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KDE GUI Businesses Apple

Apple to Adopt KDE4's KDOM and KSVG2? 83

Posted by timothy from the adopt-or-die dept.
Anonymous Coward writes "According to Eric Seidel, Apple WebCore developer, Safari may soon have 'experimental SVG support.' He ported KDE's new DOM architecture KDOM as well as their Scaleable Vector Graphics (SVG) implementation KSVG2 and render tree library KCanvas to WebCore. A new section devoted to SVG is also up on the WebCore site. Does this all mean that SVG will now go mainstream, finally?"
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Apple to Adopt KDE4's KDOM and KSVG2? More

Apple to Adopt KDE4's KDOM and KSVG2?

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  • Although not the first time, this shows the value of some open source projects. A comercial company now able to take the expertise and 'products' from the open source world and use them for innovation.
    • Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you intend, but that is really quite insulting to open source developers.

      You are basically saying that open source is only of value when commercialized, and the fact that the KDE project created the implemenations of public standards isn't innovation, but a port of that software to a commercial platform is.

      I wouldn't say that these frameworks are or are not innovative. But I don't think that the KDE project needs Apple in order to give it value.
    • take the expertise and 'products' from the open source world and use them for innovation.

      How can it be innovation to copy someones sourcecode?
    • If anything is going to really push SVG, it is Adobe buying Macromedia, although it being adopted in to the XML RSS world in a face of crap Flash interfaces doesn;t hurt.

  • But Safari already supports SVG (Score:4, Informative)

    by chibimagic ( 157104 ) on Sunday July 10, 2005 @04:09PM (#13027915)
    On thefacebook.com, "visualize my friends" creates an svg file that shows all the connections between your friends, and Safari displays it just fine.

  • 3 Apple (Score:2, Insightful)

    by white1827 ( 848173 )
    Many technologies first adopted by Apple become standards. Lets hope they can help SVG catch on. By catch on I mean native browser support, not the awful Adobe plugin.

    • First adopted by Apple? (Score:3, Informative)

      by hritcu ( 871613 )
      ... I tought that the K in KSVG2 was from KDE, and KDE comes with Linux, BSD and many other Unices ( http://www.kde.org/download/distributions.php [kde.org]).

      Then I thought that the Adobe SVG Viewer is available for Windows platforms for a couple of years now - and while you consider it awful, it is the most compliant SVG viewer I have ever tried.

      Then there is Firefox 1.1 and the beautiful (because of JavaScript) support for SVG in Dear Park Alpha.

      So no, SVG was probably not "first addopted" by Apple, but yes th

  • mistakes in news item (Score:5, Informative)

    by Rob Buis ( 898732 ) on Sunday July 10, 2005 @04:32PM (#13028041)
    The news is ofcourse great. The quality
    of the news item is not. The correct KDOM
    link is:

    http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/kdenonbeta/kdom/ [kde.org]

    Also Eric is *not* part of the Safari team,
    though he works with them often.
    Cheers,

    Rob.
  • Does this all mean that SVG will now go mainstream, finally?

    No. Because it's Apple. If it's on Microsoft, then it's mainstream.

    And don't you Apple fans flame me. I'm as die-hard an Apple aopologist as the next fanboi (two laptops, four iPods, and two Airports), but the fact remains that with the exception of iPods and iTunes, Apple isn't exactly mainstream. And I like it that way.
    • I disagree. As a computer company, Apple may not be very mainstream, but they do make computers and they are quite profittable. Many people also own Macs or have used them before in some capacity, and that's more than can be said for any other operating system except for Windows of course (remember, Macs are *everywhere*; schools, public libraries, professional art galleries I've been in have them).

      As a music content delivering company, however, they're the mainstream. iPods outnumber most any other MP3 p
      • So... you start out by saying you disagree with me, and then go to great lengths to prove my point? I don't understand.

        I disagree. As a computer company, Apple may not be very mainstream

        So, you disagree, and then state the same thing that I said -- Apple is not mainstream. Make up your mind.

        As a music content delivering company, however, they're the mainstream.

        Exactly the point that I made. Did you miss it when I wrote, "with the exception of iPods and iTunes?"

        Once a company has hit the

    • Re:It's Apple. It's not mainstream. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by node 3 ( 115640 ) on Sunday July 10, 2005 @05:32PM (#13028345)
      No. Because it's Apple. If it's on Microsoft, then it's mainstream.

      The question wasn't "is SVG now mainstream", but "will SVG go mainstream". Technologies adopted by Apple tend to go mainstream, so it's a valid question, and one you didn't address.

      Your response isn't very insightful, either.

      SVG already *is* "on Microsoft". And on Apple, too. You just have to install a plug-in (just like Java and Real and other "mainstream" features).

      Mainstream doesn't mean "on Microsoft", it just means it's common enough--that it's reached some threshold of popularity. SVG is "on Microsoft" right now, but it's not mainstream. If Mac users get good SVG support in Safari and web sites start to offer SVG content in greater numbers, SVG will be mainstream. Windows users will, as usual, just have to click the "get plugin" button--they're used to it.

      Now that Apple is going to include native SVG support with Safari (assuming this comes to pass), the odds of SVG going mainstream really have increased tremendously.
      • I disagree--I think the GP got it right. If MS doesn't support it natively, it is not mainstream. Period. It may suck hard, but that doesn't mean it isn't fact. It has nothing to do with critical mass either; it has to do with penetration of implementations. Even if Safari, Firefox and every KDE browser in existence got it native and assuming that everyone who could upgrade did upgrade--it would still represent a marginal user base compared to the countless IE browsers in-use and without the plugin. Rembmbe
        • I disagree--I think the GP got it right. If MS doesn't support it natively, it is not mainstream. Period. It may suck hard, but that doesn't mean it isn't fact.

          And just because it "may suck hard" doesn't make it fact, either.

          MS doesn't support Java, Real, QuickTime, zip (maybe they do finally in XP?), flash, blah, blah, blah, either. But they are all "mainstream".

          Your definition of "mainstream" is flawed. It's that it has to be natively supported by MS. That's clearly and obviously false. Just *one* exa
          • You don't seem to appreciate the fact that SVG is a web standard and for acceptance it requires native adoption in a web browser. That means IE. Period.

            Your example also proves the point: iPod is mainstream just because it is BY FAR the dominant player in the industry. Just as IE is in the browser world. You recognize that as true, yes?

            BTW, I never said that any technology not natively implemented by MS is not mainstream -- nice try at putting words in my mouth. I was talking about the specific case of SV
            • BTW, I never said that any technology not natively implemented by MS is not mainstream -- nice try at putting words in my mouth.

              "I disagree--I think the GP got it right. If MS doesn't support it natively, it is not mainstream. Period."

              You don't seem to appreciate the fact that SVG is a web standard and for acceptance it requires native adoption in a web browser. That means IE. Period.

              You're wrong. Period. SVG can become mainstream without native support in IE. Period. You seem to think that if you s

            • Mainstream != dominate.
              Is Chrylser ad main stream car company even if Ford is bigger?

              Mainstream just means common. Yes the iPod is mainstream as are many other MP3 players.
              Firefox is now a mainstream browser.
              • Mainly true, but I refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstream [wikipedia.org] where 'mainstream' is described as the antithesis of 'individuality'. Under that definition, we can discern 'alternative' from 'mainstream' and I would suggest that Firefox remains an alternative browser while iPod is certainly a mainstream MP3 player. 'mainstream' is a rather soft term and I'm afraid it greatly hurt this discussion. Never-the-less, when applied to a technology as opposed to an item from popular culture one needs discer

        • Re:It's Apple. It's not mainstream. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by jazuki ( 70860 ) on Sunday July 10, 2005 @08:18PM (#13029319) Homepage
          If MS doesn't support it natively, it is not mainstream.

          So I wonder when PDF is going mainstream.
          • Think harder homer. When PDF hit the world, there was no CSS, no HTML, nothing in fact, except for proprietary page layout software and word processors. It filled a gap that others still have a hard time filling because it did it so well. On the other hand, one has to wonder if it would have the same impact if it was released today rather than back when. Indeed, who can offer an alternative to PDF at this point? Microsoft is about to try -- and considering their weight, they actually have a chance. Otherwis

            • Re:It's Apple. It's not mainstream. (Score:4, Interesting)

              by node 3 ( 115640 ) on Sunday July 10, 2005 @09:14PM (#13029647)
              You're being foolish--the question at hand is whether something must be supported natively by MS to become a standard.

              This is clearly and obviously not true.

              If SVG is different, and that it *does* need such support, it's up to you to explain why.

              Think harder homer. When PDF hit the world, there was no CSS, no HTML, nothing in fact, except for proprietary page layout software and word processors.

              You are absolutely wrong, and clearly have a limited understanding of the subject. You're thinking of PostScript.

              As we already know, there are plugins for SVG for almost every browser on every platform yet it is decidedly not mainstream yet.

              But something has changed--Apple is going to support SVG. If this comes to pass, there will be more SVG content on the web. It's possible (but not certain) that the sites that add SVG content will be enough to get Windows users to click the "get plugin" button. Also, I believe, Firefox has, or will have, native support for SVG built-in as well.

              SVG needs IE adoption for success as does every web standard.

              Like PDF, Real, QuickTime, Java, etc?

              To say otherwise is to support a rather uncommon view of the word "mainstream".

              You're the one with the flawed definition. Mainstream means it's in the common public realm. Firefox *is* mainstream, for example. Mainstream does not mean everyone uses it, or even that a majority of the populace uses it. Rap, for example, is mainstream, but that doesn't mean everyone listens to it. DVD's and CD's were mainstream long before the majority of content was sold in those formats.

              In the end, you might be right that Apple adopting SVG won't be enough to take SVG mainstream, but there are just far too many examples of web technologies that have become mainstream without direct support in IE to take your argument seriously.
      • You make a good point, and I'm not as familiar with SVG as you. Maybe I should refine my point to be, "if it's not built in to the browser with the largest marketshare (Internet Explorer), it's not mainstream."
        • You make a good point, and I'm not as familiar with SVG as you. Maybe I should refine my point to be, "if it's not built in to the browser with the largest marketshare (Internet Explorer), it's not mainstream."

          That still fails to stand up to scrutiny. Java, Real, QuickTime, flash, etc, are all "mainstream" and none are built into MSIE.

          Ad blocking, anti-spyware, anti-virus, are all mainstream and were before MS got (or announced getting) into those realms.

          Mainstream just means it's legitimately in the co

          • Re:It's Apple. It's not mainstream. (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Bulln-Bulln ( 659072 ) <bulln-bulln@netscape.net> on Sunday July 10, 2005 @07:56PM (#13029184)
            Java, Real, QuickTime, flash, etc, are all "mainstream" and none are built into MSIE.

            MS did their own Java. It was bundled since IE4, got kicked with WinXP, was bundled again with WinXP-SP1 and was kicked out again with WinXP-SP1a.

            MS once licensed the RealPlayer. IIRC it was during Win95 or Win98.

            MS licensed QT (the file format). WMP can still play old (pre-Sorenson codec) QT movies.

            MS have licensed Flash. It's bundled with every Windows release since Win98 or something.

            Not all of these products are still bundled with Windows/IE, but they were in the past. It surely helped their adoption.
            • Not all of these products are still bundled with Windows/IE, but they were in the past. It surely helped their adoption.

              Doesn't matter. Your claim was, "if it's not built in to the browser with the largest marketshare (Internet Explorer), it's not mainstream." Not that "being supported by MS helps make something mainstream". That's obvious. Just like being supported by Apple helps make something mainstream. Being supported by Apple is not critical, neither is being supported by MS.

              Some of your general po
  • I bet the KDE people are big KMFDM [kmfdm.net] fans. They seem to use the same naming schema after all.

  • Without Adobe's support? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by BadMrMojo ( 767184 ) on Sunday July 10, 2005 @08:23PM (#13029349)
    Now that Adobe has bought out Macromedia (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/18/13552 33&tid=98 [slashdot.org]), I'd be surprised to see them helping push SVG any more.

    As much as I'd love to be proven wrong, I think SVG headed for historical footnote status in the very near future.
    • > I think SVG headed for historical footnote status
      > in the very near future.

      I am inclined to think not. Many of the better diagramming and modeling tools out there now support it. Even Visio exports to SVG. (Yes, it's a typical-of-Microsoft, b0rked-with-binary-crap version of SVG, but it's there.)

      There are lots of other places to use SVG besides on the Web.

      As for Adobe, I think the point of the article is that their plugin (which works fine for MSIE) is becoming increasingly irrelevant in any case
      • I'm just not sure who's going to step up and get people to use it. Most people won't just use a format because it's particularly better or worse than any other - look at how long Real's been around. They need a good reason and that reason only comes with lots of solid backing from some deep pockets.

        Who is it going to be now that Adobe's got Flash? I still think that SVG will be the first victim of the buyout.
        • Buy out what? SVG is a W3C standard. Can one buy out HTML and XML as well? No.
          • Buy out what? SVG is a W3C standard. Can one buy out HTML and XML as well? No.

            I never said anyone was going to buy out the standard. As you pointed out, that's silly.

            There are plenty of standards which never took off because they didn't have support, however. If Adobe intentionally lets their SVG plugin languish in obscurity while pushing developers to support their latest and greatest flash plugin, who is going to take up the torch for SVG? The standard is still there and entirely open, but who is goi

      • SVG used in other places. (Score:2, Interesting)

        by torpor ( 458 )
        There are lots of other places to use SVG besides on the Web.

        I count 15 SVG-capable Cell Phones at my local cell-mart, actually.

        It seems to me, if Desktop computers don't implement SVG, they're going to be eaten alive by the Cell Phone Giant.
    • Adobe does include support for SVG in Illustrator and their SVG plugin has magically appeared in my Add/Remove Programs window. Seems to me they want to push this standard, and I could see the Flash plugin and dev environment including support for it within the next version or two.
      • The reason they have been pushing it is exactly because they didn't own Flash. Now that they do, do you still think they're going to push it? Or are they going to push their own new proprietary format with a much larger user base for which they paid $3.4 billion?

  • SVG (Score:1)

    by mdew ( 651926 )
    its great to see support for SVG finally taking shape, Firefox 1.1, Opera, and possibly Konq and Safari. Now if only microsoft would support it...
    • its great to see support for SVG finally taking shape, Firefox 1.1, Opera, and possibly Konq and Safari. Now if only microsoft would support it...

      At MS's rate, they will have it in IE8, perhaps in 2010. Maybe.
    • Well, maybe I can actually start using SVG Graphs in webpages without having to install that dumb plugin (the plugin doesn't work out of the box with Firefox, you have to move files around).

      SVG Graphs with PHP [techrageo.us]
  • Does this all mean that SVG will now go mainstream, finally?"

    Sure! And then we might all finally learn what SVG stands for.

  • Native support for SVG in two popular browsers (Firefox and Safari) would be great. Hopefully the two (three?) development camps - Mozilla, WebCore/KDE - will be able to keep their DOMS, JavaScript interactions, and other related SVG things compatible.

    - Jasen.

  • Correction (Score:3, Informative)

    by fdobbie ( 226067 ) on Monday July 11, 2005 @12:36PM (#13033898) Homepage
    Eric Seidel is not an Apple WebCore engineer. From TFM:

    Disclaimer: Let me emphasize that at this time there is NO SVG
    support in Safari itself, nor has Apple (or myself) made any
    commitment to ship SVG support in Safari, now or in the future.
    However, with your help (the open source community) I would very much
    like to see full SVG integration in WebKit in the future.

    This means that there is experimental support in WebCore, and experimental support may be in WebKit in the future, should you want to roll your own. I wouldn't expect Apple to ship anything "experimental" in Safari, though.
  • SVG is all fine and good, but as others mention there is a commonly installed plugin for it. What I'd like to see is built in MathML support. Yeah it is for a smaller niche. But it would be very nice.

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