Toshiba Demonstrates Cell Microprocessor 168
Cybro writes "Toshiba has demonstrated some cool applications for the Cell Microprocessor. They also revealed that they have written their own OS for the new processor. However the article on TechOn does not reveal the license of the OS."
what does it do? (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:what does it do? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:what does it do? (Score:3, Funny)
The PlayStation 3 will be nothing but a DVD player capable of playing back 150 movies at the same time.
Which is kind of sad really, I would have hoped for more.
Re:what does it do? (Score:2)
This is merely a demonstration of the computing power and multithreading capacities of the CELL...
Re:what does it do? (Score:1)
Background For Those Unfamiliar With Cell (Score:5, Informative)
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-2
http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cells/Cell0.ht
One of those links is worthless. (Score:2)
Re:Background For Those Unfamiliar With Cell (Score:2)
#&*$!@ Trusted Computing crap.
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ARTICLE TEXT: (Score:5, Informative)
Apr 25, 2005 14:15
Toshiba demonstrated that its Cell microprocessor, jointly developed with the Sony Group and IBM Corp., can simultaneously decode 48 SDTV format MPEG-2 streams. At the COOL Chips VIII event held in Yokohama from April 20 to 22, 2005, the company showed a film demonstrating the decoding process.
In the film, 48 MPEG-2 streams stored on a HDD were read, decoded and projected onto a 1,920 x 1,080 resolution display divided into 8 x 6 cells, each of which showed a different video in each cell. The company expects the technology to be used to display thumbnails for a video list. Of the eight synergistic processor elements (SPE) used in the Cell, six are used for decoding 48 MPEG-2 streams and one is used for scaling the screen. The remaining SPE can be used for a completely different processing function.
In the demonstration, Toshiba used an operating system environment it had developed to increase the efficiency of Cell software development. One of the environment's key features is that application software developers can program software without considering which threads will be allotted to each of the different SPEs, because the environment allows the automatically scheduling software to SPEs.
Not much info (Score:5, Insightful)
The interesting thing to me here (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The interesting thing to me here (Score:4, Informative)
This does prove though that each SPE can handle 8 MPEG-2 streams with no problem (equivalent; probably they are used in a pipeline fashion so really saying one "does" 8 streams isn't too real, but they can do 48 streams as a whole. The typical thing is one for each major step of decoding.)
Re:The interesting thing to me here (Score:4, Informative)
those "auxillary processor units" make up 75% of the die and have 95% of the computing power of cell.
Yes, but... (Score:2)
Re:Not much info (Score:5, Informative)
In normal IBBP MPEG-2, a given B-frame will reference frames either direction of it, requiring two frames be buffered in memory, and a lot of moving around of data from those two frames.
Re:Not much info (Score:2)
WMP? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:WMP? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:WMP? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WMP? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:WMP? (Score:1, Informative)
It Won't Matter What OS Toshiba's Using... (Score:1)
Re:WMP? (Score:1)
Re:WMP? (Score:3, Funny)
This isn't that uncommon, in order to hide the fact that the ball of "wire-spaghetti" sitting on the bench below the monitor is the prototype system. It might also hide the liquid nitrogen pump they were using to cool it...
In other words, they wanted to hide something
I am still (Score:5, Interesting)
Or is the Cell OS Toshiba's using here non-multitasking or cooperative multitasking? Or what?
Re:I am still (Score:5, Interesting)
It probably is a combination of the method you describe (where a SPE is dedicated to a thread) and traditional pre-emptive... And it probably boils down to the more processor-intensive threads get their own SPE, while a couple SPEs are dedicated to context-switching threads.
To me, that part is not as baffling as how programs are going to be written in the first place. A thread will have to communicate all the memory accesses it will need to make to prefetch all that data. On the PS2, we use environments like this, where that memory would be double- or triple-buffered so we can simultaneously stream, process, and write-back... but that's hand-written individually for the hardest-core processing pieces, where memory accesses are predictable and sequential. How to do this in a general way to make the process easier on application developers?
That's never really been a concern for Sony...
Re:I am still (Score:3, Informative)
Each SPE can only run one thread.
The POWER core _can_ run two threads, but it is recommended to only run one.
Re:I am still (Score:2)
Re:I am still (Score:2)
I think. I could be very wrong on it though.
Maybe (Score:5, Informative)
http://pcweb.mycom.co.jp/photo/articles/2005/04/2
I can see obvious schemes (Score:2)
I'm sure you could architect more sophisticated schemes that allows the OS to more transparently allocate processes to SPEs.
I would probably use the PowerPC chip for low-impact background threads and general application use that doesn't push the pro
Re:I am still (Score:2)
Chris
Re:I am still (Score:1)
Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, I wasn't there, nor was the article really in depth by any means, but it would seem to me that this was nothing more than a movie demonstration and nothing live.
I'm not quite so impressed. Maybe we should start linking to real content from the front page (i.e. in-depth accounts and not some blogger's one page summary with a blurry photo of a movie file being played on a projection screen).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
perhaps more interesting (Score:5, Informative)
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/2005
Re:perhaps more interesting (Score:2, Interesting)
Q: Cell has 8 embedded "SPE" CPU cores. What is the basis for this number?
A: Because it's a power of two, that's all there is to it. It's an aesthetic. In the world of computers, the power of two is the fundamental principle - there's no other way. Actually, in the course of development, there's this one occasion when we had an all-night, intense discussion in a U.S. hotel. The IBM team proposed to make it six. But my an
Interesting but no mention of Transputer (Score:1, Offtopic)
Of course, in such a brief summary you can't expect much detail, but the point about the Transputer was that it's the only relevant precursor to the Cell that has made it to market in a substantial way (there was a whole Transputer industry very active for most of a decade). Arbitrary-sized networks of small communicating har
Additional reading: Info on transputers (Score:3, Interesting)
You really shouldn't comment on things you don't know anything about.
Here is some info on the transputer family, and links to data sheets on devices in each of the four main families. The T212, T414, and T805 became the most popular. And yes, they're all microprocessors, ie. a little integrated circuit CPU which you plug into a motherboard just like you do a Pentium, and with all the normal features of a normal microprocessor plus a few others of their own, like
Mebbe it can power (Score:4, Funny)
http://www.lod.org/Projects/Other//index.htm [lod.org]
That Cell microprocessor is pretty good... (Score:5, Funny)
^_^
Re:That Cell microprocessor is pretty good... (Score:1)
The smartest money's on the Gohan processor; Cell killed Goku.
Re:That Cell microprocessor is pretty good... (Score:1)
Re:That Cell microprocessor is pretty good... (Score:2)
Also, the entire japanese defense
Re:That Cell microprocessor is pretty good... (Score:2)
This is ironic, as the SSJ technology was originally added to the Gokuu processor line in order to correct a previous overheating problem: the Kaioken clock-multiplier tended to overload the processor and sometimes cause severe damage.
The best approach is probably to run a dual system, perhaps with a Bejita coprocessor for best results. Make sure they're both running at the same SSJ multiplier level, though, else they won't synchronise
Business Idea (Score:4, Insightful)
The CELL processor is cool and the geeks love it and it is based on the POWER architecture. Surely, it'll run Linux.
Build a machine with the CELL. Don't follow any standards (well, use PCI and PCI express Serial ATA and USB 2.0 and stuff like that). But just make sure that you are first out the door with a box.
And make it cheap. It must be possible to make it cheap since it will be sold in the PS3.
I bet that there'll be a lot of enthusiasts that will buy it and be early adopters which will help you work out the bugs.
And then, a year after your first release you'll have a computer that is very fast for its price and a system which is source code compatible with the largest source code library in the world.
Well, I know I'd consider buying one.
Re:Business Idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Nope you will have to develop a chipset for it and that is not cheap. It is unlikely that Sony will hand over the supporting chipset for the PS3 to anyone. Cheap comes from big numbers and there is no such thing as a lot of enthusiast. At least when we are talking about the number it would take to make this cheap.
The only two I can see doing this are IBM and Apple.
A Cell based Mac mini as the ultimate gaming platform would be interesting. I could see this as part of IBMs plan of world domination. They dump the Intel line on china and then push for the Power/CELL to replace it. A Cell based workstation running Linux or even Windows talking to a Cell/Power based server. All with IBMs blessing. IBM goes back to being the master of it's own destiny with no real need to make nice with Microsoft or Intel.
Re:Business Idea (Score:2)
Man could you imagine Micheal Dell's face when his competition is produce 10times the computer for the same price.
Damn that would be funny.
Re:Business Idea (Score:2)
Re:Business Idea (Score:2)
Re:Business Idea (Score:2)
Why should "they" Sony do that? Gaming consols do not make money. It is the games that make money so Sony will want to control the development market. They will not want just anyone writing games and software for the PS3. Look at the Linux kit for the PS2. You could only run the programs you developed on it on other PS2s running the Linux kit.
One of the smart things a
Re:Business Idea (Score:2)
encouraging more people to develop games right up to the point they have to be approved for distribution is entirely in their interest.
Re:Business Idea (Score:2)
Re:Business Idea (Score:2)
Re:Business Idea (Score:2)
And umm... I'm delusional.
Sorry. I didn't know about the CELL workstation. Thanks for the info. Interesting.
Re:Business Idea (Score:2)
None of this, of course, stops another company from marketing their own.
...Wow. (Score:1)
Re:...Wow. (Score:1)
What are you expecting? It's a processor, not a car... you're not really going to see it "move" while it's working...
I kid because I love...
The Perfect OS for the Cell Processor (Score:5, Interesting)
The COSA Operatin System [adelphia.net]
See also the link below.
Re:The Perfect OS for the Cell Processor (Score:2)
RTFA please: (to those talking about Windows, WMP) (Score:4, Informative)
In the film, 48 MPEG-2 streams stored on a HDD were read, decoded and projected onto a 1,920 x 1,080 resolution display divided into 8 x 6 cells, each of which showed a different video in each cell. The company expects the technology
If you bothered to read the article contents, you'll see that they simply showed a video of the process actually working.
This is a far cry from a live tech demo, but if they can really pull it off, definitely shows the power of a Cell.
Re:RTFA please: (to those talking about Windows, W (Score:2)
Sorry, but so many people have been able to dupe the public with demos (nevermind movies of demos) that we shouldn't even bother to put this stuff on the main page.
Anyone remember the tiny helicopter robot or the guy that claimed blazing speeds over analog modems?
Re:RTFA please: (to those talking about Windows, W (Score:1)
That would be impressive.
Re:RTFA please: (to those talking about Windows, W (Score:2)
Maybe ToshibaTVs can do 720P correctly with this. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Maybe ToshibaTVs can do 720P correctly with thi (Score:2)
I'm sure a set top box vendor loves the idea of a chip that can decode compressed video, process it, and run a Java applet in the same piece of silicon.
Threads and units (Score:4, Insightful)
Now *THIS* is the interesting part on their OS. Because the SPEs have different kinds. When I looked at the cell architecture, I thought: "Programming for this thing is going to be a MAJOR MESS!"
Thumbs up for Toshiba on figuring this out AND doing something about it.
OS for Cell and Cell Application (Score:5, Informative)
ZDNet Article on Cell [zdnet.com]
The article is dated in some ways (like when it says 16 cores...I believe it is half that right?) but it does point out some interesting things, for example, like the fact that there will be a Cell SDK and a end-user OS aimed at embedded devices and the like.
If you google around for 'cell forums' you will come across interesting discussions where they point out that linux will be ported very quickly to cell and that IBM has hinted at possible uses for Cell as a workstation. Also, Cell is OS NEUTRAL meaning that it does not have any particular hardware functionality that makes one OS run any faster.
Overall, I would say that since market penetration is needed, you can't just say "Here is our OS and our SDK, use it from now on". The trick will be of course, to assuage the existing target audience who use today's OS's.
Also, note that the Cell is not a processor bred entirely for the PS3 or anything like that - it will be embedded in devices such as PVR's, TV's, music players, and in all likelyhood, it will even find its way to the desktop - with its potential it is likely to also find some niche in supercomputing since it will be cheap (if 4 whole cells can be thrown into a game console why not?)
Re:OS for Cell and Cell Application (Score:2)
But what's more important, from what I gather, is that the cell architecture is very scalable. That means you could take your PVR, music player, toaster or whatever, connect it to your PS3 and gain more power.
A new game needs more power? Sony/Microsoft sell a Cell extension pack. Profit!! But also not needing to buy a completely new system for more power.
Re:OS for Cell and Cell Application (Score:1)
The XBOX 360 will definitely not be using the Cell...it has been known for some time now that it will be using PowerPC-architecture based processors. You probably confused this with the fact that the Cell's main core (which 'directs' the other SPE's) is thought to be using a PowerPC architecture also, though this hasn't been confirmed I think...check the ARS article for more info.
Re:OS for Cell and Cell Application (Score:2)
Still interesting both consoles will be based around a PPC, either directly or using CELL.
Re:OS for Cell and Cell Application (Score:2)
Hopefully, they'll (IBM probably) develop some compilers for it (C, Fortran at least) so the scientific community can take advantage of the Cells.
Cell for use in HD (Score:2)
Probably not an "OS" in the common sense (Score:4, Interesting)
It's worth bearing in mind this is unlikely to be an OS in the common sense. I'd rate it very unlikely that this OS supports such niceties as filesystems, network IO stacks, protected processes, etc - or that it ever will.
Rather, it's likely to be a shim (albeit a clever one) for insulating the developers of embedded-style applications from the real hardware. I wouldn't be surprised if this Toshiba OS is actually a "library operating system" which is linked into the application itself.
Don't think of it as an OS in the Linux sense, more as a toolkit / library for Cell programmers. Exactly how a "conventional" OS will run on the Cell is not clear to me but it seems certain that it can support a Linux-style OS well - otherwise it'd scupper Cell's World Domination plans
Re:Probably not an "OS" in the common sense (Score:2)
License Doesn't Matter . . . (Score:1, Interesting)
Seriously, Cell Processors provide a great platform for Linux to compete head-to-head with Microsoft, and to introduce people to the world of the GPL and open-source software.
Microsoft is inevitably going to release a version of Windows for the Cell Processors--they'd be stupid not to do so. However, Microsoft has its main marketing focus on Longhorn right now. The public has no idea what these Cell Processors are, a
Re:License Doesn't Matter . . . (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:License Doesn't Matter . . . (Score:2)
Shit... now we will have to make Longhorn Cell compatible... ok lets postpone the release date again... 2008 sounds good??
Remember, we will postpone release date in order to make the system more secure!
Re:License Doesn't Matter . . . (Score:2)
Regardless of the fact that the NT kernel runs on PowerPC (XBox360), this is a long way from releasing an OS for the Cell. Given the endless delays in Longhorn and WinFS, I doubt they can do it in time to be competitive.
Re:License Doesn't Matter . . . (Score:2)
Re:License Doesn't Matter . . . (Score:2)
License is FCL (Score:1)
It uses the FCL.
The Fight Club License.
First Rule of the FCL:
Better than the FLCL (Score:1)
You'd NEVER make heads or tails of it.
Related links on the Cool Chips VIII (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.coolchips.org/ [coolchips.org]
Another report for the conference (in Japanese, with pics)
http://pcweb.mycom.co.jp/articles/2005/04/28/cool
http://pcweb.mycom.co.jp/articles/2005/04/28/cool
Yeah, but how does it do with video games (Score:1)
1. Will Video Games be able to take advantage of this (PS3)
2. I know multithreading opens a huge bag of worms in programming (Race Conditions, concurrency, deadlock, etc.). So, How hard will it be to develop i.e. will the SDK's be any good.
This could be the most powerful system on earth, but if the game devlopers cant code against it, then whats the point?
PS3 SDK? (Score:3, Informative)
In many respects, the Saturn failed because the SDK was just too hard to work with, as did the N64 (although that also had the cartridge limitation to further pull it down).
Given that it seems like the PS3 will surely trounce the Xbox360 in HW capabilities, I wonder whether ease of development will have the final say on who has the better gaming platform.
Re:PS3 SDK? (Score:2)
BeOS did this years ago (Score:1)
Microsoft responded (Score:2, Funny)
There is no license. (Score:3, Insightful)
So when can we start buying them? (Score:3, Insightful)
Lets see some silicon!
You've gotta be joking.. (Score:2, Funny)
I refuse to use some old buzzword from the 90s' megacorporations to describe my computer hardware. Forget about it.
Embarrassingly parallel tasks? (Score:3, Insightful)
However, the really interesting problems are the ones that don't scale linearly in performance with the number of processors - these are the tasks for which the Cell processor will probably be running with 7 idle units and 1 active. These are also the tasks where we need actually new architectures; supercomputers like BlueGene will tear their way through extremely parallel problems.
One very cool approach to handling less parallel workloads (or even "sequential" workloads - like the majority of programs people usually run on PCs) is speculative threading - taking a sequential program, breaking it up into chunks, and running those chunks in parallel. Of course, when you do this, you have to make sure that the later work doesn't depend on the earlier operations, and check for violations of "sequential execution semantics" (programs expecting sequential execution semantics are ones that expect their instructions to execute in order - basically any program you'd write today). The Stanford Hydra [stanford.edu] project is an example that uses this technique; Wisconsin Multiscalar Group [wisc.edu] takes an approach that requires modified binaries to do something similar.
One thing people fail to mention when they talk about the supposedly-amazing performance of the Cell processor is its floating point precision: first, it only attains it's >200GFLOPS with single precision numbers (not accurate enough for many scientific applications), and second, it doesn't follow IEEE754 rounding requirements. The rounding policy in IEEE754 floats is specifically designed so that as you perform more and more calculations, the error doesn't grow rapidly. Cutting corners lets you calculate faster but even less accurate numbers. Basically, to get the high FLOPS ratings, Cell sacrifices precision in both the number of bits used, and the accuracy of the data in those bits.
Re:Embarrassingly parallel tasks? (Score:2)
Re:Cell runs XP? (Score:2)
Re:Thats Windows OS WMP (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:Thats Windows OS WMP (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:From the screenshot in the article ... (Score:1)
Re:This is WAY cool (Score:3, Informative)
Much like theTAOS OS [byte.com] did.