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Congress Declares War on File Leakers 1345

An anonymous reader submits "Bush is expected to sign a law that essentially makes it a crime punishable by up to three years in jail for a user to put a single 'copy of a film, software program or music file in a shared folder and should have known the copyrighted work had not been commercially released.' Whichever side you're on in the copyright debate, you have to agree this legislation is draconian and excessive, to say the least."
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Congress Declares War on File Leakers

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  • Draconian? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Jhon ( 241832 ) * on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:19PM (#12295004) Homepage Journal
    Whichever side you're on in the copyright debate, you have to agree this legislation is draconian and excessive, to say the least."
    I don't think its draconian. To me, it seems that if You release a copywrited work without authority BEFORE it's commercial release it's a FAR larger crime than ripping and sharing the latest DVD release or previously broadcast TV show.

    Why? The damages are greater to the copywrite holder.

    Yes, I believe copywrite law is being abused (by both the (c) holder AND the (c) violator) -- however, this doesn't appear to me to be an abuse...
  • by xmas2003 ( 739875 ) * on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:20PM (#12295013) Homepage
    The submission uses the term "user" and the article (yes, I did RTFA) doesn't clarify what happens if the offending data is placed on a public web site - i.e. uploaded to a forum. I also look at the actual bill - the Family Entertainment and Copyright Act [loc.gov] but was not able to figure the answer out. So is there a "common carrier" defense for those web site that perhaps unknowingly carry stuff?

    Enjoyed my fun little christmas hoax [komar.org] - help me do it for real! ;-) [komar.org]

  • by Travelsonic ( 870859 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:21PM (#12295026) Journal
    An anonymous reader submits "Bush is expected to sign a law that essentially makes it a crime punishable by up to three years in jail for a user to put a single 'copy of a film, software program or music file in a shared folder and
    should have known the copyrighted work had not been commercially released.' Whichever side you're on in the copyright debate, you have to agree this legislation is draconian and excessive, to say the least."
    So, does this mean that having indiependent or other artists who have music sold on CD, but also has free tracks to download come to an end if this is enforced in the context I read it as?
  • Well, shit. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Grendel Drago ( 41496 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:22PM (#12295040) Homepage
    That's it, I'm going to go shoplift, commit massive fraud against individuals, and torture cute things in full view of the public, because none of that is nearly as bad as filesharing. After all, it only hurts people, not corporations.

    John Rowland [wikipedia.org] defrauded the state of Connecticut, and will be serving a measly single fucking year for it. Pimply-faced teenagers will spend more time being rectally plundered by delinquents named "Li'l Dawg" than our esteemed public servant will for racketeering, conspiract, et al.

    ARGH!

    --grendel drago
  • Draconian (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Blitzenn ( 554788 ) * on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:23PM (#12295053) Homepage Journal
    My god, I hope sooner or later people wake up to what is happening in this country. We have absolutely lost any semblence of 'punishment fits the crime'. How can 3 years in jail be justified by sharing a single copy of a pre-release movie. Granted it's theft, but theft of one $8.00 movie ticket at the most. Even if it is stealing (which I do consider it), three years in jail is just stupidly over-reactionary and overtly excessive. Of course a possible 25 year prison sentence for spamming is right up there too. Sure I hate spam and it pee's me off, but 25 years in jail? Then lump the loss of due process with the DMCA and you start to see a middle ages picture being drawn here. Isn't this what the founding fathers of our country came here to escape?
  • by Jailbrekr ( 73837 ) <jailbrekr@digitaladdiction.net> on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:23PM (#12295055) Homepage
    I download music. I download movies. I also buy music and movies.

    Having said that, I agree with this law. Why? Because it is specifically targetting the ones who ARE depriving the studios and artists of revenue. Releasing something that hasn't hit the streets yet SHOULD be illegal. I can only hope that they do not use this as a stepping stone to get all copyright infringement turned into a criminal act, instead of the current civil status.

  • by chroot_james ( 833654 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:23PM (#12295057) Homepage
    I have played in bands for years and my friends have to. Most of them are very techy and post things to share for opinions with other people involved in the process of creating the files that are to be released. Things such as checking mixes or guitar sounds or whathaveyou. Is there any clarification as to what defines the poster and their relation to the work?
  • by operagost ( 62405 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:24PM (#12295064) Homepage Journal
    I'm a regular Pollyanna, I know ...

    [S.167.RH] [loc.gov]

  • What the?! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by DoubleDangerClub ( 855480 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:24PM (#12295073) Homepage
    The problem here is that if they get this ball rolling, what's to stop it from becoming about any file in any format?? What about all my free uncopyrighted music, are they going to arrest me and then say, "Woops, sorry."???

    We need to stop this.
  • by isdnip ( 49656 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:29PM (#12295153)
    This law works on two levels. Its primary backing, of course, is Hollywood, and they have a decent case that file leaking -- especially review DVDs loaned under nondisclosure -- can undermine their business model. Okay, I get it, though the penalties do look awfully harsh.

    But this also appears to apply to anyone who "leaks" information that the owner doesn't really want out there, ever. Without a deadline on the "release" date, material can be embargoed forever. That's how Big Brother can put information into a Memory Hole, and put anyone who lets it out into Room 101. It accompanies the DMCA stream that makes information Go Away Permanently when its DRM is made unreadable: If it's on a short-lived medium (some DVDs and CDs) and can't be copied, or uses a DRM that is time-limited, then once it goes, it goes, and trying to keep the information alive becomes a Crime Against The State. These secondary agendas are not obvious to the mainstream press, but the Fatherland Security Police apparatus is well aware of how these laws can be used against political opponents.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:29PM (#12295157)
    A boycott can't be the only answer. Content distributors have distorted the meaning and legal framework of copyright far beyond the intent of the country's founders, finally with Chimpy moving from the civil to the criminal arena it changes the foundations of society. Sharing has been replaced with litigation. And for what? Hollywood profits? Future generations will revile us for it.
  • Sue them! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by photonic ( 584757 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:31PM (#12295191)
    So does this mean that - for a change - the record companies [marketingshift.com] themselves are on the receiving end?? (Linked article claims that major record companies are actively 'leaking' new singles onto popular blogs to get positive reviews.)

  • "Force multiplier" (Score:3, Interesting)

    by PornMaster ( 749461 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:32PM (#12295209) Homepage
    Just like the armed services talk about sophisticated weapons as force multipliers, you really have to consider the effects which leaking pre-release movies can have. Granted, it's a bigger effect if the movie really sucks, since everyone can determine for himself, but...

    Granted it's theft, but theft of one $8.00 movie ticket at the most.

    Not at all. They're trying to stop the filesharing at the source with this. Keep people from leaking the movie in the first place. To go with your analogy, it's like stealing the ticket machine and giving it to a guy at Kinkos who can make reasonable facsimiles to get everyone in town into the movie.
  • Comment removed (Score:2, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:34PM (#12295239)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Golias ( 176380 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:36PM (#12295267)
    Whichever side you're on in the copyright debate, you have to agree this legislation is draconian and excessive, to say the least."

    I am on the side of reducing copyright to a more reasonable time-frame. Five years after the death of the author would be plenty, IMHO.

    Were I a King of the US, I would declare that getting rid of copyright entirely would be even better. People wrote some pretty good stuff before the concept of copyright existed, so I disagree that it would all disappear after it was wiped out.

    And I do not "have to agree" that it's "draconian" and in fact, I don't agree.

    If you are going to bother to have copyright law matter at all, the only way to effectively enforce it is to come down hard on the first person to illegally distribute it. Once it's scattered all over usenet and various torrent sites, it's too late to do jack shit about it.

    So, unless everybody wants to agree to my kooky libertarian ideal of abolishing copyright entirely (and we all know that such a thing will never happen), then we need a big hammer to enforce the law as it exists.
  • by FunWithHeadlines ( 644929 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:39PM (#12295332) Homepage
    "...how the countless "shared folders" containing "prerelase copyrighted works" on untold numbers of compromised Windows boxes on university campuses will be handled..."

    Simple. Lock up every college kid in the country, and then see what their parents think of this new legislation.

  • Re:Draconian? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Cid Highwind ( 9258 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:39PM (#12295333) Homepage
    Sorry, but that's not the case anymore.

    This is a federal law, and under policies enacted by former attorney general John Ashcroft federal prosecutors are required to prosecute for the crime with the highest possible sentence (no more plea-bargaining a file leaking charge down to petty theft), and if the suspect is convicted federal judges are required to impose the maximum possible sentence for that crime.

    There's no room for the judge to apply common sense in US federal courts anymore. Under present policy, if you are convicted of file leaking you will go to federal "pound me in the ass" prison for a full three years, no questions asked.
  • by deadhead4321 ( 759101 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:43PM (#12295384)
    Interesting. On the one hand they stiffen the penalties for piracy of unreleased materials and the other hand they legalize the highjacking of materials by editing content against the copyright holders will. Something tells me the whole bill will not pass judicial review. If the Christian right wants more to have material that meets there standards then they should have to create and find a market. Not "steal it" and push it into their market.
  • by mcc ( 14761 ) <amcclure@purdue.edu> on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:46PM (#12295422) Homepage
    Otherwise, why even pirate this crap?

    I've never so much as considered attempting to download a movie. The amount of effort that goes into pirating such things when you could just drive to a video store and pay a very reasonable couple of bucks boggles my mind. But honestly, at this point I'm inclined to just start pirating movies in bulk without even ever watching a single one of them, just for the purpose of distributing them to others. The movie industry feels like their customers are insidious little criminals out to destroy them? Well fine. Then I want to actually start acting like one.

    They shit on the laws of my country, I start shitting on them. It's the least they deserve.
  • Re:Draconian? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Crim-Prof ( 862698 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:49PM (#12295465)

    Let me put this into perspective. If I was to beat you with a pipe but do not cause serious long term issues, it would still be aggravated assault but would net me maybe 3-5 years in prison.

    While I agree the damage to the copyright holder is more egregious, prison is not the answer. If you want to deter the behavior you take out the benefit. Fines work for this behavior. Remember the prison system can not hold the current criminals; all we are doing is creating laws to create new criminality that requires incarceration.

    If and when we deduct portions of these individuals pay automatically, it will actually reduce the behavior. All of those people sued and who have paid are not engaging in the behavior. Of all the research I have conducted, reducing anonymity and having an actual punishment for engaging in the behavior works.

    One research project I worked on involved sending letters to random college students regarding their "perceived" engagement in copyright infringement. We then monitored their internet usage. 66% of those students bandwidth usage was reduced by half.

  • by IronChefMorimoto ( 691038 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:51PM (#12295499)
    I see folks calling this proposal "draconian." It sounds to me, and I did NOT RTFA as of this post, that a max. 3 year sentence is not so much OVERKILL and DRACONIAN as it is a DETERRANT to those who might think about violating the law.

    Granted, it's a little nuts, but think about it -- some kid starts seeing a PSA on TV and reading online hearing about other kids getting threatened with 3 years max. for violating the law? Shit -- if I were a parent, I'd think "family" in terms of this law, 'cause spending money to defend my kid for something he probably shouldn't have been doing in the first place affects my fucking "family" financially.

    Personally, it sounds like a horseshit law in the works, but most of the ones coming from DC these days are horseshit. However, as a deterrant, 3 years for, say, my kid violating the law is plenty effective.

    IronChefMorimoto
  • by drgonzo59 ( 747139 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:51PM (#12295501)
    Good point, what about part of file. What if instead of having a single full file, I have fragments of files and I have the rest of the fragments in My Documents directory. Everyone on a P2P network would also do the same, but would have different fragments shared. Then if I want use/play the file, I would combine the fragments and have a full file in a non-shared folder somewhere. This means I can both share and use the files yet I am not sharing any single full file. Would that work as a quick dirty fix? Anyone know what is the smallest part of the content that I would be found guilty for sharing. The lowest limit it 1 bit, I know I can have 1 bit without them coming after me. But then there is the full file on the other extreme, I know I will go to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for that. So where is the cutoff limit?

    It seems the bastards cannot legally check my non-shared directories without physically taking my machine away, but they can easily see and record what I share.

  • by DarthVeda ( 569302 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:56PM (#12295560)
    So do multiple files aggregate then? Say there were multiple offenses. Would one then receive life imprisonment for a massive amount of file transfers?

    Axe murderer: What are you in for?

    File swapper: I shared a master copy of Britney Spear's newest cd before it was released.

    Axe murderer: The Villainy!
  • by ManuelKelly ( 446655 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:58PM (#12295581)
    This bill was introduced by the notorious pirate Hatch. It seems to read like a preliminary to a more restrictive law. IANAL, but it seems to me that it would actually be hard to convict a casual file sharer.

    An excert:
    (a) Prohibited Acts- Section 506(a) of title 17, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

    `(a) Criminal Infringement-

    `(1) IN GENERAL- Any person who willfully infringes a copyright shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18, if the infringement was committed--

    `(A) for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain;

    `(B) by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000; or

    `(C) by the distribution of a work being prepared for commercial distribution, by making it available on a computer network accessible to members of the public, if such person knew or should have known that the work was intended for commercial distribution.

    `(2) EVIDENCE- For purposes of this subsection, evidence of reproduction or distribution of a copyrighted work, by itself, shall not be sufficient to establish willful infringement of a copyright.

    `(3) DEFINITION- In this subsection, the term `work being prepared for commercial distribution' means--

    `(A) a computer program, a musical work, a motion picture or other audiovisual work, or a sound recording, if, at the time of unauthorized distribution--

    `(i) the copyright owner has a reasonable expectation of commercial distribution; and

    `(ii) the copies or phonorecords of the work have not been commercially distributed; or

    `(B) a motion picture, if, at the time of unauthorized distribution, the motion picture--

    `(i) has been made available for viewing in a motion picture exhibition facility; and

    `(ii) has not been made available in copies for sale to the general public in the United States in a format intended to permit viewing outside a motion picture exhibition facility.'.
  • Am I a criminal? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jc42 ( 318812 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:58PM (#12295586) Homepage Journal
    ... makes it a crime punishable by up to three years in jail for a user to put a single 'copy of a film, software program or music file in a shared folder and should have known the copyrighted work had not been commercially released.

    A literal reading of this would say that some music files that I and a few friends made and put online are going to become illegal. Consider:

    1) The files are copyrighted by default (by us).

    2) We haven't released these files commercially.

    3) The files are online, on my web site.

    Are they really making it illegal for people to put their own files online without first releasing them commercially?

    This sounds like they're basically outlawing the act of giving things out for free. You can only sell things; you can't give your own things away as a present.

    I suppose this wouldn't be surprising, coming from the Bush administration.

    I've also put a number of small scripts online, for the benefit of anyone who might find them useful. They're too small to sell. They must be copyrighted since in the US, everything is copyrighted by default. So it sounds like those giving out those little scripts is soon to be an illegal act.

    I wonder what the chances are that the courts would toss this law?

  • WAR on Viruses (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Spy der Mann ( 805235 ) <`moc.liamg' `ta' `todhsals.nnamredyps'> on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @03:58PM (#12295591) Homepage Journal
    Due to the fact that many zombie machines can be manipulated to publish copyrighted content, to say the least, why not make a war on people who design weak operating systems knowing that they can be exploited with evil purposes?

    In other words: How do you know the files in my shared folder weren't put there by hackers who exploited yet another vulnerability in Microsoft Windows? (remember the case of the planted warez [slashdot.org] in Sweden?)
  • by davidwr ( 791652 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @04:02PM (#12295637) Homepage Journal
    How many children or grandchildren of Congressmen and Congresswomen are already in violation of this new law?
  • by drgonzo59 ( 747139 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @04:03PM (#12295651)
    I see, but in that case it is still messed up because it would seem easy for someone to plant any file into my full-of-trojans machine (as an example) and then report me to the authorities. Then would I still be liable? What if I am guilty and then remove all the protection software and infect my computer with trojans when they come to take it, I'll say, sorry I am a sociology professor and I have no clue how to use computers, it has been acting "strange" lately.
    To fix this loophole they would have to prosecute the ones that they can prove weren't infected with anything and just did it to themselves to get away.
  • by sumdumass ( 711423 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @04:15PM (#12295817) Journal
    The movie industry feels like their customers are insidious little criminals out to destroy them? Well fine. Then I want to actually start acting like one.

    Thats what happens when they release 'garbage' and inflate the prices. You get a real parinoid executive that fears the failings of what hi is responsible for is his fault and try to place the blame on others.

    I'm with ya on the doing it because your tired of being treated like you do it already. It appears that others are thinking the same. I'm not sure if it would change anyhting though. I'm reminded of smoking my first joint. I only did it becasue everyone was telling me not to. At home, school and church, all i heard was don't do it so i had to try it and see what all the fuss was about. I guess this is simular to that and people will start doing it the mor they are told they can't.
  • by thisissilly ( 676875 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @04:19PM (#12295857)
    Five years after the death of the author would be plenty, IMHO.

    I prefer fixed terms of no more than 56 years in length (preferably shorter, maybe around 20 years). Why?

    Life+5 years gives $BigPublishingCompany or $BigFilmCompany large incentives to see that Stephen King (or any other big-selling author) has an unfortunate "accident". Five years later, they no longer have to pay his estate any royalties on his works.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @04:29PM (#12295994)
    I think you're a tool, so it's ok for me to duplicate your house keys. Right?

    WTF are you talking about? What does his house keys has to do with digital information? If you want to make comparisons, think digital information as an apple tree that has an infinite supply of apples.
  • by EllisDees ( 268037 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @04:38PM (#12296102)
    Such corporations couldn't exist at all without the government giving them the legal right to exist. As a libertarian, the idea of giving a corportation any of the rights of a person is completely disgusting to me.
  • War (Score:3, Interesting)

    by pete-classic ( 75983 ) <hutnick@gmail.com> on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @04:40PM (#12296140) Homepage Journal
    I call for a war on wars. We are prosecuting far too many wars on the citizens of this country and the world. I call for the peaceful coexistence with drugs, poverty, illiteracy, spyware, cancer, AIDS, Iraq, and terror.

    As an alternative, I propose that we redirect our energy into mercilessly punishing people who victimize other people, and let the rest slide.

    We should have a war on terrorists, gangsters, and crooks.

    -Peter
  • by jaaron ( 551839 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @04:45PM (#12296201) Homepage
    Alternately, you could argue that since the work isn't available for sale at all, you aren't costing them a dime.

    Doesn't matter. Copyright is the right to distribute. Commercialization is something completely separate. In other words, it doesn't matter if I'm going to give it away for free, or for profit, or even at all, if I hold the copyright of a work, you have no right to distribute the work whatsoever unless you have my permission.
  • Re:Draconian? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @04:51PM (#12296275)
    There is a sense that I've gotten from a great deal of feedback like yours in the last 5-10 years, that Congress should be doing different things, but can you imagine how much better off as a nation we (sorry, intl. readers) would be if congress would just do fewer, more informed things?

    You are showing that you have faith in their doing their jobs well. They have proven that they cannot do that.

    They should not be permitted to put the issues that paper persons have above those of flesh and blood ones.
  • Orwell was wrong ... (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @04:57PM (#12296335)
    ... in future majority of criminals aren't thought criminals, but digital information criminals.
  • by xoboots ( 683791 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @04:58PM (#12296352) Journal
    "Or are you implying that the US somehow forces these things on poor unsuspecting nations?"

    Pretty much but the attempt is usually to make it sound more innocuous than that. Further, while it affects countries like Costa Rica, it also affects much larger economies like Canada and Australia. But I'm not going to spell it out -- it is well discussed elsewhere. The US is a net exporter of demostic policies through various international organizations and bodies.

    Yet, my outrage should be tempered: it is not the US, per se, but the multi-national corporations and the minions they own who do their bidding that deserve my scorn. Really, I'm just disheartened. Historically, *only* and I mean *only* the US could have stood up against represive forces like this. For a good portion of my life I really believed that America fought the good fight. Now, it feels like there is no one left to do it.
  • 'copy of a film, software program or music file in a shared folder and should have known the copyrighted work had not been commercially released.'
    Now, let me get this straight. If I take a home movie of my kid's birthday party (which I know has not been commercially released) and I put it in the "Shared Documents" folder on my home computer, I'm now a felon?
  • by zotz ( 3951 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @05:57PM (#12296926) Homepage Journal
    " Rapists can get less time than this..."

    This is one of the big problems I have with these sorts of laws. You seem to face a smaller penalty for going into a store and actually stealing the CDs or DVDs.

    Is that what we really want to teach people to do?

    all the best,

    drew
  • Why watch? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Evil Poot Cat ( 69870 ) <{repairpack} {at} {gmail.com}> on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @06:57PM (#12297466)
    You folks who still watch movies after all this legislation are like a pack of beaten wives. Why should you even bother going out of your way to feed The Racket? "Because you love them!"

    Grow a pair, eat a sammich, and don't give The Racket your piece of mindshare.

  • by cpt kangarooski ( 3773 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @08:07PM (#12298062) Homepage
    In order to get the rights to make a movie of the material while it's still copyrighted, the film studio might agree to pay royalties to the author's estate forever - in which case they don't benefit from the author's death.

    Well, it's been held that a similar arrangement for patent royalties is unlawful, since it tries to be equivalent to an unlimited duration patent. I don't recall a copyright case to the same effect, but the argument wouldn't be hard to make. Royalties basically stop at the end of the term.

    All that said, I'm not sure that "5 years after author's death" is the best choice. Just because you create a creative work doesn't guarantee you profits for life. You want income, you need to keep producing. How about 20 years from the date of publication? I think that's pretty generous.

    I agree, but I think there should be more granularity. After all, some works are only of commercial viability very briefly, while others could use a longer span of time.

    So I think copyright should last 5 years from publication (where publication is more broadly defined than it is now), and be renewable four times. Renewing it would have to occur in the final year of the preceeding term, and increasing fees would accompany it, so that people wouldn't sit on works merely to deprive the public domain of them, but only bother to keep within copyright those works that they felt would be profitable to them. By requiring formalities to get a copyright to begin with, we also avoid the idiotic 1976 policy of copyrighting every stupid little thing automatically. Most things would be p.d., and copyright would be reserved for things where it was important to the author to seek it. This closely approximates granting copyrights only to works where it is necessary to get them to be created in the first place, since it's wasteful protection if not needed for the work to've been created. We might bar renewal terms for short-lived works such as software. Later versions might get their own derivative (or full-fledged, if a total rewrite) copyrights, but since most software doesn't remain viable for long, and since we want the public domain to have works useful to the public, and not just junk, this seems reasonable.
  • by cpt kangarooski ( 3773 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @08:28PM (#12298214) Homepage
    You're both wrong.

    The purpose of copyright is to maximally benefit the public. This is done by causing as many original and derivative works to be created as possible and then to enter the public domain as rapidly as possible. Note that the creation and public domain requirements have affects on the other. Maximizing either alone is probably a bad idea.

    The disposition of authors is irrelevant on its own terms -- we're only interested in them to the extent that we're trying to wring works out of them as efficiently as possible.

    Kind of like how a farmer might coerce a donkey into doing useful labor by dangling a carrot in front of him. The donkey would prefer to do no work and eat all carrots. The farmer is the boss though, and wants the most work for the least carrots. He's willing to invest a little, but not so much that the donkey is no longer worth it. Authors are basically working animals.

    The main problem with your post is that you are hopelessly optimistic. The vast, vast, vast majority of works created have no economic value whatsoever that derives from their copyright. The fraction of a percent of works left has some.

    For that fraction, the vast, vast, vast majority of those works with any copyright-derived value at all will see all that value realized almost immediately. Basically, this second majority is just a first-to-market advantage. For example, 90% of the profit of a book will be made within the first three months or so after its initial release. This is because virtually everyone that wants it will want it asap. Even if there were no copyright law, since it would take time for competing publishers to gear up for their own printing and distribution, the first one would get well rewarded. A copyright during this first bit of time just helps. It doesn't mean that one is needed forever.

    Only the teeniest, tiniest number of works has long term (i.e. over 1 year) substantial economic viability.

    Authors that are in favor of long term copyrights because they think they'll actually make enough money from them to support their family during their life, and even after their death, are probably better off playing the lottery.

    Frankly, if you're worried about this, don't fucking pass long copyright laws. Pass social welfare laws, and encourage people to get life insurance policies. Not only are they far more reliable (unlike the magic beans you essentially propose) but you don't have to be an author in order to take advantage of them! Everyone can do it.

    Your thing is just silly. IIRC, in criticizing the lengthening of US terms from life+50 to life+70 (or 75 to 95 / 100 to 120, depending on other factors), Justice Breyer pointed out that the economic value of those extra 20 years to authors was on average 5 cents.

    Copyright for long spans of time is really only useful for making authors that are likely already rich even richer. Their families -- if they have any -- are already well taken care of. The authors that are worried about their families are not going to be helped by this.
  • by identity0 ( 77976 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @09:42PM (#12298717) Journal
    If you actually locked up every college kid who ever smoked pot or drank underage, you would destroy the educated classes of this country. Hell, we wouldn't have our two recent presidents if they'd been caught.

    But that didn't stop your morality police from passing those laws, did it?

    These laws, like the drug laws will be selectively enforced and there will be an out for anyone who can afford a good lawyer.

    As a geek, it frightens me that the "war on pirates" seems set to be the next "war on drugs", along with the "war on terror".
  • by Bananas ( 156733 ) on Wednesday April 20, 2005 @10:01PM (#12298848) Homepage
    First, before anything else, I'm going to get this off my chest - The United States of America is slowly becoming a facist state controlled by the dictates of large business interests (which in some cases, is the same as the business owner), with political parties merely providing the illusion of a semi-functional democracy. You can flame, rant, throw a tantrum, turn blue in the face, etc. but it doesn't change the recorded facts about what has been happening inside the country for the last twenty years (yes, it's been that long). Which leads to my next interjection - that this is one of those recorded occasions where facist political power is being solidified. I think that people will be hard-pressed to argue against this point given the situation described and the intended consiquences mentioned below...

    The objective here is to have a chilling effect on Internet communcations by the suppression of filesharing. Which is scarier to most people - the "3 years and a fine" part (which has never stopped people in the past) or the "may potentially be sharing" part, which has been left intentionally vague for this purpose?

    As a side-effect, did anyone bother to notice that this will stifle dissenting opinions, by the very nature that you may or may not be arrested for media that "could be copyrighted", and therefore, subject you to anal probes of the non-UFO kind? Are you willing to take the chance, to put up an MP3 recording of a dissenting opinion and hope that you're not arrested, hauled off, and found innocent later, all because "it's an MP3! S/he's pirate scum! Arrest that person now!"? Hell, given the powers of PATRIOT and it's spawn, PATRIOT II, you could be considered a terrorist...which means no lawyer, indefinite detainment, torture as needed, no public notification of your detainment, etc.

    Seriously, this is all about power and control of language. Orwell was right...by narrowing the discourse of discussion, one can effectively limit or stop altogether any dissenting opinion from being heard. I fully expect that arguements to the contrary will use similar tactics, i.e. I don't believe that it exists, therefore, it doesn't, despite evidence to the contrary (a popular method with the "right", and the "left" is fast learning this as well). I'm suprised as to how many people have no clue as to what happened in Germany in the mid-1930's, and how a certain despot came to power...people that I talk to (carefully, of course) seem to think that:

    It can't happen here. This is the US, and by virtue alone of it being the US, it is an impossibility.

    Rebuttal: this is a form of blind patriotism. It's fairly obvious to anyone of mediocre intelligence that there is no logic or proof to support this statement.

    It can't happen here. This happens only in bad places, and this is a good place, so it's not possible.

    Rebuttal: this is a variant of the above, but along a different line, one of social indoctrination. You've been told this from an early age, for most of your younger life, and were told to believe it or else you would fail your schooling...you'll be branded socially as "stupid", "class fool", "outcast"...but what does schooling/peer pressure have to do with this, if not for the sole purpose of ensuring a conforming view?

    It can't happen here. There are laws and constitutional rights to protect people from this kind of treatment.

    Rebuttal: most of those laws and rights now have very large loopholes, courtesy of the US PATRIOT act. Go read up. BTW, I fully expect the elimination of 3 of our constitutional rights within the next 10 years through carefully planned and worded ammendments...we repealed prohibition because of "popular demand", so what's to stop our congresscritters from doing the same when there's a horrible horrible terrorist attack of some sort, contrieved for the sole purpose of panicing the public [wikipedia.org] and herding...er, guidin

  • by MarsF ( 631122 ) on Friday April 22, 2005 @01:01PM (#12314593)

    I have an argument or two to contribute

    So my answer to the question of whether society wants DVD region coding, a monopolistic Microsoft, and sweatshop labor would be a resounding yes. If social consensus was against such actions, then there would be no way that a corporation embracing such acts could survive.

    I don't believe that this argument takes into account corporations supporting corporations. Arguably the corporations doing the most evil are either supported by a monopoly (SBC) or supported by having aggregated a number of corporations under them (Nestle), thus shielding them from negative public reaction to their actions. In the case of Nestle, one may boycott the parent company, but to have any visible effect on their cash-flow one must boycott dozens upon dozens of other brands and companies that Nestle owns. This is a huge undertaking for the consumer and, if the company's holdings or corportate clients are diverse enough, it may even prove impossible; in dealing with other companies they will be indirectly dealing with Nestle.

    Its much like Wal-Mart. People can complain all they want about Wal-Mart killing off local competition but until they put their money where their mouth is (and I mean collectively, not just a few anti-Wal-Mart groups) then Wal-Mart is (in effect) operating under society's demands, doing precisely what society says it should do.

    Agreed. There must be public consensus and a wish to punish a corporation before one can even begin to consider the problem I stated above.

    Thanks for sparking a genuinely interesting debate.

"Ninety percent of baseball is half mental." -- Yogi Berra

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