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Mozilla The Internet IT

Firefox and Open Standards the Way Forward 254

lamasquerade writes "A major Australian newspaper has a lengthy and detailed feature on open source/standards, avoiding vendor lock-in, and specifically the increasing uptake of Firefox by major organisations' IT departments. It touches on security and price advantages of open source but mainly focuses on open standards -- the perils of vendor lock-in, and their importance to technologies like the Internet and digital music. Linux, OpenOffice.org and even Bugzilla get a mention and all told it is a very pro-open source/standards article, especially considering it is in a mass-circulation publication."
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Firefox and Open Standards the Way Forward

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  • by dn15 ( 735502 ) on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @01:53AM (#12009027)
    It's great to see a mainstream article taking this relatively well-rounded look at Firefox. There have been a million stories about how it has tabs and is free and secure, but that's just a part of the story.

    Even if people don't care about any of the end-user features, it's important to support a more open Internet by using clients that at least make an attempt at conforming to standards. Many people may not care about this but there's no way they can care if they don't have the chance to hear about it.
  • by filmmaker ( 850359 ) * on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @01:54AM (#12009029) Homepage
    "I'm staggered and close to offended that some businesses choose the risk of vendor lock-in, and I'm staggered by the timidity of some IT managers," he says.

    There are a variety of orgranizations, large and small, that utilize open source technologies. As was pointed out in a recent thread about the looming IE7, the lack of a centralized, push-button management tool for corporate customers is one thing hampering Firefox. Another thing are applications that utilize Active X and are dependent upon an MS browser as part of their platform. Isn't a lot of high tier banking and insurance software like this; I've read that anyways?

    I don't think it's timid IT people. As frightening as it may be, folks who are of my age bracket (28 this summer) are now being put into positions of leadership in technology. People who've spent 5 to 10 years with Linux and accept it. I can't imagine life without Perl and Apache. Simply unthinkable. Firefox and Google are part of this scenerio as well, which is what the author of the article is alluding to: a culture of open source software and open standards.

    What I think is so great about Firefox is that it shows the promise of open source in full bloom and it speaks for itself. Nothing's worse than an OSS nerd trying to convince a normal person why they should switch to XYZ program or platform. Not that the reasons lack legitimacy; I'm just saying it's physically painful to watch because most folks don't want to hear it.

    But plop a slick "modern car", as the article puts it, in front of them and they immediately reach for the steering wheel.
  • Re:1998 called.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by timeOday ( 582209 ) on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @02:01AM (#12009072)
    The huge difference is: now mozilla (firefox etc) is actually a good browser! We take it for granted now, but linux wasn't as fun before it had a good browser.
  • It's Aussie (Score:1, Insightful)

    by schestowitz ( 843559 ) on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @02:08AM (#12009112) Homepage Journal
    You did not read this carefully. It's Australia, not Austria. When Austria talk about Open Source, that's nothing new. I am glad to find that the concepts get expanded in the English-speaking world too.
  • by dauthur ( 828910 ) <johannesmozart@gmail.com> on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @02:09AM (#12009115)
    After a while, the Firefox uptake will slow and so will its overall satisfaction rates, seeing as how I'm already getting popups on some sites now. Sure Firefox is infinitely safer than browsing in IE for excessive reasons, but at the same time, it's only safe because the whole malware world isn't targeting it. When IE7 comes out, I can only imagine a handbrake-style stop in Firefox growth.
  • by Nos. ( 179609 ) <andrew@th[ ]rrs.ca ['eke' in gap]> on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @02:13AM (#12009141) Homepage
    Most of the IT managers where I work are nearing retirement. At this point they seem timid of making leaps into new areas. As its been said before, nobody ever got fired for choosing Oracle, and that's how it is with IE. These are people who have spent most of their careers dealing with the big commercial Unix boxes (AIX, Sun, SGI, HP) and Microsoft. They don't understand (for the most part) how something without a brand name or big company headquarters can produce and sustain quality software. Hopefully as these folks retire and younger folks move in, we'll see a shift, or at least more acceptance of OSS.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @02:14AM (#12009144)
    woohoo! "Open Source" is now the latest braindead buzzword, usable by point-haired bosses and con artist consultants alike.

    Enjoy your progress, you've earned it!

  • Re:eh (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @02:29AM (#12009229)
    We really need an "idiot" mod.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @02:32AM (#12009252)
    Think a little harder. Try compatability with more websites than any other browser.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @02:36AM (#12009275)
    Perhaps the OP was commenting on the fact that the article was flawed because it couldn't just say "The Age", but had to be vague about it.

    Mods: When somebody is being a dipshit by putting down mods for modding up something she doesn't understand, feel free to mod her down.
  • by nacturation ( 646836 ) <nacturation AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @02:58AM (#12009404) Journal
    exactly, smh even managed to put the firefox logo on their frontpage (albeit slightly rotated for some bizzare reason).

    Take another look at *how* it's rotated. It is, of course, the Firefox down under.
  • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) * on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @03:04AM (#12009431)
    Messed up the italics - the full quote is:


    On standards, Firefox has an advantage over Explorer. That gives organisations latitude to commit to standards rather than to products. That in turn reduces the leverage that vendors have over customers.

    Microsoft has hampered standards support in Explorer for five years with its go-slow campaign against the web. Standards-oriented page layout is not possible on most versions of Explorer (CSS box model). Explorer has never met standards for web document identification (HTTP MIME content types), or if one is supported, then simultaneously the other is not. Microsoft has shown an antipathy to web standards, because in the view of many they provide an alternative to the Windows desktop - Microsoft's core business. The success of web-based applications such as Amazon, Google, eBay, the open source Wikipedia encyclopedia and online banking point to the decreasing importance of Windows in a world where a web browser is sufficient.


    That'll teach me not to always use Preview...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @03:13AM (#12009468)
    Think a little smarter. Think compatibility with more standards than that 'other' browser. Your purported superiority is nothing more than another symptom of an anti-competitive monopoly exercising its evil powers. You see, there's a difference between quality and quantity. It's not that IE renders websites better, it's that too many short-sighted web designers write webpages which violate perfectly good and accepted standards so that IE is capable of rendering them (more or less) correctly. That's due to greater numbers of IE users, which in turn is due to the Microsoft monopoly (sorry, but it's true) shipping IE with their OS and making it impossible to really uninstall. Not only is IE the default choice for the overwhelming majority of PC users, there are actually barriers to making any other choice which have nothing to do with the relative quality of the browser. Worse yet, IE intentionally renders correct W3C-compliant code incorrectly - you have to assume it's intentional, as there are few places on this planet with a greater aggregation of programming talent than Redmond, WA. If they wanted it to render clean code correctly, it would. This deliberate perversion of web standards is nothing more than a transparent and immoral (and technically illegal, although intentional lack of enforcement renders that point moot) attempt by Microsoft to maintain a dominant position in the operating system market.

    The preceding has been a waste of nearly everyone's time. You, being a troll, are uninterested in relevant facts. You are also unable to spell correctly or even to operate a spellchecker. Nor, apparently, are you capable of offering anything of substance to a conversation, and so you simply spout meaningless and poorly-constructed garbage in a feeble and pitiful attempt to garner the attention of your betters. The fact that the few responses are invariably negative serves, amazingly enough, to whet your appetite further. Why do you torture yourself so? Why do you yearn for the disdain and scorn of others? Can you not see that this path inevitably leads to a complete loss of self-esteem, and that you'll eventually wind up behind the counter at a Radio Shack (or [shudder] Best Buy), pushing cell phones and overpriced cables to the techno-retarded? You are truly a conundrum, o slashdot troll.
  • by bonch ( 38532 ) on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @03:21AM (#12009497)
    In Longhorn, web sites can present a fully rich client to browsers through Avalon.


    Microsoft has always been a software company. And they may put out operating systems and be most-known for Windows, but really their goal is just to control software platforms. The reason they sell the X-Box at a loss is to push the DirectNext platform. They sell Windows, no matter how insecure, just to push their APIs.

    Avalon and its related technologies are Microsoft's long-planned attempt to finally gain control of this Internet thing as its own software platform. It's the final fulfilment of the process that started way back with IE4, when Microsoft decided to do anything and everything to get rid of Netscape and prevent the Web from becoming its own software platform. Microsoft ignores web standards because that takes the control of the platform away from them. Right now, if you run a major website, you code for IE hacks and all and hope it works for "fringe" browsers.

    Web developers will need to do absolutely everything they can and speak very LOUDLY to prevent the Web from becoming closed. Fortunately, it appears that Longhorn will not be as successful as it was hyped in previous years, but the fact Microsoft is porting a lot of Longhorn's technologies to XP just to get people to use it all is something to keep an eye on, as is the sudden announcement of a new version of IE7 which will no doubt take advantage of Avalon.
  • by Trogre ( 513942 ) * on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @03:26AM (#12009512) Homepage
    I just hope that they keep innovating.

    Extensions for IE such as Avant and Maxthon can do pretty much everything that firefox can do (tabs, popup blocking, gestures), so don't get too comfortable with catching up based on a few features missing in the de facto standard.

    Not everyone, sadly, cares about the free principles, open standards, etc.

  • P.S. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by bonch ( 38532 ) on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @03:34AM (#12009547)
    And before you bust out those "paranoia" modifiers, really think about Avalon. It delivers rich client support through the web. Microsoft is trying to leverage .NET and Avalon to eventually fully replace client-side Win32 with a web-based delivery platform. You'll use Office as a subscription-based service through the web, delivered through the web into your Longhorn browser and run as a rich client. None of it will happen immediately, but it's the inevitable process they're headed on, and you can see it coming a mile away. Microsoft is tired of fighting with this open, standards-based web thing and is creating their own software platform using the web, so they don't have to worry about the Internet anymore once everything goes to high-speed Internet2 where app delivery would happen in less than a second.
  • by idlake ( 850372 ) on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @04:49AM (#12009803)
    The solution to that is to create an XUL plugin for IE: then, people have an open choice and alternative.
  • by FireFury03 ( 653718 ) <slashdot&nexusuk,org> on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @07:00AM (#12010295) Homepage
    Photoshop's ability to load and save PNG files doesn't mean I can inspect, share, or modify Photoshop to suit my needs. Depending on the license agreement and the method by which I have to install the program, I might even be restricted from running the software whenever I want.

    The point is that if Photoshop ceased to exist tomorrow or had a licence change that conflicted with your business practices/moral code, you have the option of changing to a different piece of software that supports the same file formats, etc. The same cannot be said for software with closed file formats - (ok, not entirely true since people _do_ reverse engineer closed standards, but generally because a lot of the support is guesswork they're not going to do such a good job. An excellent example is OOo, which opens and saves word documents but often gets the formatting slightly (or massively) wrong).
  • by Kadmos ( 793363 ) on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @07:24AM (#12010369)
    [sarcasm]I have to agree here. IE and ActiveX is where web development is heading. I am confident that Microsoft will continue to support IE long into the future and will not drop support for it at an arbitrary time, like when something more profitable comes along or they change focus and my business is OK with that. I don't see that I will have any problems migrating my data away from any of their closed formats that I might be using, I won't have any problems updating their product with security patches, new features etc etc.[/sarcasm]

    But, on the other hand there is a reason I am writing a point of sale system with mysql and gtk on Debian:
    1. I can be confident that the system I am using is totally open to my every whim.
    2. I can implement whatever feature I need/want.
    3. My data will be in a format *I* want, and open to me for as long as it exists.
    4. I can have an operating system/distro which suits my business (and not arrange my business to suit somebody else's product). (I am surprised at list of software I have patched/modified to behave the way *I* want and I am not even a great programmer).
    5. I *own* my system in every sense of the word, one can only "license" a MS product for a non-specific amount of time.

    I have been using Linux for seven years and still find new things and new ways of doing things. The flexibility and abilities are apparently endless, not last week I built my own very small distro just for kicks in an existing install, a single file including it's own filesystem and linux distro which I loopback mounted and chrooted to work on/run. After all these years I am still grateful I don't have to use inferior products anymore. I haven't even begun to touch on stuff like virtual machines but they look... well they are just amazing :-)

    Just think: People all around the world are working/developing on some great stuff *right now* , the possibilities truly are only limited only by *us* and not some company who mandates how/what we can do.
  • by hey! ( 33014 ) on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @09:46AM (#12010996) Homepage Journal
    OK, I want you to take a mental snapshot of the state of your mind when you think about how those old fogies are holding back progress. If someday you reach the top of of the IT heap, have it framed and put on desk, where you have to look at it every day.

    It's true that many older guys are too conservative. In part this is experience -- we've seen too many better solutions get crushed by herd -- at some point you begin to question the wisdom of not being part of the herd. The other reasons guys get more conservative is that they have more to lose. If you're a young guy starting to climb the ladder of status, you don't have much to lose, and you can find another junion position easily. If you're older, you quickly realize the ladder of IT status only goes so high, and there's a lot more rungs below you than above. If you lose your position, then that could be it -- there aren't that many senior positions and nobody wants to hire somebody overqualified for a junior position.

    It's easy to take risks when you don't have much at stake; taking risks when you have a lot at stake takes real guts. That said, this is an explanation, not an excuse. Which is why when you are a bit older, you should examine your youthful idealism and examine it on a regular basis. Sometimes it isn't "If I only knew then what I know now." Sometimes it should be "If I only knew now what I knew then."
  • You can't judge the security of a software for its POPULARITY.

    Firefox is safer because its design is ROCK SOLID. While it may have one or two buffer overflow bugs lurking in the shadows (and when discovered these get fixed rather quickly), but that's very different from saying it has a structural flaw *cough* activex *cough*, which allows REMOTE CODE execution. To have remote code executing in a buffer overflow, you have to CAREFULLY CRAFT the overflow. It just doesn't happen like magic. Buffer overflows are the hardest kind of attack to do on a certain software.

    However, when you run an activex control (i.e. media player), that's remote code being executed directly. No "careful craft" and guesswork is needed. You compile your code and let IE run it. That simple. Whether IE considers it safe or not, that's a very different matter.

    Firefox, on the other hand, has only ONE way to install "remote code": Firefox extensions. And these don't get published on a website on a daily basis. Have you ever seen a website saying "This website requires Firefox extension XYZ to be seen?

    No, this is a habit inherited from Internet Explorer's activeX. As for flash, etc. running in Firefox, that's "plugins", not "extensions", and they're all provided by THIRD PARTIES, not the website in question. How are they executed? By handling the MIME Type for a certain object. And these are managed by Firefox, not the website.

    In summary, saying Firefox is as insecure as IE6 is like saying that the three little pigs made all their houses with straw.

    I wonder if you still use IE because "Firefox is as insecure, so what's the difference if I switch?" Yeah, great wisdom, indeed.
  • by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Tuesday March 22, 2005 @12:29PM (#12012652) Journal
    That's due to greater numbers of IE users, which in turn is due to the Microsoft monopoly (sorry, but it's true) shipping IE with their OS and making it impossible to really uninstall

    Actually, I think it's probably more to do with the fact that IE versions 4 and 5 were far better than Netscape 4, and the fact that Netscape (and then Mozilla) took far too long to catch up. Sure, alternatives to IE are better now, but there was a period when IE was simply better than the competition. Since they gained enough market share, there has been little incentive to improve. Hopefully pressure from FireFox / Safari / etc. will change this.

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