Please create an account to participate in the Slashdot moderation system

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Graphics Software IT

Adobe Releasing New Photo Format 422

salmonz writes "Toronto Star just posted a story that Adobe is releasing a new digital picture format; the Digital Negative Specification,or DNG. " Supposed to be use in raw photo formats; without the lossyness of JPEG.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Adobe Releasing New Photo Format

Comments Filter:
  • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

    by avandesande ( 143899 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:25AM (#10362128) Journal
    This is to provide a unified RAW format for digital cameras. Right now all the manufacturers have their own formats and you cannot process them unless you have special software on your machine. I dont know why they mentioned JPEG because it is not a raw dcamera format.
  • Re:Why? (Score:3, Informative)

    by remahl ( 698283 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:26AM (#10362135)
    PNG is not very good for photographic data. The compression phase also requires significant processing (zlib), so it would be impractical for a digital camera to PNG compress a multi-megabyte image on the field.
  • by Thinkit4 ( 745166 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:26AM (#10362138)
    A raw image is what directly comes out of the CCD. In fact it uses less storage than the bitmap that can be produced from it. But it's even better, as with it you can customize white balance and such after the picture has been taken. I use the raw images exclusively on my Canon S45 (it's a difficult feature to find). The problem appears to be in standardization.
  • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Ed Avis ( 5917 ) <ed@membled.com> on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:29AM (#10362177) Homepage
    A conventional 24-bit image file will have eight bits for red, green and blue for each pixel. But very often digital cameras don't have separate sensors for each pixel; they have alternating R G B sensors in a kind of chessboard arrangement, and then interpolate the missing values. This interpolation happens when you go from raw format to the final output, and it can be done by the camera itself or by a photo manipulation program on a PC.

    A raw format file, while still storing all the data that has come off the image sensor, can be one third the size of a PNG because it knows that the first pixel has only red channel information, the second only green and so on.
  • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Binary Boy ( 2407 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:30AM (#10362198)
    This format is not about replacing PNG, and no PNG does not provide the capabilities to do what DNG is about.

    DNG is about unifying the mess of "RAW" formats - camera-specific proprietary file formats containing raw dumps of unprocessed sensor information and shot metadata.

    Furthermore, DNG is not immediately about getting camera manufacturers to use it themselves - though that would be the ideal. DNG is a bridge format - something you can convert all of your RAW files to for the purposes of long-term preservation/storage. It is open and documented, and based on TIFF so there are existing reader libraries that can handle the basic format (they will need extensions to do anything with it of course).

    Adobe has provided DNG Converter which will enable anyone - even non-Adobe users - to benefit from the ongoing R&D Adobe does to support the variety of RAW formats out there. This will simplify the task of building quality RAW converters by allowing small developers to focus on excellent RAW processing and not have to exert to support the many camera RAW formats out there.

    Sorry, I just woke up so I'm not going to touch on everything - but this is a major announcement whose importance will become more clear in time.
  • by buro9 ( 633210 ) <david&buro9,com> on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:31AM (#10362208) Homepage
    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0409/04092711adobe_dn g.asp [dpreview.com]

    Adobe Systems has today announced a new unified public format for raw digital camera files and a free software tool, Adobe DNG Converter, for translating raw photo formats into the new .DNG format, which is compliant with the Digital Negative Specification. There is no standard format for raw files, which vary between manufacturers and cameras. Digital Negative Specification will introduce a single format that can store information from a diverse range of cameras. An updated Adobe RAW File Converter adds support for DNG as well as several other cameras.

    Click here for more information on Adobe DNG [adobe.com]

    Press Release:

    Adobe Unifies Raw Photo Formats with Introduction of Digital Negative Specification Free Converter Tool Kick Starts New Digital Negative File Format by Translating Raw Formats into Easy-to-Use, Archive-Ready Files

    SAN JOSE, Calif. -- Sept. 27, 2004 -- Adobe Systems Incorporated (Nasdaq:ADBE) today introduced the Digital Negative Specification, a new unified public format for raw digital camera files. The company also launched a free software tool, Adobe DNG Converter, which translates many of today's popular raw photo formats into the new .DNG file format, compliant with the Digital Negative Specification.

    Raw files, which contain the original information captured by a camera sensor prior to any in-camera processing, have become popular due to their promise of greater flexibility and image quality. Until today there has been no standard format for these files, which vary between manufacturers and individual cameras. The Digital Negative Specification solves this problem by introducing a single format that can store information from a diverse range of cameras. Technology leaders, major customers, and professional photographers today also endorsed the new specification (see separate quote sheet).

    "Professional photographers and other creative professionals are moving to raw camera workflows because of the outstanding creative control they get over digital images," said Bryan Lamkin, senior vice president of Digital Imaging and Digital Video products at Adobe. "However, clients and publishers have difficulty working with disparate raw file formats and nobody can be sure that today's raw formats will be supported ten years from now. Adobe customers asked us to work on a unified, public format for raw files and that's what we've delivered with the new Digital Negative Specification."

    Serious photographers want to store raw files in long-term image archives, because -- unlike standard JPEG's and TIFF's -- these files represent the pure, unaltered capture. Current raw formats are unsuitable for archiving because they are generally undocumented and tied to specific camera models, introducing the risk that the format will not be supported over time. The unified and publicly documented Digital Negative Specification ensures that digital photographs can be preserved in original form for future generations. The new .DNG file format also simplifies digital imaging workflows for creative professionals who today have to juggle multiple file formats as they bring raw images, from different cameras, into print and cross-media publishing projects.

    New Specification Built on Existing Standards

    The Digital Negative Specification is based on the TIFF EP format, an accepted standard, and already the basis of many proprietary raw formats. The power of .DNG format lies in a set of metadata that must be included in the file to describe key details about the camera and settings. .DNG-compliant software and hardware can adapt on the fly to handle new cameras as they are in

  • Re:Why? (Score:4, Informative)

    by mookie-blaylock ( 522933 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:32AM (#10362218)
    It's very simple: People who deal with content creation (that is, content created for commercial consumption), especially print, don't like JPGs or other lossy formats. PNG, being an indexed-color format, is not the end-all of graphics formats, slashdot ranting aside. Most designers want TIFF files (and PCD wil do, in a pinch). JPGs, no matter the quality, tend to have a nasty habit of exhibiting some noise in their output. That's totally unacceptable for print.

    And, again, PNG is totally the wrong format for this. You'd be taking a huge hit upfront in terms of indexing -- or your images would be outrageously huge.

    How DNG differs from TIFF, I don't know. I would have thought TIFF would be the obvious answer. (TIFF, for those who don't know, aren't compressed but can be losslessly compressed)
  • Re:Newsflash (Score:5, Informative)

    by Albanach ( 527650 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:34AM (#10362240) Homepage
    Corporation creates useless file format standard. Everyone grumbles, but switches over.

    Actually no it's not useless, this would be very useful, especially if the format is open. Remember Adobe also cerated PDF - they know about making money from open standards.

    You see proper digital cameras - especially the ones that cost $10,000 and are used by photojournalists and the like all let you save the image in raw format - that's a copy of the actual data that was captured before any processing. By doing so, you can take the image home and adjust it - white balance, satuaration and everything else - with photoshop et al. Rather than letting the camera make the adjustment and possibly messing things up, you know you still have the raw data so you can undo your changes. Trouble is, all the camera manufacturers ahev their own standard for raw data, so to get it into photoshop, the gimp or whatever you want to use, you must first run the raw image through software provided by your camera manufacturer - and you can bet that software won't run on Linux.

    So this is good, 1 because it encourages interoperability and 2 because it further opens up proper image processing to Linux users.

  • Re:Yep. (Score:2, Informative)

    by DoubleEdd ( 178052 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:34AM (#10362244)
    Postscript is probably subject to more controls than PDF. Take the use of Display PDF rather than Display Postscript in OSX for example - Ars Technica mentions the licensing fees [arstechnica.com] that Apple would have had to pay. Surely we're better off with pdf than gzipped ps?
  • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Nexx ( 75873 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:34AM (#10362249)
    Yes. Currently, CCDs and CMOSs support 12-16bits/channel. That can be encompassed in PNG's 48bits/pixel. However, newer generation gear already samples at 18-24bits/channel of RGB, which superscedes what PNG can do.

    Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't PNG assume all pixels have RGB information? Oftentimes this isn't the case in digital cameras (unless you're using a Foveon sensor). Google "Bayer Pattern" if you're interested.

    The article is light on details, but I don't think Adobe is aiming this solely towards digital cameras (even expensive digital backs for medium-format cameras), but also towards medical imaging and what not. There is a reason why ImageMagick can be built with 24bits/channel and up.
  • Re:Why? (Score:2, Informative)

    by theparanoidcynic ( 705438 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:35AM (#10362258)
    A good reason for it is that currently the only commonly used lossless image format (BMP) is uncompressed and enormous.
  • Re:Maybe (Score:5, Informative)

    by polecat_redux ( 779887 ) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [hciwmaps]> on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:39AM (#10362295)
    My questions is, can existing cameras be updated to the new format, or will the manufacturers just want to sell the new ones.

    I'm not horribly concerned if Nikon doesn't release an update for my particular camera since Adobe will be providing an image conversion utility that supports many of the proprietary raw formats.
  • Re:Why? (Score:2, Informative)

    by Pirow ( 777891 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:40AM (#10362319)
    PNG was designed as a replacment for the GIF format, it's not designed for storing photos, PNG is good for images with large areas of contiguous colour and sharp edges such as cartoons and logos. PNG can handle true colour fine, but in my experience it creates massive file sizes for photos, which you don't want in an environment where space is extremely limited such as on a digital camera.
  • by sammy baby ( 14909 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:41AM (#10362322) Journal
    Adobe has put up a page regarding the new format [adobe.com] on their site. But for those who couldn't be bothered to read the original article and are posting questions like, "Why bother..."

    There are currently two image formats in wide use for high-end cameras. RAW is the format of choice for people who demand high-quality shots with no compression artifacts. Unfortunately, different camera manufacturers have implemented their RAW encoding differently, which means that two cameras that can save to RAW don't necessarily use the same format. As a result, professionals often have to convert between their vendor's RAW format, and that used by their software.

    The other format is good old JPEG, but as you probably know, JPEG is a lossy compression [webopedia.com] algorithim, making it unsuitable for those who demand a certain level of quality in the shots as captured.

    The new format is designed to provide the same advantages of RAW, without the cross-vendor incompatibilities. Adobe is calling it "a publicly documented and readily available specification," although I didn't see any kind of license data around the download of the spec (which is on the Adobe page listed above).
  • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Binary Boy ( 2407 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:43AM (#10362339)
    DNG *is* TIFF.

    First, PNG is not always indexed. However, it would have required massive extensions to PNG to turn it into something capable of being DNG, and TIFF is already well placed for extension (TIFF is a container format - most people think of it as a simple image format, but it is very flexible and capable of adaptation).

    TIFF supports a huge variety of compression modes, including uncompressed, JPEG, LZW, and ZIP, and a variety of color modes.

    DNG is an extension to TIFF, to allow the additional properties of a RAW to be expressed without losing the efficiencies of RAW (linear data, typically one color channel per pixel until processing). Just as a for instance - you can take your DNG into most any TIFF reader today and it will at the very least be able to read the preview embedded in the DNG without any mods to your TIFF library.
  • by theskeptic ( 699213 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:44AM (#10362349) Journal
    Did you even RTFA? Oh, I forgot.. this is slashdot.

    For more details about this announcement, go to dpreview.com

    Adobe announces new format for raw files [dpreview.com]

    The Digital Negative Specification is being posted to the Adobe Web site free of any legal restrictions or royalties, enabling integration of the .DNG file format into digital cameras, printers, and software products.
  • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

    by JimDabell ( 42870 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:44AM (#10362351) Homepage

    standardized JPEG, which professionals don't want to use because it's lossy.

    The JPEG standard includes a lossless option too; professionals don't want to use JPEG because lossless JPEG is inefficient, not because it doesn't exist.

  • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Binary Boy ( 2407 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:46AM (#10362376)
    It's an extension to TIFF to support, in a standardized way, the many unique variables that go into a RAW file. No existing specification could capture this range of unique data encoding and metadata without extension - DNG as TIFF was the logical choice for many reasons.

    This is not processing RAW into a TIFF - you can do that now with many tools. This is repackaging a RAW file into a new, universal RAW - this should open the RAW processor world to a new level of competition (as the greatest amount of R&D time was always wasted on reverse engineering RAW formats - something Adobe is now doing for you with DNG Converter).
  • by Midnight Thunder ( 17205 ) * on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:47AM (#10362379) Homepage Journal
    DP Review has the press release [dpreview.com], which includes the following description:

    The Digital Negative Specification is based on the TIFF EP format, an accepted standard, and already the basis of many proprietary raw formats. The power of .DNG format lies in a set of metadata that must be included in the file to describe key details about the camera and settings. .DNG-compliant software and hardware can adapt on the fly to handle new cameras as they are introduced. The new file format unifies conflicting raw formats, enabling the preservation of a pristine version of the original raw image and the metadata associated with it. .DNG is also flexible enough to allow camera manufacturers to continue to add their own "private" metadata fields.

    Adobe already has a page [adobe.com] on DNG. Its is a free format and the specs are right there on the page, so GIMP won't lose out.

    I believe the format is a) to save Adobe money long term (they don't have to support yet another specific sensor) and b) reduce headaches and complaints from the user. We'll just see how the camera companies and digital photography professionals react.
  • Re:JPEG-2000? (Score:2, Informative)

    by The Old Me ( 641450 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:49AM (#10362398)
    Also, there is a true-lossless compression option in JPEG2000, which is even more to the point for this story. For background info, old JPEG has a true- lossless option, but it has never been widely implemented-- Getting lossless compression right is one of the various things that JPEG2000 fixes.
  • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

    by lucifuge31337 ( 529072 ) <daryl@intros[ ]t.net ['pec' in gap]> on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:50AM (#10362410) Homepage
    Because TIFF doesn't do the job. This isn't another direct display format. It's a raw format. For example, the raw files from my Nikon equipment require processing before they can be displayed (FWIW, Photoshop CS already supports the nikon raw format - .NEF). Raw format files are nothing more than the the CCD saw....it doesn't take into account the dot screen or any filtering that is integral to the CCD...your processing software (whether it's in the camera or 3rd party like Nikon View [nikonusa.com], Bibble [bibblelabs.com], or something else) needs to apply color correction and actually interpolate the sensors on the CCD into the correct colors.
  • Re:JPEG-2000? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Florian Weimer ( 88405 ) <fw@deneb.enyo.de> on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:50AM (#10362411) Homepage
    What about using the new version of JPEG, for 'digital negatives'?

    There are no royalties, no licencing, it has 2x to 5x the compression efficiency, and it's inherently multiresolutional.


    Actually, Adobe did a very similar thing: they took the TIF format (the industry standard storing images with lossless compression) and added a few special fields, using the extension mechanism already provided by TIFF. As far a I can see, Adobe doesn't intend to charge royalties for DNG. It looks quite open -- even the DNG guide for manufacturers doesn't mention any licensing requirements.

    (Adobe's DNG web site [adobe.com] is already online.)
  • Re:Why? (Score:3, Informative)

    by magefile ( 776388 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:51AM (#10362420)
    I don't understand it either, but RTFA - they released it with no legal or financial strings attached.
  • Re:Why? (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:52AM (#10362424)
    This DNG is apparently TIFF-EP with metadata added. The metadata content seems quite reasonable and contain information about the camera which is basically irrelevant in any other context.

    The spec. appears to be unencumbered. Although there aren't bright yellow "FREE FOR ALL TO USE!" disclaimers, it does not bear any mention of a patent and it does state that the spec. is "free". Since it would be in Adobe's interest (as a market leader in photo editting software) to minimize writing kludgy compatibility code in the future, I don't see why anyone should assume that this offer is being made "in bad faith".

    Oh yes, there might not be all of this "OMG PATENTZ!" hysteria, if the posting had included this link [adobe.com] to the Adobe site, which features a pdf of the specification itself.

    Even more happily, the pdf was a simple one & rendered promptly under xpdf/gs.
  • Re:Why? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Zocalo ( 252965 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:52AM (#10362428) Homepage
    Because my DSLR produces ~10MB RAW files with 12bit/hue colour resolution which convert into ~36MB 16bit/hue colour resolution TIFFs? Or how about that those TIFFs only have a fraction of the flexibility offered by the RAW versions in post processing. It should be obvious that you need 3x the storage space, but if you've got used to rattling off shots at a rate of several a second, expect that to get slashed too.
  • Re:Why? (Score:5, Informative)

    by UnknownSoldier ( 67820 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:53AM (#10362434)
    > But very often digital cameras don't have separate sensors for each pixel; they have alternating R G B sensors in a kind of chessboard arrangement, and then interpolate the missing values.

    Couple of notes...

    That chessboard layout is called a Color Filter Array, usually arranged in a Bayer Pattern. [dpreview.com]

    Digital cameras these days are 10 bit in RAW mode.

    And some even have 4 color sensors. [dpreview.com]

    dpreview is THE site for camera buffs, much the same way avsforum is for us audio & vidio philes. Now if only I could find sites for other categories....

    --

    "Geometry is frozen music"
    - Pythagoras
  • Re:Maybe (Score:3, Informative)

    by polecat_redux ( 779887 ) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [hciwmaps]> on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:54AM (#10362456)
    So why do we need this solution from Adobe?

    Perhaps because it's an effective method to get everyone playing nice. There *are* other lossless formats that camera manufacturers could support (and I'm sure some do), but with no real direction, everyone would just do what suits them and there would likely be no common format between them. Adobe is just trying to help give the camera manufacturers something to agree on (barring other possibly nefarious intentions).
  • Re:JPEG-2000? (Score:3, Informative)

    by radish ( 98371 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:56AM (#10362481) Homepage
    But BMP is not raw. It may be raw from a display device's point of view but an actual RAW file is just the data as recorded by the CCD. This allows for all sorts of interesting post-processing (like adjusting white balance etc) on the PC which isn't possible after you translate to any bitmapped format (lossy or otherwise).
  • Re:Why? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Zocalo ( 252965 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:58AM (#10362508) Homepage
    Did anyone actually see a good reason for the creation of this particular format?

    Hell yes. Unlike with a raster image such as JPEG or PNG, the data from a camera sensor is most likely a Bayer array - alternating lines of Red/Green and Blue/Green sensors, rather than RGB triplets, so it's not so much RGB, as RGBG. (There are some varients/exceptions in the in sensors from Foveon, Fuji and Sony). There is also a lot of data specific to the exposure; duration, ISO, lens details, etc. which would need to be applied in camera before a raster image could be produced. With RAW, you can apply these settings after the event in Photoshop or whatever. Exposed the sky correctly, but got the ground off by a stop? No problem; "develop" the RAW twice and use the sky from one shot and the ground from the other for a much better result than "enhancing" the ground in an image editor.

    Yes, you could have most of this with a tweaked version of PNG and a bunch of ID3 type tags (and maybe that's exactly what Adobe has done, I haven't looked at the file format yet). The main benefit though is to make it very easy for data exchange and solve the nightmare situation whereby each new sensor has it's own RAW format. The state of play at the moment is a nightmare for vendors like Adobe who need to update their software for almost every new high-end camera release. Likewise for the makers of those "digital photo stations" that are cropping up like Starbucks, or their little brethren; the printers you can plug a camera into directly. With a standard like DNG to support you gain the much larger colour gamut of the RAW format and more flexibility in tweaking the image for a better print.

    Anyway, you can read the actual Adobe press release, or download a free (beer) DNG converter here [adobe.com] to find out a little more.

  • by sweede ( 563231 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @10:59AM (#10362522)
    I would say that upwards of 90% of the magazines, books, and other printed materials use JPEG images in their books for ALL non-photographic images.

    photographs are usually TIFF documents, but we've ran accross many customers who supply all of their graphics and photos as high-res JPEGs

    Adobe lockin v.s. Quark? you obviously don't work in a printing house. Quark is basicly the only tool used in creating anything for print. Quark can create Adobe PDF Files without issues from any other software we use.

    Now that i think about it, most of the software we use is based on Open standards from Adobe (Postscript, DSC(Document Structuring Convention), PDF, PJTF, JDF)

    YIDIWIP (Yes I Do Work In Prepress)
  • Re:Why? (Score:3, Informative)

    by metamatic ( 202216 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:00AM (#10362532) Homepage Journal
    PNG is also a container format. You can add whatever data chunks you like to it. They could easily have defined a raw data chunk for the PNG format.
  • by fyonn ( 115426 ) <dave@fyonn.net> on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:04AM (#10362575) Homepage
    well, jpeg is a processed image, what this format is designed to address is unifying every manufacturers raw image dumps. most medium to high end camera's offer a raw modew which gives you the data directly off the CCD or cmos sensor without any processing applied. this means that you can apply and vary things like white balance settings after the fact rather than getting it right when you take the shot.

    the RAW images basically give you direct data off the sensor and all the data about the cameras current settings, ie shutter speed, apeture, meter settings, focus settings etcetc.

    having a single format would allow all the image processing apps to only have to load up the DNG file, rather thn having plugin's for nikon's raw file, sony's raw file, canon's raw file etc. right now if you don't have a plugin then you have to process the image through the manufacturers image application which can be a pain and seems unnecessary. also what if you have another platform, are all the raw input filters available for a mac for example? for linux? with a standardised free format then all the apps will have access and no companies will have to pay licence fees to load in the data (which soemthing like the gimp isn't going to do).

    dave
  • Re:Why? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Tenebrious1 ( 530949 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:08AM (#10362628) Homepage
    professionals don't want to use JPEG because lossless JPEG is inefficient, not because it doesn't exist.

    Photoshop and PSP allow you to save files as lossless JPEG, but the only camera I know is the newest Canon digital SLRs. Most other professional digital SLRs and prosumer cameras only store proprietary RAW, then some level of lossy JPEG.

  • Less why, more how (Score:4, Informative)

    by Builder ( 103701 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:08AM (#10362635)
    I see a lot of posts asking why bother. What I'm more concerned about is how this could work ?

    Ignoring the differences in the various RAW formats between manufacturers, what about differences between two cameras from the same manufacturer ? What causes that and would DNG cater for it ?

    As an example, look at the Nikon D70 and the D100. Adobe had full support for the D100 with their ACR (Adobe Camera Raw) plugin. But when the D70 came out, we waited months for true compatibility with Photoshop (yeah, yeah, you could use the nikon supplied plugin, but that was worthless really).

    I'm guessing Adobe want this because in order to keep selling Photoshop to photographers, they have to keep amending ACR everytime a new camera comes out. But can a fixed standard cater for everything that Canon and Nikon will be putting in their cameras, and want to store in the RAW files 2 years from now ?
  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:13AM (#10362686)
    Adobe has posted a DNG Primer [adobe.com] online, describing some slightly technical details. Here are the key points from the document that helps to understand what makes the format useful:

    Image format: DNG is based on the TIFF-EP format, but DNG specifies the inclusion of a number of additional tags that let the converter properly interpret the raw file.
    Metadata: DNG enables inclusion of metadata in EXIF, IPTC, and XMP formats.
    Compression: Files can be stored as uncompressed (either bit-packed or padded to 16-bits per pixel) or with lossless JPEG compression.
    Color space: DNG fles are stored in a linear, nonwhite-balanced color space (usually the native color space of the camera).
    Interpolation: DNG enables file storage either in mosaic (CFA) form or in demosaiced form. Generally, a mosaiced file is preferred because it represents the original data the sensor captured and enables maximum conversion fexibility. It is also smaller than a demosaiced file. In some instances, however, saving a demosaiced file can improve compatibility, particularly if the camera sensor contains an unusual mosaic pattern that all converters do not support.
  • Re:Why? (Score:3, Informative)

    by akpoff ( 683177 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:14AM (#10362699) Homepage
    As others have mentioned this is about creating one RAW data format. The RAW data from the CCD or CMOS sensor is basically unprocessed information unlike PNG, JPEG and basic TIFF.

    When you shoot in JPEG and even in TIFF with any current camera the internal processor applies white balance, color, contrast, sharpening and other algorithms to the data and saves it in the chosen format, typically JPEG at anywhere from a 1:2 to 1:8 loss compression ratio.

    This is great for point, click, print. But for hobbyist and professional photographers this eliminates a lot of the post-shot production that can be done to the image later, even if it's a TIFF file. With a RAW image format you can apply those effects afterward, unapply them and generally tweak the output. My Nikon came with some software that allows me to set the white balance using the same algorithm the camera would do internally if I shot JPEG. But with the in-camera option if I don't like the results, tough. Sure, I can tweak it later in Photoshop but I can't fundamentally alter the effect. This is particularly frustrating for effects like white balance and sharpening. Having the RAW format, also known as the "digital negative", gives the photographer much more flexibility.

    Why do we need a universal file format? Because every camera manufacturer out there has a different one that programmers have to figure out and photographers have to put up with (not that professionals change kit all that often). With Photoshop CS Adobe helped photographers out by putting in an excellent RAW reader but someone at a Adobe has to keep up with all these specifications. If all the camera manufacturers would adopt ONE format then Adobe AND open source developers could focus their time on the important business of digital photography -- producing excellent final photos.

    Another benefit of the RAW format hinted above is that for programs like the GIMP developers waste a lot of time trying to reverse engineer these formats. As you can imagine a lot of the camera manufacturers aren't out there sharing the love with their specifications. The one format that's been best reverse engineered is the Canon RAW format with varying levels of success going down from there for Nikon, Minolta et al.

    Lastly, let's not forget the benefit of having a common format for long-term archival and retrieval. Anybody out there have any binary files they can't get into any more? A common RAW format will reduce the chances of being orphaned with files you can't read.

    In summary, then, this is a huge benefit for everyone as we can all focus on digital image production using a shared format and libraries and less on figuring all these formats out. The only question the article doesn't address is whether Adobe are releasing the format into the wild, as it were, or plan to setup a "toll" on it via patents.

  • Re:JPEG-2000? (Score:3, Informative)

    by insac ( 623145 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:15AM (#10362708)
    At a first glance of the specs, it seems that Adobe is proposing something more than a "RAW" format.

    They're filling the format with lots of structured metadata that can give you all the information you need (and probably also some you don't need :-) about the photo AND the settings of the camera (which lens you used, which model, and every other setting I don't know anything about).

    You could look at a photo and say "Hey, I like the way the details are emphasized in this photo. Let's see which settings he used".

    Compression: they're proposing a "lossless JPEG" compression. Since they cited the DCT-based compression (for lossy compression), I guess that the "lossless JPEG" will be the "old" one and not the JPEG2000 wavelet based format (probably to avoid heavy modifications to today firmware).

    My opinion is that the main feature of this format is the presence of photo-specific metadata (while JPEG2000 is "general-purpose"), but it probably could have been substituted by a "sub-specification" of the JPEG2000 metadata.

  • Re:Why? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Atzanteol ( 99067 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:19AM (#10362736) Homepage
    PNG, being an indexed-color format, is not the end-all of graphics formats

    No, it is not [libpng.org]. It *can* do that, but PNG supports full 24-bit color, with 8 bit alpha. And possibly higher color depths if necessay (there's a byte or so in the header for bits-per-color).
  • by guidryp ( 702488 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:19AM (#10362739)
    This is a major boon. For those too lazy to read. It is 100% free and open for anyone to implement. Adobe is also providing a free converter.

    This provides a common RAW format for cameras. This is not a png or jpg replacement, but a RAW replacement.

    There are a number of third party RAW converters on the market right now. Many have limited camera support. You can bet they will quickly moving to support DNG. Which will instantly open up their usage to almost all current cameras.

    With DNG support and Adobes converter you will soon be able to open just about any RAW image with any converter.

    Even without camera output this is a benefit. As you can get one converter to support all your cameras.

    You can archive all your RAWs as DNG and not have to worry that you kept all the software that came with the camera that generated the original RAW.

    Camera support would be even better, but that may be slow as the manufactures may suffer "Not Invented Here" syndrome, or see value adds to their own format quirks.

  • Parent is uninformed (Score:5, Informative)

    by Archimonde ( 668883 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:28AM (#10362820)
    Who modded this up?

    This format is about putting all RAW files under one (DNG) format.

    Eg. Nikon has NEF, Canon has CRW, Olympus has xxx, adsf has yyy....

    Isn't it better to have one open/standard format which all manufacturers support/endorse?

    If you are skeptical read this. [adobe.com]
  • Another Standard? (Score:1, Informative)

    by tbcpp ( 797625 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:30AM (#10362844)

    Why don't they call this YAIF - for Yet Another Image Format. Really guys would the others not suffice?

    tbc++


  • by kzinti ( 9651 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:42AM (#10362968) Homepage Journal
    Adobe is very smart about this. It's based on TIFF, so it's a pretty easy to read standard as there are a lot of libraries to read TIFF...

    TIFF is also a format that most camera makers are already comfortable with. The files that come out of most cameras conform to the Exif spec. Exif is the JFIF (JPEG) file format with metadata embedded using TIFF tags. It will be interesting to see (I haven't read the specs yet) whether Adobe wants to keep any or all of the Exif tags, or wants to ignore them and invent their own. It would be smart of Adobe to try to design something that can live happily with what users and manufacturers are already familiar with
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:47AM (#10363031)
    Because the raw format is the data straight off the CCD plus the camera settings.

    Those two together let you play with the image composition before its set into any format. Don't like the exposure? Check what the exposure setting was, then recalculate the pixels based on the original source data. Bad aliasing effect? Try again from the raw data at a different resolution or different interpolation between the CCD sensors and pixels and see if you can save the picture.
  • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @11:58AM (#10363160) Homepage
    exactly!!

    my digital rebel I take a "black mask" shot every night I start a sky photographing session. I'm looking at 25-60 second exposures (multiples to get even longer exposures) and when I subtract a black mask from the images I remove most of the unwanted ccd noise. (simple script under linux in C to work with the RAW files.) I can not accomplish the same quality by doing a black mask on Jpegs or in photoshop with the RAW plugin I bought for it.

    The same goes for stacking images to get a better exposure. performing this on the native RAW images produces crisper results.
  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Monday September 27, 2004 @12:07PM (#10363257)
    The spec not only allows the metadata to be held in EXIF, but two other formats as well - IPIC and one other I forget.
  • by Sigfried ( 779148 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @12:13PM (#10363331)
    If you actually go to adobe's website and RTFM [adobe.com],you will see that Adobe did the Right Thing (TM):

    A DNG-format file is fully compliant with the TIFF 6.0 Specification Standard and the ISO TIFF-EP codification of that spec, which was designed from day one as a fully extensible raw, processed, or whatever image / metadata annotation spec.

    BTW, TIFF was originally designed for offset printing folks, and in the 6.0 standard already supports a huge number of colorspace models besides RGB, and has an extensible mechanism for specifying color-data encoding and compression schemes (you can even store JPEG encoding in TIFF).

    When I worked at the ground-data processing section of the Jet Propulsion labs, TIFF was occasionally used to store and transmit raw multispectral satellite data, which consisted of over 256 separate color-spectra bands from far infrared to ultraviolet, stored spatially in separate tiles.

    Working together with Spot Image and other satellite providers, NASA also helped develop the GeoTIFF extension to TIFF, which annotates an image with exact georeferencing information.

    It looks like Adobe went the route of using SubIFD's to define the extended data. A little bit unfortunate, since that data will not show up in a "tiffdump" listing of the file, but in any case I have no doubt that folks are already taking the spec and writing "libtiff" extensions to parse the stuff.

    For more information on TIFF, see my old, clunky website that is chock full of invalid links,but still has a few useful things to say:

    http://home.earthlink.net/~ritter/tiff [earthlink.net]

    --Niles (original GeoTIFF and TIFF webpage author)

  • by halivar ( 535827 ) <bfelger&gmail,com> on Monday September 27, 2004 @12:17PM (#10363360)
    Adobe does not have the support of any major camera vendor yet, that's where this really counts

    Maybe that's because it's brand new and it's just been released.

    Adobe in it's traditional greedyness did not release this as Open Source, they released a spec but not code. They just don;t get how to work with the open source community.

    The way to work with the Open Source community to to release non-proprietary specifications for which we can write code ourselves. SO FAR they've done a pretty good job with PDF and DNG. What? Do you think no one is going to write an Open Source library for it?

    Sheesh, talk about greedy; they could've colluded with camera manufacturers to monopolize on a closed, proprietary format, and you complain because they didn't give you the frickin' code? Get off your rear-end and write it yourself. That's the Open Source way.

    PS: Adobe sucks for entirely different reasons (e.g. Dmitry Skylarov). This, however, is not one of those reasons. Adobe did right this time.
  • by JimDabell ( 42870 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @12:46PM (#10363709) Homepage

    So in other words, the Slashdot writeup that stated this was a new format that was better than JPEG was completely incorrect, and in actual fact this is simply a container format that uses existing JPEG algorithms? Sounds about usual for Slashdot these days.

    So where is the (more) efficient method?

    According to the JPEG FAQ, PNG is more efficient than lossless JPEG for most images. Unfortunately, this specification doesn't allow for that; as far as I can tell this has little to do with picture quality and more to do with metadata and interoperability.

  • RTFA (Score:3, Informative)

    by p3d0 ( 42270 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @12:56PM (#10363807)
    This is an instance of the TIFF-EP format. It specifies things like values for certain tags, byte ordering, etc. It's not a completely new format.
  • Camera Raw Updates (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday September 27, 2004 @12:57PM (#10363817)
    If you want to update your Camera Raw (w/in Photoshop 7 or CS) the direct links seem to be the only way to get to them (at least for Win versions):

    Mac:
    http://download.adobe.com/pub/adobe/magic/photosho p/cameraraw/mac/DNG_Camera_Raw_2_3.sit.hqx [adobe.com]

    PC:
    http://download.adobe.com/pub/adobe/magic/photosho p/cameraraw/win/DNG_Camera_Raw_2_3.zip [adobe.com]
  • Re:Why? (Score:3, Informative)

    by afidel ( 530433 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @01:00PM (#10363842)
    Pro's don't like to use JPEG because JPEG doesn't allow the level of post processing that RAW does. Hell Canon RAW's include a normal quality JPEG as part of the RAW image for faster previews.
  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Monday September 27, 2004 @01:06PM (#10363908)
    They are using TIFF-EP as a base - a thing they didn't even develop. So how would they have a submarine patent on anything here? If there were a submarine patent related to TIFF we would have seen that long ago. Since it's really TIFF and metadata, there simply is nothing to torpedo with the submarine.

    This is just a graphic file format like any other, using bog-standard compression and metadata standards. It's just a more standard bag for raw camera data than what we've seen before.
  • Re:JPEG-2000? (Score:3, Informative)

    by crawling_chaos ( 23007 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @01:12PM (#10363958) Homepage
    Except this [adobe.com]:
    Patent Clarification Notice: Reading and Writing PDF Files Adobe has a number of patents covering technology that is disclosed in the Portable Document Format (PDF) Specification, version 1.3 and later, as documented in PDF Reference and associated Technical Notes (the "Specification". Adobe desires to promote the use of PDF for information interchange among diverse products and applications.

    Accordingly, the following patents are licensed on a royalty-free, non-exclusive basis for the term of each patent and for the sole purpose of developing software that produces, consumes, and interprets PDF files that are compliant with the Specification:

    U.S. Patent Numbers:

    5,634,064
    5,737,599
    5,781,785
    5,819,301
    6,028,583
    6,289,364
    6,421,460

    In addition, the following patent is licensed on a royalty-free, non-exclusive basis for its term and for the sole purpose of developing software that produces PDF files that are compliant with the Specification (specifically excluding, however, software that consumes and/or interprets PDF files):

    U.S. Patent Numbers:

    5,860,074

    Unisys never did the same with their submarine patent. They simply said nothing and then enforced it. Adobe has already precluded themselves from that.

  • In astronomical work, there are usually two calibration images you use: the dark frame and the flat. The dark frame is an image captured with the shutter closed. It lets you identify the hot (i.e. broken) pixels. The flat is an image of a uniform field exposed just long enough not to saturate any pixels. This lets you measure the relative light sensitivity of the pixels (which is a function of both the lens and the CCD).

    To get a corrected image, use this formula for each pixel:
    newimage = (image - dark) / (flat - dark)

    Better yet, take a bunch of darks and flats and median-filter them to get rid of cosmic rays which can introduce spurious glitches in the images.
  • "Raw" scanner files (Score:2, Informative)

    by flybrarian ( 533097 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @01:29PM (#10364148)
    Actually, there's a scanner program called Vuescan [hamrick.com] that will let you do something like this. It's not an open format, but the program will allow you to save the raw output from the scanner to a file and then manipulate it after the fact.
  • by rbrunner ( 519607 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @01:40PM (#10364252) Homepage Journal
    No, its 12 bits/pixel. Each pixel represents one of the three color channels. Color info is interpolated to produce an output TIFF or JPEG.
  • by HughsOnFirst ( 174255 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @01:52PM (#10364371)
    " I read the article and I still don't see the point. How is a "raw" file format any better than any other lossless image format (like PNG or TIFF)?"


    Well, a raw file is a lot more compact, and it does not do anything to change the artifacts and or "lossyness" of the sensor itself.
    For instance the Canon cameras use a Bayer sensor. Imagine a checkerboard where half the sensors, are green , arranged in a checkerboard pattern, and the other half the sensors alternate between red and blue. The 12 bit value of each sensor site is encoded as the eight bit difference between it and the nearest same color site to its left. ( Amiga developers will find this vaguely familiar) The theoretical case of there being a full 12 bit difference between 2 sites never happens due to the optical properties of the camera and lens.

  • by kzinti ( 9651 ) on Monday September 27, 2004 @04:18PM (#10366113) Homepage Journal
    A lot of programs can read it. I think the latest versions of PHP have Exif support built in. The latest GIMP might have Exif support. I wrote my own software that was in Sourceforge as Exif-tools, but I no longer maintain it and I believe the project has been removed. If you're looking for a command-line tool, jhead might read Exif tags. Even Windows XP can read them.

    The most useful tag is DateTimeOriginal, which tells you when the photo was taken. Some cameras also record info like shutter speed, flash setting, aperture, focus distance, lighting conditions, and other interesting info.

Neutrinos have bad breadth.

Working...