China PM Wants to Rule Global Tech With India 1020
GrumpyDeveloper writes "As reported in this Wired story, China's prime minister said Sunday that China and India should work together to dominate the world's tech industry, bringing together Chinese hardware with Indian software.
Good on them (Score:3, Insightful)
India has gained global repute as a hub of software professionals while China is strong on computer hardware. Both countries' cheap and plentiful labor has undercut the tech industry in America and other Western countries through outsourcing.
Seems as if they're trading on the principle of 'comparative' advantage, something that makes perfect sense. Software in India, hardware in China. Now, I understand that we're going to see some misguided anti-Globalisation backlash on this site. Overall, firms will then get lower prices for their tech products. Everybody will win from this.
Hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, the border agreement India and China announced today seems like a terrific step forward. I'm surprised it's not getting more attention. The two biggest countries in the world have been banging heads over that border for decades.
Inevitable (Score:5, Insightful)
Whether or not they succeed at dominating the tech industry is redundant. If they cooperate, even economically, they'd have a lot more say in the world than the either the US or the EU, over time.
Re:Good on them (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless you are emloyed in America, making software or hardware for a living.
Please inform the masses on Slashdot how lowering the standard of living for those in say - America, Britain and elsewhere - is a winning situation.
It's better than them lobbing nukes at each other (Score:2, Insightful)
Global perception... (Score:2, Insightful)
In times past, the American workforce was something to admire. I don't think that's the case any longer.
Re:Good on them (Score:5, Insightful)
I've heard, on Slashdot no less, of Americans outsourcing their own work to India, pocketing the difference and spending their time at the desk learning. Specialization of labor has always worked, and may even be the reason we are where we are now [economist.com].
Re:Inevitable (Score:5, Insightful)
China and India may pretend to get along as newlyweds but China's support of Pakistan's military is the porn stash in the closet.
Re:It's true (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's see if we're all still laughing in 18 months.
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
There is nothing lacking in the skill, talent and dedication of American employees. It is simply that employees in America have to pay American prices for rent, housing, transportation, food, clothing, education and health care. Corporations have the entire planet to search for qualified and extremely cheap labor.
If American tech workers had the entire world to choose from for sourcing out their necessary purchases for living, they could live cheaper, too. If Joe Techie lives in a country where a gallon of milk is almost $4 and the average cost of a house is $200,000 - how can you expect him to survive on the wages of someone who lives in a country where that would buy five houses?!
they're no dummies (Score:5, Insightful)
China, knowing that by 2030 india is predicted to pass them in population, knows they have to act. Most of China's land mass is worthless, after all (why do you think Tiawan is so important to them?) so they have to position themselves as a solid consumer front.
The problem India/China will face: they'll be *consumers*. Being the biggest consumers has been a major harm to the US economy (trade deficits, etc). For our substantially smaller work force (1/5th-ish), we still produce twice as much as China does (see above CIA link). They need to seriously work on their production per-capita. That, and feeding those folks is already a serious problem. Production, on their end, is not just an industrial issue - its a natural resource issue.
The Western Hemisphere controls the food, and with it...we'll still control the wealth. If the US made some strong ties with South America, we'd retain power with even just 2% of the global population...put 3 billion people in an area that can only make food for 1 billion, and what does supply/demand dictate? It dictates that food prices will skyrocket, and non-food goods will plummet. Watches and games will become trivial, throw-away items (already are), but an apple...an apple will be valuable.
Re:One word. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I should probably elaborate... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Good on them (Score:3, Insightful)
Than what countries? Let me remind you that India has got one of the best IT University degrees in the world. Was this really an educated comment?
As such, their occupational mobility is higher.
How is the educational level linked to the occupational mobility?
Just Maybe (Score:3, Insightful)
Is what is good for the USA also good for Microsoft? is what is good for Microsoft good for the USA? Is Microsoft the last great hope for Planet Earth?
;-)
Re:Good. (Score:2, Insightful)
When we, ( I mean America, the "West" and probably Japan ) no longer make anything, or design anything, but only consume, consume consume... we will fall apart.
Everything we buy will be designed in China or India, and made in China or India. Our universities (if they're still relevant, and haven't been shut down by the evangelical right-wing) will be educating Chinese or Indians in math, science, engineering, etc while we get degrees in "communications" and get jobs pushing paper around, so we can buy chinese products.
Such an aritficial economy can't support itself, and we'll *probably* collapse into some sort of 3rd world police state. Here I'm referring to America -- we've been tottering on being a plice state for like 50 years, an economic collapse would push us over the edge.
Meanwhile, China and India will have become what America was 40 years ago -- the Big Cheese, but *too* successful. Fat on money and industry, with those pesky (educated) workers demanding high falutin' things like medicare, wages, retirement packages, etc.
So what happens? The chinese will move their factories to the US, Japan, England, and so on! Our starving and uneducated populations will *want* these jobs, because its better than tending the rice patties, and everything will be A-O-K.
Now, in all seriousness, as far as I'm concerned, the Chinese and Indians deserve the success they are having right now. They're educated, and hard working. And we, we deserve to have our asses handed to us for our laziness and hubris. I just hope all this manages to happen without too much warfare.
Re:Global perception... (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course, the irony of the situation is that all of the companies cutting their work force for short term savings are going to end up with a much smaller customer base in the long run. Once all the well paid people are working for peanuts, only peanut farms will be able to sustain themselves.
Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Global perception... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
Indian worker do not work for substantially less benefit than US workers - the trade issue people are talking about refers to a pure exchange rate problem.
One could even argue that Indian tech workers reap a substantially higher benefit than their US counterparts when you take mean deviation in standard of living into account.
This is exactly why import tariffs were invented, and curiously, this is what you get when you don't use them.
Re:Global perception... (Score:1, Insightful)
This is nothing to do with quality, it's all about price. You can't get everything made where it's cheap and then sell to countries for an enormous price, it just won't work. People need money to buy things. That's how it all works.
Like it or not, 'Globalization' is all about taking advantage of 3rd world countries and the lower/middle class.
How long their advantage ? (Score:5, Insightful)
But how long will that last ? Once their workforces see the wealth that they are generating they are going to want a share of it, that is going to lead to demands for higher wages. This has happened before (see Eastern Europe).
Part of the West's wealth relies on an imbalance of income -- ie the West relies on low wages in Africa/Asia to supply them with cheap food/goods/holidays/... This is not to say that things won't change: they will -- there will be an averaging of standards of living; we in the West are going to have to accept a reduction in our standards of living or work much harder for it. This is good in global terms.
Where will the world's workhouse be ? Africa ?
BTW: Anyone remember 20-30 years ago the golden future that was painted for us -- that automation would mean that no one would have to work more than one day a week (or something like that). Whatever happened to that dream ?
Tibet (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems money is all that matters in the world. So much for the hindus living up to the Srimad-Bhagavad Ghita. =\
Re:Good on them (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally I am just waiting for the US to announce that some such alliance poses a threat to their security and takes military action to protect their economy
And with their buildup of their airforce and navy (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Whatever (Score:2, Insightful)
Correcting the misconception once again... (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as the current wages for "IT" professionals in India go, they are among the top paid people in the white-collar industry. They can afford to live a lifestyle that may be at the very least considered as upper middle class in most societies.
When most Americans hear about "pennies-per-hour" salaries (which in itself is an exaggeration), software professionals are being exploited as "slave labor" in "sweat shops". This view couldn't be further from the truth.
The truth is that "IT" professionals are being paid princely salaries by Indian standards (similar to how it was during the boom in the Silicon Valley). The cost of living in India is *way* low compared to the US. For comparison, a loaf of bread costs about 10 Indian Rupees or about 25 US cents. A large pizza at Pizza Hut/Dominos would cost about 100-300 INR, which is about 2.00 to 6.00 US Dollars. A low-cost meal in an average fast-food type restaurant would run you about 25 INR or less than 1.00 USD.
That's about all I have to say in this rant. Comparing wages without taking in the cost of living into account is crazy, but I guess it's convenient to ignore making misinformed arguments against "outsourcing" (which the corporations are responsible for, btw and not Indians who're "stealing our jaabs") and dissing Indians for being ready to work at lower wages.
Re:Bet this surprises most /.ers (Score:3, Insightful)
You may consider this troll or flamebait, but it's still completely true, and that's what really pisses you off.
Re:Good on them (Score:5, Insightful)
Please inform the masses on Slashdot how lowering the standard of living for those in say - America, Britain and elsewhere - is a winning situation.
As slashdotters are so fond of saying in P2P stories - your business plan is flawed and its not up to us to sustain it for you. You arent entitled to that higher standard of living, and if someone can undercut you then you need to compete in different ways, add value to YOUR version of the product, entice customers to buy from you rather than the cheaper alternative.
Why do democracies kowtow to a dictatorship? (Score:2, Insightful)
It started when Nixon first rolled out the red carpet to China's dictators and promtly dumped support for the occupied Tibetans' struggle to regain independence.
The only answer I have so far is greed. It seems that the formerly rather benevolently socialistic India now wants piece of the action, principles and ideals be damned. But hey, if the US and Europe can lick Chinese Communist Party's bottom, why can't the newly-assertive India? This corporate-lead foreign policy must be quite lucrative for the policy-makers too. And the Chinese Party cadres are masters in playing parties against each other.
Why else would the occupied Tibetans and Uighurs be so goddamn dispensable?
Next time you buy a Dell or visit Walmart (or other financiers of the Chinese Communist Party rule), remember that you aren't financing Hitler's autobahn network in the 1930s, but nevertheless something eerily similar.
Educational Spending? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's see if we're all still laughing in 18 months.
Meanwhile, the US has spent itself into such a massive hole that it can't keep up spending for education. Even colleges have had to turn away students because they've laid off so many staff.
An economy isn't so much based upon money, but on ideas and when there's poor education then the flow of ideas is stunted.
Re:How long their advantage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
Automation puts people out of work, hell if you are unemployed you don't work any days per week. Not that I'm saying automation is bad, but if you want stuff, you need to work for it. If automation put you out, you change careers.
Re:Global perception... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Global perception... (Score:4, Insightful)
Americans were confronted with the same situation in the 1980's when the Japanese behemoth swamped American auto and steel production, leading to the "Rust Belt" throughout the American Northeast. America recovered via the IT and telecommunications industries.
We're now confronted with the same scenario as China and India move into IT industry, threatening American businesses and jobs much like the Japanese did in the 1980's.
And now, as in the 1980's, Americans worried about their jobs and their families, as would ANY culture facing the demise of industries. But we CHANGED then, and we'll do the same now.
It's called the process of creative destruction, and American industry will rise again, much like the Phoenix of lore. Contrast that with what Europe attempted by protecting its industries rather than letting them go and you'll see who had the better model.
Re:Good. (Score:4, Insightful)
And I'm not sure what you mean by lazy. I work 80 hour weeks and have racked up enormous quantities of vacation time as I've never taken one. Most people I know are in a similar situation. I suppose you can call that lazy, but... whatever.
See, the idea is that in a capitalist society, everyone competes against everyone else. But a capitalist society has caused prices to increase to the point where workers need a certain wage to survive and thrive in their own country. Other countries, however, not having exactly what you'd call a "capitalist society", don't have a cheaper workforce. By nature of not having a capitalist society, they are able to provide cheaper costs for the capitalists. Go figure.
Really, I don't know what people expect the American worker to do. Are we expected to just start working for 20% of our current salaries, give up our health benefits, 401ks and stock options? If so, when do we get this offer? I've seen PLENTY of people laid off from their tech jobs in favor of foreign labor and none of them were given the option of "cut your salary our lose your job".
Not so far from the truth (Score:5, Insightful)
It's all about cheap labor, and if you think it's "Us" (the US and the West) vs. "Them" (China, India, etc.) then you have bought into the lie that the ruling class uses to keep control.
Re:they're no dummies (Score:5, Insightful)
put 3 billion people in an area that can only make food for 1 billion, and what does supply/demand dictate?
War.
In the US, we have some problems... (Score:5, Insightful)
Where I think we really have problems is in our educational system. In the 1970s, most articles in ACM journals were written by Americans. Now relatively few articles are. In the US, we have the top end of the IT food chain covered - by this I mean super creativity, capital for investments, etc. Anyway, it bothers me how few young people that I talk with have any desire what so ever to pursue careers in science and engineering.
-Mark
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
There is nothing lacking in the skill, talent and dedication of American employees.
Sure there is. I agree with much of what you have to say, but that is all beside the fact that American workers are unmotivated and incompetent in many cases. The CEO of a company I used to work at had already run three companies into the ground by doing really stupid and greedy things that made him rich but killed the company. The vast majority of workplaces in the U.S. offer no profit sharing or reasonable incentive plan. If you work twice as hard you get paid the same, but are more tired and stressed. American employees lack dedication for a number of really good reasons. They don't benefit when the company does. They may be fired not because they don't work hard but because the company wants to cut corners or outsource. Executives usually have a different health plan and benefits package than the regular employees. Basically, companies don't treat employees very well and don't feel responsible for them in they way many used to. As a result many employees don't care about working hard or well. This is a huge disadvantage compared to some other cultures.
India should say "No Thanks!"... (Score:2, Insightful)
If the US supports this partnership, then it confirms the fact that it's okay for the US to oppose dictatorships in all other countries, but China's Communist dictatorship is perfectly acceptable.
Re:Global perception... (Score:2, Insightful)
Notice how your analogy doesn't mention the "Rust Belt" twice? America may have benefitted from the IT boom but the Rust Belt has yet to recover from the 80's collapse of the REGIONAL auto industry (they just moved the plants).
Something abstract like an industry and the people at the top who reap all of the benefits may recover or grow but the vast majority of the people get ruined for generations like "damaged goods".
Re:Good. (Score:5, Insightful)
According to every stat I've seen Americans are some of the hardest working people on earth. Maybe we work too hard based on our lack of vacations, crazed schedules, and heart disease.
Re:Good. (Score:5, Insightful)
Not to cut up your post too much, but the above should read "WANT (or even demand) a certain wage" instead of need.
If people were forced to work 90 hours a week at a $7 hourly job to feed themselves they would. If you disagree, well, go without food for a wekk then get back to me.
So what if China wants to dominate anything? What have they EVER done right along these lines? The success they are currently having is because they emulate the West. If they are going to do what they intend, they need to innovate, not imitate.
Since China is primarily a society of followers, I doubt very seriously they'll be able to do anything more than make themselves a player, and then only because of the volume they can introduce.
India, on the other hand, well, I see them as a force. Which is probably why China is so eager to steal from... ahem work with them.
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmmm... Yes, there's no way that the USA would ever do anything [bbc.co.uk] like that [bbc.co.uk], is there?
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
One ought, of course, note that America has existed for only a rather short period of History thus far.
In that light, the quoted statement is really just a rather bland observation... unless of course you are so devoid of historical perspective that you think America is somehow special and will not fade like all previous empires.
In times past, the American workforce was something to admire. I don't think that's the case any longer.
That might have had something to do with having non-bombed-to-pieces infrastructure and a greater abundance of non-dead men than its European counter-parts after WW2.
Though I suppose it also might have been one of a host of heroic inimitable virtues that only Americans possess in the world.
Urgh... can't decide whether to be opinionated or ironic.
"Everybody" my ass! (Score:3, Insightful)
* Good jobs for those displaced by cheaper nations
* Vibrant middle class
If it by chance worked out that way in the PAST, we were lucky. But the theory does not mathematically guarentee the above. If you say otherwise, please show me the study.
It may mean better averages, but averages don't mean much for those stepped on. Do we cut the legs off of one in ten so that nine can have bigger cars? That seems to be what we are doing, figuratively.
Yeah, contrast that with Europe. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:There is simply no way... (Score:1, Insightful)
Both countries are very very good at math and science because of the kind of schooling they go through at a young age.
No, what the U.S. is good at is creative thinking and what to do with the science you've learned. Thats where the U.S. has it's strongest strength. We teach creativity in our school. (or rather we used to)
The Bush administration have steadily been screwing over the educational system due to lack of federal funding, restrictive rules. You won't be having the best schools for long since foreigners can't do any research anymore. I think you're going to see the end of any innovation thanks to this adminstration's anti immigration bent. 911 has done it's job, it's the beginning of the end.
sri
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference between then and now is that back then there was an answer. Both auto companies laying off workers and the government stepped in and provided retraining, job search and placement assistance, subsidies for those going to college. There was assistance for those looking for a way to pull themselves out of the rust belt.
Now that its my turn, what am I supposed to do? Nobody has answers, nobody is providing retraining, and the only government assistance I've seen is the unemployment office reminding me that I need to apply to N jobs every week and take the first minimum wage job that accepts me, or they'll cut off my unemployment. College costs are climbing as both federal and state funding for both grants and loans are going downhill. I ended up with a college loan from a private entity since Uncle Sam couldn't afford to let me borrow money from him.
I'm sure America will come through somehow, but this time around it looks like its going to be a very bumpy ride.
Re:Good on them (Score:4, Insightful)
If you imagine you can live high off the hog just because people will pay you a great deal of money to do what can be done as well and cheaper by someone else, then you doomed, whether `you' are an individual worker or a corporation.
Re: American worker's business plan (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Why do democracies kowtow to a dictatorship? (Score:5, Insightful)
For the same reason that the US is supporting Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - both of which are fundamentalist dictatorships, and the latter a military dictatorship.
Kinda ironic, don't you think?
Ultimately, what goes around comes around.
Re:Global perception... (Score:4, Insightful)
Had to keep out that nasty English and German steel, you know.
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
Hmmm... Lets see: BMW, Volkswagen vs. GM and Ford. Daimler buys Chrysler. The American superiority isn't very clear there. And who's standard of living has been going down and who's has been rising in the last 20 years?
Soon Americans may have to install a lot more European windfarm equipment to keep our Phoenix toasty... and perhaps creatively destroy the environment a bit less.
+5 Bluster for you.
Flank them (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Evangelical Right-Wing... (Score:1, Insightful)
God doesn't look too fondly upon liars like you.
I Beg To Differ (Score:5, Insightful)
What are you calling a recovery? The northeastern United States is still poverty-stricken (and I'm not talking about the Coastal areas). Infrastructure is decaying. Many of the region's lesser cities have become the worst minority ghettos in the country. The tech industry never came to the 'Rust Belt,' and it never will.
"America" as a whole will continue to prosper, yes. But each time a Big Change occurs entire regions become scar tissue, forever useless. It is a bit arrogant to consider this model of economics to be superior to any other.
Re:How long their advantage ? (Score:3, Insightful)
It came true. You can work 1 day a week and have a roof over your head and food on the table. What's that? You don't want to eat cold beans and rice while living in someone else's basement? You want your own house in the suburbs with 2.5 SUVs in the driveway, lots of fancy furniture, and all the latest electronic gadgets in the living room? Well, that'll cost you a lot more than 1 day a week, no matter how automated everything gets. I currently have way more space and stuff than I need, and I'm only working 4 days a week supporting a family of 3. We (the North American middle class) are not just living that dream, we are living a lifestyle that people didn't even know they could dream about 100 years ago. Unfortunately almost all of it is built on the widespread availability of cheap oil, and that's all about to come to an end. So enjoy it while you can.
Re:Thats all fine and dandy but (Score:3, Insightful)
If they are necessary then, by definition, everyone will follow suit or die.
The US is perfectly within it's rights to insist on a certain amount of equity when trading with other countries.
You have equity. If you don't want shoes made by semi-slave labour in environmentally destructive factories, then don't buy them. Buy shoes from US factories at the price you'd be paying for the imported ones if the exporting country ran to the same rules. If the same majority who chose the labour and environmental laws choose to buy the goods at the resulting price, there will be no problem.
The problem comes when you want to imagine that you can have jobs at the higher lifestyle price, but buy goods at the lower lifestyle price.
Tarifs are just a way for the US (or wherever) reasonably well off to, in the short term, screw the US poor. Force the poor to pay high prices for low price goods to subsidise the choices of those who could actually afford to buy the expensive US shoes if they weren't such tightwads.
And, of course, the slave labour and the environmental damage still happens on the other side of the tarif barrier.
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
No they won't. "Hey, we're getting screwed, and our rights are being pissed away, and we're being offshored and exploited, but golly gee gilly dang, them Dimmocrats wants to make gay marraige compulsory!"
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
Collective bargaining raised US salaries to absurd levels. Of course companies are going to outsource to other nations to stay alive. The unions shot themselves in the foot and are now crying fowl.
Then how do you explain the outsourcing of IT jobs, which are not unionized? Nobody is holding a gun to the CEO's head and making him or her pay programmers any particular wage.
Re:Global perception... (Score:4, Insightful)
Not entirely. They drove their wages far above what similar non-unionized labor was getting in this country, and constantly threatened strikes if they didn't get to push it ever-higher. You could say they have a right to try to get what they can. You could also say they should have had some foresight to realize that doing so too many times would lose their jobs. Ultimately, it did.
The problem with striking is that you put the company in a position that it's better in the short term to give in to demands, yet better long term to simply do away with you. Since labor laws in this country forbid firing a striking work force, in general, the result was that jobs moved overseas. You had a lot of companies realizing they had to give in to unions or else go under, but at the same time putting plans in effect to ultimately rid themselves of unionized labor.
Today, after lots of plant closings, the UAW has realized that they need to work together with the company to find solutions that build the business as a whole while maintaining a fair cut for them. Watch the airline shakeout now - the only airlines that are profitable are non-unionized. You think that's a coincidence? Not by a longshot.
That doesn't mean organized labor is inherently bad. But I've got to say that it doesn't have a good name in the US, because of 1) the role it played in killing some US industries earlier than they otherwise would have died, and 2) its ties to organized crime. As I said, neither of those have to go with unionization, but they did here in the US.
#2 Tries Harder (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:In the US, we have some problems... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Educational Spending? (Score:3, Insightful)
Sounds like you understand very little of the reasons and methods of education. It's not so much about cramming stuff into your grey matter to pop up later on demand, but to train the mind for learning. Remember, human body and mind develop slowly for a long lifespan. Most education is actually training with increasing levels of cognitive exercise. Hopefully, too, somwhere along the way to adulthood the student will determine, from all they have been exposed to in the process, what they want to specialize in, which is where college takes over.
JIT education? Man... you really have no idea how hard it is to train/educate humans. Fine for unskilled labor, like ditch digging, but where are you going to get accountants, engineers, even auto mechanics these days without a long training process?
"Hi, I'll be your JIT trained surgeon, what is it I'm working on today?"
Re:In the US, we have some problems... (Score:2, Insightful)
And, I still have not heard an *incentive* for young people to study tech/sci/eng. They will naturally pick something more lucrative and that allows them to live where they want.
One advantage some US workers have (at least me
I find that this often requires coding techniques that corporations don't like. They want plug-and-play personell. Advanced techniques hamper that goal of theirs because others cannot relate to such code.
Re:Good. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's more like most-working rather than hardest-working. If you compare productivity on an hourly basis, the EU is on par with America. They just take month-long summer vacations and have a lot more time off during the rest of the year. I think the numbers were around ~70% of the hours worked and ~68% of the producitivity per capita of the USA.
We do have a lot more stuff and bigger houses than the people on the EU do though.
I haven't seen a comparison with the 3rd and 2nd world countries.
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
BULLSHIT! Its the wealthy that have sold the American workforce out. The poor do not hire people. The poor do not start huge multinational corperations that machine hardware tech and do software developement.
Its the wealthy that pay us, the worker.
The problem isnt that American's are less talented. The problem IS that American workers COST TOO MUCH.
And that we can not change because WE ARE AMERICA. Our Dollar (which is in decline) Is still worth a hell of a lot more than most foreign currency.
We simply cant compete in this "free trade" economy because we're not slave labor. We demand a standard of living.
The problem is... Its just like the day's of slavery here in the US. Rich white guy doesnt want to pick cotton in the hot sun unless he gets paid? Solution... Get the black guy to do it for free. You can exploit the black guy... ITS LEGAL.
Same thing is happening today. We have legalized an unfair playing field that has made slave labor legal.
Now of course its not the same kind of slave labor as back in the day. Now we pay our slaves... we pay them shit.. but we pay them because they live in countries that are poor and are extremely cheap.
It's not that we dont work hard. The problem is that our slave masters are in bed with our politicians. And somewhere between swallowing donkey and elephant cum... they convinced our representatives to open up free trade.
And this is the result.
WE HAVE NOTHING TO TRADE! They cant afford our products, and our slave masters can exploit foreign slave labor WHILE taking our mighty (but in rapid decline) US dollar.
Maximize profits through cheap labor... Jus' like whipping a "nigga" in the fields. Congrats. This is what happens when you vote for elephants and donkeys.
Our country isnt stupid. Its POWERLESS.
Re:Educational Spending? (Score:2, Insightful)
Our current system does not do that either. Thus, if we are going to do it wrong, then at least do it wrong cheaper and more flixible.
Most education is actually training with increasing levels of cognitive exercise.
Please clarify.
JIT education? Man... you really have no idea how hard it is to train/educate humans. Fine for unskilled labor, like ditch digging, but where are you going to get accountants, engineers, even auto mechanics these days without a long training process?
I am not sure what you mean. Those jobs are increasingly being done by overseas labor anyhow because of the cost difference. If auto-repair comes down to just reading chip printouts, they will offshore that too. New jobs require marketing, deplomacy, and office politics skills. That is what are young people need to compete, not calculus. I am just the messenger. Us techies without people skills are doomed. Brainy education has been devalued by globalism. It is who you know, not what you know. The wealthiest in my brother's neighborhood are small business owners, often with only high-school educations. The engineers from the local HP plant are fearful for their jobs and work long hours just to avoid being chopped in the next offshoring round.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Educational Spending? (Score:3, Insightful)
As you can see, barely half of India is literate. Even in urban areas, it's only 78%. Obviously you don't need an incredibly well-educated general population to be competitive.
They've done something really forward-thinking, which a lot of people deride them for -- they've favored the few over the many to get a very well-educated base to work with. Rather than have some stupid goal like "we have to get 100% literacy!" which will take several generations and cost who knows how much, they said screw it, let's educate the smart people we know will make it. Now the small group that received so much attention is bringing in HUGE amounts of revenue (relatively).
The thing is, America already has that. So I don't know how you think MORE education is going to fix anything, unless your solution is to have a nation full of doctors and lawyers, like some kind of weird meta-service biosphere. In fact, to re-capture some industries like manufacturing, America needs LESS education, and people should stop thinking of vocational education as full of dumb people who just couldn't cut it in regular college. At least, until we have adequate robots to replace them...
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
What the fuck happened to American ingenuity, to picking yourself up by your bootstraps, to working hard and making your life better on your own and with your family and friends?
Instead you whine, "what am I supposed to do?" "Nobody is providing retraining." Where is my government assistance? Why can't I borrow more money from the government?
I'm sorry, but it really makes me want to vomit, to see how far we've sunk in the last 200 years.
Re:they're no dummies (Score:3, Insightful)
Those food prices are going to skyrocket for people in the food-producing regions just as much as for anyone else. And who will own most of the farms? Not the people working on them, certainly. Why not a corporation based in China?
Someone else here commented that capital is now completely mobile across national boundaries, but labor is not. That's the essence of the situation with which we're now faced.
The only time to be truly scared (Score:4, Insightful)
There's always going to be people who won't want to buy cheap knock offs - for example, when wrenching on the (old) Harley (the one made in the USA) I want tools that are well made, not some Harbor Freight well at least they're cheap things.
But when Ling Liong Wen Hung Flung Wuong Chang Inc. comes up with the next killer app in conjunction with RamaChandraChakraGuru Enterprises, that's when to upgrade to brown alert.
We may not be cheap, but we are usually the engines of creation. Asia does it cheap, Europe does it with style (or at least with government subsidy) - we tend to do it first and forge ahead...
Re:Thats all fine and dandy but (Score:3, Insightful)
>>determined they were necessary.
>If they are necessary then, by definition,
>everyone will follow suit or die.
What a silly idea! There is obviously a cost to exploiting or degrading (pollution) the environment. It may manifest itself in flooding (deforestation), decreased productivity from health problems (pollution), liability from lax controls resulting in damages (see: Bhopal), etc. At the same time, none of these things are going to cause humanity as a species to drop dead tomorrow--but they may collectively limit the future viability of the planet for human survival.
As a result, there is a "tragedy of the commons" scenario--we all share the environment, but the costs of exploiting it are seldom internalized, so companies are not discouraged from taking unfair advantage of it. Even if the processes are unsustainable in the long term, people will tend to take the short term view if it means they personally profit.
Re:Not so far from the truth (Score:2, Insightful)
Right now in places like Pakistan there are people getting rich by starting tiny cell phone companies. Some of them are already rich, but many people will *become* rich who weren't before.
I don't know, maybe you're trying to argue that in today's world, labor isn't free to move, but that's wrong. Americans, especially, are free to emigrate to just about any country on earth.
It does no good to delude yourself into thinking you're a victim.
Re:Global perception... (Score:2, Insightful)
It says in the Constitution that the government should "promote the general welfare." Well, I think that in 2005, promoting the general welfare can extend to assistance with education and nuturing industries in order to improve the welfare of all Americans.
BTW, the government is "We the People", i.e. you, your family, and your friends. The government shouldn't be your enemy. If it is, vote or run for office...
Re:Good. (Score:4, Insightful)
In government, there is corruption and graft, the likes of which would take any American's breath away. This is accepted as "business as usual" by the Indian populace, who see few alternatives. The average Indian citizen has nothing to gain and a lot to lose if they are the "squeaky wheel", so everyone pretty much sits quietly and takes their share of the graft. Because of this situation, Indian infrastructure (roads, wiring, communications) is in a perpetual state of near failure. The areas where this is not the case are private networks where western companies are currently pumping money in and demand a high quality of service for their money. As soon as those funds disappear, the repairs on the redundant power generators, the satellite uplinks (made by western companies) the telecom equipment and redundant trunks (made by western companies) will all fall apart.
Based on my observations, the cultural problems relevant to tech workers revolve around attitudes towards authority and strategies of pedagogy and learning. Further, the two problems are tightly coupled and coupled with the enormous power disparities between cultural groups, which makes the problems even less tractable.
The education problem can be framed as one in which the teachers pour the knowledge that the students need into the student's heads and that's what they get. This "banking" method of teaching has been long discredited for developing creative thinkers (something that American and European educational systems can list among their strengths). If you go into a bookstore in Bangalore, most of what you will find are certification training books. When you talk to outsourcing companies about the team you might be hiring, they list certifications at you and will almost refust to discuss experience.
When you go to India to work with your team, you find that unless you can frame your problem and development approach as a series of strict single-option rules, your rules will not be followed. Rules of the form, "Either (1) or (2), whichever is more readable." will result at best in 100% (1) or 100% (2) and usually neither. When you ask about a shortcoming that you've found in a review or testing, they will ask where the problems are, then wait until you tell them exactly how to fix those problems before making changes. If the problems that you have mentioned are a part of a pattern and you point out other cases of the problem, you will find that only those instances that you specifically pointed out have been changed.
In short, until Indian technology workers start treating software development as a craft, they will only be the equivalent of the "web developer" here in the US. Until the Indian educational system teaches a craft approach to problem solving, Indian software workers are unlikely to have any success at anything other than the simplest and most motonous projects. Until the culture supports asking challenging questions to teachers and team leaders, the educational system and the products of that educational system are unlikely to change in any significant way.
I liked India. I liked most of the Indians I met (the souvenier sellers were not very likeable, except for 10-year old Madhu up there on Chumundi hill in Mysore). But aside from their personal appeal, I needed to build up an honest evaluation of their suitability for use by my employer.
My conclusion after working with them for a year and being overseas for a month of that: If it's trivial detail work that doesn't require any creativity or insight into the underlying design. If the task can be specified up front and is entirely based on widespread standards, the Indian team is perfect and will do a good job.
If, on the other hand, the module is core to the system, if the module requires careful design, if the requirements are poorly understood, if we need to have a lot
Re:Global perception... (Score:2, Insightful)
I see a rising Euro and a falling dollar. I see a protectionist America and a Europe fighting for free trade.
I see an American on Slashdot who is unable to comprehend the truth - that America is not invulnerable, that the American empire is doomed to fall, just like the British and the Spanish and the Ottomans and the Franks and the Romans.
Europe has been great, and Europe has lost its empires, and Europe has adjusted to a post-imperial existence. America is great now, and America's empire has never been greater than today. But America's empire shall fall. Get used to the idea now - it'll make it easier for you to come to terms with the inevitable when it happens.
Re:Educational Spending? (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Educational Spending? (Score:1, Insightful)
In general, profit-maximising firms must buy the lowest-cost goods, which means those produced in the regions with the lowest labour costs (and usually lowest environmental standards, human rights, etc.) in order to remain competitive with other profit-maximising firms. Most consumers are also unwilling to pay a large premium to avoid buying foreign goods (where there's only a small price difference, things like putting a little flag on the local goods can offset it).
Even though I'm sceptical of globalisation, if you stopped buying foreign goods, there would be enormous inflation in America, because American workers (like workers here in Europe) get paid much more than, for example, Chinese and Indian ones. This would show up in prices, and the end result would be many fewer goods and services per person (ie a much poorer society), but perhaps greater social equality and stability.
Another way to improve social equality and stability is welfare statism, which works pretty well here in northern Europe. However, it may not be possible to sustain it in the long run, as long as globalisation continues to advance.
Re:There is simply no way... (Score:3, Insightful)
Our education system has been screwed over by a mindset in this country that says don't do anything that might make someone feel bad. If a kid is slow at math, it's not because they're slow...the math program must be too difficult! Dumb it down! The SAT scores are low...it's not because the people taking it don't know anything..it must be too difficult. Dumb it down! We tell our kids, "If you think it's too hard, we'll make it easy as crapping your pants honey!" It does our education system no damn good, and we should be pushing our students HARD to do well in school. Make them learn. 99% of the time, all of the "challenged" kids in schools are just too damn lazy to do the work, and thus don't learn. But people in the country are too eager to "help" these kids out and boost their self esteems by sacrificing everyone else's education.
Do you think the Chinese and Indians care if a kid can't keep up with the classword? No, they don't. We shouldn't be holding all of our students back just because there are some who just don't get the material.
We have enough funds. All the money in the world won't help out education system if we keep doing things the way we are. We need to start teaching and stop coddling.
Re:Oh no!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
You are aware that the only reason it was "made in Kentucky" was due to the "bureaucratic masterminds" in our country that placed import quotas on Japanese cars in the late seventies and early eighties? I find your faith in the power of free thoughts and markets in opposition to that of unbridaled economic power to be touching - naive, but touching. Power begets a desire for more power. Why do you think that econimic power is any different? In reality, unless free-thinking people band together to reign in economic power early via some sort of organized effort (like... let's say... a government?), they will have no choice but to reign it in later, when the price paid to do so will be much greater and generally involve much more blood.
Re:Bet this surprises most /.ers (Score:3, Insightful)
is there more to what makes a popular president than you say?
If you had read my post, you would have seen that it said "generally". This is an important word.
Re: Where the consumers are. The bigger picture. (Score:1, Insightful)
Western influence will continue to wane and we are seeing the begining of end game strategy play out now, where a few well placed governmental trade hacks and their cronies have a sustainable long term evolutionary strategy. Only they are well positioned to accept bribes (or excuse me, campaign contributions) or receive sweetheart deals as the result of "free" trade agreement. They get a free lunch while you and your family eats sh@t and falls sucker to their PR team who makes you feel like "you are a winner" or better yet "about to be rewarded in the afterlife for good behavior".
China and Saudi Arabia already their man in Washington (Bush), who, surprise, surprise, has neither an energy policy (other than buy more oil from Saudi Arabia), a fiscal policy (other than more borrowing money from the Chinese, Japanese, and Saudis), nor a program to maintain leadership in high tech (other than weaponry, and Oh Yea a trip to Mars). Last week the US pulled out of high energy physics and is busy dismantling long standing governmental funding programs for other high tech university research for short term tax cuts for their friends (excuse me, campaign contributors) and to appease the right wing of his party who want to see an end of the biomedical/biotech industry in the US for religious reasons.
Money will increasingly flow to Chinese/Indian/Saudi markets, until they no longer have any use for our IOU's. This will occur once their technical advances elsewhere make US military hardware obsolete or largely dependent on overseas suppliers of electronic subcomponents.
The solution is obviously to elect Jeb Bush president so he can pass a constitutional amendment permitting his brother to run for president again. Most Americans are just a few short steps from being in a vegetative state anyway. I can hear the campaign promises now, "400 shopping only channels, a feeding tube, and a TV monitor in the security of your bedroom".
Praise the Lord. I can't wait to be saved. Where do I stand in line to get my social security benefits cut by 40%?
Re:Flank them (Score:3, Insightful)
You are aware that both China and India are already ivesting in these areas, as well? China is already the main place for siting MEMS foundaries and India's pharmaceutical companies are providing a lot of the drugs for the third world already.
R&D in these areas are being done by Indian and Chinese nationals, even in the US. Why do you think that we have some advantage in this area?
Re:In the US, we have some problems... (Score:3, Insightful)
We have a bit of a "chicken and egg" problem among business leaders in the US. Bill Gates, Carly, etc. have complained about the lack of tech graduates, but their outsourcing practices only exacerbate the problem. Perhaps the young folks are smarter than we think they are: they know which way the wind is blowing.
Re:Good on them (Score:3, Insightful)
If you think that is a problem, stop doing it. You don't need self destructive protectionist state controls, you just need to do something different when you shop.
In fact, the main problem with the US economy currently is that you re-elected a don't-tax-but-spend-anyway government and so are selling the whole place to China at bargain prices to stave off total fiscal collapse for a few months more.
Re:Global perception... (Score:5, Insightful)
Thanks, but no thanks. Even Adam Smith admitted that while completely unrestricted free trade benefits the economic system as a whole, it can lead to regional economic disasters. He didn't see this as much of a problem because in Smith's time there was no such thing as globalization; nowadays a 'regional economic disaster' could encompass the entire United States. The wealth of the global economy can easily increase while the wealth of the United States, specifically, declines; the health of the system of the whole improves, but that doesn't mean shit to the citizens of the U.S. who no longer have a job.
As a U.S. citizen, I'm really not interested in pissing away my country's economic power to improve the global economy. I'm far more interested in the health of the United States than any nebulous 'greater good'. People who only have the fuzziest grasp of economics seem to think that free trade will automagically improve their specific lot in life, if given time; but Smith never said anything of the sort, a fact that many people are ignorant of, or deliberately ignore, or simply lie about because their particular delusion about what 'free trade' really means is their holy grail.
There is no guarantee that American industry will "rise again". The only guarrantee is that the world economy as a whole will improve in terms of absolute wealth. That doesn't mean that any of that wealth will be distributed regionally to the United States, nor that the U.S. economy won't decline over time. Anyone who thinks otherwise would do with some solid re-education in basic economic theory.
Max
Re:Good. (Score:5, Insightful)
Max
Re:Oh no!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Power begets a desire for more power. Why do you think that governments are any different?
If you're really worried about Chinese, Eastern Europeans, and the rest of the bogeymen, there is something you can do about them: push for governmental reform. Lower the income tax to 10%, elimintate 80% of the cabinet departments, and get rid of "Government is your granny" entitlements like Social Security and Medicare.
If you'd like to learn some basics about how economies function, I recommend this book [amazon.com] by Thomas Sowell. While you're at it, buy a copy for that wacko who thinks a government-mandated push for biodiesel is going to solve all our problems.
Re:Educational Spending? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Chinese Hardware & Indian Software (Score:1, Insightful)
Thats the problem with the Patriotic Americans. While they can spend 15 minutes bashing other countries, they cannot make themselves spend 5 minutes to google the national language of india... jeez.... make some effort guys !
Re:they're no dummies (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Not so far from the truth (Score:3, Insightful)
Most rich people start out from wealth. The rags-to-riches myth is the exception, not the rule. Not only that, but you have to play the game, buy into the owning class world view before they let you play in their club.
Saying that anyone with talent and motivation can get rich is a slap in the face to everyone the world over who has both and is still poor. It ignores the fact that the system that creates rich people depends on the existence of poor people. Obviously not everyone could become rich, for who would be left to profit off of? Riches don't materialize out of thin air. Someone somewhere worked to create those riches, and most likely, someone else who didn't do nearly as much hard work profited off of that hard work.
It does no good to believe the system is perfect and the playing field is level when it's not.
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ineffective pedantry. If I write a proposal for some project because I want software to do task X, it follows that the proposed project performs task X. Likewise, if I wrote a constitution to "promote the general Welfare", I would expect that the government defined within that constitution would promote the general Welfare, amongst the other purposes cited.
Cheap goods from free trades (Score:3, Insightful)
Where you are unable to benefits from outsourced goods/services is where the higher level of US wages make the real impact: Real Estate, transportation, personal services (education, health care, etc.) (Check out the Paul Krugman column in the NYT on how the rising costs of health care impact both companies and individuals. Always an insightful read.) The US businesses are subject to most of these same costs unless they can PHSICALLY locate their operations offshore.
Thus, it is very interesting how the current political Powers that Be is refusing to remove tax BENEFITS to company with oversea operations. For ideological reasons, they refuse to enact changes that might somewhat recover these savings when US companies relocate offshore.
Re:Global perception... (Score:3, Insightful)
In general, american workers are not unmotivated or incompetent. The fact that SOME are doesn't mean that all are, or even most.
My statement was that a significant number of American employees are not dedicated due to their workplace environment and treatment. This was in comparison to some other countries, although not all of them. The original poster stated "There is nothing lacking in the skill, talent and dedication of American employees." He is wrong. American employees in general are not dedicated and there are real and valid reasons for that.
Re:Global perception... (Score:1, Insightful)
Try telling that to General Motors. (Score:3, Insightful)
Today, after lots of plant closings, the UAW has realized that they need to work together with the company to find solutions that build the business as a whole while maintaining a fair cut for them.
Try telling that to General Motors, which is required by its UAW contracts to pay employees for NOT working [hence GM is forced to sell cars at a loss, under "Zero Percent Financing" schemes, just to keep their assembly lines running - i.e. they would lose even more money if the assembly lines were idle, because they would still be responsible for paying the same wages as if the assembly lines were running].
To see what this has done to GM, search the recent news headlines for general+motors+junk [google.com].
That doesn't mean organized labor is inherently bad.
Au contraire, organized ANYTHING is bad, and organized labor is particularly bad.
Re:Educational Spending? (Score:1, Insightful)
Inflated? One euro today buys 1.30 US dollars, when the purchasing power is estimated to be between 1.00-1.20 US dollars per euro (more likely in the lower range). The US dollar is undervalued compared to the euro and other European currencies. It's only overvalued compared to poor countries (where there is little confidence in the currencies) and East Asian countries where low exchange rate policies are used to boost exports (like China).
The Purchasing Power Parity of the Yuan to the Dollar is more than a factor of three. That is, a third of an amount in Yuan will buy the same types and quality of goods in China as it takes using US dollars to buy those goods in the US. For example, spend 400 Yuan and get the equivalent of more than 1200 USD in items in China.
Yes, this is just what I said: the Chinese yuan is extremely undervalued. What your example has shown is that the Chinese yuan should buy three times as many US dollars as it does, which means Chinese exports to the American market should cost three times as much as they do (and Chinese exports to Europe should cost more than three times as much as they do).
Some have even suggested the Chinese yuan is undervalued against the US dollar by a factor of 5, rather than 3 as you suggest. Moreover, the US dollar is weak compared to the euro and other currencies here in Europe, which means the yuan is even more undervalued against our currencies. The most important thing is that the exchange rate of the Chinese yuan is unilaterally fixed to the US dollar, and not allowed to float. It is deliberately set to a low level to boost exports. In contrast, the US dollar is weak because markets have little confidence in current American economic policy.
Worker rights must be balanced with worker productivity and value produced-otherwise China will take the same path into temporary dominance followed by vast decline that the US had.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean here!
Re:Bullshit (Score:1, Insightful)
It is very unproffessional to sell a product in another country with badly written documentation. If a company has not taken the time to get a proficient native speaker (most native speakers are very prone to creating errors), that may indicate that they have not taken the care to ensure the quality of their product either.
Saying that someone has bad English is not being rascist, it is telling the truth (if they do indeed have bad English).
And yes, having Engrish on products intended for the English market has plenty to do with lazy translators, and inferior education in the English language (though not neccesarily inferior education in other areas). What you said about the style icons is indeed true, however, these style icons are only appropriate if intended for (in particular) the Asian market.
And a lot of the "style icons" are not as benevolent as you think. A lot of them if translated directly into Chinese or Japanese would not mean anything bad. But because of a lot of colloquialist sayings, they actually mean bad things in English and I am sure that a lot of the time they do this on purpose.
English happens to be my third language, but I don't see myself distributing "Engrish" all throughout my writing, although my way of explaining myself may seem a little odd. But I believe that a lot of these people could have taken a little bit more effort into perfecting their English, and in the end, it does reflect on laziness.
Although I can write in Korean, I would never trust myself to actually use that in a professional situation as I know it is far from perfect. I would firstly make sure that I had learnt perfect grammar before proceeding to desecrate the name of my company with bad translations.
Re:they're no dummies (Score:1, Insightful)
War.
I thought we just went to war for oil?
Seriously, is anyone surprised at this story? The United States 'outsourced' their manufacturing to China, and outsourced much of their IT to India. We f@#$ing GAVE them the expertise, and now they're going to come back and crush us...
What DOES the United States produce now? Weapons, bad movies, food - and with food we import more than we export. That's just sooo wrong.
The United States economy is overdue for a crash that will make 1929 look like a cloudy afternoon. Our entire economy is built on debt - at the personal level and at the government level. What happens when the entire country declares bankruptcy?
Stock up on canned goods & ammunition...
Re: Don't kid yourself pal. (Score:1, Insightful)
The most recent comparison I've seen suggested that, today, official unemployment rates in the industrialised countries are broadly comparable. There used to be big differences, but not so much any more. Unemployment in the UK and USA really is a lot lower than in France and Germany (this does not apply to all of the EU!), but social inequality and levels of severe poverty are much higher in the UK/USA.
Re:Who writes the docs? (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps discussing we be over excellent british food washed down with bull's blood ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h wine excellent Spain from.
hawk