask me reasonably intelligent questions about what they can do to further protect themselves.
  • Items worth noting (Score:2, Insightful)

    by elegie ( 681405 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:37PM (#10154326)
    1. It is likely that many users will be very inexperienced. Making things slightly more difficult for advanced users (i.e. having administrators explicitly enable services) could be better than relying on the expertise of users (i.e. they have to explicitly disable a number of unwanted services.) Perhaps an update could have different install options for users with different levels of expertise.

    2. It is possible to give a false sense of security if the security effects are very blatant while at the same time they mean little. Users might do something careless. Imagine a user who constantly gets alerts about "suspicious activity" on their system and decides to ignore them out of irritation...
  • by rokzy ( 687636 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:37PM (#10154327)
    I hate the parent kind of comment, but it invariably gets modded insightful.

    Just because A is insecure and B is insecure does not mean A and B are equal in terms of security.

    *gasp* *gasp* *gasp*
  • by gordgekko ( 574109 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:38PM (#10154335) Homepage
    As our overlords in Redmond love to tell us, IE is a part of Windows. Therefore a hole in IE is a hole in Windows.

    What about that software that uses IE APIs? Someone may not be running IE but they're still at risk because they are running software that is.
  • by eV_x ( 180493 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:41PM (#10154349)
    So let me get this straight.

    Many Slashdotters spends a good portion bashing Microsoft for security. What does Microsoft do? Take a good period of time to try to turn things around and release a secure product (SP2).

    Now a few people are saying security problems may still exist or that a few isolated people have had bad experiences with SP2 and people here bash SP2 as a failure?

    ARE YOU KIDDING ME? What planet are you guys from? Of course it's not PERFECT you idiots - no OS and application is, no matter how secure you design from the start or whatever overused bullshit line of rhetoric you want to use. mistakes will always be there and improvements will need to be made as the product grows.

    Saying slashdotters called it just shows that very few here WANT Microsoft to be secure because then it would take away your favorite hobby of nonsensically bashing an alternative to your OS of choice. You can't ignore the fact that SP2 did make MASSIVE improvements for many millions of people to make them more security aware and that is not a bad thing, even if it is a start.

    Sometimes I feel when I read this crap that most people want Windows to remain insecure only for their own selfish reasons and forget there are people on the other end of those machines. Why not praise Microsoft for at least making a step in the right direction? It's this attitude that doesn't help things one bit and only comes off as childish.

    And BTW, the Register article had nothing really incriminating against SP2 other than they disagreed with some of the services and firewall features. Yes the WMI hole is there but it requires more than just sitting the box on the internet. Yet many dotheads will assume this means that SP2 is just sitting open like Windows XP was straight out of the box.

    Here's a fact:
    Put a Windows XP box on the internet and it will get infected with spyware and other crap.

    Put an XPSP2 box on the internet and at least you're protected from that crap. Hell people, that's a MAJOR step!

    Anyhow, the Register is hardly a worthy news source for unbiased reporting. And the ZDNet guy even said "While this is not a complete list of what makes SP2 worthwhile, SP2 is worthwhile for the majority of Windows XP users". But again, let's be honest here - he's just a guy writing an opinion column, more heart than fact.
  • Re:Interesting... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by eV_x ( 180493 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:47PM (#10154388)
    Agreed.

    Suggesting that we turn off DHCP with a comment like "Unnecessary on most home machines" shows that someone is not in touch with the rest of the world.

    Maybe in L33Td0M you only run static IPs so you can connect by typing in l33T IP addresses instead of machine names, but the rest of the world doesn't know an IP address to save them.

    Comments like that show you have no clue, because the world is not full of command prompt users.
  • by Carnildo ( 712617 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @07:47PM (#10154389) Homepage Journal
    I use File and Printer sharing on my home network, but I've got it bound to the non-routable NetBEUI protocol, so it doesn't open any ports.
  • by gad_zuki! ( 70830 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:02PM (#10154467)
    My inspiron is acting fine too. A little snappier too.

    >So did Slashdotters call this one?

    No. They really didn't. Of course SP2 was going to cause *some* problems, but poo-pooing everything MS in a knee-jerk fashion doesn't help anyone and probably is keeping people from installing it, which is a real shame because:

    1. Firewall on by default. Power users can easily shut it off. How many Slashdot posts do we have that wish MS did this, but when they do suddenly MS is doing wrong. Yes an admin can shut it off even with an activeX control. Such is the life of running as admin.

    2. Nag screens for anti-virus and updates. Much needed.

    3. Better wireless interface. The old one wasn't so hot and this is a welcome upgrade.

    4. "Drive by installs" are not going to be as common as IE requires an extra step to install/download stuff and blocks pop-ups natively and by default. Man, how many slashdoot posts did we have about "MS should do something about pop-ups and click installs!" Well, they did. Sure, they didnt remove activeX altogether, but no one was expecting that.

    5. NX support for AMD 64. Wow.

    > Finally, Microsoft warns that installing SP2 on a spyware-infested PC is a bad idea.

    No shit. Installing ANYTHING on a spyware infested PC will cause all sorts of problems. Fighting spyware is what SP2 is trying to do. Give it time or at least introduce your friends and co-workers to a little thing called Ad Aware, especially if they'll never switch to FireFox. Face it, many people will never switch and will go to their deathbeds using bundled software.

    >So did Slashdotters call this one?

    Granted, if you take the negative approach to life 24/7 you will be right every so often or at least subjectively, but I feel these are much needed changes and will help technophobes better use their machines. MS can do things right. Yeah, break out the smelling salts...
  • by Deathlizard ( 115856 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:03PM (#10154473) Homepage Journal
    there was a ton of changes done all across the board and under the hood, but most of the ones you see are to prevent social problems.

    Microsoft as well as Apple and other companies understand more about the average computer user than most other software companies, especially when it comes to these particular rules:

    1) 99% of computer users do not know what they are doing
    2) People do not read unless they absoletly have to.
    3) You must create all user interfaces under the presence of monkey. In other words, if you cant train a monkey to use it then your wasting your time.

    The Security center for example, covers all three of these, it basically forces you to read it by prompting non stop, it's easy enough to train a monkey against and even a moron can understand that a big red blinking X covered shield means bad.

    Sp2 also brings these concepts to the activeX realm. Spyware becomes almost impossible to install through IE using them most common methods used today. basicially you load a spyware infested page, it then drops down the "oh no this page is downloading activeX" box, forces you to click on it and say download it, Reloads the page again which screws most browser hijacking from occuring because most hijackers don't reload in a browser refresh, then promps you again to make sure you really want to do this.

    They know they don't want people downloading this stuff, so they first force you to pay attention and read, then they actually break the #3 rule to purposely make it hard for John Q moron to install the scumware unless he absoletly needs it to survive.

    It also has to be noted that the firewall and automatic patching is ON and encouraged to be ON by the security center. regardless of what you think of the firewall it basically stealth's you from the net and it's better than wide open anyday, and if everyone was patching automatically we wouldn't have had half of the infected blaster and sasser systems out there.

    SP2 has flaws, basicially a complex virus could easily turn off the firewall, spoof the security center and go insane, but they did some under the hood things to deter rapid spreading and frankly I dont care which operating system your running, If a virus has root, or administrator or whatever is the highest access given by your favorite OS, Your Screwed because it will disable any protection you may have had and hapilly make you and your Net neighbor's life a living hell.
  • by aws4y ( 648874 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:04PM (#10154481) Homepage Journal
    The article explains that whil SP2 is a step in the right direction it still does not implement the simplest in security steps. Like disabling NetBIOS connections. Also the woefull practice of relying on the RPC damon for interproces communication. SP2 provides some minor userland utilities that most users don't understand and probly wont know how to use without adressing the underlying problem, winodws is not insecure by programming, its insecure by default.

    I think that most of us "in the know" will find that the step was not major, a major step would be to provide a locked down network configuration for XP and not rely on the user turning off services. Rely on the user to enable the services he or she needs, and force all users to run under unprivliged accounts. You are right that *nix is not more secure, its just more secure by default.
  • Busy Work (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Ridgelift ( 228977 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:11PM (#10154540)
    I find it amusing that Windows requires so much babysitting. OS Patching, anti-virus signature updating, anti-spyware scanning, rinse & repeat. And after awhile when entropy has taken too much of a toll on the machine, it's time to back everything up, erase the computer and reinstall the operating system.

    It's a computer for crying out loud! Why can't the process be automated so users can do other things?
  • Re:Interesting... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by EMR ( 13768 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:18PM (#10154586)
    And he also goes as far as saying you need to disable the DNS Client.. If you disable that you aren't getting any where on the 'net unless you go by IP address. Sounds like he's talking about an XP computer that is unplugged from the network.. and if that is so, there's no need for any networking services, and no worry about security issues except for viruses from floppies.. but who uses those anymore.
  • Re:So basically: (Score:3, Insightful)

    by eV_x ( 180493 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:20PM (#10154601)
    "the built in firewall doesn't do shit"

    If Microsoft had delievered a completely robust, all encompassing firewall product bundled in SP2, would you then gripe and bitch that was unfair and anticompetitive?

    Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's not strong enough or you're being unfair and bundling.

    Whatever, either way, saying "doesn't do shit" is pure BS - it DOES do "shit", it just doesn't do everything YOU want it to do (or what you read that others want it to do).
  • On the contrary (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SilentChris ( 452960 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:26PM (#10154624) Homepage
    For the machines we tested at work, the firewall actually blocked more than was necessary. We were surprised to find the admin share totally invisible even though the computers were on a domain.

    Methinks something is borked with this anaylsis. A lot of these services aren't accessible on the boxes I've tested with (both on and off domains).
  • by Commykilla ( 107585 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:31PM (#10154649) Homepage
    There are two sets of articles on XP SP2:

    1 -- "XP SP2 BREAKS TONS OF APPS!!"

    Essentially, Windows is *too* secure and now breaks tons of programs -- so don't install it!

    2 -- "XP SP2 IS TOTALLY INSECURE!!"

    Too many Windows services are on, which means lots of apps -- including harmful ones -- are still able to run, which means XP SP2 is totally insecure -- so don't install it!

    You can't have life both ways. Yes, added security will break *some* apps, but most will still work. Yes, it's not as secure as, say, a OpenBSD installation where you turn on one service at a time -- but end-users aren't expected to go through turning on service by service and tweak firewall settings every time they install a new app!!

    By the way, for corporate deployments, most of that stuff (services, firewall, etc) can be administrated through Group Policy, anyway, so the default settings apply much more to home users than corporate ones who can pick and choose what services, firewall settings, etc to allow on their Windows PCs.
  • by jwsd ( 718491 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:32PM (#10154656)
    I would expect a technical site like this would have a more well-informed discussion. This article can be considered another FUD attack against Microsoft. By just listing a bunch of open ports the author thinks as unnecessary, the article declares SP2 unsafe. One of the biggest things in SP2 is to replace all executables serving any ports with code that can handle external malicious attacks robustly, buffer overrun attack etc. To declare SP2 unsafe, the author has to give at least a couple of examples that can crack the new enhanced binaries. But the author didn't have the proper knowledge and didn't do his homework either. He is just too eager to declare SP2 a failure so that other uninformed people can buy his conclusion at face value.
  • by argent ( 18001 ) <peter@slashdot . ... t a r o nga.com> on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:33PM (#10154661) Homepage Journal
    DNS Client, automatic. Unnecessary on most home machines. Should be disabled by default.

    He's too kind.

    They should call it the "DNS on crack" service.

    The only reason I can see for it existing is for sites where DNS is non-existent or badly broken, so that names pulled out of WINS, browsing, or by casting entrails or yarrow sticks can be used to let some applications run that would otherwise freak out. The problem is that when you do have working DNS it will, occasionally, freak out and return randomly wrong information.

    Unless you're at a small business using a misconfigured Windows-based external firewall AND you're not willing to spring for an Active Directory server, turn this baby off and disable it. You'll be glad you did.
  • by Flexagon ( 740643 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @08:55PM (#10154756)

    As an OEM that sells systems bundled with XP, Dell, I believe, is obligated to support systems whose users apply service packs to the OEM-installed OS. There was some flak about this some time ago when some OEMs simply referred their customers to Microsoft, and I believe that they were reminded that they picked up this obligation as one consequence of their OEM arrangement. This support site page [dell.com] gives the particulars for Dell. In my experience, Dell acts like any other Windows sysadm: they wait until their own internal testing is done before they add it to the list of supported service packs, so that they can simultaneously publish a list of any issues (such as required driver updates). Until then, you take your chances (which have been minimal for me, though I tend to stay in the Latitude line, even for home systems) and rely on the forums. My reading is that Dell isn't done with its testing, and the particular spokesperson is only half right: not supported until their testing is complete and it appears on the above page.

  • by ribond ( 149811 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @09:42PM (#10154932) Journal
    This reads a bit like the Republican take on Kerry's record. It's so like accuracy that it can be deceiving. Here's what I saw from just a glance...

    Automatic Update is off by default...

    ...it's a true statement, but their comment goes on to say it should be off... so what is wrong with having it off and prompting users to change state if they want to?

    NetMeeting Remote Desktop Sharing, manual. Unnecessary on most home machines. Should be disabled by default.

    The service is not enabled... it is in a state where applications that rely on it can start it if its necessary, but that would be performed by the user. Have it not enabled is not a security risk....

    Remote Desktop Help Session Manager, manual. Unnecessary on most home machines. Should be disabled by default.

    I love this service. I love that it is not enabled by default, but must (as above) be initiated by the user. Again, there is nothing wrong having this service in a state where the user can enable it without confusion...

    Secondary Logon, automatic (enables starting processes under alternate credentials). Unnecessary on most home machines. Should be disabled by default.

    This service is what allows fast-user-switching (multiple console logons w/out logging out). It is an integral part of the XP ui and absolutely should be enabled.

    The chief weakness of a single-user system is that whoever sits at the keyboard is the administrator, or root in UNIX parlance, capable of taking any action he pleases. He can install programs and delete files or wipe out whole directories; he can alter system settings with the same privileges as the owner.

    Newsflash -- Windows is not *nix, its user base is not a *nix user base, etc... Excuse the cliche, but "Mom" is not going to login as a "user" then launch setup apps in root/admin context -- this is just not something that "mom" can wrap her head around.

    the user decides whether or not to allow provider X or Web site Y to run code on his machine, based on pure guesswork and vague impressions.

    For example, Internet Explorer allows a user to choose websites from which potentially dangerous content like JavaScript and ActiveX controls will be trusted. Content from 'untrusted' websites can be assigned reduced privileges.

    This approach is wrongheaded from the start.

    I'm calling bullshit on this one. Pick -- the end user should be smart enough to work in the user context until he/she needs admin access, then they should go use it for that specific context, etc... but they shouldn't know if they trust a site or not? And by default there is nothing in the "trusted" sites list, so the user is going to be prompted for each download attempt. If they don't like the "zones" idea that's fine, but complaining about the implementaion is different from that implementation being unsafe.

    "Empty Temporary Internet Files folder when browser is closed" is not selected. (We would leave it enabled.)
    "Installation of desktop items" gets a prompt, and is enabled for trusted sites. (We would require a prompt at all sites.)
    The pop-up blocker is enabled, but disabled for trusted sites. (We would leave it enabled.)

    More of the same. We get it, you don't like the "zones" thing. There is no difference between what the review wants and what IE already does in this case. There are no trusted sites by default and the user is going to have to go out of his/her way to get some there. If you like reading some activex riddled crap page you should be able to view the site without being bothered every 2 seconds. You have that right.
    As a matter of fact, can you imagine the user experience if these setting

  • Re:ZDNet, huh... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jimmy_B ( 129296 ) <jim.jimrandomh@org> on Friday September 03, 2004 @09:50PM (#10154974) Homepage
    ...except that in this case, the problem was a broken driver for CPU power-saving which, literally, reduced the CPU's clock speed from 2.6ghz to 300mhz. So in this particular case, it's a valid measurement.
  • by Teahouse ( 267087 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @09:53PM (#10154990)
    I guess an opinion by a former customer is dangerous.
  • windows 98 se (Score:2, Insightful)

    by earthstar ( 748263 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @09:56PM (#10154998) Journal
    I say this again!
    Why should everyone use the latest OS . aka the win XP and suffer all these problems?
    Except a few s/w that work on XP only , 98 does it fine.
    what reay ou going to lose out if runnin g a in98 se - patched up system?
    Dont tell me " bad looks" - aint like XP feel....thats garb.

    plus virus writer these days target XP mainly...98 escapes...example: Blaster.
    Think about it.

  • Why SP2 sucks! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday September 03, 2004 @10:16PM (#10155107)
    My biggest gripe with SP2 is that it changes settings you have already made. A proper patch should retain the previous settings you were using wherever possible, but SP2 doesn't.


    It automatically, re-enables, MS's worthless firewall, and changes Automatic Update to download and install without any user input regardless of what you had it set for already.


    In addition, the security center is an annoying piece of sh!t. I just got done setting up an elementary school lab with 35 new PC's, and once Automatic Update kicks in and downloads SP2, I'm gonna have to make a return trip just to reset every goddamn thing back to the way I had set it.


    That is by far my biggest gripe, MS simply doesn't think about computers that are going to be used in a multi-user environment outside of a family room. I feel sorry for school admins across the country who are gonna have to deal with this shit at every school with XP machines. Thankfully, I only have to deal with one school.


    I wish OS developers would include a special User account specifically designed for "Students".

  • Re:Slowed Down? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mike_sucks ( 55259 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @10:32PM (#10155191) Homepage
    So, the clean install that flushed all of the worms, viruses and sypyware really helped, hey?

    And now that you have SP2 installed, it will take longer than evar!11! to get bogged down again.

    Yay111!1
  • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Friday September 03, 2004 @10:32PM (#10155192) Homepage Journal
    If you're not intelligent - you did say the average user, right? - you should also install some spyware cleaners to protect you from yourself. Actually, that's not just for people who aren't smart, even people who ARE smart occasionally get something nasty on their computer, especially the ones who don't know jack about computers to begin with - which is most of them. To most people the computer is a tool, not the wonderland that we love to play in. For most people, having to work on their computer is like being alone somewhere unfamiliar at night. If it's your turf you can figure out some way to exist in it; If you're trained in surviving in that kind of place you can generally do okay barring extreme circumstances; but otherwise it can be fucking scary. Don't forget that to most of these people having to use a computer without help is like making the river run in Deliverance and the nerd up the street who can help them is the guy on the porch with the banjo.
  • Re:I don't get it (Score:2, Insightful)

    by AcornWeb ( 770294 ) on Friday September 03, 2004 @11:06PM (#10155375) Homepage
    Yeah, he wants the DHCP service off. Oh wait, what if someone gets a DSL modem and doesn't have a clue about how to set a static address? Guess they have problems/

    DNS client service, isn't that for making DNS lookups work? Anyone know?

    The WebClient service is used in the .NET framework if you want to get to any website using your .NET app.

    The author also wants the firewall to bother the user everytime anything goes in or out. Sorry, you can't do that to users who doesn't understand what those apps are. I just fixed a computer that had had the DHCP client denied access to the DHCP server because the guy who was clicking the buttons didn't know what the app was (and he shouldn't have to!).

    First, anyone with physical access to the machine can reconfigure it and possibly destroy important files, whether intentionally or accidentally.

    Um, can't anyone with physical access just use a magnet intentionally? I mean granted, I don't think it is a good idea to run as root on Unix, but still! I'm not for having users be Administrator on Windows (and especially against the Administrator having a blank password when you boot up in safe mode), but this guy is making up complaints against Microsoft.

    JavaScript is enabled. (We would leave it disabled.)

    Uh huh, and have tons of websites break (including GMail and other popular webmail sites).

    Conclusion
    I'm not a M$ fan by any stretch of the imagination (I use a Mac and highly recommend that other people get one when they ask me), but this isn't an article, just complaining that Microsoft doesn't turn off everything that makes their operating system semi-user friendly.

    Good grief, what a bunch of FUD.
  • Re:Last Words? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rd_syringe ( 793064 ) on Saturday September 04, 2004 @12:05AM (#10155637) Journal
    It's a total flamebait article. This sort of article would have gotten modded down if it was a comment. It's just an attempt to bog people down with anti-"M$" links. I could create an article with just as many positive SP2 ariticles--and believe me, the response to SP2 was very positive and not at all this phony letdown that Slashdot is trying to put out to its readers--but it would never get posted on the front page of Slashdot.

    The entire summary is inflammatory. "Did Slashdotters call this one?" Well, gee, I'm so surprised that Slashdotters think SP2 is a failure. And then it even links to the widely criticized "Windows Secure In 10 Years, Says MS" article.

    I am fully convinced there is a smear campaign going on against Microsoft that goes beyond merely being a pro-Linux site--as in, it is going beyond normal levels of criticism. I suspect it has to do with the fact that this website is corporate-owned, an entity of OSTG which is a company that makes money off of selling OSS and Linux products. The rate of anti-Microsoft articles has increased dramatically with the release of SP2, and headlines/article summaries are often wildly exaggerated or even completely false. If Microsoft owned a tech news site, and the articles it posted were inflammatory and exaggerated in the same way Slashdot's are, you know that Slashdot itself would be all over it with criticism! But Slashdot's misleading "news" is given a pass because a lot of people here have chosen this website as the haven for their frustrations with Microsoft. This place is the Ain't-It-Cool-News for IT nerds.

    I'm sure many of you will disagree, and I respect that because I used to like Slashdot too back in the 90s when it was still a good place to find cool science and computer news, but since the corporate buyout, it has been a major source for three major things--anime news, anti-Microsoft news, and OSS project releases. In between those are scattered various articles intended to generate page hits by inciting emotions in the majority viewpoint of Slashdot--anti-capitalist, anti-corporate, left-leaning computer geeks (which makes it all the more amusing that Slashdot is actually corporate-owned, displays large banner ads, and sells subscriptions). That's why we get "More Automated DMCA Lies" articles--as if an automated system was an actual live being that could "lie" to you, when it's really just some automated system that made a mistake--and anti-RIAA, anti-SCO, and anti-copyright articles. We all know the formula for those articles.

    Finally, it does not surprise me one bit that this article was posted by michael. Plenty of others have said enough about him. Even Jon Katz's articles were at least genuine in their subject matter. Michael's are almost always a cynical backslap against someone. Let's not forget his all-caps "ANTI-INTEL" troll in the 64-bit chip article, which would have been modded down had it been a normal comment and not an article on the front page.

    If you disagree, reply and let me know why you do. But this whole obsessive-compulsive desire to bash and bash and bash Microsoft is just boring me to death. This is supposed to be a LINUX site, remember? Isn't there anything cool going on in OSS lately? I miss the old articles we used to get on Slashdot, and the fascinating discussions that used to take place (as opposed to the karma point games that go on now as everyone plays comedian and makes +5 Funny jokes that aren't funny). Do we really need yet ANOTHER SP2-bashing article?
  • by EastCoaster ( 583032 ) on Saturday September 04, 2004 @01:06AM (#10155866) Homepage
    I never install a service pack right away. I wait awhile for the people to opine on it.
  • FUD?? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mindflow ( 557496 ) on Saturday September 04, 2004 @02:27AM (#10156083)
    I for one think XP service pack 2 is a good thing. Now really, why is the security issues in service pack 2 so blown up, all earlier service packs has had security issues too?? Service pack 2 is about to make serious changes to the web, simply becaus popup's are blocked. Even Joe Average will have a popup blocker in 6 months time. It makes me wonder if there could be some anti-popup-blocker people spreading a whole lot of FUD about this package? The days of popups might have come to an end, and some people might not like that.
  • Agree with you (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Donny Smith ( 567043 ) on Saturday September 04, 2004 @04:46AM (#10156406)
    Excellent post.

    I have complained about editorial policy in several of my posts, but (silly me) haven't ever suspected that ownership of Slashdot could have to do with what gets posted here.

    I have also complained about low quality FUD troll articles by michael and suggested that articles be moderated, too, so that we can filter out that cheap propaganda that pollutes the site.
    Of course, it seems it'd be "complicated" (suddenly it became hard to tinker with /. source code - where is that often lamented upside of the free software), but cheesy color schemas are never in short supply.

    This year has been really bad.
    I my opinion, some 40% of all articles and 80% of all comments are of miserable quality. Sometimes one has to browse four pages of comments to find 3-4 insightful posts. And as the parent post says, you can't get rid of worthless comments because totally stupid articles get modded insightful or funny.
    As articles can't be modded or filtered ("michael filter" anyone?) either, it's becoming quite unbearable.

    Sadly, that is the new Slashdot - perhaps it's "If you don't like it - leave!", so I've been thinking if I should still visit Slashdot.org any more or perhaps join one of commercial tech sites with quality articles and forums.

    Truly pathetic.

    P.S. In past months I've been getting to moderate ONLY anonymous posts - now I have started to suspect that happens because I've voiced my dissatisfaction too many times... Anyone else gets only to moderate only posts by anonymous cowards?
  • Re:Last Words? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Badanov ( 518690 ) on Saturday September 04, 2004 @09:27AM (#10156998) Homepage Journal
    You're kidding, right?

    An operating system which dominates 90+ percent of computers, yet the writers can't criticize it without it being regarded as flamebait?

    Get a grip. MS makes billions of dollars from their products, which happens to cause billions of dollars of damage worldwide. As long as their apparent disregard for security runs rampant over the internet, writers will be crawling up MS's ass to criticize it.

Say "twenty-three-skiddoo" to logout.

Working...