Gates on Google 755
EnsignExtra writes " A long and interesting article in Fortune on the battle between Gates and Google. 'Forced to watch Google's stock soar the way Microsoft's used to, and Brin and Page enjoy their roles as tech's new rock stars, Gates brings to the fight a ferocity that nobody has seen since the Netscape war a decade ago. Their popularity gets under his skin. "There's companies that are just so cool that you just can't even deal with it," he says sarcastically, suggesting that Google is nothing more than the latest fad, adding, "At least they know to wear black."...Trying to build a Google killer, however, has turned out to be truly humbling for Microsoft.'"
GOffice? (Score:5, Interesting)
Next, they'll come out with a GBrowser and add extra functionality for their new line of star studded packages in your Google account if you use their browser. Maybe that's why they've taken a bunch of Firefox developers...but who knows?
The best Google Ad Ever! (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm amazed... (Score:1, Interesting)
WTF with Google anyway? (Score:2, Interesting)
Besides, Google is returning results for pages that are OVER A YEAR OLD when I Yahoo! regularly picking up changes no more than two weeks old.
different league (Score:3, Interesting)
typical Microsoft (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, a great deal of luck and a huge war chest is also part of it: Microsoft got away with that sort of behavior for about a decade because they set the standards and because they could pump money into failing projects for as long as it took. It didn't matter whether Windows reinvented the wheel, because Microsoft made all the cars and because Microsoft could outspend everybody else until they got it right.
Will it work again? Perhaps, perhaps not. Microsoft can try to push their search product to market late in the game, with enormous effort and an enormous investment. But that alone isn't enough to unseat Google; they would have to leverage their Windows near-monopoly, but in a way that doesn't attract the attention of regulatory agencies around the world. Good luck.
Re:WTF with Google anyway? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Innovate, not copy (Score:2, Interesting)
Personally, I don't really have a problem with Microsoft (or any other company) copying as long as they do it well and add a few new features or a bit of additional polish to the mix.
There seems to be this Slashdot-think that companies should always come up with radical innovations. Even Google hasn't, after all, plenty of companies were doing searching, web-mail and news browsing way before them. They just took an idea, added a few new features and a bit of polish.
As for Microsoft, without sounding like zealot either way, everything they've tried outside of Windows has been a humbling experience but they are persistant. Last time I looked their PDA/Smartphone line is looking strong and their media centre isn't bad at all. The problems they've had with the XBox come down to the radically different style of market - you can't just throw out incremental OS releases on a month by month basis.
As I wrote previously, having suffered the painful experience that is the Sony Ericsson P910, I am actually looking forward to going back to the HTC Magician [mobile-review.com]. Thats not to say that WinCE is heaven, far from it, but it has come on in leaps and bounds.
Re:Obvious (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:GOffice? (Score:5, Interesting)
I guess this might be reallity in a few years. The challenge for google would be to switch the corporate marked, not the private market. But microsoft get most money from the corporate market in the office-land. So, if every single person switched to openoffice, while corporates stuck with office, it'd be relatively harmless to microsoft. But imagine if google comes with Glinux! That'd be very interesting, and as connections is getting faster, they might even run it as thin terminals. Google has the infrastructure for running a few million thin clients...
Re:GOffice? (Score:5, Interesting)
Gates has always insisted that his company could cease to be viable in a span of as little as 5 years, given the IBM PC experience (but at least IBM even in the 1980s was much more diversified). With a 3-5 year refresh cycle for desktop PCs this makes Microsoft even more vulnerable than IBM was.
If Google has the 'cool' factor and all of the sudden people start demanding Google desktops like they're demanding iPods, I can see a sudden shift. Unlikely, but possible.
Re:Are they completely out of touch? (Score:1, Interesting)
The claim that Microsoft cannot produce good, innovative software is completely bogus, in my opinion - the fact is, that they usually don't bother as it is more cost-effective to just coast along (as people will lap up whatever crud they turn out). When they start losing face to companies producing better products(google, Firefox, etc), they let loose an army of very skilled engineers to tackle the problem: remember, there is no shortage of technical talent at Microsoft - they hire only the best. It's just the management that seems to stifle them.
So I suspect that in a year or so's time, when MSN Search has been strengthened unrecognisably and IE7 is released, we will remember google and Firefox warmly, but only as temporary heroes who for a short period challenged the hated tyrant (to the cheers of the townsfolk) before being mercilessly swatted down.
Ahem.... Without MS applications? (Score:4, Interesting)
You can use Google software with any Internet browser to search the web and your desktop for just about anything; send and store up to two gigabytes of e-mail via Gmail (Hotmail, Microsoft's rival free e-mail service, offers 250 megabytes, a fraction of that); manage, edit, and send digital photographs using Google's Picasa software, easily the best PC photo software out there; and, through Google's Blogger, create, post online, and print formatted documents--all without applications from Microsoft.
Emphasis mine. Nice notion, but rather inaccurate. Google Toolbar is for Internet Explorer only. Google Desktop Search is available only for Windows XP and Windows 2000. Picasa Photo Organizer requires Internet Explorer and Windows XP or Windows 2000. Same for Google Deskbar and GMail Notifier. You can use Google's sites without applications from Microsoft, but you sure can't use any of their downloadable software without a good dose of fairly recent Microsoft product.
It's all in the culture, guys (Score:1, Interesting)
Whether Bill Gates admits it or not, it is a matter of fact that the bureaucracy that comes with size slows down innovation to a grinding halt.
I have heard (via a friend's friend whose friend has a friend...) that product groups within certain Slashdotters' Favorite Software companies (SFSCs) boast about a new product or feature being beta in August and being shipped next February while the same feature is up and running in Google. And took them 2 months or something to complete.
Unless these SFSCs change their culture they will always be outsmarted by Google. Money can go a long way, but against brains... I have my doubts.
Disclaimer: I'm not a Google-fundamentalist, but I use what's the best search engine - for now.
Bill comes off looking pretty bad in this... (Score:2, Interesting)
That is exactly the weasily, me too type of argument that shows exactly why (IMNSHO) Microsoft is often perceived as a drain on progress in the tech industry and why they aren't at all like Goggle
Innovation !== Invention (Score:3, Interesting)
I have my own personal theory that very few ideas are original. I wouldn't be surprised if collectively people all over the Earth has had every idea Google has manifested.
The importance of innovation vs invention is moot, as one is totally useless without the other.
My favourite definition of innovation (from the results returned by Google's define: operator) is "the process of adopting a new thing, idea, or behavior pattern into a culture." from the Tel el-Far-ah dictionary [cgu.edu].
Re:Maybe some truth there (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm waiting for Procter & Gamble's search engine, though. It's going to completely destroy both Google and MSN.
Google by choice,MSsearch by force (Score:3, Interesting)
It took me a while to find uninstall instructions. I knew I could have used control panel, but I was wondering how the home user with no knowledge of computers could get rid of it.
I don't know if users of XP (I use 2000) have had the same problem, but if MSSearch is automatically installed on users' computers, it may get used more by the unsuspecting and those that don't care what they use. If MS can put MSSearch on all XP computers without the users' permission, it will gain market share. This would be another similar case to the IE-Bundled to give it market share, but this time MS would be able to say the users have choices.
Re:GOffice? (Score:4, Interesting)
Microsoft Will Fail - Tales From The Inside (Score:5, Interesting)
Though he's in complete denial about his position he projet is nop nearer to rollout then a year ago. Why? Because M$ has turned from a team of highly skilled engineers to a mass of bumbleing corporate sycopnts.
The tales he tells about the project are astounding. Engineers are suin the company and being transferred about like cattle. Far, far more time is spent on interoffice politics and CYA then ever is done on engineering. Teams get reshuffled and project specs get redone. My friend had to get a lawyer just to threaten the company enough to keep his own job there and the weird thing is....the significance all this seems to be completely lost on him.
He maintains that the new search engine peoject will knock the socks off Google even and he's been maintaining this for almost a year now....with nothing real to show. Looks like the reality distortion field isn't just restricted to Jobs.
My prediction...M$ will drop this project after another year after spending dozens (hundreds) of millions on it and the let the finger pointing and firings begin! M$ no longer has what it takes to carry an innovative project to completion. They're too fat, too decadent, too full of disloyal temp workers and too busy trying to cover their own asses.
Mark my words...the M$ search engine project and it's (imho) inevitable failure will be the death knell for M$.
Tiger anyone ?
Re:The best Google Ad Ever! (Score:4, Interesting)
Not first? (Score:3, Interesting)
Excuse me.....when has Microsoft ever really gotten there first? Their signature business method is to buy some small or unknown software company in a given market and then use their monopoly influence, price undercutting, and FUD to drive out or hinder competitors while they hurry to catch up with whatever software they bought. Years later, they have little competition and a product that is "good enough" (read: Marketing has convinced enough people to buy it and put up with all the bugs that remain).
They've already bought their search [com.com] technology [nwsource.com] but apparently it's harder than it looks. Of course, they would have preferred to eliminate [guardian.co.uk] the competition outright.
The real problem here is that Microsoft can't cut their price below free and Google has at least one software generation or so head start (that, coupled with the other Microsoft bug-a-boo -- FOSS). Billy boy is never so pissed than when a company points out just how uninnovative Microsoft really is...
Their next slogan? "Microsoft -- following the leader like usual."
Re:Innovate, not copy (Score:5, Interesting)
MS's only big software innovation has been integration. They realised that people don't want programs. They want a computer. One thing that does everything in a consistent joined up manner. That _WAS_ innovation. Everyone else at the time still thought it was a _good_ thing to have lots of little programs each with it's own purpose, UI, etc tailored to a specific job.
MS realised that this was crap, and to the annoyance of software people everywhere, MS was right. Most people want to buy a word processor and a spreedsheet from different companise in the same way they want to buy their hob and their oven from different companies. Not at all.
I would also say that ASP pages were innovative - not so much the idea of templates, but the idea of creating a proper web SDK, with a cohesive set of classes. It's not rocket science, but no-one else had thought of offering a complete solution to what was _still_ being viewed as a set of separate problems - a web server, a programming language, a database API, etc. etc.
However, where MS is _really_ innovative is in marketing. They have found ways to promote and market software that no-one else has ever thought of. Now, those ways may not be 'nice' but they are certainly innovative.
"They can't understand context, for example; (Score:2, Interesting)
Was mentioned in the article as a shortcoming of search engines.
Take a look at:
chip [wikipedia.org] results on Wikipedia.
Any
Never write off Microsoft... (Score:5, Interesting)
Or, put another way, Microsoft is competing on all fronts. You can bet your bottom dollar that's the way Bill Gates sees it and that he likes it that way too.
Lest we forget, Microsoft is still making money hand over fist, and its profits continue to rise. It might have missed its last profits forecast by some fraction of a percentage point but the Microsoft vs Everyone Else battle is still pretty firmly tipped in its favour.
The company is a behemoth. Apple isn't really a threat in the short or medium term because so many computer users (especially large corporates) are tied into x86-compatible architectures. iPods might and switching might help Apple erode some of the home market, but the business market isn't going to jump onto that bandwagon so easily. Besides, we all know that Microsoft will do whatever it takes to get the deal done when faced with the possibility of losing serious business to a competitor.
Firefox isn't really much more than an annoyance, because it will never have the marketing muscle to compete with MSIE - the reason why MSIE destroyed Netscape's dominance wasn't its superiority, it was because MSIE was just there, an easy mouse click away on every new Windows 95 PC, whereas Navigator wasn't, and needed to be installed from scratch.
Xbox might not have made any money but I doubt that Microsoft was expecting to get into the console gaming market and have made a profit by now. It's not in it for the short-term, it wants to be a long-term player, and the console gaming market, just like most things, is one in which you have to speculate to accumalate. The market was Nintendo/Sega, then Sony/Nintendo/Sega, now it's Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft (or maybe Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo): who's to say in five years time that it won't be Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo?
Never write off or underestimate what lies in Redmond. Too many companies have made that mistake - even mighty IBM - and learnt not to do it the hard way.
Winning != Not Losing. (Score:3, Interesting)
But that is not the same thing as winning, at least as far as Bill is concerned. MS has only two major wins, OS and Office. Their DB offering is behind Oracle. Their online services are marginal. Media player is battling Quicktime and Real. They have not won any of those areas, though they are trying very hard. Simply having money does not guarentee a win.
In the case of Google, Google is very intrenched across the internet. They have search, they have adds, they have mindshare all over the place. That is more than product. That is content and it is wide networked support. MS can't easily overcome that even by levereging their monopoly. And most things that they might try to leverage would probably land them in anti-trust court.
Re:GOffice? (Score:5, Interesting)
Google on the other hand values my personal information. Their customers are still advertisers, but they are partnering with me and offer me value in exchange for my personal information. The offer me free services that are industry best, for the opportunity to present me advertisements. Its a win-win so long as I want to play. And since google's whole strategy is about advertising through services, there's a decent hedge against their abuse of this trust -- people stop trusting google, they lose eyeballs and thus their business strategy fails.
Also, to my knowledge, advertisements are presented at the time of information retreival...there is no master datawarehouse trying to compile the master "Ubergrendle" user profile where they can create a psychological model of my buying patterns. I'm very comfortable with a rules-engine providing me with contextually useful advertisements...its actually user friendly.
This is where Microsoft has their biggest problem -- after years of abusing EULAs, even if MS provided the EXACT SAME SERVICES and comparable technology as Google, most users wouldn't trust them based on their a) other interests, and b) previous behaviour.
Gates has shown poorly-camouflaged fear before (Score:5, Interesting)
The PR garbage flowed from him, everyone made nice, and then questions were taken from the floor. Someone asked about Linux. That was when things got surreal.
Gates made a point of screwing up the pronunciation of the name, trying to give the impression that this OS was from a foreign planet or something. Then he set about ridiculing the available apps, the ease of use, etc. He threw a handful of ill-considered (to anyone who knew anything about Linux) criticisms against the wall, hoping something would stick. He tried to make fun of the whole thing.
And he sweated bullets. Literally and figuratively.
It dawned on me at that moment that the guy was flat-out scared. He saw this THING bearing down on him and he clearly didn't have a clue how to respond. "Barely-concealed panic" is how I would characterize it. I get the feeling this Gates character really hates to not be in control and this Linux thing was giving him ulcers.
That was the ridiculing stage. The fighting stage came soon after. But that was also the moment that I realized Linux was here to stay.
Google's "help wanted" ads (Score:3, Interesting)
Ok, M$ is bad, but Google is heading the same way (Score:2, Interesting)
Thats' why many people are ready to follow anyone who tries to put up some competition to them.
In some cases, the competition has a much better product (go, Firefox!)
In some others, the competition might even be worse... or at least trying to use the same heavy handed tactics M$ has used for decades.
I'm afraid Google might fall into this second class. They have lots of very sensitive data on us: our searches, our emails, maybe we are even handling them the documents on our desktop.
All this data can be easily correlated through an immortal cookie (with an expiration date in 2038, it will definitely outlast my PC).
There is a web site keeping an eye on Google:
http://www.google-watch.org/ [google-watch.org]
While I would take anything in this site with a grain of salt, it still paints a very disturbing of Google; anyone can verify their claims, afterwards... but first of all read it!
A simple test (Score:3, Interesting)
The test is simple. Drive through the parking lots at Microsoft at, say, 9PM on Tuesday evening. Count the cars. Now do the same at Google. The difference is the competitive edge.
It used to be, back in the early-to-mid 90's, that the Microsoft parking lots were full well into the early morning. It wasn't unusual to see full lots at 3AM. Now days the lots only begin to fill at 9am, and by 5:30 they are half-empty again. By 9pm, the janitors are parking in front of the building. There is not a car in site. I suspect the Google parking lots resemble the early-90's lots at Microsoft.
The typical Microsoft rank-and-file employee simply doesn't care any more. It's a job. The employee morale at Microsoft is at an all-time low. One of the major concerns the HR-driven corporation has these days is the attrition ratio. The fear is that the new surge of startups in the Washington area will pull the best people out, leaving Microsoft with the dregs.
Re:Microsoft's Underdog (Score:2, Interesting)
Well, not necessarily. The BSDs and Linux - and more - run extremely well on the same hardware that runs Windows - modulo the odd driver, winmodems and stuff like that. And about the ladies, well, those aren't ladies in my book.
In summation.. (Score:2, Interesting)
It looks like Billy's in the stage between "laughing" and "fighting."
Move toward the light (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Maybe some truth there (Score:2, Interesting)
Windows and Office are not subsidizing everything at MS. Exchange Server and SQL Server are certainly cash cows for Microsoft. They probably make more money with those two products than all revenues from all commercial Linux companies combined.
MySQL and PostgreSQL don't really compete with MS SQL (or Oracle or DB2) on features, ease-of-maintenance, scalability, or mind-share yet. And there's nothing in the open-source world that compares with Exchange (or Notes/Domino/WebSphere Portal) in terms of functionality and integration.
When/if the open-source world produces real competitors to Exchange and SQL Server, MS will really start to get scared. Ceeding a small portion of the file/print/web server space to Linux hasn't really made and impact in teh Redmond bottom line. But an "install and go" open-source alternative to MS SQL or Exchange would really hurt, since it would eliminate not only Exchange/SQL revenues, but a bunch of Windows Server revenues as well.
Finally, an open-source alternative with a robust desktop-management solution like Active Directory's Group Policy would make Linux servers a real choice for organizations. Right now, we control so much of our network through group policy (configuration, software installation, etc.) that switching to Linux servers without that functionality is a complete non-starter. Hacking a bunch of scripts together to configure machines and applications is not a cost-effective desktop managment strategy when compared to managing Windows Servers and desktops with Group Policy.
Maybe this is sour grapes (Score:5, Interesting)
I look around at guys who are making a lot more dough, and I think to myself, they aren't any smarter than me; usually they're less smart. I'm just not willing to do what they did: primarily spend a lot of their time and energy thinking about how to make more money. I'd rather do something beautiful, or fascinating, and to work with people I really like being around. The rich aren't like you and me -- and the difference isn't just money.
Bill Gates is a the example of this in the extreme. I deeply respect his philanthropic work. But there is something to his outsized competitiveness that I find disturbing. It's almost as if somebody else's success amounts to a personal failure to him, and that positive attention to others is a personal affront to him. Of course, it's this competitiveness that enables him to do the fantastic philanthropic work he does, but it strikes me as almost, well, insecure and a little sad.
As an ordinary person when I look at Sergei and Larry of Google fame being successful, I'm delighted that a couple of nice guys are getting positive attention for being smart and decent. I'm not sure this is a feeling Mr. Gates can ever share.
Some psychologists are now suggesting that people have a kind of "set-point" for happiness; a level they happen to gravitate towards despite things that happen in their lives. Success can make them more happy briefly, but they tend to return to their baseline. So, I suppose if I ever do decide to put my mind to making serious money, I'll still be as happy as I am today. But I doubt I ever will get a chance to put this to the test.
Re:Gates has shown poorly-camouflaged fear before (Score:2, Interesting)
What was really surreal was soon after the initial Q&A, Gates began to visibly crack under pressure. Pools of sweat stained his underarms and chest. His hair was plastered to his pasty forehead. Gates began pacing back and forth on the stage, screaming, "Linux! Linux! Linux!" over and over again.
Steve Ballmer had to quickly run on stage and lead Bill to the back. He then attempted to crack a few jokes to help relieve the tension in the building, but it wasn't happening.
That seemed so long ago. Funny thing, though. I can't seem to locate any of my college friends who had went with me that night. Not a single one.
Are we the only two left, Ben? What's happening$^@##%%^CARRIER LOST
Re:Microsoft's Customers (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I don't get it (Score:2, Interesting)
I don't buy this, a browser on a machine with no OS
No, not without an OS, but the browser and the OS would stop mattering - as long as it can do Google, it can do anything you want. MS would have a hard time charging as much as they do for Windows if all it is used for is launching a browser.I'd disagree (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem isn't too many fronts. The problem is that other businesses have caught onto Microsoft's previously deceptively brilliant business strategy. Microsoft has never innovated products, they've always been a business strategest company. When they can't outthink their competitors at a higher, business level, their products lag behind. The only thing new here is that Microsoft hasn't figured out a way to kill its competition through non-competitive means. That doesn't mean they won't, however.
Re:Gates has shown poorly-camouflaged fear before (Score:1, Interesting)
Until the linux community smartens up and realizes that in order to make linux successful as a desktop alternative, they have to ask their parents & grandparents for opinions, linux will never be a serious threat to Windows.
It's cool that I have x number of ways to get a CLI in linux. It's cool that I see all the code and debugging info I could ever want in linux, but it's all Greek to my mom and everybody else she knows. Why would they use linux when everything is so foreign, different and harder to understand/use/adapt to, when they have Windows which is for the most part common english (or whatever language you prefer).
And while we're on the topic of innovation... linux... innovation... used in the same sentence? What has linux done that my mom would be interested in? What has linux done that any common user would be interested in? Linux developers are too busy chasing what has already been done, where's the new stuff that is going to make people want to change?
I know this will come up as well... security, spyware, virus's, etc... I have a router, I have anti virus, I have anti spyware, I have a couple of popup blockers (built in IE and Google Toolbar). My computer is always on, always connected to the internet. I have not seen a virus infection, I have not seen a spy/mal/ad ware installation, I _very rarely_ ever see a popup on my computer, and this has been for months if not years (nor has any of my family). It took me about an hour to install the AV, AntiSpyware & Google Toolbar and I have surfed daily without a problem for a long long time...
Anyhow... Linux really isn't a threat until the developers come up with something new... like Google is doing...
Actually, Microsoft is now paying for its (Score:5, Interesting)
There are almost no designers of PC chassis left. The differentiation comes with 'plastic panels' on the same box. Regardless of which panels you might buy, you're still stuck with the box underneath it all.
The Mac design team __designed__ the new iBook, PowerBook, PowerMac, eMac, MacMini and iMac to look, feel, work and be disctinctive.
In the case of the last two, the MacMini is arguably the smallest form factor white the latest iMac has suceeed in making the computer disappear entirely.
Gates will never be able to do that because of his success. There's NOBODY left who can do that kind of innovative design. He stuck with the same chassis with different coloured plastic panels stuck to them.
Re:Maybe this is sour grapes (Score:5, Interesting)
He'd do this to WHOMEVER was the hot new thing. He really got off on it. It wasn't just a fuel to win, a competitive drive, it was vindictive and it was personal. Michael's trash talk was considered some of the most mean spirited talk in the league for many years. He'd talk about your mother. He made it personal.
I think for some guys, the Gordon Gekko Sun Tsu thing is just there. Business is war. You msut hear the lamantations of their women. Ellison at Oracle is like that. He launched a smear campaign aginst the Peoplesoft execs that were holding out on him, he wiped them out.
FOr Gates, it's weird. He knows most people hate him. He has a huge, very generous and very well directed foundation that does a ton for AIDS in developing nations, but it seems to buy him no PR. He has no personal charm or charisma at all. He's petulant and vindictive by all accounts. Everybody would like to see the guy get his. Even customers.
I'm trying to think of another historical figure in the United States history who was that powerful, that philanthropic, and yet that reviled. Andrew Carnegie maybe.
Re:.NET (Score:2, Interesting)
(*) I quoted new because none of this stuff is really all the new when you look at what LISP has been capable of all this time.
C# will be much more interesting once Mono takes off. An equivalent of Eclipse for Mono will be what makes the difference. It will be the open source tools that will make it a powerful and productivity environment to work in (kinda like what happened with Java), and not Microsoft's half-assed offerings.
(I am speaking here from the perspective of someone who develops in both Java and C#)
Microsofties like Sergey and hate Bill 'n' Steve (Score:3, Interesting)
The real Microsoft hackers, in their hearts, really like Sergey and his attitude much better than they like Gates and Ballmer.
Before Google, I guess they sold out to the Dark Side because they thought 'OK, in order to pay for my hard core hacking, I guess the sales part of the company has to be Evil. Since it pays for my check and stock options, I'll deal with it."
But Google isn't. They're not Doing Evil: they're Doing Cool. Getting a job at google must feel like cleanliness and liberation.
The MS hackers are tired of expending all their energy making non-innovative products merely to Protect The Empire:
Xbox versus PS2
Longhorn versus OSX
MS Search versus Google
They don't want to be the last ones protecting a giant EDS.
For all Bill's BS about Research and Innovation, they really haven't done squat, and the employees are sick of it.