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Technology Science

Supercomputers Race to Predict Storms 184

pillageplunder writes "CNN has an interesting article on how different supercomputers from around the world are working to predict large storms tracks. The 3 days it takes now has been cut in half. Cool read."
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Supercomputers Race to Predict Storms

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  • Evacuate! (Score:1, Interesting)

    by teiresias ( 101481 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @11:40AM (#10266788)
    I could make a joke about this helping evacuation plans, but really it's just good news what with hurricanes pounding the southern part of the U.S and the Caribbean. A more accurate ETA of storms would be tremendously helpful to business and civilians alike.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 16, 2004 @11:44AM (#10266846)
    Why not just distribute the load(a la SETI). Seems like it would be a lot less costly and a lot more efficient.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 16, 2004 @11:45AM (#10266848)
    If easy-for-geeks-to-build home weather sensors were available, this would be a cool SETI-at-home-like project that would let hardware geeks have fun with distrubited computing too.
  • NOAA (Score:5, Interesting)

    by garretwp ( 790115 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @11:49AM (#10266895)
    I currently work for NOAA at a facility called GFDL. We house some of the super computers here. I currently operate and control the computers and its deffinitly a treat to be able to work with these fast machines. We have some of the worlds fastest computers here and they compete very well with the earth simulator. We also have some of the top hurricane guys working for us as well. It is good to see that the techonology that we use is getting publicity. It will inform everyone how things are done and where they get the information from.
  • Fortran, yay! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by green pizza ( 159161 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @11:50AM (#10266911) Homepage
    You don't know too many scientists-turned-programmers do you? Fortran is still alive and well in scientific circles. Companies like IBM and SGI still write and optimize Fortran compilers for their newest CPUs. Even Intel recently released a major update to their P4 and Itanium2 Fortran compilers.
  • Re:Fortran? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by GraWil ( 571101 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @11:54AM (#10266954)
    They are written in Fortran because that is what they have always been written in. Keep in mind that we are talking of at least tens of thousands of lines and in some cases a few hundred thousand lines of complicated math. This isn't one of those things you port to C or C++ in an afternoon. Also note that most of these models are written by scientists (physicists/chemists) not computer scientists. Most groups now have programmers on staff to help with problems but scientific programming isn't always about having elegant code; more often then not, we care about the output and Fortran does just fine. Yes, we do mix in C where appropriate.
  • by Council ( 514577 ) <rmunroe@gmaPARISil.com minus city> on Thursday September 16, 2004 @11:56AM (#10266993) Homepage
    You can see the current predictions by each model at any given time here:
    http://www.weatherunderground.com/tropical/trackin g/at200406_model.html [weatherunderground.com]

    The NHC discussion of the model guidance for each storm is here, under 'discussion' for each storm:
    http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/ [noaa.gov]

    They explain why they're agreeing with or discounting each model in their overall forecasts.

    Generally, it's difficult to find much prediction of hurricane tracks that doesn't come somehow from the NHC. This isn't because there aren't independent analysists, but because they try not to send mixed signals, which might lead to people not evacuating when they should. The raw information from the computer models is the closest you get to dissenting opinions, afiak.
  • You have to wonder.. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by dfj225 ( 587560 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @11:56AM (#10266996) Homepage Journal
    To a casual observer of the weather, like me, it seems that the paths of the hurricanes are little more than extrapolations of the current path with a slight bend to the east. For the hurricanes this year, it seems that time and again the models proved wrong for last minutes changes to the storm. I know from family who lives on the west coast of Florida that many people were caught off guard by Charlie. I really think that it is probably impossible to accurrately predict the path of a storm. I mean I could take a look at the motion of the storm and guess about as accurately as the models guess. My same family that was caught off guard by Charlie headed to Orlando when Ivan was about a week away, but the storm didn't land near their house. If you think about it, 3 days notice is not enough to have every person in a metropolis patch up their houses and move to higher ground. Some might say that everyone with the possibilty of getting hit by the storm should prepare, but imagine having to board your windows every 3 weeks or so only to be missed by the storm. It would be even worse if you evactuated on the same schedule. This would make it very difficult to live a normal life. Honestly, the prediction of storms like hurricanes needs to get much better, but I doubt that it ever will.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 16, 2004 @12:01PM (#10267047)
    Has anyone ever wondered why the weatherman is always wrong after just a few days? Chaos Theory dictates that supercomputers won't help, unless all the initial conditions are known. It has been said that if there were sensors spread accross the upper atmosphere spaced a yard apart, the data taken from an initial reading would break down in less than 6 hours. You can't predict the weather. But modeling it is cool as heck.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 16, 2004 @12:06PM (#10267123)
    3 day stormcasts are about twice as accurate as 40 years ago they tend to be off on average by only 400 nautical miles. 5 day forecasts are completely worthless and neither of them ever predict where the storm actually goes anyway so it kind of doesn't matter.

    Personally living in New Orleans (10 feet below sea level) it's comforting to know that the forecasts are only off by 400 miles now.
    /SARCASM

  • See the models (Score:5, Interesting)

    by theCoder ( 23772 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @12:06PM (#10267124) Homepage Journal
    As a resident of Florida (who's so far been pretty lucky with respect to the hurricanes), I've taken a keen interest in these models. The best place I've found to see them is at Weather Underground [wunderground.com]. Each listed storm has a "Computer Models" link at the end. See

    Ivan [wunderground.com]
    Jeanne [wunderground.com].

    Since the pages auto-refresh, I've just been leaving them up in a tab in Mozilla and checking them every once and a while. Though the models aren't always accurate and tend to change a lot, they kind of give you a feel for where the storm is probably going to go.
  • A long way to go... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by fafalone ( 633739 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @12:10PM (#10267167)
    Living in Florida I've spent a whole lot of time looking at track modelling in the past month. For hurricane Frances at one point, the cone of error of eye movement was over 90 degrees, as in they had no clue which direction the storm would be moving an hour from when the model was made. In Charley, their predictions were over 100 miles off for the eye only a couple hours before landfall (which really sucked for me since the eye hit land only 30 miles away). And since that happened, the margins of error for Frances and Ivan have been much much larger as they realized their path predictions still sucked.
    What's more, one of the local TV stations in-house track forcasting program gave a dead on accurate prediction several days before it hit while the National Hurricane Center was saying Tampa. With Ivan, at one point one of the major models (BAM Medium) predicted the storm would change directions from WNW to NE instantly at a point 3 days away.
    Perhaps media forcasters should be evaluating which models are most accurate for the current storm instead of just reporting on a numerical average of computer model coordinates, since often outlying models pick up on something the other ones missed. A few places do that, and often predict the path with a much smaller error than the NHC, whose predictions are purely based on averages of models of which none are always accurate to begin with.
  • Re:Fortran, yay! (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 16, 2004 @12:12PM (#10267201)
    And Fortran should be alive and well. My experience with it is near nil, but what little experience I did have left me with one very distinct impression. This is the language for math. When using Fortran, it was like I was one step removed from the actual math. Being so low-level made things a lot simpler. If I had a lot of math to do, Fortran would be my language of choice to do it.
  • by fafalone ( 633739 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @12:19PM (#10267302)
    5 day forcasts from the NHC have lately been given with a margin of error routinely approaching 800 miles. Now I wasn't following this stuff years back, but I can't imagine it being "much" more accurate as that implies that couldn't guess within around 1200 miles. The 3-day forcast for Frances at one point when the storm was only moving 4mph had a error cone at an angle over 90 degrees, they didn't know whether it would be moving SW or N less than an hour from its current location. Great accuracy there!
  • Re:Fortran? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by flaming-opus ( 8186 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @12:24PM (#10267372)
    Much of fortran code is written by scientist rather than programmers. HOWEVER, big hpc labs like this employ dozens of programmers (most with master or phds) to write the software for the scientists. I don't know about the navy labs in particular, but big DOD and DOE labs have optimization teams with several dozen programmers. These are the sort of people who present at the SC conference.

    Even academic hpc facilities employ teams of experts to optimize code for the scientists.

    You're right that there is a lot of inertia keeping people in the fortran fold. But the software vendors are also helping this by having really strong fortan libraries.
  • by Tyndmyr ( 811713 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @12:29PM (#10267448)
    For straight up mathmatical processing, Fortrans about as fast as it gets(Disclaimer: Among major high-level languages, not counting assembly, something special cooked up for you, etc) C++ is fast, but it sacrifices a little bit of speed for flexibility. Java...well, Im anti-java, so lets not go there, but what else you gonna use, visual basic? The older languages are still quite good at what they were designed for.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 16, 2004 @12:32PM (#10267484)
    I found a site where the guy predicted how Ivan would move and when, about 9 days early. I don't know what kind of software he uses, but it is kinda freaky. He has stuff predicting weather for next year, and he claims that his track record is right on http://www.docweather.com/ [docweather.com]
  • Re:Twister (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Orp ( 6583 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @12:57PM (#10267805) Homepage
    I'm modeling supercells that produce tornadoes (well, almost) using supercomputers... does that count?

    A talk I just gave a few days ago on this is found at the below link. Both in OpenOffice and PPT format. Note: the mpegs in that directory are BIG (1024x768) but they are very cool animations of supercells (raytraced with POV-Ray) and tornado-like circulations.

    http://research.orf.cx/uw2004 [research.orf.cx]

    Leigh Orf

  • Re:Fortran is faster (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Fess_Longhair ( 695896 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @02:24PM (#10268926)
    Nicely put. I would add that since it's now very easy to wrap Fortran with a high-level scripting language like Python (via f2py), we have the best of both worlds (highly optimized, but also object orientation, GUIs, easy access to OS, etc.)
  • by reporter ( 666905 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @02:44PM (#10269136) Homepage
    The Earth Simulator (ES) could model the movement of hurricanes. The ES is merely a large message-passing multiprocessor. Each node has a powerful vector processing unit for matrix operations.

    There is nothing in the architecture of the ES to prevent it from performing the calculations for modeling hurricanes. The only possible problem might be that the software for doing the modeling has not yet been ported to the ES.

    Anyhow, what is interesting to note is that the modeling of hurricanes is a critical operation of the supercomputers. Another critical operation is command control on the battlefield. In such critical operations, which supercomputer would you use?

    At the end of the CNN article, it implies that the new system for modeling hurricances is a super-multiprocessor powered by the Power4+ from IBM. In a sense this deployment of the IBM supercomputer says a lot about the Power4 and IBM technology. When your life or the lives of millions of people depend on the calculations performed by a supercomputer, which supercomputer manufacturer and processor would you choose? Apparently, the clear choice is IBM and Power4.

    There is no mention of Pentium IV or UltraSPARC. Not surprising, really.

  • Re:Earth Simulator (Score:3, Interesting)

    by PeterChenoweth ( 603694 ) on Thursday September 16, 2004 @02:46PM (#10269162)
    No, a lot of the simulations are run in Boulder, Colorado at NCAR http://www.ncar.ucar.edu/ [ucar.edu], the National Center for Atmospheric Research. I've visited there many times, and watching those old Cray computers' cooling stacks and monitors over a decade ago is probably why I'm a programmer now. They have an amazing grid of supercomputers (http://www.ucar.edu/research/tools/computing.shtm l [ucar.edu], and (they used to anyway) have free tours everyday.

    The place even looks cool http://www.ncar.ucar.edu/eo/what/arch1.html [ucar.edu]

    Very cool place indeed, if you're in the area.

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